If it's a skill ceiling tier list, I think brig should be much higher than kiri. It's harder to get value with brig. She's kinda hard to play against competent players. (Okay, thank goodness you changed it)
Appeal to authority is a logical fallacy. It's not about "trust". Who's making the better arguments is what matters. I think dafran is a good player, but he's thought processes is just not on the same level as other players on his skill level.
I think actually characters that even noobs can get value from would be a better tier list than skill ceiling tier list. Cause a character can be noob friendly and still have a higher skill ceiling but that doesn't mean noobs can't get value with those.
people really dont understand what he means by skill ceiling... he's talking about whos hardest to be one of the best at that character not hardest to get value from
but thats literally the wrong meaning of what "Skill ceiling" means... it means the more skill you have the higher reward you get. for example widowmaker has the highest skill ceiling, because imagine if there is someone who never miss headshot? he will be unbeatable, and thats because widowmaker has ridiculous skill ceiling, but if you have the best junkrat possible, then you would still lose against pro histcans who not necessarily the best. so putting junkrat in A and other picks like him just means you don't actually understand what the skill ceiling means. and before you glaze under my post, yes i know dafran is an ex pro but im pretty sure he misunderstood of what this term really means.
imo widowmaker and tracer have their own tier as dps, and then echo and genji at A tier, and the tanks i do agree that both of ball and doomfist are S tier.. just watch Junbin and Guxue what they did with these tanks and then winston at A tier and supports the obvious answer who is gonna be the only support at S tier is Lucio, and then comes Ana at A tier.
@@konyadake1602 skill ceiling simply means how much better a hero can be played than how its played by the average player. Has nothing to do with getting value, or anything else. A gm genji can be playing genji 10x better than a plat genji and be just as valuable as his moira player holding right click.
@@konyadake1602 Your definition of skill ceiling is literally incorrect. To have a high skill ceiling means a hero is difficult to master. It has nothing to do with the effectiveness of the hero. Junkrat has a WAY higher skill ceiling than widowmaker because maintaining a high direct hit accuracy on junkrat is very difficult.
I think he's 100% on point with the dps and supports in this skill ceiling ranking, but he's a bit biased with his tank rankings. I think JQ has a higher skill ceiling than roadhog for sure, just because her knife is as hard/harder to land than hook, and there's more nuance to her kit.
@@2anz611The list is for ceiling, you cant be at the ceiling in a week. The connoisseur of the heros are playing the the ceiling, which takes years to get to.
Really interesting and hard list to make. So many characters get good value by just existing but to be really good with them requires a lot of knowledge and mechanics.
If Ana is B then Widow shouldn’t be higher than B lmao. A lot of Widows just camp backline and take pot shots at everything and win games just off their presence alone. Definitely not Genji/Tracer tier.
@@VladStopTalking A widow who won't miss a shot > an Ana who won't miss a shot, that's what skill ceiling mean. Aka the maximum potential of a hero if you master them.
I appreciate pharah being B tier because sure shes really easy to left click but once you get higher than metal ranks, you need to be really good with her to survive and it is possible
I am so confused. Is this how easy a character is to play generally or just for him? I guess he also talks about the skill level but also how easy it is to get value out of the characters. Like the logic for junkrat works but that same logic applies to a lot of niche heroes like sym too. He also mentions diffs for certain heroes, but you can clearly notice mercy diffs or lifeweaver diffs too…
He ran it past lawyers and Blizzard. It's THE official Skill Ceiling Tier list. Skill ceiling btw is "how difficult is it to master a character, if at all possible?". It has nothing to do with how easy / hard the kit is to use, as some heroes have low skill floor (easy to play) and near infinite skill ceiling (extremely hard to master), e.g. Junkrat.
As a new player I’d agree with this. I’ve watched enough OW videos to know that if I picked up any of the heroes in S tier I’d be completely useless whereas I could get value from anything in D tier. Everything in between becomes less viable for noobs the closer they get to S, unless I would play them constantly. E.g.: I enjoy playing ana so I get good value out of her, more than I would from mercy, but that’s only because I play her a lot.
I agree with everything except Sigma and Bap, they have a loaded kit that need to be managed technically and not mechanically. Shield placement and holding the right angles in addition to rock deserve B. Bap is notorious for requiring high APM so A is the right place.
I would definitely put ashe at least tier higher, her combos of unscoped and scoped shots exist and you dont really see even gm players consistently hitting them Edit: wait i just noticed widow is in s tier lmfao the list is troll
Lifeweaver is super easy to understand and learn but his skill ceiling is much higher than D tier. He can do insane tricks to counter Sigma ult, Zarya ult, Orisa ult, Tracer pulse bomb, Rein shatter, Junkrat Tire etc not everyone can do that with his abilities, which is why I would place him C tier. I say this because Dafran did the same with Junkrat. Junkrat has low skill needed to be good. HOWEVER!!! If you learn how to aim with his projectiles he can become INSANE. Which is why he pushed Junkrat from B tier to A tier. I say the same for Lifeweaver. But this is just an opinion.
As someone who one tricks venture, she is definitely like B or A tier bc of the mechanic skill alone to consistently hit one shot combos and landing directs with the primary fire. That’s the difference between 1hp and kill confirming
I definitely one trick Tracer just to get good & playing her. I also somewhat one trick Brig at one point when I got this game. Now I play Kiriko & Illari which aren't really hard if you know what you're doing. Widow, I can see that for sure. She's easy to play, but definitely requires game sense to be on 10. So yeah...
the people who say widow is only aim, have never played widow, has bad aim and got shiddon from enemy widows. But i would put Junker queen a one tier above cus of her knife throw.
Hanzo should be definitely be at least B. On top of mastering his movement for crazy rollouts and trick shots you have also the bounce from his storm arrrow. Ipotetically the best Hanzo know all the spots to hit you behind corners after sonic arrow. I would put him in A or S even.
You really fell off with echo though, she requires the most intense aim in tracking and projectile switching while being easy to kill and has the most difficult ultimate in the game, right? She should be A
You don't need to one trick echo to be good at her, though. She isnt as difficult as genji and tracer, either. Echo plays terrible on certain maps, and on the maps she is good on, you can also play genji and tracer
@@krit_j162you can argue that with tracer too, she’s extremely easy to get value with up to the top ranks then it becomes hard. That’s why tracer is played more because she gets more value than echo but a cracked tracer and a cracked echo could both destroy a team. She could even be argued into S tier but it’s Dafrans opinion and he’s a tracer main. I think a T500 echo main would argue A tier or above
@@doublelizard767you don’t need to one trick tracer to be good with her either until you’re in the top ranks, same for echo. Tracer is so easy for anyone with good aim to carry and echo is definitely more difficult than Tracer, the OW devs purposely made her more difficult
@@lorenzodiaz4024 lol,okay is that why widow is S tier too? she all about aim like cass and if anything she has more range and can sit way behind with her teammate while cass's range is so bad
@@yarinshabot2399 widow is extremely fragile and her kit relies on the player hitting basically every shot (I hate widow) Her skill ceiling is very high with the flick shots and grapple shots. Cass is literally point and click, a flash you can’t miss, an ult that’s easy to use, and a roll
@@lorenzodiaz4024 so is widow point and click such dumb way to say just click heads meme,the flash is useful only in close encounters and the roll ain't that great,cass is the most diveable dps in the game still,the ult may be easy to use behind cover but i would just get the free reload out of it most of the time.
@@yarinshabot2399 yeah ur right about the point a click but it is harder to hit widow shots and u get punished for missing shots. I don’t understand how cass is the most diveable when he counters dive like Winston doom and tracer? To me cass is the most beginner friendly dps (after reaper and soldier) since the ability with the highest skill ceiling is probably his reloads
Junkrat is very difficult in diamond and above. Junk has a really low skill floor and one of the highest skill ceilings, which is what this tier list is about
Echo in B???? Below Roadhog??? Thats cooked. She's Easily the highest skill ceiling character in the game, even not including ult u have to aim 2 different projectiles and a hitscan whilst flying in a hard to hit way and now u have 225 health so u have to play perfect to win duels. And hitscans are the best they've ever been rn. Then add her ult which alone has the highest skill ceiling in the game.
I think tracer is very easy to play. You have 4 chances to correct your bad positioning and genji is just no aim spammer, dash has gigantic hitbox where you can't miss. I'm pretty sure low elo noobs play genji a lot
Zen 100% needs to be atleast A tier if not S tier. He has no self survival kit with zero movement and the healing and dicord needs to be on point to get literally any value out of him. His ult is also easily cancelled by a character like ana unlike kiriko or lucio's ult that has zero counter
Brig should have stayed low tbh. brig does not take mechanics, nor really positioning as you just sit next to ana or bap. the ult stun is MASSIVE, and hard to mess up
Ana is so slow and squishy tho. Brig stays alive so much easier. I’d also love sig and zarya up one, more mechanical skill and awareness than people think
Yes why? You don't think so little master? She has lots of hard counters i would watch you going widow against sombra reaper venture ball etc, no skill required right?
Put Junk in A because he is "easy to play but hard to master" and proceeds to put Mercy in D who has the same design with her mobility, but oh well. In that sense, any hero should be A+ because every single hero is hard to master (Also Rein above Ana 💀)
I mean it's an opinion man. Personally I'd like to think the opinion of a guy who's achieved top 500 on almost every hero has a pretty good understanding of the skill ceiling and difficulty of heros.
Did you even watch the video? In the first 10 seconds he said its HIS tier list, HIS opinion on skill. It's rated by how difficult he finds playing the hero's himself lol.
Brig is fairly skill based and pretty difficult. In fact, her positioning is more important than Ana's. Outside of having aim, Ana basically plays herself. Brig has a lot of weird oddities and positioning specifics but can be hyper effective if she does them correctly. There's a reason most people don't play her, but pros still recognize her as a strong hero.
Juno is definitely not harder than Ana. Juno has an auto aim-lock on skill, her primary fire has way more ammo and is easier to hit its literally an SMG. Ana you need to alternate between hit-scan and projectile aim, and both her skills are projectiles. Also Ana has no movement abilities.
@@soloace7457 Yeah but you can also argue that Ana can literally not escape - you are forced to 1 v 1, if you don't have the skills to 1 v1 you are automatically screwed. At least Juno has horizontal verticality to run away to safety.
You say skill ceiling but most of the time you're saying "This character is easy". Like huh, that's not the point. The point is which characters are hard to master or play at a high level. Placing Junker Queen in the same bracket as orisa is diabolical. Like, you seriously think ORISA. A tank that just needs to exist to get value is in the same level as a squishy tank that needs to land her easily counterable skill shots like Junker Queen to get a fraction of value orisa offers for doing very little? You have to be joking.
Yeah seems like he changes the judging criteria for some characters. There’s no way mei and bastion are in the same tier, or orisa and jq like you mentioned
braindead tier list as usual. Dont know about the rating. when you rate a DIFFICULTY you need to take the most important thing MECHANICAL SKILLS DEMANDING A hero simply squishy like ZEN DOESNT MEAN HE IS HARD. He has no mechanical requirement, his options like orb are not hard choice. You put on your teammate and dis orb on enemy. There is nothing hard about that, no multiples option. Game sens is what everyone need not just zen Hard, mechanical is like TRACER, MEI- > Because their kits has mutiples option. Where to blink, should i recall. How to wall enemy, wall to block skills, wall to get to hg etc
