I’m a bit confused with this technique. if the breadboard domino mortises are done loose to allow for lateral expansion, and then you put in dowels with the same diameter in the domino tenon, are you not locking them into place so they are no longer able to move laterally?
After watching this I totally agree with you.The tenons are no longer floating when they are pinned to the breadboard with the dowel done in the manner this guy did it.
How do the pins work? Does the drill hole for the pin go all the way into the tenon, so that the pin goes all the way into the tenon? Wouldn't that have the same effect as gluing the tenon into the breadboard end, stopping them from moving as the tabletop expands? Or am I misunderstanding? (I ask because I intend to build a table with breadboard ends.)
Good stuff man! One more thing you need to do is widen the holes in the Dominos. Drill the holes, pull the breadboard off, then widen the holes with a drill or round file. Then reinstall the breadboard and glue the pins as you did.
the "theory" according to Spags is " Because the Dominos aren't very wide, I wasn't comfortable creating a wider slot for the dowel. The dowels themselves are quite thin and flexible so I don't think they'll have any trouble flexing under pressure. The weakest wood always looses." So the flex will come from the domino itself and the sloppy joint will allow it to move enough to not pop. Being a soft wood it wont move have as much movement as a hardwood either.
I can report back that the breadboards are still doing well, even after a move to Colorado so my "theory" holds up here. Not that I condone intentionally stressing parts like this, it did work in my case. Slotting the tenons is obviusly the best course of action but NOT slotting them isn't a garaunteed failure.
Seems to me like reclaimed wood with holes would certainly break before a domino hah, so I’m not so sure the weakest wood theory works in this case. I think slotting them even 1/32” wider on each side would not compromise the domino and at least alleviate a little bit of stress in the future
@@woodwhisperer its still not great design. having wiggle room in the dominoes is negated by the pins completely, so slots are an integral part of the design.
I'm surprised at the amount of flak John Maleki is catching about using a Festool product. There's nothing misleading in the title. The Domino XL makes breadboards "quick and easy" compared to other techniques. John runs a production shop so, while the Domino XL will cost you about $1400 new, that cost is quickly recouped in saved time. It's not lazy technique. It's just good business. In my 40 years of woodworking, I've learned a few ways to attach breadboards. I purchased a 700 last year and now it's the only way I do this although I use a draw bore technique to pull the breadboard tight to the table edge. That's the only difference between my technique and John's. I wonder if folks got this angry when table saws were invented?
Belated comment, but I must disagree. Not that the title isn't literally accurate, but saying things like "quick and easy" is meant to appeal to newbies. For more evidence, just look at the description. And that doesn't mean you need to accommodate a no-power tools approach, nor that it's wrong to show yourself using a festool. As you say, quick and easy doesn't mean cheap. But John should be more aware of the audience, and address the cost. He could say "I'm using festool, but you can use brand xyz instead." Good business for him festool may be, but it's bad video practice. And John's response that I replied to above had such snark and was extremely unprofessional of him. I think the flak is deserved.
@@woody350ep1 But even if they have $1400 (and I don't think that ancedote is worth much, it's uncommon surely), is it really a good idea for a newbie to drop that amount of money on the hobby in general right off the bat - let alone on a single tool? Nah, it's not. Maleki is being dumb here.
Hey John, if you allow for movement with the dominoes, why not allow for movement with the pins put into the dominoes? won't that just make the loose tenon tight again if you don't allow for pin movement?
But this is wrong :) It will work only if the holes in tenons have a "pill shape". In other words, the pin need space to move sideways. If you are drilling holes and put pins after board is glued, then it is just pointless, it will not work.
Yes. There has to be an elongated hole to allow the main table to expand and contract. Funny how he knows not to put glue, but it don't matter if there is no room for movement anyway.
Question (because I'm not scared to showcase my ignorance!): How does this technique control the cupping of the long boards? I mean, that is the actual purpose of a breadboard end--to help keep the table flat. Is the end piece on this particular table just for show without any true function? I'm lost.
Precisely what I was thinking while watching this. Personally I'm a Festool fan for most thing but not all. Dominos are great...................but at a bare minimum, I'd have installed no less that two dominos into each member of the table-top to prevent potential cupping later on.
@@jonh1808 I can see you don't have young children haha. I'm in the process of building a new table(hence the videos...) because my 2yo insists on dangling his full body weight from the corner of our glass table top. Every time I see someone building one of these with dominoes I'm very curious how much stress it can really take.
Why did you dowel the tenons? You defeated the whole point of having elongated mortises to allow for wood movement. Now the tenons are pinned to the boards which are glued in place on the table. You should have made elongated holes in the tenons to allow for lateral movement OR left the pins off entirely. I don't think they were necessary. You talked about a "rookie mistake" on the video., and this was a remake. I think you made another mistake on this one.... unless I'm missing sumthin?
The sloppiness in the mortise allows for the movement in the tenon. Theres like 1000 comments on this and conversations and debates. Check those out in the other comments for more info. Also read the article in the description I linked to!
For all of you that are making one table and don't want to pay 1k+ for a domino, I built the same style table using 3/4" dowels 2'' long. then pinned them with 1/4" dowels. This was 6yrs ago and the table is still perfect. I also made my own dowel jig with scrap wood and bushings just for this build for a few bucks for the bushings. Simple easy and very effective.
Great tip! this is an awesome example of what i was trying to do with this video. Show the concept and then let the user implement it in a way that works for them, Great stuff. Appreciate it !!
John, great video, but i am just a little confused. When you drill the hole for the pins, your going into the domino? So when you insert the pin it essentially will keep the domino from moving. How will the domino move side to side with expansion if its pinned tight? I will be using dowels, and trying to decide how best to pin the breadboard side. With a smaller dowel or sink a screw into it? Thanks,
Why does everyone hate Festool? I am no honk for any manufacturer, but the Domino is a solid tool. Nice work, I am now subscribed and look forward to seeing more of your work.
I find that many people are calling this Dominoe method of producing a Breadboard joint as an easy or trick method, should realize that this isn't a breadboard joint (or breadboard end) anymore. This is one reason it is easier since it isn't the joint anymore. This is a specific kind of joint and using dominoes has varied so far from this joint as to not be this joint anymore. I would also challenge those who think that it is, to consider if one made in the same way with dowels would still be a breadboard joint or if the dowels were totally eliminated and used a butt joint was still a breadboard end. It isn't the application of a board across the grain which produces this joint but the method of joinery, and the reason for doing this joinery in the first place.
Bro what happened to you. Lol. You look like you could block someone on this video. Now, your just blocking your arteries hahaha. All kidding I am just jealous. Keep up the good work
OK, people who go to RU-vid to learn how to do things or get an idea how to do it do not own big expensive tools what you are showing is for people that own these type of tools and if they do, you're not gonna be going to you to learn how to do it
Awesome work! Super helpful, thanks for posting! I’ve seen another technique where the pre-drilled holes in the tenon were set back slightly, I guess to pull everything tighter when the pin gets knocked in. Do you think that’s worthwhile?
Awesome job as always. How would I adjust with an even number of boards (4)? If I were to use 5 dominos the center domino would fall in between two joined boards. Or, could I simply use 4 dominos and not glue the center 2? Thanks again.
Sorry bro next time i'll be sure to use a hand powered drill and two rocks to make it more attainable to that 98% of woodworkers you speak of. Then again, you're a Philly fan so you probably only have one rock like only one super bowl, so i'll make sure to use only that next time. I'll call Jon before the build tho, to make sure i get approval from my Big Bro!
@@John_Malecki Or you could just mention The Wood Whisper again you seem to have that name on repeat. You probably built that bench you sat on when you played football since you felt the need to bring that into play or in you cause not in play.
John, you need to change the title of the video to "Create Woodworking Breadboard Ends Quick, Easy and Expensive". It wouldn't be so misleading. Easy implies that you do not require any fancy tools to do it. Your technique is very good though.
I am a fan of the Domino. And I think what a lot of folks fail to realize is that opinions are like ass holes. Everybody has one. Some just talk louder and out of turn. Nice Job.
This method of attaching breadboard ends is absolutely the correct way because it allows for expansion of the wood, which prevents the wood cracking in the future -- which prevents you from having to replace the top for the customer at your own expense in the future. However, I hesitate to invest a lot of money in the Festool because the Festool is pretty much a one-trick-pony, isn't it?
Maybe I'm thinking about this wrong, but don't the pins lock the whole thing in place? If you don't drill the holes in the BB end of the dominoes before installing the BB end and elongate them, aren't you locking them in place when you drive the dowel in?
I was thinking the same... To me it looks like everything is snug even though its not glued into the breadboard there is still no room to move. Correct me if Im wrong but normally the tenon is slightly smaller than the female socket and also has an elongated hole to allow the pin to move side to side in the tenon. While also holding the breadboard tight to the end. However if the table is going to be in a conditioned space. It probably wont move all that much anyway.
loved the video, loved the technique. I have several Festool pieces and I like them all... that being said I do always look for other ways to accomplish things before jumping into a big purchase ... $1500 for this tool is huge. After watching your video I thought a bit about how else I could do this and came across a doweling jig from a well know online company that offers 1/2", 3/8" and 1/4" dowel drilling options and it occured that this would do basically the same thing. I could have made the jig but for $29 bucks I can get one made from hardened Steel. So I thought it was worth a shot. Your video helped me get there.... so thumbs up! Can't get my head around people who poo poo Festool just because... or for some bogus reason. Your results over time speak for themselves. A+ (And for the record I was born before 1970 :)
Yea people hate on festool only when they dont have any haha. Who wouldnt want to drive a ferarri every day if they could? When you're doing custom work and need to work fast, the domino is a no brainer. But i do understand its a tough pill to swallow for the hobbiest
Thank you for your tutorial, it was very helpful. I really like the wider thicker dominoes and pegs you used! Don't the dominoes need widened holes drilled in them to allow movement before the pegs are inserted? I'm still learning, but I've seen this done in other videos.
How far do you drill into the tenon for the "pin" insert? Do you drill through it being careful not to go through the other side of the breadboard, or not drill completely through the tenon? Also, will this joinery method hold up if somebody were to lift the table up by the end?
Been binge listening to you and Brad on the MFP podcast and I have learned soooo much about turning a Hobby into a business. Thank you and Brad for being so awesome!
Great video! So many festool haters. My biggest issue that I always run into it getting the 2 surfaces completely flush (breadboard end and the table top end) Any tips on how to cut these straight if you don't have a tracksaw?
John Malecki I normally do but I seem to always get some variation in the cut. Maybe I'm just too anal but I get about a 1/32 gap somewhere along the board
Think you got it backwards my friend, no glue on the outside tenons as they expand from the center. check out this blog for why it works www.thewoodwhisperer.com/videos/the-not-so-rustic-rustic-outdoor-table-part-2/
So just so I am clear.... (For example sake) if i had three spot where I was putting dominos it would be 1. Table Loose Glue Breadboard Loose 2. Table Tight Glue Breadboard Tight Glue 3. Table Loose Glue Breadboard Loose. Then peg them all!! Also.... I know I am two years behind but I am so triggered that you didn't put Festool Domino in your title; I am going to my safe space after this.
Just happy someone is putting bread boards on without using glue & pocket hole screws all the way across the table. No I am not joking. Great job & video. I will be making my first Farm house table with breadboards this summer for a wedding. Being my first bead board table, I am going to first make a practices table out of 2" X 12" X 7' boards & 4" X 4" "H" frame legs, I up cycled from a large shipping create. If the practices table works well, then the bride can use it as a picnic table.
I am building a 6 foot walnut dining table and will breadboard each end. I will probably make the table extend to add an 18" leaf and I would then also breadboard each seam where the table extends apart to help make sure alignment pins register over time. The top will only be 3/4" or slightly thicker. Would a Domino 500, which has thinner tenons, work or would the 700 XL and its thicker tenons work better? Also, the longest pre-made Domino 500 tenon seems to be just under 2". That leaves little room to add the pin dowels on the breadboard side. My thinking has been that the 700 XL would help with this issue, too, since you can get longer tenons and they are thicker. One final question: since the outer tenons are not glued on the breadboard side, would drawboring the Domino tenon pin dowels be wise to draw the breadboard tight to the top and keep it tight?
I made a dining room table without doing proper research on breadboards.... now I know and want to fix my breadboards before they crack my table. I have to rent my tools though as I don't have everything I need.... all that being said...I want to follow what you did here, but I don't understand the pins... like at all, can you explain that to me in great detail? haha.
Kind of late to the party, but here are my thoughts. I dont have Festool tools, and do not plan on owning any anytime soon. That being said. several people are making very nice, high quality work with them. They do have their place in furniture making. As to the breadboard, I do not see where a single tenon in the center of each plank is going to keep the main boards from cupping over time. one of the main components in the breadboard design is the addition of a tongue and groove as well as the tenons. The tongue and groove that goes the entire width of the table top is what keeps the individual boards from cupping. The way you are showing it here the plank centers will remain in plane with the breadboard. However with out the T&G the joints of the planks will most likely come out of plane. Now on to the pegs, traditionally the breadboards were secured with draw bored tenons. I would be curious to see how well your 1/2" long 3/8" soft maple dowels with only a mere touch of glue hold up.
Seems most of you missed the change John made to the domino machine to cut a wider (sloppy) mortice that allows a sloppy fit to the tennon in the breadboard end but only in the horizontal direction, so that will allow for expansion and contraction. The pins into those tenons need to be as far out away from the end of the main table top so the tenon can basically flex to accommodate the expansion or contraction to the table top.
This is the correct. The flexibility in the domino will allow for movement in theory. I havent had issues yet, and as i stated, if Spags uses it, the theory is sound.
Yes the breadboard end has larger mortises but the dowel locks the tenon into one position in that enlarged mortise, defeating its purpose. In reality of course the tenon in the enlarged hole is not moving very much so it may not matter.
Love the video brother, simple and easy tutorial.. I love the way you glued up the pins as well. Question, what are the dimensions of your breadboard in relation to your table top boards? And, was that a 12 millimeter bit you were using?
Fair comment about it being simple if you have a Domino, but similarly you could use regular dowels and a jig and make the loose holes with a slightly larger drill bit or sanded down dowels. A bit more extra work as less surface area for the pins, but achievable. Great tutorial video John. Thank you. 👍
I would suggest some sort of flat tenon for the application. There are tons of floating tenon tutorials around the web. But I would for sure suggest using something flat so the movement is across the width.
I was referred to this video by my buddy, Tim Woodward of Woodward Builds. He just finished up his table and he used dowels in place of a domino. Which is what I'm going to be using for the top that I'm building. From what I've seen and read in the comments from Marc Spagnoulo, the holes don't need to be elongated in the dowels in the breadboard. Thanks for showing this method John.
If I am building a table out of 2" x 6" boards for both the main body and the breadboard ends, do I need the XL domino or do you think it can work fine with the regular 500 domino?
John Malecki Thanks big cat! I will send you a picture when I have it complete. I’m not sure why there are so many negative posts about Festool. The domino seems like an incredible tool for joinery.
I think if you were clever and made your own solid wood biscuits...perhaps. But they lack the length of dominoes or even dowels. Last time I did such and breadboard end I just used long screws and elongated holes.
quick and easy doesnt always mean quality and long lasting. I cant stand the lack of talent and skill that has taken over the woodworking community. Dominos are not a quality tenon, it doesnt allow for proper wood expansion. this is a typical millennials attempt at making money on the interwebs.
So, just an FYI Mr. High and Mighty. Dominoes are solid wood, so if solid wood tenons aren't "quality" then please enlighten me to what is so i can make my work better. Also, its now been years and this table has had zero issues with expansion and contraction in regards to seasonal movement. And is also located in the north east where we have real seasonal changes. Here is an article on why the breadboard ends with the Domino work. incase my "millennial" opinions are still not good enough for you. www.thewoodwhisperer.com/videos/the-not-so-rustic-rustic-outdoor-table-part-2/ Thanks again for checking out the video!
Wow someone doesnt take well to criticism. A true tenon is the strongest route, you know the kind that is actually part of the main table and not some tiny piece of beech wood shoved into a hole. A true tenon also takes skill to do and isnt quick and easy, but thats probably why you used the dominoes. hahahah @ the woodwhisperer .
I embrace constructive criticism, it's how we all get better. I don't believe you're "criticizing" for the sake of improving community or trying to help. Just being your typical keyboard hero, and trying to throw insults around because you're single minded in your belief. I am well aware an integral tenon is the "strongest route", but doesn't mean it's the only route. With client builds, time plays a factor into the final price of the piece. Integral tenons take longer, therefore cost more. Also, the dominoes aren't tiny, they're 140mm x 12mm, and lastly this table is made from reclaimed Pine, the Beech is harder than the wood in the table itself. So with the long grain on long grain glue up of the tenon into the main table frame, the tenon is actually plenty strong for this application. Once again, I appreciate your time and well thought out responses.
Are the tenon's shorter than the mortise on the breadboard? Seems like that is key. Because the tenon can pivot on the pin and has room side to side to pivot, but if there's no room behind the tenon, the breadboard will be forced to separate or the pin to bend (the weakest connection). If the tenon is left wiggle room to pivot on the pin, you could set the pin straight through. Then when the table expands, the breadboard to table joint will pull tighter.
it takes care of the mortis and the tenon. your video title leads people to believe that you have a tip for doing something. I'm in the middle of a farm style table right now. your probley banging out projects left and right. making bank. If that is the case then you need to slam them out as fast as possible. your title should just say how to make bread board ends with a domino.
You can do the same thing with a router and a mortising jig. This is probably the way he should have demoed it being done, given that his target audience is RU-vid and not a festool convention. This comes off as, "check out this super simple technique that only requires a $1500 biscuit jointer"
@@John_MaleckiThanks for clarifying. Nice job on the table man! We have used the floating tenon method before and used plywood for the tenons. I went back old school and do a traditional breadboard on all tables now. I work with antique lumber frequently. A lot of antique cypress looks similar. I am fixing to clean up some old heart pine joists for a project. Keep up the good work! "The Cajun Craftsman" Check this out: facebook.com/Donald.Thibodaux/media_set?set=a.10214405966850277&type=3
