Cue Tip Contact Myth-Busting Truths in Super Slow Motion 

*NOTE* - See my follow-up videos that clearly show that a softer tip does not get more spin: - “Can a SOFTER TIP Put MORE SPIN on the Ball? -- MYTHBUSTING Answers” video: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-JXeOl9m5TFk.html - "POWER DRAW and Large-Curve Massé with a BREAK CUE Phenolic Tip!!!" video: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-NZcZlJNW5IA.html - "A Fun CHALLENGE DRILL to Test Your DRAW QUALITY … and SOFT VS. HARD TIP Comparison" video: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-T8vTQ3TGJlo.html *Contents:* 0:00 - Intro 0:10 - Myth 1 - Tip Contact Time 0:48 - Myth 2 - Control During Contact 2:07 - Myth 3 - Tip Hardness Effects 3:16 - Myth 4 - Shot Speed Effects 4:23 - Myth 5 - Miscues 5:42 - Myth 6 - Sliding Contact 6:29 - Wrap Up 6:45 - ---- clip montage *CORRECTION:* - at 4m21s, I meant to "no noticeable effect" (not "noticeable effect"). *NOTE:* Many people have suggested that the longer tip contact time associated with a soft tip would allow the soft tip to impart more spin to the CB. "This is simply false." For the reasons why, see the newly-revised cue tip hardness resource page: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/cue-tip/hardness/ *Cue/Tip Info:* - Fury HT with unknown "hard" leather tip - house cue with Elkmaster "soft" tip - Players break cue with Bakelite "phenolic" tip *Supporting Resources:* - Top 100 Pool Myths: billiards.colostate.edu/myths/ - cue tip contact time resource page: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/cue-tip/contact-time/ - stroke acceleration resource page: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/stroke/acceleration/ - cue tip hardness effects resource page: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/cue-tip/hardness/ - miscue resource page: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/foul/miscue/ *Subscribe to Dr. Dave's RU-vid Channel:* ru-vid.com

Your data proves that Myth #3 is correct. The soft time has a contact time that is 50% longer than the hard tip. 50% is a large increase. You are focused on actual time elapsed, but when making comparisons, it is important to look at the percentage differences.

This videos is kinda proof that sometimes more graphs and information is not the answer

Thank you very much. I had several hours of arguments in my life and words simply couldn't convince people. I can just send them the link to this video now and call it a day, use the time to actually play pool. Thank you Dr. Dave!

If the cue ball literally only is in contact for that microsecond, then wouldn’t say, the whole practice of “staying down on the ball through the shot” be completely irrelevant to accuracy. Or that a straight follow through is essential for accuracy. Literally, both of those things have 0 impact on where the ball goes

Dr. Dave, I have a tremendous amount of respect for you, but I think at least one of your conclusions is wrong. If a soft tip stays in contact with the cue ball up to 50% longer that HAS TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE! While I don't experiment with different tips much, I have gone to a softer tip because that was what I had available to me. I immediately noticed more "action" on my draw, follow, and left and right english. It was quite noticeable in fact, and actually caused me some issues with making shots and getting position as the cue ball had more action. Also, a friend of mine, who had used my cue with a harder tip, mentioned that he was getting more spin with my cue. I had not told him I had changed tips. I firmly believe, and your own evidence suggest this, that a softer tip imparts more spin. It would be different if the difference was only say 3-5%, but you are mentioning up to a 50% difference. It is hard to believe that additional contact time does not make a difference on spin.

Dr Dave, as an engineer, I think you need to add units to your table. You’re stating 1.9 thousandths of a second, but the table should also have this unit.

This is a great video. It put me to sleep better and quicker than RU-vid sleep music.

Very similar idea in tennis. People think they have control over what they do with the ball at contact. Truth is, the ball is already gone. Nice video!

I'll need to watch some more of these. Precision is a key to good play and you can definitely feel the difference in how you hit the ball. As a player of many years, the hardness of the tip does make a difference. But I can play with almost any fairly straight cue with a good tip, you just have to make adjustments to compensate as best you can. The tip is just the tip of what's involved. ;)

have been playing this afternoon. good to see these images.

Another great informative video, I've gained great pool knowledge from watching your videos and always encourage my pool buddies to watch them too.

Interesting video. My only question is “who is striking the ball”? Pros and amateurs contact the ball very differently. What many players say the difference is hitting the ball, or pushing it. When I’m “pushing the ball”, the contact feels 1000x different that when I’m hitting it. And the feeling in my hand tells me the contact is more than illustrated in this video.

Fantastic information, had no idea the contact time was so short. My inquisitive mind started wondering how long a baseball bat and ball stay in contact. Researched and found it's in the same range.

But how is the cueball reacting to the 0.4-0.9ms differences? And how are the time differences insignificant? I could see if the difference was less than 5%, but you’re talking 16%-50%.

Dr Dave, it's too bad you were not available to me when I was 10 years old and first picked up a cue. I could have been a world beater! I am 69 years young now!

Need to do a myth bust of the different cue tip sizes. Penny, Nickle, Dime

The psychological effects of hard vs soft would be a good candidate for a study. I suspect some people probably slow down their shots subconsciously with softer tips to impart more spin. Physics don't lie.

I imagine that a ball that is in contact with a tip for half the time, hard vs soft tip, would have a large difference in the amount of spin imparted onto the ball. I would like to see some numbers on what the difference in RPMs is between soft and hard tips.

Awesome work, beautiful footage, I will explain with bases to my friends why a miscue is a foul o double contact

I’m sorry but more than a 40 percent increase in duration of contact is a significant difference. Sure the amount of time is really small but it’s completely relative

Beautiful video but with wrong conclusion. 1,9ms shouldn’t be considered long or short time. It is what it is. That’s the time of the contact that we have in this game. And it is wrong to compare that time with the time that a football players leg touches the ball, or the golf stick touches the golf ball, calling it long or short. What matters - is the fact that there is 25%difference between 1,9 and 1,5 on your picture. And that explains a lot. The fact, that you can do screw backs in this game itself means that your tip moves the ball. Otherwise the cueball would always jump, because the vector of force is directed from the point of contact through the center of the cue ball, that is to the ceiling. And longer the contact you have, more accurate the shot and stronger the screw back you will get. I don’t to write a lot, no one will read anyway. But i don’t think that someone will be able to repeat what is done here with a break cue. But if in next 100 years someone reproduces it, then i would suggest him to take a steel cue with a steel tip and try again. With a steel tip you will have almost 100% of difference in a time of contact in comparison even with a break cue. Instead of 0,8 Ms you will have 0,00008 Ms. Feel the difference! ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-NSDpVUFJ-74.html

I think a person will sleep better at night knowing that with a softer tip , you’ll have fewer miscues ? When hitting in the outer zone , especially if your hitting at steeper angle .

Can you make a video next on the anatomy’s of the stroke , like what different muscles groups do when you stroke . Your the only one that can do it Dave 🙏🏼

My observation watching the contact times, The cue ball moves approximately 2MM during contact time with the soft tip and 1MM with the hard tip. Less then 1mm with the phenolic tip. I used small sticky notes to mark the cue ball movement, beginning and end of the cue tip contact. There is a noticeable difference.

I play with soft tips and I carry sandpaper in my wallet so I always scuff the tip to suede, allowing it to hold more chalk. Sometimes on an English shot I will give the pool cue a small twist. I am pretty sure I can hold the ball longer than 1.9 in this fashion. I can feel the side of the cue roll across the surface of the ball

It's interesting on the draw show miscue that most people say the miscue is caused from hitting under the cue ball to begin with. When in this you can clearly see that the hit is in the correct place to begin but then drops below to scoop. Would love to see more of in this slowmo format. It's beyond interesting.

Well done Dr Dave as ever!

On the CB slide portion of the video you talk about how the tip "grabs the CB and how it deforms". Wouldn't that be the result of using a soft tip? If the tip takes on the shape on the cue ball when struck and expands back out, it will definitely give the tip more contact time on the cue ball. Is it me, or is the 1st myth and last myth kind of contradicting?

Question for Dr. Dave. 2 scenarios, if the grip is stronger versus weak/ no grip power at all, with the same cue speed hitting the cue ball, would the stronger grip gives longer impact time which results in more reaction and power transferred into the cue ball from the cue? Assumping all the other factors staying the same - i.e. speed, cue weight, and all that

Thousands of Newtons of force can make a considerable difference even in hundreds of microseconds. This is especially true for spin. The cue ball momentum is independent of the tip, but the friction and spin is much better with a soft tip.

How can you say that half contact time has no effect because the numbers are so small? It’s all about scale, the numbers still have measured separations. There’s a clear difference between hardness. Logic like that brings into question the whole video.

Very interesting. Thanks Dr. Dave.

Is there a channel that explains darts in this detail and fashion? This is amazing work. We need more channels like this.

Awesome stuff as usual, Dr. Dave. I'd argue that a soft tip still stays in contact about 50% longer than a hard one, even though the absolute value is in millisecond rage. Not sure we can dismiss that. A soft tip appears to impart more spin than a hard one - at least that's how it feels to me. Or it that too a misconception? :)

I need to see you tell people that titanium ferrules are also a gimmick. Impossible physically to affect the shot

Venom begs to differ he says his bending the cue into the table is what gives his extra draw power plus his body english. You should super slow motion him.

Alan Hopkins has been a champion pool player despite a stabbing stroke. This research br Dr Dave et al shows why his stabbing stroke produced results as good as other champion pool players with smooth strokes - the CB to OB duration is so brief that the good results come only from a chalked tip hitting the desired spot on the OB while the cue is aiming in the proper direction. I have instructional videos by Freddie "The Beard" Bentivigna on Banking. He taught that certain shots required a firm, or sometimes a loose, grip on the cue. Dave disproves that. But Freddy also taught what he called using a "dead level cue" which probably is a good stroke to master - though 'level' is not possible for most shots, because the rail clearance requires at least a bit of downward angle on the cue.

Thanks for the great video! 😊 And very surprising. I always believed and felt that long follow through accelerates the spin on the ball. 🤔

I think if you say that the tip contact with cue ball varies only for a very small amount of time, meaning that has no effect on spin, is simply not true. pool is not even a game of milliseconds, millimeters, but a game of even fractions of those. “Having little effect” does not mean no effect, and in pool, it makes a world of difference.

Amazing video as always DrDave!

Mind Blown!

Thanks Dave this very interesting

Is Myth 1 only busted for a center ball hit, since the footage used in that section was only center ball hits? My intuition is telling me for draw/follow/side shots, this would maybe show different results. Since you wouldn't be hitting center of mass, it 'seems' the cueball would not leave the tip as quickly as a center ball hit at the same speed, as the energy would be divided between the forward motion and the rotation. But it's just an intuition, since I know zero about physics.

It would be interesting, and possibly settle some of the questions raised in these comments, to see cue stick speed graphs for different strokes - strokes with too tight a grip, stokes with long follow through, and strokes with short follow through.

Great video but wrong conclusions imho, tip hardness makes up to 50-100% change, can't be neglected. If it didn't matter why not just play with phenolic all the time)

I enjoyed your mythbusting video.

Myth 1 - it is called lag time...1ms is a lot. Check out golf physics and the 1000s rpm of spin imparted in far less. Myth 3 - right it varies - yes that makes a huge difference. 2ms is a 100 percent increase on 1 ms. Double the lag-time is huge! I don't expect people to have looked into this, so a chump video will be all the evidence the averagely physics-educated person will need to be convinced. If you do not know the physics of translational energy vs rotational energy then a visual might be enough for you.

great stuff, can settle lots of conflicts.

love the slo mo views

Some of the most interesting analysis I've seen in cue sports. the footage / data speak for themself, but the conclusions may be a little off. differences in contact time between tip and cueball, even if in the thousandths of a second make a significant difference. not only on the amount of side (english) you can achieve but also how hard you have to hit the ball to achieve this side (timing of cue stroke, or touch). liked the chart showing cue speed with distance travelled forward. would love the see the different curves from different players. particularly from someone who is considered to have excellent timing. this for me, (along with the line of the delivered cue) is one of the most important aspects of the game. and, moreover, the most under appreciated and misunderstood aspect of the game.

Superb work -- as always. Thanks.

A lot of research. Practically, should players work on stroke acceleration, smoothness, level, etc. seeing as how contact time is so minimal. It strikes me that the real issue is how much the cue tip can "grab" the cue ball for that microsecond. Obviously an unchalked cue tends not to grab the ball regardless of the shortness of the contact duration. How much deflection occurs in the shaft probably affects the desired effect more than contact time also. Regardless of what the microsecond info says, the way a cue is stroked, it's speed, and follow through...do make a difference on how it affects the cue ball. I think this video is still only showing one aspect of the physics involved. Contact time.

Thanks! I'd like to learn more about the velocity or acceleration on draw shots and when you miscue. Would be interesting to get down to the ms level to understand what's going on.

Hay Dave, thx for the Videos. I Have ove myth/question. Look at the graph at 1:33. According to the graph the ball is hit with constant speed = Zero acceleration. Dv/ dt = 0. The mystery is about if one can increase the time of tip contact if dv/dt is non Zero. So, if one strikes the ball with the speed that is found in the graph at 1:33 for x value (cue distance = 4) equal to approx 4.2. At that x Value dv/dt is clearly not Zero, hence the acceleration is non Zero and therefore one should get longer contact time; question mark. 🤔

This is great, thank you. Have you studied the affect of surface area contact. Maybe, the affects people describe with a softer tip aren't contact time, but surface contact area? Or, maybe the two work together enough thatf a pro can tell the diffrence between a soft and hard tip when it comes to spin or other claimed affects.

Thanks. It would be interesting to see the graph of cue speed for a light and heavier stick.

Thanks! I enjoyed!

This was very informative. Great job! Awesome video!😊

I think a collab with @smartereveryday is now a must

This also shows why using chalk is useful. It's not just a traditional thing.

The only thing missing is the equipment used to swing the the stick in the slow motion videos. Surely that was not done by a human being. It would immediately null out all the numbers in the Tip/Speed chart. Especially the Slow vs Fast cue speeds.

Thanks for sharing this. very interesting. One additional factor that would be interesting to understand would be how contact area of the cue tip to the ball affects the cue ball response and how cue tip hardness in turn affects surface area contact. It would seem intuitive that softer tip creates a greater surface area contact but slow mo evidence and measurement would be fascinating. Does contact area make a real difference?

So interesting!!! I mean Kamui seems to disagree with the tip grip by hardness but kinda hard to argue with science

I’m sorry Dr. Dave but from this video one might draw the conclusion that the concept of “timing” in the pool stroke is simply a myth as well, when in reality everyone who plays at an intermediate to high level knows that timing is very real and how important it is. If 100% of the energy is imparted in 1 ms then increasing the time in contact by .5 ms is a 50% increase. What was not checked is whether a well-timed stroke differs from a decelerating stroke in terms of tip contact time, all other things being equal.

I used to play with soft tip believing it get more spin. After changing to hard tip, I now know that it is not true at all. The only difference I found was how the shots would feel i.e. soft tip feels dampen/springy upon contact and hard tip feels like a truck hitting a car. Other than that, there are slight differences to CB throw off on swerve shots. Would be nice if there is a new type of cue tip that allows us to get rid of chalk though.

Not allowed to jump the cue ball over an obstacle ball? Since when? Who taught me how to play pool. I've only ever played a few dozen games in my life, but never even heard anybody say such a things. If true, this blows my mind.

Pretty Cool stuff.😮

Corollary to the first two busted myths, I hope you can do a video on why follow through seems to matter. That would settle a decades-long argument I've had with some pool friends.

In your "Tip Contact Time" portion of the video you are doing the testing using a tip that is very low. I believe the results would be different if you use a new soft or SS tip. The tip compression time has to change things in this regard, right?

Thanks, and i curious to know, if its 1ms impact, why is follow thru stroke so important? As this would conclude that basicly you just need to deliver power to some point on CB and basicly stop cue right there?

4:21 Negligible?

Intersting and informative. Great video Dr. Dave!! Thanks!!

Clearing away BS is... good.

I appears that the tip sticks to the ball and the que tip will bend as the ball starts to roll. Just becouse something can't be seen in 1 ms dose not mean that things are not going on in much less than 1 ms. Collisions like this are very fast. I found it interesting that you used miles per hour on your chart. Cheers.

Nice billiard educational video. Love u dr dave 👏👍👍

When you play a jump shot, does the cueball get out of the way in time to avoid a secondary hit with the tip?

Hi, what does tip size determine. How does it affect performance. Such as 13mm, 12.50mm, 12.25mm, etc. Is it true that the larger the tip, the more lee way for accuracy, the small the tip the more accurate you have to be but can produce more spin? And lastly what size do you prefer? Thanks

Please explain why you need so much follow through for draw? The contact time doesn't seem to matter...

But this raises a question why we need follow throw if the contact is that small..

Just because Ronnie Allen could play winning pool one-handed does not mean I will suddenly improve my game by switching to one-hand pool shots. The problem with anecdotal evidence is that it might be right, or wrong, but we can never know for sure until some basic elements of the scientific method are introduced. Dr Dave has been introducing the science of pool for many years, and has a pretty good track record. I for one thank him for his efforts, and also thank those who assist and carry on his work.

Great vid, very interesting

Its one thing to measure the differences of what's happening, its another to conclude they are insignificant, which you have a bad habit of doing. That is incorrect.

Fantastic!!!!

Bob Jewett's studies. He did extensive studies with this. Bob Byrnes says a hard tip applies more English. I have always followed this rule bc physics.

Very interesting. I immediately noticed the difference in the 'chalk explosion' between your videos and the Austrian and Russian videos. Looks like the Austrian and Russian videos likely used Master chalk which leaves a dusty mess. Seems obvious your videos were not using Master chalk distinguished by the almost imperceptible chalk explosion at tip contact. I use Taom pyro chalk which isn't a 'dusty' chalk instead leaving very small chunks of chalk on my table. (9ft Gold Crown) What a mess the house cue was. 😁

I looked through your videos... may have missed it. Have you done a video on nickle vs dime radius? Would be nice to see a closeup slow motion of how much difference there is in cue ball contact...especially with only a millisecond of actual contact. Which is better?

To say that follow thru can not change the spin or direction because the tip is no longer in contact, is misunderstanding the reason for follow thru. Tell a golfer that the ample shenanigans display after the wood hits the ball are pointless, and you will be laughed out of the room. Follow thru can not be measured because it has to do with the player's body mechanics and its effect is a preparation for the stroke. The way the brain prepares and execute the stroke is not the same with or without follow thru. The player executes the shot differently thanks to the concept of follow thru not because of it.

Wow. As someone who is not an avid billiard player (though I enjoy it when I get a chance), it is interesting to see people's reaction to this. It seems there are so many factors to consider on the question of cue tip softness. At the moment, I am not convinced either way, but I am assuming Dr. Dave did actually test the spin of the balls hit with the different tips, right? If so, then I think I would side with him on this issue. However, I do love soft tipped cues. My guess is that, beyond the psychological issue, there are many factors in the real world that can make a difference that it would be hard to make a determination based on the tip alone. Are you miscueing? Are you really hitting the CB in the same location? Are you hitting with the same speed? Or are you just more confident? However, since the softer tips do have more contact area, would this be more forgiving, in terms of the player's aim?

So, all shots are push shots, it is just the amount of time that the cue tip is on the cue ball.

Great video! The first part should change some foul calls.

Hey Dr. Dave, So, I get the points you’re making. However, I feel like in this series and the article on the website, some shortcuts were taken to make the content more accessible, which could potentially affect the conclusions. For example: the softer tip creates a larger surface area by deforming more, and a larger surface area would provide more friction, wouldn’t it? You mention this and claim, "(…)but this would provide a benefit only if the tip is not chalked well." You continue with: "If a harder tip is not holding chalk well or is not chalked properly, the smaller contact patch could increase the chances of slipping during the hit." But if you don’t chalk a soft tip well, wouldn’t it also miscue earlier? This part of your argument doesn’t seem entirely causal in this case. Also, based on some of the comments, a follow-up on this topic with more streamlined reasoning seems like a logical next step. By the way, I love your content! This isn’t a rant-just sharing some thoughts on the topic and how you approached it. :)

I know nothing about this and very little about physics, but wouldn't a softer tip be able to impart slightly more spin due to more surface area contact?

What would be a very important experiment is if someone could program a robot that cues the same every time (in terms of angle), but reaches the speed in different ways. I don't believe you would see the same energy transfer if a cue coasts at constant speed into the cueball vs when the same speed is being reached only just as the contact occurs. Even if the latter goes on to be decelerated too, I still believe that you would get slightly longer contact and better energy transfer due to lowering of the deceleration. It's a big difference when something still has an active input force, vs when it only coasts on momentum. I don't believe that it's only illusion that great players can get huge amounts of power and spin from a simple and slower looking stroke than a lesser player, or that it is only about an input speed. If there's a slight illusion, I think it's simply that well timed shots save the maximum speed and active force input for the instant of collision (thus looking slower overall, even if the contact speed is the same). However, I don't believe it's an illusion that you can do more with timed acceleration than coasting at the highest speed.

Im not sure if I understood this correctly, but please tell me if Im wrong. What I understood is that your follow through has little to no impact on the actual spin you create. But why every pool teacher, every pool pro tells you you to follow through to create good backspin? If the cue tip impact on the ball is like 1/1000 second, doesnt that mean there is "no follow through"? Could a very accurate and presice machine generate as much backspin than a lets say Corey Deyel with his crazy follow through stroke?

If the tip contact time is so minimal and the ball is gone, then that tells me that a good follow through means absolutely nothing. Only thing that would matter is tip placement and speed at impact. That would explain why players like Allen Hopkins and Alex Pagulayan are so effective in spite of their punch strokes.

It would be valuable to know does the shape of a cue tip effect the duration of cue ball contact? There are many “opinions” that a flatter tip profile imparts less spin and maintains contact longer. True or not?

Excellent, as usual; your impact on our game from technical study is legendary. I did believe Myth 1 for many earlier decades, but this video evidence is clear. As an artistic billiards player, there seemed no other explanation for the FACT that there are some shots (e.g., extreme bend) that seemingly cannot be made without a VERY long follow-through (a foot or more). I guess the answer must be that such a stroke causes increased acceleration before contact, and avoids any deceleration before contact. It's still a puzzle though, as one would think an 8" follow-through could accomplish both those objectives, but it can't (or at least I can't; with 8" I don't get the extreme action, with 12-14" I do). I have seen some players though who could get unbelievable action with only a medium follow-through -- I guess they're just slamming on the brakes immediately after contact, or their muscle-memory and fast-twitch muscles are better/faster than us mere humans). These observations are still hard to sit happily with the Myth 1 clip.

Great video

Curious if any videos exist on new CF deflection test with cheap light balls and new slippery cloth. Played an event recently and found light CB was deflecting off aiming line causing some missed shots. I would love to see cheap vs expensive balls and new vs old cloth testing