@@razbuten With very good reason. Their decision to not give the player a "choice" like most games would was genius. It would make no sense whatsoever for Joel to do anything different than what he did, and it allowed for the moral ambiguity of his lie to Ellie and her "acceptance" of it.
Most of the soundtrack from that game gets me feeling... a mixture of sadness, nostalgia, loneliness, ... actually I have no idea, there is too much there for me to sum up with words.
Honestly I like to think of Elizabeth's friendliness as tied to her reading. Her attempts to emulate the scenarios that bubble in her mind akin to those in the stories she reads, like how she longs for Paris: A place that she knows from books. Honestly, I thought it made sense for her to be so carelessly optimistic because of what I mentioned. And her mannerisms, I didn't expect her to act like others at all, because of her isolated upbringing. I would honestly find it weird if she were. A person holed up in a tower all their life would not act like an era-appropriate normal person. Her roguish nature works as she does not know what people would act like. As mentioned, she does not know other people, hence would not be like one. Well, this is from my opinion.
I agree. Given she was raised consuming the media of the time, romanticizing so many aspects of life, it makes sense that she shares that same sense of wonder and optimism when she is exposed to the real world. It does erode into a sense of maturity throughout the game but her behavior never struck me as "out of character". She's basically a dystopian Rapunzel and is all the more relatable for it.
I always likened it to something that I did myself growing up. Now, I wasn't isolated in a tower away from people, but my family itself was pretty... sparse. At glance, it's all normal -- mom, dad, brothers and sisters in middle class US -- but dad was away for work most of the week and mom worked nights. Siblings are all vastly older than me and moved out early mostly. And peer-wise, while I had friends, I never have felt comfortable with people. What I did love were sit-coms from Full House and The Cosby Show to Cheers and Night Court, so I gleaned a lot of what I thought society was like from TV (part of the reason I adore The Cable Guy) which lead to many naive moments and sometimes still creates confusion between those early-learned lessons and stark reality. Back to Bioshock, I always assumed that's where this came from for her. She was an observer through tears and books of the things that she loved and wanted to love while faced with startling loneliness, so she wasn't afraid of people. She was pulled to them like a magnet because as far as she could tell the world was much more romantic than the life she'd experienced. That hers was the very minor exception to the rule. Isolation from family didn't make me scared of families. In fact, it made me envious and deeply desire a family of my own to the point where love and companionship were my ultimate obsessive goal, ignoring essentials like actually enjoying the person. There was a lot of pain to get past that to learn to learn about the people I choose to have in my life. Likewise, Elizabeth's isolation didn't create a distaste for others but elevated them beyond what they could be in real life and led her to find out just how much of the world is in pain around her and how much of that romanticized world was written in hope and longing rather than an actual reflection of life.
Gergely Takács yes, it’s an interesting concept to have the companion become the villain, and the villain become the companion. Both are amazing characters.
Being honest,They both have been your companion through out the whole game. Like,even when they are tryna kill ya,they are simultaneously being your fren
Midna from The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess is probably my favorite commission character. Cute in a grotesque kind of way, a powerful aid in battle (in both gameplay and story), intrinsic to the plot, and had genuine character development causing her to go from a bitter and snarky imp that is basically extorting your aid for her own goals into a genuinely loyal companion who is fighting to save Link's world as much as her own by the end.
There’s an admirable sincerity in her mischief and self interest, and even though you’re never sure she has your well being in mind she doesn’t actively harm you. I really enjoyed spending time with that character
But... She's not dragonborn She can't _slay_ dragons, not permanently Dragonborn, i think you need to lay off the sweet rolls and get back in the business of ruining everyone's kneecaps yourself
I remember making choices based on how the characters in my party felt in Dragon Age more than how I felt about the choice because I valued the opinion of my party than my own personal feelings
I never understand the things people critic about Bioshock. Like it's far from being a perfect game, but Elizabeth's character is so good. It's clear that being alone in a tower made her eager to learn about the world, and that's why she's so outgoing. She's like a child marveling at how vast the world is. She had no reason not to trust people because she's never experienced evil. Everything and everyone is interesting to her. Anyway, great video buddy!
TLOU is gritty & grounded while Infinite is operating on dream logic. Comparing modern teenager Ellie to Cloud Princess Elizabeth is just moronic. This was a *shallow* video.
I think people just disliked the game especially in comparison to the older games. Older games were simple political commentary and horror. Infinite was just trying too hard to be big brain with a lazy end
McSnezzly True, I didn't like Infinite that much, it was just okay to good for me. Still, that doesn't make Elizabeth a bad companion and the game still had some nice parts. People are too biased sometimes to make a fair analysis.
I like to think that a lot of Elizabeth’s bubbly personality comes from stories about chivalrous and charismatic heroes in the face of obvious evil. She’s really trusting and happy because she just wants to soak in the real world and make up for her lost time in the tower. For me this also made her seem so strong willed and positive that she could be so happy after all that; which just made me super sad for her near the end of the game when she was becoming more cynical. Really lets the player get some perspective on how much you’ve gone through together.
I'd say that is a fair assessment. Like, I don't think it would be impossible for someone to turn out like Elizabeth in that situation. However, 99/100 they would have severe psychological trauma from the isolation. But yeah, her turning out sort of normal would indicate her strong will.
Elizabeth wasn't always alone in the tower. She had Songbird wich at the start of the story wasn't only a guard. Also when she was younger she was also stronger. She actually leaved the Tower by going trough portals. By the way TLOU's AI isn't actually good if you ever watched the Speed Runs of Anthony Caliber. He played TLOU on stream for years and AI companion are kinda dumb and just bad. Their weapons do less damage, they get in your way, they body block you and most of the time they do nothing. They also can't be as fast as you and they can litterally get stucked or glitch/crash the game. Elizabeth actually sticks to cover out of your way and she helps you by giving you salts, ammo, health and money. She can also open locked doors and she doesn't get bugged. Plus she is just good to look at and listen her lines.
Dragon Age has fabulous companions, every game I always really like at least one in DAO probably Sten was my fave, but Alistair is hilarious - I wish he'd had a bigger part in the novels because the Cameos in game just didn't do him justice.
Ashley is not a bad companion. She is suppose to be annoying to protect and clumsy. She is the presidents daughter a super sheltered self absorbed idiot. The game knows this and used her to make you feel frantic whenever she was around. Leon tells her to get in bins all the time because he knows she is useless to him. So she might as well hide to not get in the way. Her constantly yelling for Leon is pretty appropriate considering she probably has never seen a zombie let alone be kidnapped by crazy people. Ashley is a perfect representation of a rich white girl who has never been in danger all of sudden getting thrust into a zombie apocalypse. Her character also reinforces Leon’s cause he never quips at her that she is annoying or dumb. Showing that Leon understands the she is completely out of depth in the situation they are in. Just because you find the gameplay sections with her annoying or hard doesn’t make her a bad companion.
Just to be clear, if I made it sound like Ashley was a bad companion, that was not my intention. Ashley is pretty interesting in a lot of ways, but as you’ve mentioned, she is annoying and frustrating. The focus of this video is on how likable a companion is, and in my opinion, Ashley is not that likable (which is why it is awesome when Leon dunks on her at the end). But that does not mean I think she is inherently bad. Ashley is an awesome and well-written character who I dislike. Glad she is a character in that game because as you pointed out, it makes Leon more interesting, but as I am focused on positive emotional connections in this video, Ashley is faaaaar from that.
Thanks for clearing that up. I hundred percent agree with you. It’s just so many people just she her as a bad character as a whole which she isn’t. Like you said a well written character that you’re meant to dislike. Also love the end. Leon’s face is like bitch please.
@@razbuten Glad you responded I know Ashley isn't super likeable but likeable=good in games, as they are often seen as dead weight, ironically the goal in RE 4.
Missed opportunity is (Valve's Portal) Companion Cube. It is such a simplistic example of gameplay mechanics, stripped from extra factors, that already causes the beginning of strong bonding. It's a very first step, the basics of what an ingame entity needs to gain empathy from a player.
I like companions from Dragon Age series. They always feel so alive just casually talking to each other and pc during your travels. Its cool how you get more and more attached to them as you play.
“Physical attraction also plays into this...” Is talking about Eleanor and Ellie, both very young daughter figures, the latter of which is a 14yo girl KIRBYS CALLING THE POLICE
"physical attractiveness" doesn't have to mean the speaker is sexually attracted to the character. Sexiness is only one kind of beauty, and neither of these characters is sexy. All it means is that the player won't get tired of looking at these characters. The girl in Ico is another good example of that. Not sexy, but just nice to look at.
@ May I suggest phrasing that 'Aesthetic Attraction', instead? The term "physical attraction" is muddy. While it could mean looking at the physical, it could also mean feeling physically an attraction. People often (really really often) use the term 'physical attraction' in things like romance novels to describe specifically lust. Being that is decidedly Not an implication you want about a teenager... Better to say Aesthetic, which is all about visual aspects, and is also the word Asexual folks use to describe appreciating beauty without 'PantsFeels'.
I always wanted video games companions to act as ur protector instead of you protecting them And their power doesnt come from being overpowered in damage and health, but that they know and understand a game's mechanics inside and out and they are simply better than you when you first play that game I think that connection would be very profound You both faced the same problem of facing a difficult enemy and having him teach you. Imagine the trauma you'll feel if that companion died third way into the game's story. And when you face a tough opponent and ur companion is nowhere to be seen Kind of like the feeling of loss we face in real life when someone dies
@@hayk3000 it could if done poorly. But I think a good way to approach it would be to have the companion have avastly different playstyle than you while still adhering to the same core mechanics. Also the first guy mentioned losing them, but imagine how tense a betrayal would be. Having a boss fight ½ or ⅔ of the way into the game against the character who has been noth the protagonist and the player's mentor would be epic.
@@X-35173 yeah I agree. Now I think that the fact it goes against the concept of a traditional videogame makes it more unique and interesting. Although I think death of a mentor is a more powerful feeling than betrayal, and a more relatable one.
I've been making some prototypes lately. I think this is a very interesting dynamic to explore. Perhaps the companion engages in combat and you play exclusively by supporting them through another mechanic (stealth, puzzle, etc.)
dude that end, brings back flashbacks to me feeling empty inside after completing the game. not a bad empty, but empty bcuz I didnt feel the same way I had before playing. it was, dare I say, a life changing experience
Great topic! Just found and subbed your awesome channel earlier today. So, catching up on earlier vids now. Thank you! This topic brings to mind my favorite followers, which are many. Yet, narrowing the list to a top 4... Serana is my favorite vanilla follower in all the games I play. Expert voice acting that is unique to only Serana is a cut above all other Skyrim followers as most of the vanilla voice actors performed upwards of 50 character voices each! IMHO that is far too many characters per actor. It gets to where each time I hear the same voice I have a mental image of nearly every other character that shares the same voice. Hi Lydia, uh, Annekke, uh, Illia, uh who are you this time? This makes each one of the shared voice characters just that much less unique and even boring at times. This dampens my immersion level. Serana, on the other hand, has one voice, one actor, one character, totally unique with a lot of great dialogue including options to completely fail her as well as be her champion. Besides, Laura Bailey is amazing. :) The remaining three are from mods. Inigo in Skyrim by the one and only SmartBlueCat, Willow in New Vegas and Heather Casdin in Fallout 4 both by the amazing llamaRCA. Willow and Heather are both voiced by an outstanding actor who is still anonymous even after many hours of research. She is brilliant none the less. To me, Inigo is perhaps the best companion npc ever created for a game. Through extensive and immersive, often humorous dialogue Inigo is more like travelling with a friend IRL than a gaming follower. He has a decent quest line but even without that element he is just a joy to have around, much like a true friend. Willow and Heather both by llamaRCA are the only two additional follower npc's that can compete with Inigo IMHO. They each have exceptional quality dialogue in good quantity and immersive quests to uncover during your travels. Willow and Inigo hit a similar mark with their quests in quality and game play time required to uncover and complete them. Inigo leads the pack in terms of unique dialogue as you seldom hear the same line twice, even after months of in game time with him. The quests are where Heather steps in front of the rest. It took me over a month of game play to uncover and complete all of Heather's quests. I have completed every one at least three times each now and I still enjoy having her around. I tend to run with lovely female companions most often, near exclusively in Skyrim with Inigo the sole exception. It is difficult to pick a 'winner' or top favorite. Serana wins for vanilla, Inigo for diverse and unique dialogue and Heather for quests as well as dialogue. Yet, if we look at total game play only Heather and Dogmeat have the distinction of NEVER leaving my players company unless they are prohibited from following into an area I must enter, like the Institute. So, for those reasons Heather Casdin is leading the pack. I did not include pets in this list per se or Dogmeat would easily round out my top 5. He doesn't have any dialogue. But, he says a lot with just a look and none are more loyal. Love the channel! Looking forward to more great content in future videos and though catching up on prior releases. Your adoring commentary regarding Elizabeth makes me want to play Bioshock. So, thank you for a great into to her character and that game.
Whilst Elizabeth is perhaps a little superficial in her personality, I feel as if it was a design choice. The scope of Bioshock Infinite is arguably broader and more complex with it's focus on morality and multiverse theory. The game centres on Elizabeth but not in the same way The Last Of Us does on Ellie perhaps that's why there is the added depth although I found I deeply cared about both characters. (This is just an idea, I'm curious as to what others think.)
People like Ellie because she's realistic, but... Realistic =/= Good. Razbuten's video is very *shallow* because he conveniently ignores the tone the story's going for. TLOU is gritty, nihilistic..while Infinite is operating on dream logic. Why would anyone compare Ellie to Cloud City Princess (aka Elizabeth) when Clementine's clearly more similar to Ellie...?
@@paradoxacres1063 - He didn't compare them. He used to different examples of great companions. He applauds them both. It was intentional to pick two different personalities because that shows the dynamic of characters while still being great. He wasn't saying one was bad while the other was good. The only bad example (that I remember) that he used was Ashley from Resident Evil.
Paradox Acres well yeah it’s the breakdown of civilization with infected people who go insane with fungi growing on they head not gonna be too ecstatic and joyful but at the end they find civilization again with Jackson and the second game Jackson be like an average American city.
Someone else that fits this Hugo from A Plague Tale: Innocence He’s been locked away for all of his life due to a disease he has and he’s only 5 years old His desires are being out on the world and seeing his mother again and protecting his sister Amicia. His flaws are that he’s 5. He’s quick to anger and incredibly nieve. He tends to frighten easily and not know when to take things seriously. The redeemable aspects: Very early on in the game he saves you by pointing out certain things that you need, coming up with ideas, sneaking through small places to open locked doors, distracting guards, etc. When you more deprecated from him there is nothing more important than finding him. The scariest scenes in the game happen without him because Amicia isn’t concerned with preserving his innocence and continues the most efficient way rather than the least emotionally traumatising way. It makes you care for him and worry about him. And spoilers for the late game now When they get separated the sequence is a blur of reality and imagination. As you watch him be taken away you don’t know what’s real and what’s fake because Amicia (and the player) is sick with worry and can’t even focus. And when you play as Hugo in the late game and are separated from Amicia you feel incredibly vulnerable. Like you no longer have your guardian angel. And then all you want is to hide and wait for her to come find you. In conclusion you love him and hate him. He’s incredibly powerful by the end of the game but he’s still just a child who’s lost.
Your point about finishing games with companions makes so much sense now that I think about it, almost all the games that I have finished were heavily centred around companions or player to npc interactions (mass effect, dragon age, fallout 4/nv, bioshock infinite, knights of the old republic). Even games that don’t focus on characters as much, if I fall in love with one of them I will centre my love of the game around said character
That is true. All games I like have great ore at least good companions. To name a few examples Okami has Issun, Persona 5 has all the Confidants (I love Morgana and the twins),Kid Icarus Uprisng has Palutena and Viridi. But I found myself unable to play games that dont have likeable companions. Examples being Pokemon Soule Silver, and Shin Magami Tensei Strange Journey. In this games you only have those boring collectable monsters as companions. I often put them down after a few hours.
Shit man, your videos are just getting better. Thoroughly enjoyed this one, in particular; insightful stuff. Glad Ellie was one of your prime examples, she is, to this day my favorite companion. I enjoyed all the small talk and her random jokes that she'd prompt at random. Can't wait for your next work, keep it up.
ellie was one of the best game companions i ever had, she was just so memorable to me that I genuinely felt that I'd go to the ends of the Earth with Ellie to find the cure
The way I consider if a companion was done well in my eyes is if they get thrown into a large amount of danger, if I say "No! Don't you kill this character, developer! Don't do it!"
I’ve played a decent number of games, but the only game I remember ever finishing was the last of us. It was really entertaining and enjoyable in a way that didn’t get tiring or boring over the course of the play through. That and the amazingly real characters and dialogue made me so happy and excited to keep playing
The dream team back at it again with another fantastic video, selling me on these games like a fine advert. I haven't played either game you talked about, but now they're both up a few pegs in my never-ending queue.
I strongly disagree with you on Ashley. I really don't get the hate. Her AI is good enough to the point where she never really gets in the way. And it forces you to be careful on where you place her and when she gets grabbed. You hide her in bins too. It's far more interesting than a companion who doesn't really exist. I do agree with you valuing characters over anything else in a story.
See, I just felt like I always dropped her into the dumpster, dealt with what was around me, and then pulled her out when the danger was over. I felt like that was the solution far too often.
You definitely have some quality stuff to say. Entertaining and informative. I appreciate the time you put into making this cohesive. The subscribers will come
Well shit,I haven't played any of these but the the videos I just watched of your's were so we'll made that I was left astonished. Your videos are professional quality and it really surprises me that your channel is so small. You have impressed me good sir.
For me the scariest moments were every time that I was separated from Ellie because I couldn’t stop panicking over the fact that my daughter was somewhere else and might be in danger
Your videos are incredibly well developed. You speak with remarkable prose, the ideas presented are thought-out, and the videos aren't plagued with filler or unaddressed bias. What drives you to create such phenomenal videos?
I appreciate all the kind words! I just like to write, and I have found that RU-vid has been a good avenue to do that. I am pushed to do better by all of my peers who are producing incredible work, and ultimately I try to write and make things that I would want to watch.
6:00 yeah, but the side character providing utility while posing no additional risk/need for care is... effective, but cheap, i'd say. it's more of a "smoke and mirrors" cheating, than a proper solution. in the same way as getting someone to like you because you're useful to them, and you get out of the way otherwise, having no needs or requirements related to them, is a cheap, cop-outy way of ensuring you're (somehow) liked in the real life. ideal would be a balance between the two. something like a reasonably competent teammate in multiplayer game, or a party member in CRPG, where the moments of them being useful to you, and of them needing protection/usefulness from you is balanced. but, well, what can we do, making pretty graphics takes up so much programming time and system resources that there's not enough left to code a reasonable AI...
I actually think that the new God of War does a decent (not amazing by any means) job with having a nearly invincible companion. There are some enemies who can grab Atreus, but more importantly, he can get hit and knocked out of the fight for a brief period of time, which limits the amount of stuff you can do for a brief period. This at least gives a small consequence for not protecting the boy, which I think is better than nothing.
" which I think is better than nothing." yes, I agree. but at the same time, it's still smoke and mirrors, as I said. same principle, only masked better. It's a move in the right direction, yes, but still not nearly enough to provide a real... i mean... the illusion of a real thing, instead of just illusion of an illusion of the real thing. I think you know what I mean, and we basically agree at this point, I just felt the need to write it out more than just "yes, I agree" :)
Is there anything wrong with it being cheap? The end user doesn't care how expensive it was to make, they just care about how effective it is, and as you said, it is effective.
Like you, I personally think they did an excellent job on creating Ellie as a likable character and companion that felt real. I adore that girl, and I like to think that if I was given a choice I would have made the same decision as Joel in the end.
Cool video, if you wanna watch something along the same lines from a developer perspective I recommend watching "Plot is dumb, character is cool" by Anthony Burch
My favorite companions: Atreus, from God of War 2018 Midna, from The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess The hat guy, from Super Mario Odyssey (for the sole purpose that the hat gameplay is fun) Joe, From Mafia II Sgt. Reznov, from Call of Duty: World at War
My favorite Companions: Morgana from Persona 5 Palutena and Viridi from Kid Icarus Uprising There are others I like but those are the ones I like ALOT. Madama Butterfly from Bayonetta is pretty cool too. She has not much personality but a helping fist is always nice.
I think Ellie and Elizabeth are not at the same level of likability at all. Ellie is much more likable as she has quite a noticeable presence and a personality during both, the cutscenes and the gameplay, whereas Elizabeth just becomes your resource collector once the cutscene ends.
Yeah, it's quite an unfair match-up. Ellie is one of the greatest acted and written characters in gaming history. On top of that, the way she is used in game, especially the chapters where you play Ellie and the prequel cement her as the soul of the game. Elizabeth isn't "bad", but I feel she's a microcosm of Bioshock: Infinite itself. It looks pretty but doesn't hold up under a microscope(textures were low-res and considerably dated even at launch). Still the creators worked around it to make a game many people enjoyed, no-one should expect it to stack up against a GOAT contender.
"Best looking games of all time" is a bit of a stretch. They had good art direction and wisely chose an artstyle that played to their strengths. But you seriously cannot argue that Infinite is anywhere near TLOU in terms of technical achievement. Maybe the PC release with an overhaul holds up better, but if we're talking console vs console TLoU blows it out of the water in Mocap, non-mocap animation, texture, aliasing, pretty much every technical measure. The console version of inifinite had texture mapping that looked like it came straight out of gen2 consoles. @Geralt of Trivia
You probably wouldn't even have Ellie if it wasn't for Elizabeth. Ellie being a companion after the trend which Elizabeth started is obviously going to have Ellie be more evolved. However, saying Elizabeth is some "collector" is well....idiotic. Elizabeth is the antithesis of the world around her and the opposite of Booker. She grows as a character through the story as she finds out more about the world and who she is. Her character arc finishes in the Burial At Sea DLC, in which you witness her go from the naive girl into a serious woman with psychotic tendencies. Elizabeth as a concept in video games was pioneering. She is going to be one-upped by future games and once in a decade masterpieces like Last of Us, but it's best not to forget the impact she has left on the industry.
I need to get better at noticing the strong points of games (and other media) i don't like overall. I wonder if my impression of Infinite as a game grayed out my memory of Elizabeth as a character.
That is certainly possible, but I have found you to be a very observant person, so I would not be surprised if you picked up on Elizabeth's more shallow aspects, leading to feeling even more unimpressed with the game.
I'd recommend trying out the 3 dlc (sans combat arena) for it. The slower style reminiscent of older shocks combined with the lack of "Elizabeth is the best, you guys" really made me appreciate it a lot more.
@@razbuten You can't compare Elizabeth to Ellie because both stories were going for completely different tones & style. It's like saying Lee (Telltale's Walking Dead) is a better Father figure than Kratos (2018). Your video ends up being incredibly *shallow* because of this.
All I know is I replayed parts of TWD multiple times so that I had maximum Clem approval. Any character that can make me care about their “wellbeing” like that is pretty damn good.
I'm a [mostly] straight white female who has played both the games talked about and more. I've got to agree with a lot said here, but as a player outside the target demographic, I have a bit of a differing reason as to why I love these games and play them all the way through. I often see my player character as a person outside myself, especially when they're given a bit of a differing personality. For example I seperated myself from Booker the first time he attempted to bring Elizabeth to New York instead of Paris; if I was in control, I never would have done so. The game became a story about three characters instead of two: the player, the player character, and the companion. I formed a friendship with both of the leads that brought my enjoyment of the game that much higher. I don't know if a connection to player character is worth a video essay, or even how a game can still be loved outside the target demographic, but it might be worth exploring in the future if you ever run out of ideas!
I remember the point in Star Wars: Republic Commando when after relying on your 4 person squad you are told to infiltrate an abandoned spaceship alone. Very scary feeling. I honestly remember avoiding combat as much as possible in that bit. Also, happened again near the end, when you are invading some tower and companions leave one after another (to position themselves for the boss fight) until you are left alone in the dark to fight through the last section.
