Accurate. People carry the damn thing around like they glean knowledge by osmosis, but they are really saying they are afraid social progress and change in general. Hate covered by a very thin veneer of religiosity.
indeed. if you try to show an evangelical apologist that their views are not supported by scholarship, you will eventually find that any topic comes down to some critical details. it's all well and good to listen to scholars talk in generalities, and understand the big picture ... but you will need to know details if you have the time and patience to drive an apologetic claim into the ground. if you encountered the common claim that the dead sea scrolls prove the authenticity of daniel, you'd be stumped by the specious half truths of a good apologist if you didn't know the details. this is a great coverage of how the parts of daniel fit together and how the story is informed by the available manuscript fragments; and you're hearing it from people with experience in having the arguments with apologists trying to defend the "traditional" view. [which isn't really traditional, because mainstream scholars dated daniel to 2nd century BC a long time ago. but this recent work puts the cherry on top.] i've known for a long time that the book of daniel is especially devastating to the case of people trying to take the bible at face value and imagine that it proves prophecy, but amateurs can acquire a really solid understanding now. and if any of this is a bit unclear, i've heard kipp explaining daniel on a few different podcasts now and i found it useful to hear it explained in slightly different ways
I really enjoyed this talk. I do wish one thing: they would quote Bible verses more often instead of just saying a reference to what it generally says.
Phillipians 1 vs 6 he who started a good work in you will see it through to completion. All these guys will eventually come back to faith even if it's on their deathbed. Just look up famous atheist last words and moments to see more clear they are in rebellion and God will show them something from their extensive study to bring them back. Whatever you believe about the Bible whatever lies a pastor told you or whatever caused a church hurt or betrayal feeling in the mind will be worked out. Of course the Bible is not flawless and not edited that's stupid in my opinion to say man has sinful nature but we trust his hand in writing editing translation etc. people get hurt when they find something that shows this and feel betrayed. I've come to my own personal conclusion the general message cannot be changed can't take the word out of the word.
@@MrAlepedroza thank you friend. To what do I owe the Honor? I won't waste time on explanation of who I am but I promise you have a wrong idea of me. Tell me have you ever examined anything for yourself or just waste time listening to people talk and give regurgitated information on RU-vid? I'm guessing you don't believe anything or consider yourself educated so let's have your story? I'm no Christian nor am I bound by any religion just an observer
@@adonai136the Bible is not 100 percent perfect because people wrote down what their perception about the world around them was. That doesn’t change the fact that God and only God is perfect. I read about Islam Buddhism and dofferent religion but one thing is for sure true: we have a God who created us, loves us and gave us free will hoping that we follow theway of love This is my belief
@@anikomattison7568 thank you for sharing and your open mind. I have studied many paths myself until I've settled into the vedanta teachings specifically the lineage of sri ramakrishna paramahansa to swami Vivekananda here you find all paths are embraced and are paths to God. I'm always Leary of anyone claiming to have a monopoly on the truth. blessings my friend
I am 75 years old, and as an Episcopalian, have always been taught the the Book of Daniel was written as religious fiction. In high school, I had friends who were taught that the KJV, word for word, punctuation mark per punctuation mark was THEE TRUTH! The Last True, Inerrant, Revelation of God! I can see where if you were taught that to learn decades later, that the Bible was a collection of scrolls, written mostly be men, but probably at least a few women, over 10 or 15 centuries, and was mostly just their opinions about Israel's relationship with God, and their personal experiences with having a relationship with God. And like the AA Big Book: "Take what you can use and leave the rest."
i grew up in the australian equivalent of episcopalian. i stopped believing but still admire the fact that there are churches that can accommodate real scholarship; that can tolerate diverse opinions, and support christian belief without imposing the painful contradictions of bible worship. when i spent a lot of time arguing with evangelicals, i'd reject their claims of having proof, but i wouldn't suggest they give up their belief. i would however suggest they become anglicans
Some of the contents of the Bible seem to narrate Near Death Experiences of the authors, and later added narratives or changes to accomodate the power hunger of controllers of nations.
👑🌍🌍👑🌍 What you were taught in school was the opinions of men. The book of Daniel is carbon dated to the second century BC in the later copy of the GREEK SEPTUAGINT. THAT'S WHY THE PROPHECIES IN THE BOOK OF DANIEL ARE SO ASTOUNDING. THESE GUYS ARE NOW EXPOSED AS KNOW NOTHINGS.
Abomination of Desolation was when jesus trashed a temple, took it over and got worshipped in it. You might wanna read Deuteronomy 13 and 2 Thesselonians 2 to help your understanding.
There are people that really need to believe in something to become a better persons. And real knowledge can really damage them,instead of just "showing the truth"
The Bible isn't about making you a better person, its about choosing life everlasting or eternal damnation, and its not works based like every other religion of good deeds out weighing bad deeds.
The book of Daniel is false. I'm not even guessing. (I'm a former indoctrinated conservative Christian.) Thank you Myth Vision Podcast Et. Al. for all your work in giving awareness.
The Kingdom of God didn't come. Ignorance. Luk 17:21 KJV - Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
@@jackisgallantOh, you mean such as when Christians try to explain bible god's omnipotence, omniscience, and omnibenevolence with "divine mysteries?" since there is far too much global suffering to justify the simultaneous existence of all 3 traits? You of all people should not be accusing anyone of cognitive bias or blind faith. Follow your bible and take the plank out of your own eye.
@@jackisgallant Hi, I know this wasn't directed at me, but I do have a response and some thoughts to share if you would allow it. Your initial premise is not singular. As you point out in your explanation, it rests on a few other assumptions, such as: "Choice is necessary to affect a true understanding of the abstract concept of love." However, I don't see how this could be the case. God, being omnipotent should very well be able to create beings who sole existence is a perpetual state of divine love already endowed with the understanding of what it entails, being that God himself surely knows it as an omniscient being. Or, put another way, God being all-knowing must already know love in all forms, and God being all-powerful should be able to create beings such that they are endowed with the knowledge of love and it's proper usage from their very beginning without the need for suffering. As for your claim that atheists need to justify evil, that depends on the atheist. Many atheists believe existence is inherently indifferent thus not disposed toward Good nor Evil which means either occurring is to be expected. Or, they may even outright deny the existence of Good and Evil all together (which I personally find so ridiculous that it nearly sounds absurd). I am an apathetic atheist sympathetic towards pagan polytheism, as well as a moral objectivist. I would explain suffering in Aristotelian terms as the privation of a good due to chance, misfortune, or vice--or, something along those lines. I'm still fleshing out my ethical views. The only good response I am aware of to the Problem of Evil is certain forms of polytheism, as well as Open Theology (Which is a fascinating theological take you should look into if you're not familiar with it!).
@@jackisgallantI’m not a believer but I actually agree with the you here, for the most part. Only part I’d dispute are the Omnis, as far as I’m aware there’s a fair argument against God (the god of classical theism) having those omnis as they can contradict one another, I believe people say “maximally powerful, maximally knowing” etc. to get around any potential hurdles. For example God cannot create something so big he can’t move it, whereas you or I could create something too big for us to move That may be a bad example, I’m no philosopher, but you get the idea I’m also of the personal opinion that you can’t have free will and a being be omniscient, I’ll show my thinking here: Free will: for any given choice, it is possible for me to have picked another option, all things equal E.g. I chose to wear a particular shirt today, it was actually possible for me to pick another one, not just theoretically possible. P1: God is Omniscient P2: I have free will P3: God knows all choices I will make (P1) P4: it is impossible for me to do anything other than what God knows, as he is omniscient. C1: therefore I can not do anything else other than what god knows. C2: therefore I can not choose to do anything different than what god knows C3: therefore I don’t have free will Since there is a contradiction here, it shows that at least one of the premises must be wrong That may not be structured perfectly but I’m pretty sure it can be followed and it’s a sound argument. I think putting god as Maximally knowing may render the above argument obsolete:)
Brah guys you got nothing. Do you understand typology? There is more than one abomination. The now and not yet is a running idea throughout scripture. Understand it as the Jews did. Your arguments amount to nothing. It is funny how you think you have found the original Daniel
@@Tmanaz480 as a Christian, I don’t know any Christian’s who worship their bibles as an object. A Bible cost like 3 dollars. If you lose it, buy another one. They are just books.
It's the problem for Bible literallists, not the believers per se. Just like Bible is not scientifically accurate, it doesn't need to be historically accurate, it's a spiritual guidance, not the facts list.
There are Christians who do believe Greece was the final kingdom, I believe Hank Hanegraaff (the bible answer man), takes this position, though there are good arguments for Rome as well. With that aside, Daniel predicts not only the Messiah being cut off for sins, but His ascension to God to receive His kingdom, as well as the destruction of Jerusalem at the end of their age. In other words, no matter how liberal one gets in the interpretation of Daniel, somehow he got all of that right, and he got it right based on the dating that the book claims (the 70 weeks prophecy), which means even if the late date is true, that was one heck of a guess. One of the reasons these guys have to date things later is because they cannot accept predictive prophecy within their rules/framework.
@@bringemyoungpbuh4123 Not His sins, but sin in general. Daniel 9 talks of the end of sin and the Messiah being cut off-but not for Himself. All this happening in the same time period. Look for the 70 weeks prophesy.
@@flamingswordapologetics I miss identified your motive. I noticed your name and realize what you were arguing for. I pointed out the error in the video about Greece being the last kingdom. It is the last of two in Chapter 8, but it is the third of 4 if you align chapter 8 with chapter 2.
Where did Dr. Kip get an Astroboy t-shirt? Is Astroboy making a comeback? I haven’t seen Astroboy in 60 years. [edit] I see they made an Astro Boy animated film in 2009. Even the wise are drawn to Astro Boy’s mysterious power to create a vacuum where there should be entertainment.
There was also a bit of a revival and some new merch arrived with the anime adaptation of Naoki Urasawa's Pluto which came out in the past year or two iirc. (it's a great adaptation, and I highly recommend both the anime and the manga). If you'ce unfamiliar, Pluto was an adaptation of the Astroboy story The Greatest Robot on Earth in Urasawa's signature style.
35:20 2 Esdras does not say (that Daniel was told) that the 4th empire is Greece. See 2 Esdras 12: 10-12 [Gabriel] said to me, “This is the interpretation of this vision that you have seen: The eagle that you saw coming up from the sea is the fourth kingdom that appeared in a vision to your brother Daniel. But it was not explained to him as I now explain to you or have explained it. I am reading in English of course, so I certainly could be mistaken... but it sounds to me like 2 Esdras is saying "Daniel was not given the interpretation, but I'm interpreting it for you now." Josh is saying (that 2 Esdras is saying) "I'm correcting the interpretation that Daniel was given." Regardless, 2 Esdras does not say (that Daniel was told) that empire 4 is Greece.
If Daniel is a problem for believers, it does not seem well-argued here. The problems of this discussion seem to be: 1. Use of Esdras to interpret anything authoritatively. 2. Assuming Greece as the fourth kingdom, which seems a minority belief of Christians. 3. The assumption that the penitential prayer is not Daniel when it actually fits perfectly in Daniel 9. 4. The vague mention that 11:35 and subsequent as not fulfilled did not help any argument 5. Mention of some stuff being the yet-future event - which I see as inaccurate interpretation. It is bad for these guys to ridicule scripture based on misinterpretations of it. 6. The assertion as ultimate truth ideas that Kipp should only assert as probable from his perspective.
@@carstenstampe My point about misinterpretations concerns Christian's not understanding the text correctly or consistently. Sure, the point carries over to the atheist use of those misinterpretations to make their points. For example, if think the mention of four corners of the earth means the earth is square, the atheists can take this to mean the bible says the earth is square. Any argument they build on that idea then is a flop. The other problem I saw is that these PhDs do not recognize scripture as another testimony of historical events and may be more accurate than other sources on history -- or may be highlighting details when other writers of history may go into greater details or address unrelated details. Mostly, my points are for showing inquisitive minds the potential problems in the views shared in the video.
@@mikeswhitneyThe Bible is nowhere close to be reliable enough to be considered a trustworthy historical source, specially the Old Testament. The Illiad and the Aeneid may be even more reliable even despite mentioning gods and nymphs all the time too.
@@carstenstampeWhat you call misinterpretation is doctrine or dogma for other Christian denominations...and vice versa. You folks can't even agree among yourselve and often won't cross check in good faith other than to attempt to prove others as satanic.
@@MrAlepedroza You read things backwards. The skeptics have so often been found wrong when thinking the scriptures are inaccurate on historical details. I guess you will side with the wrongthinkers. I've not investigated all the times the skeptics are wrong but it may be more often than not that the skeptics rely on wrong interpretations of scripture to find that as an indication that scripture is wrong. If you are so skeptical about scripture accuracy you cannot hardly trust any history before the 19th century either.
Can someone explain why the portions of Daniel that are written in Aramaic pose a problem? Wasn't Aramaic spoken and widely around the Jews were in Babylonian captivity?
How about his name given to Daniel as either human nature the king was so impressed with him with his spiritual gift he wanted to associate with his spirit by calling him his spiritual son who knows . As people don’t believe they become so cynical puffed up with there interpretation of knowledge. The newly converted atheist seems so jilted by his unbelief that he is truly taking on the spirit of an antichrist. I pray he has his own high horse experience like Saul with the true revelation of Christ
The Book of Mormon is kind of a case where a person claimed to "go in the back room of the temple and find a book." It was a hill, not a room in the temple, but the principle is the same. In the 1800s it was a popular literary trope to claim that a book had a mystic origin. Back in the late 1960s there was a poem called "Desiderata" that was associated with a discovery myth. It was supposed to have been found in the wall of an old church. Lots of people believed the myth, even though the poem was from a published work.
But you gotta ask Yourself does God hide up records for a wise purpose and the answer is yes God does hide things if people are not ready to receive them....This is why he knowing this he put his greatest portions of blessings of both heads of the two brothers instead of just on one brother So its not just Judah involved but also his brother Joseph whom God led away into Egypt.
God doesn't hide these things. That's a false equivalency to earthly parenting with mortal parents. WE are unable to see our comprehend a situation, much like a child who feels they can drive because they've observed others drive. No one hid the secret of driving from the child, the child assumed they knew and are stunned to find out they don't know everything. The human hubris.
@@opheliemarin This is to do with God's priesthood authority which Jacob had when he blessed his two sone, the the two brothers with the greatest of God's blessings. One Brother Judah would be where the Bible comes from the Jews, and the other brother Joseph would be where the Book of Mormon and the restored church of Jesus Christ in the last days would come out from. So I go by prophecy of what God promised to the two brothers.
@@opheliemarin But God does hide things. .He has his mysteries and he reveals his secret to his servants the prophets (Amos 3:7). if you check adam's genealogy, you will find this. 18. Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God. (Luke 3:38.) So Adam's Father God did not come from this planet. He came from another planet. Since God along with his other Son Jehovah made worlds without number so naturally God is a celestial being from outer space. That shouldn't surprise anyone since God formed this world. The coming forth of the Book of Mormon in the last days in Isaiah Chapter 29 the sealed book of scripture was one of the things that God hid up in the earth because of the wickedness of men....And would reveal it in the last days....And is in fulfillment of the blessings Joseph was promised by God in Genesis chapter 49 under the hand of Jacob.. That through the restored gospel God would remember his covenant he made with abraham to bless all nations and would gather in all the tribes of the house of israel. The great gathering of the house of Israel is one of the signs of the times. And now Born Again Evangelist Christians have a problem because they teach incorrectly for doctrine that Man is not the same species as God Contradicting Luke's account of Adam's Genealogy and teach that man cannot become like God which contradicts what Jesus taught about becoming just like himself and his Father and here Adam's Genealogy shows that his Father was God. And his Father is from another world other than this one. And that's confirmed in Acts when Paul says that God the Father is the Father of all spirits of all flesh. And that is why we believe we have a heavenly Father and that Jesus is the Father's Advocate.
So, let me understand you, Daniel gets many things wrong and the ones he gets right those things are also wrong because they are to right? I get it I think you guys are to right
Same with John the Revelator, he was talking about HIS times, about the Romans. they werent talking about the future, it applies to what was going on in their worlds. Many things were taken from Babylonian and Sumerian gods/religion/stories, very interesting to know more about bible's roots.
@@johnfitzgerald2426 The 1st beast(from the sea) has 10 horns and on those horns 10 crowns.... The Greek informal for year is hroniá... It is saying that he had a 10 year reign.... I know who he was.... he pre-dates Rome.
@Highspergamy the prince of Grecia will rise from the bottomless pit and he will be behind the antichrist leading a confederacy of 10 nations against Israel
I find it interesting they think the final kingdom is Greece because it mentions Greece in Chapter 8. Chapter 8 identifies a ram it associates with Medo-Persia. Then it identifies a goat from the west to conquer that it called Greece. If we look back at chapter 2, we know the statues starts with gold with the Babylon empire, then three (4?) more. We know Babylon fell to the (Silver) Medo-Persians and we know the Medo-Persians fell to Alexander the Great (Bronze). That leaves one more kingdom of iron, or two if the iron and clay are a different kingdom (rather than a weakening of iron). Am I missing something?
The other is the small horn of the goat are the Medes that give way to the larger horn (Persians) on the same goat head since they were part of the same empire. I don’t think it is as clear cut as they make it seem here.
@@phil42 The ram is Medo-Persian in chapter 8. It is explicitly stated. Shouldn't we see the Silver kingdon (w/two arms) as Medo/Persia? Why would you separate them in to Silver/Bronze? What is your rationale?
@@chrisazure1624 Yes. Wrote goat while thinking ram. The point I was trying to make and made poorly is that the first context, the Medes and Persians where treated as parts of a one single entity in the first dream so why would we assume they are now separate in this parallel dream?
I would highly recommend James Tabor's 31 part series 'Bible Prophecy Through the Ages' for a good general overview of the problems with 'end-times' prophecy.
@35:35 "...Daniel thought it was Greece" that brought to mind John 12:21-31 20 And there were certain Greeks among them that came up to worship at the feast: 21 The same came therefore to Philip, which was of Bethsaida of Galilee, and desired him, saying, Sir, we would see Jesus. 22 Philip cometh and telleth Andrew: and again Andrew and Philip tell Jesus. 23 And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified. 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. 25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal. 26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour. 27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour. 28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again. 29 The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him. 30 Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes. 31 Now is the judgment of this world:
Note: i am a believer in Jesus Christ. I find Daniel's prayer in chapter 9:1-19 to be unique in the Bible, both Old and New Testaments. David's psalm 51 probably has some greater intensity than does Daniel's prayer. But David is praying for forgiveness for himself after committing adultery and killing her husband. Daniel's prayer is for his own sins and that for all of the sins of the Jews. From our point of view, Daniel probably only sinned infrequently. It is almost certain that Daniel was made to be a(n) eunuch in childhood. Saul/Paul probably had very intense prayers asking God for forgiveness, but did not leave a copy of them for us to read. Jesus Christ probably had the most intense prayers. Not for forgiveness, but for the strength to remain faithful to His Father during His crucifixion. Daniel came to realize how sinful he is. He also came to realize how sinful his people, the Jews, are. Just one verse (16) to get a sense for this prayer: O Lord, according to all Your righteousness, I pray, let your anger and You fury be turned away from Your city Jerusalem, Your holy mountain; because for our sins, and our iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and Your people are a reproach to all those around us. Rabbinic Judaism seem to take a laissez faire attitude about being good and bad. Just try to be good. If not, try again. If we are good enough, we might make it so that the Messiach will come. I am a gentile. Relatively few Jews understand that one of their brothers, Jesus/Yeshua, is Our Savior. Jesus can change our hearts and minds to seek goodness, rather than evilness.
Welcome to the lion's den. All of that is great, but its important for Christians to understand the arguments, evaluate, research, and then decide whether these guys have it all right, part right, or not right at all. Daniel whether it was written based on the conservative view or this liberal view, got a lot of things right, especially as it pertains to Jesus, so still some amazing prophecy. I'm with the early dating, these guys partially have to date late because they can't accept predictive prophecy, even though the late date still has fulfilled predictive prophecy. We probably have the dead seas scrolls to thank for that.
Did we watch the same video? My takeaway is that at least part of Daniel is fiction. Even worse is pretending that recent history was written down as prophecy before the events instead of after, as we now know. That is blatant dishonesty. Also, there are no specific prophecies in the Old Testament that predict the messiah will be crucified. I mean specific. Instead, Christians look for any potential vague clue like looking for faces in clouds. If you squint hard enough, you can imagine anything.
@@lawrencemurray568 These guys are secular scholars, its simply not allowed as part of their interpretive paradigm to allow for predictive prophesy, this bias's them heavily to a late date. Psalm 22 is clearly a picture of crucifixion and is a picture of exactly what happened when Jesus was on the cross. I would suggest you watch James White and Michael Brown discuss this here on You-Tube, you can find it with a simple search. Prophesy, types, shadows, were purposely ambiguous enough that the Jews would crucify Jesus, yet clear enough to look back and see they all fit Him. If you think about it, that makes the probabilities even more, as the same scriptures accomplished two purposes . Daniel predicted the destruction of Jerusalem. Even if you take a late date, he made some good guesses, Messiah being killed (but not for Himself), sin ending, etc... Isaiah 53 also fits His death for sin, paying for someone else's iniquity.
You don’t know Jesus. You think you know Jesus based on a book that talks about Jesus and none are first hand accounts. That’s like saying you know Plato because you read Socrates.
You said it, translation. This channel thrives off translation mistakes but that does not discredit the Torah. To think one mistake discredits the entire wisdom given is a reflection of your ability to understand and comprehend high level knowledge. 😆👍🏼
@@DC-cg2jp The way I interpreted this translation is that these so called “sacred” texts had lost its association to the divine. It’s such a harsh translation from a scroll to a sickle. I’m glad to see these people picked up on the royal propaganda when the Septuagint was written. 😂🤘🏻
@@DC-cg2jp Yeah baby! That’s the feedback I like to hear. Instead of some ridiculous apologetic mental gymnastics pitch. I may not have academic qualifications but I surely study books and take courses from these wonderful people that do have these qualifications. Social media doesn’t require qualifications last I’ve heard. Have a great evening. 🤘🏻
@@Cloudryder read the Tanakh bruhv. Learn Hebrew and go directly to the Hebrew Scriptures. These kids channels only by focus on New Testament Greek translations. I’m speaking for the Torah. Everyone is recycling jokes about the transitions but that doesn’t discredit the Torah.
Hello! Do you happen to have debates with other sects of Christianity that don’t subscribe to sola scriptural theology like Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy, both of which rely on church tradition in addition to scripture as authoritative and supplement their understanding of Christian faith with the writings of well-respected philosophers such as Thomas Aquinas and St. Augustine? I ask because I can understand why many Christians who are raised with the fundamentalist sola scripture mentality go away from the faith once they get to college and can’t reconcile intellectualism with Christianity. I have, however, found that in academia many of my friends convert to Catholicism or some other Orthodox faith to reconcile intellectualism, philosophy, etc with a belief in God. I think someone like Bishop Barron or Trent Horn would be very interesting guests on your show, if you have not debated or interviewed them yet!
For those genuinely seeking truth, it's essential to recognize that what we witness today is not unprecedented. Similar debates and denials have unfolded throughout history, from ancient Israel to the time of Christ, where scholars, Pharisees, and political leaders disregarded evidence and truth. The existence of Israel itself is undeniable, as are the ongoing battles in the region, prompting us to question why some deny Israel's heritage or the shared ancestry claimed by Arabs and Jews alike. Human nature often leads us to perceive and believe what aligns with our preconceptions and biases, a phenomenon exacerbated by modern media's dissemination of conflicting narratives, as witnessed in recent political events. This begs the question: Is there an objective truth, or are we merely subject to the agendas of those in power? The attempt to discredit the Bible is not new, yet it overlooks the fundamental question of whether truth itself exists. Despite the proliferation of alternative theories and prophecies, the Bible remains a timeless source of wisdom, its truths enduring despite attempts to deconstruct or reinterpret them. Many who challenge the Bible lack a foundational understanding of its teachings, often driven more by skepticism than genuine inquiry. While some subjects may indeed be complex, particularly for those without a deep theological background, the existence of spiritual adversaries and societal divisions reaffirms the Bible's relevance in today's world. The rise of secularism and social movements should not come as a surprise, as predicted societal shifts align with biblical prophecies of a "falling away" from religion. However, rejecting biblical truths in favor of popular ideologies highlights society's susceptibility to manipulation and deception. While skepticism may lead some to discount the Bible's authority, the absence of belief in God does not negate the existence of moral absolutes or societal norms. The universality of concepts such as right and wrong, theft, and the sanctity of life underscores the enduring relevance of biblical principles in shaping ethical behavior, inviting all of us to participate in this shared understanding. Ultimately, embracing or rejecting the Bible's teachings carries profound consequences, challenging individuals to confront the possibility of divine judgment and eternal consequences. Skeptics may dismiss such warnings as coercion, yet pursuing truth demands sincere reflection and critical examination of one's beliefs. In a world where truth is increasingly subjective and malleable, individuals must exercise discernment and humility in their quest for understanding. Rather than succumbing to societal pressures or intellectual trends, we must anchor our beliefs in timeless truths that transcend human whims and fashions. In conclusion, the attempts to discredit the Bible and undermine its authority are nothing new, reflecting age-old struggles between truth and deception. While skeptics may seek to redefine reality according to their own preferences, the enduring relevance of biblical principles serves as a steadfast anchor in an ever-changing world. Let us approach these debates with open hearts and minds, seeking truth above all else, for therein lies the path to genuine enlightenment and understanding.
Daniel says three things; 1- He himself did not understand what the prophecies mean. 2- The book could not be understood until the time of the end was here. 3- Only the genuine true followers of God would understand but not until at the time of the end. So all discussion of Daniel will avail nothing.
@@thedude0000 {I've read it and written papers on it. It's quite apparent that you did not watch the video...} Yes, you've got me there, I didn't watch the video. The video is 44 mins long. The speakers were just fluffing about with chitty chat & I was not wanting to waste time & chew through data listening to that. I admit, I did get a bit impatient. So I thought I would just make a fundamental observation re Daniel & prophecy which many people seem to be blissfully unaware of. Your following response, indicates you may be one of them. {I've seen some mental gymnastics defending the Book of Daniel, but you just took the gold medal."} This is what I said; "Daniel says three things; 1- He himself did not understand what the prophecies mean. 2- The book could not be understood until the time of the end was here. 3- Only the genuine true followers of God would understand but not until at the time of the end. So all discussion of Daniel will avail nothing." I was going to cite verses in support of my claims, but you of all people should be able to tell me what the relevant verses are and should be able to demonstrate they don't say what I claim. So, I'll leave it up to you.
Sadly in c. 1947 an Egyptian retrieved from a Judaean Bedouin rifling through cave 2 (?) came across a copy of Daniel 1-12 with a line by line ‘pesher’ commentary inserted after each 1 or 2 verses (‘Interpreted, this refers to v.g. the Wicked Priest who attacked the Teacher upon Yom Kippur’ ..&c.) forming a fat, long single 60-foot scroll which was eventually brought to jazz-pianist cum CIA operative working out of his office in Damascus = ‘Miles Copeland Jr’ born in 1916) whose wife who held archaeology degrees swore up and down for 25 years after his death that her husband & several junior photographic CIA operatives had gone to the roof of their Damascus office building to ‘get enough sunlight’ to photograph the opened scroll and made TWO high resolution Colour photographs of all 60-feet of this invaluable scroll (causing some of the ‘edges to blow away like large pieces of ash in a stiff wind’ (!!!) BUT…after having shewn some of the photographs to the American Embassy in Beirut representing large sections of the text for translation to be given to ancient-language experts to decipher (‘which my husband was told was written both in Hebrew & in Aramaic’ though he could not read it himself because the script was very cramped & largely in Aramaic which he was not able to read or translate with any ease of comprehension’). His wife swore on her Bible that soon after not only the scroll itself but also BOTH Colour photos of the complete scroll mysteriously (ahem) ‘disappeared without a trace’ from our bedroom where they had been stored…where they ended up she could not say for sure - She was only able to state that her late husband suspected the Jesuits working secretly as spies for the Ecole Biblique who had recently ‘taken over’ the Dead Sea scrolls publishing project placing ONLY Roman Catholics in charge of piecing-together then translating what was found ‘careful not to publish anything without express permission of the Ecole that might impinge upon the image of our Lord Jesus’ - NB: the only non-Catholic on the original Ecole Biblique Dead Sea Scrolls translation team was the great Manchester & Oxford linguist John Marco Allegro (an avowed atheist) who rapidly published ALL the fragments given to him in 1960 (including ‘The Copper Scroll’ & ‘A Genesis Apocryphon’ & a pile of ‘pesherim [4Q158 to 4Q186 & layer 4Qpesher Nahum] fragments of commentaries on select verses’) without ‘express permission’ (especially the ‘copper scroll’ from cave 3) and soon fell afoul of the Ecole Biblique and peremptorily asked ‘to leave’ the group…confiscating the scrolls he held in his own possession… Where the full scroll of the pesherDaniel may be hiding in some hidden (Vatican ?) underground safe is not known - it would be VERY interesting if these original Miles-Copeland Colour photos of the original 60-foot intact scroll ever came to light in toto-without any Vatican shenanigans like ‘removing any passages embarrassing to the Holy Mother Church’ - maybe someone reading this comment may ‘know something others do not know’ about them…
Unbelievably without substance on anything but the Apocrypha. Arrogant and smug. After watching this I'm stronger in my belief that Daniel is literally who Jesus says he is, a prophet (Matt 24:15). Also, see Ezekiel's opinion of Daniel as a contemporary (Ezek 14:14, 20; 28:3). Ezekiel was written c. 592-570 B.C. Daniel: c.537 B.C. Three biased secular scholars who made no point about anything except their own acerbic unbelief. They are still quite young; maybe wisdom can still be found, if they look in the right places. .
No hate but I really wish you’d tone down your titles. When I share these with Christians, they’re often immediately put off by how the titles look. Again no hate just my opinion
As ever, incisive scholarship cuts straight through pathetic apologetics. Btw, I did the voice over for the prayer of Nabonidas in Kipp's show - but there wasn't the space in that one to explain more about him ... Thanks for all the extra info now 🙂
Book of Daniel doesn't have much bearing for Christian believers. Its like fillers in an episode of a series, the real meat or the climax would be "did the resurrection occurred?" .. Mic drop
If the prophecies are a problem or an attempt to trick us... Eaven if we ignore that it is a fraud and again the prophecies are not correct. We can freely give them that they were written before the event, and again, as such, they are not perfect. Do we even need to talk about resurrection?
I believe this is the first time that I've ever seen Dr. Josh not wearing a bowtie. In all seriousness Dr. Kip and Dr. Josh discussing the book of Daniel was so informational. Derek, thanks for this long discussion format.
What's interesting is that there is not (yet) a smoking gun for an early Daniel. We have copies that are (probably) decades later... but we don't know for sure. The Greek translation is (probably) decades later, but again we don't know for sure. The Ezekiel reference to someone named Daniel is not clear at all. The Josephus quote about Alexander seeing a copy of Daniel dates 400 years after the fact, and is highly suspect. The language dating arguments are far from clear. There are legitimate explanations for how a 4th/3rd century "Daniel" would have known about Belshazzar. (There is an evangelical argument that a late Daniel certainly would have no knowledge of this guy's name, as he was seemingly forgotten by history until 1854.) Here is a quote that really impressed me Anthony Bevan, Daniel Kindle loc 340 "Daniel is passed over in utter silence until late 2nd century BC… We could refute, from Jewish literature, anyone who asserted that Isaiah or Jeremiah was composed in the 2nd century BC. (loc 385) The more we realize how vast and profound [and how sudden] was the influence of Daniel in post-Maccabean times, the more difficult it is to believe that the book existed previously for four centuries without exercising any perceptible influence whatsoever. [In the 2nd century BC, all the sudden clear Daniel references started to appear. See James Montgomery (not James Montgomery Boice), Daniel - Kindle loc. 680.]
You can study the prophecy and when you see, that the book predicts the future - not until the time of Antiochus Epiphanes, who is forced into the prophecy by modern churches - but until our time, you can decide, whether it is reliable or not. The 4th empire cannot be Greece, it must be Rome. And out of Rome came the Antichrist, who is the papacy, which fits the description in Daniel 7 and Revelation 13. Persecuted the saints, blasphemed God, changed times and laws, had power for 1260 years (3.5 prophetic timess = 1260 proph. days; a day equals a year, Ezekiel 4:6; Numbers 14:34) from 538 to 1798, received a mortal wound, was healed, and has the title Vicarivs Filii Dei, which adds up to 666. Based upon that, I believe, that the book is reliable.
@@Dovahkiin0117 A little clarification: The 1260 years are not about the Roman empire, they are about the papacy and come from Daniel 7:25, the 3.5 symbolic times (3.5 years). We know, that the 3.5 symbolic times are 1260 symbolic days, because we have 3.5 times, 42 months and 1260 days explicitly mentioned multiple times in Revelation chapters 11-13. But we can check it by using maths: A prophetic year has 360 days, a prophetic month has 30 days. 3.5 years are 12+12+12+6=42 months and 3.5×360=1260 or 42×30=1260 days. So the number of 1260 days is secured. But because Daniel 2, 7, 8, 11 and 12 and the whole book of Revelation are prophetic passages, we have to apply the day-year principle found in Ezekiel 4:6 and Numbers 14:34, so that one prophetic day equals one real year, so the 3.5 prophetic times or 1260 prophetic days are 1260 real years. Now, that we know how to get them, let's apply them: Justinian issued a decree, making the Pope head over all churches. But this decree was useless for the Pope, because Rome was under siege by the Ostrogoths. But when the Ostrogoths were driven away by the Eastern Roman forces in 538, the Pope started exercising the power, that Justinian legally gave to him. So 538 is our starting date. 1260 years bring us to February of 1798, when Pope Pius the 6th was captured by the French army under Napoleon's general Berthier, and the papacy received its "mortal wound", which would later be healed (Revelation 13:3).
The story of the person going into the back of the temple and finding a new law is in Deuteronomy. In the book itself, it says that the high priest found a "long lost" text in the temple and then read it to the king.
2nd Kings 22. There is a public reading of the law toward the end of Deuteronomy, but finding it in the temple and reading it to the king (Josiah) is in 2nd Kings 22 (and copied in 2nd Chron 34).
I think it's fascinating how every other source of a particular story is plausible but we must always doubt the reliability of the Bible for some reason. Can someone tell me why?
"Plausible" in what sense? They aren't suggesting other ancient myths actually happened as written; they're explaining the evolution of storytelling that led to the books we have today.
@@davesfriendhal It always seems that the stories worth remembering are in the Bible but the narrative is that somehow the biblical stories are not true because some other similar stories are more plausible. It just seems more plausible that the Biblical stories are true because they stood the test of time. The other ones are fictional or a little distorted. Seems more obvious to me that people before us would have wanted the truth to be preserved.
@@remainhumble6432 You seem to be starting off from the very dangerous position of assuming a story is true or meant to reflect a literal lived experience. You also seem to be assuming that's what other people believe when they are critical and point out literary sources. But maybe Im misunderstanding you. I'm not sure where they do what you're talking about in the video.
34:10 DUDE! I had some door-to-door Jesus salesmen show up at my place the other day and that is EXACTLY what I did! 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 Even better, I told them about the history! 'cause I f'n read Dr. Bowen's book! And then I said, hey, isn't the only good thing about kings that we got rid of them!? 🤣
I don’t agree with all the conclusions but I found it interesting and learned several things. I find it interesting that the panel glossed over the fact that at least a portion of the book was admittedly dated to very early 2nd century AD and despite Kipp’s admission that it was a problem for the late dating of the book, it was never seriously addressed other than postulating that it could be an autograph copy. I think this remains a fairly big issue for a second century date. The panel even admits if you move it back another 50 years (from the carbon date of 185 BC) it becomes impossible to agree with the current skeptical hypothesis. Another component not addressed is there have been several analysis of the form of Aramaic used in those portions of Daniel that find it more consistent with 5th ish century BC Aramaic not 4-2nd CenturyBC. Given Kipp’s background I expected him to at least give his opinion or try and refute these studies. Finally, there are other alternatives to the formation hypothesis including parallel texts that were written as normal stories/literature ..ie similar to “fan fiction” that used Biblical figures that the people at the time would have known to not be “scripture” but still read and appreciated. There are other examples that are known at the time and we have plenty of modern examples today. 2000 years ago someone looking back would be wrong to conclude that Jesus Christ superstar or Life of Brian were considered gospel stores take seriously by 21st century Christians. Additionally, there could be an older Aramaic portion of the text that does date to 5th century that had more recent Hebrew texts added to it. That would make it a potentially corrupted text but not necessarily an out right forgery.
The contradictions in the Bible are no problem for most people. There are a handful of people who feel it necessary to justify their existence like William Lane Craig who care.
There are numerous contradictions in the Bible that would make it an unreliable authority. If a book contains false statements then it loses its authenticity. How can one trust the scriptures if its authenticity is in question?
THis is funny!!!!! If Bidden has aged beyond a sound mine then blame Trump for the same thing!!!!!!! One of the strongest biblical profs, state as its problem, FUNNY!!!!!!!!!!!!
It's intriguing to see a shelf lined with books in the background, hinting at a depth of knowledge and insight. However, mere education only sometimes guarantees an understanding of truth. Reflecting on your journey, the root issue lies not in a lack of salvation, as some may suggest, but rather in the absence of truth from the outset. To suggest that you were "never saved" might not accurately capture the essence of your experience. Instead, it's more apt to assert that genuine salvation couldn't have taken root without the foundational truth. Hence, the feeling of drifting away isn't so much a falling from grace but a realization that you never possessed what you thought you had. This realization unveils a sobering truth about many churches today: they often fall short in imparting the fundamental truths essential for genuine spiritual growth. It's not a matter of deliberate deceit but rather a lack of depth in teaching the foundational truths that underpin authentic faith. Your journey serves as a poignant reminder of the importance of seeking and embracing truth. It's not merely about surface-level knowledge or religious rituals but rather about diving deep into the core truths that transform lives. As you continue your quest for truth, may it lead you to a deeper understanding and a more profound experience of genuine salvation.
That could have been said in as little as 4 sentences, no need for AI expansion. Keep your comment up tho it’s hilarious and works great to get this video up in the algorithm
I'm still waiting for the "MASSIVE problem." There are many well credentialed scholars who have arrived at various and diverse conclusions regarding the variety of textual, compositional and linguistic issues with Daniel. You gentlemen ooze contempt and arrogance toward those who disagree with you.
I can imagine the Babylonian Empire to have been multilingual as Europe is nowadays. One would expect Daniel to be multilingual in his position, anyway. Perhaps the book of Daniel wasn’t penned entirely by Daniel, anyways BTW, I find it arrogant from modern scholars to think they know more than the authors of the bible. I am sure many modern scholars look stupid compared to them
Jesus said, The reason I was born and came to this world is to testify to the truth (John 18 :37). Jesus said, I have spoken openly to the world. I always taught in synagogues or at the temple, where all the Jews come together. I said nothing in secret. Why question Me? Ask those who heard Me. Surely they know what I said (John 18:20-21).
I have read the Bible completely through many times. I have more of a problem with Revelation. But, given the miraculous images on the Holy Shroud, such "problems" seem irrelevant. MythVision is clueless.
LOL! Dream on and enjoy your fantasy while you can, Derek and co. Since, after all, nothing says disastrous inattention like historical and biblical criticism, its Achilles Heel. And nothing shows that more clearly and unmistakably than your view of Daniel, especially chapter 2, the key to all other endtime prophecies. (Get it wrong, and you get the rest wrong.) Since, after all, if Media were the intended 2nd kingdom, and Persia the 3rd, the intended 5th kingdom would be a divided Greece, not the Seleucid Empire. Which you only brazenly pick, while brazenly disregarding the former, because you foolishly and disastrously presuppose materialism/naturalism, uniformitarianism, and “transitional” forms and falsely assume the little horn is Antiochus Epiphanes IV. Yeah. Dream on. What a rude awakening you’re in for.
The real question is , why does Josh Bowen’s wife not solely convince after all these knowledge and Arguments from her husband and her own studies? Same as Bart Erman, I’m truly struggling with the fact that Josh’s wife remains a Christian with all this so-called knowledge. It’s all coming across as if these scholars are merely trying to make a name for themselves.
👑🌍🌍👑🌍Where there is code, there is Intelligence (God Almighty), DNA is code. you don't need to see in color to survive, nor do you need taste to survive. these gifts are for us to enjoy life that much more. These life gifts can never come about by any random selection.
Really, look at how LDS believe JS, no matter the contemporary reports in his own lifetime... just like Jews, but their own speical "I was born a Mormon because I was a faithful warrior in the war of Heaven.
Video commentators talked alot about text outside of the book of Daniel... it was not convincing for or against the book of Daniel being written 600bc or 200 bc .they agreed Daniel was historical figure. He was known for being intelligent and bi- lingual so argument saying that Aramaic writings in part and Hebrew writing in part is not good enough to suggest differences or hundreds of years in txt rather than maybe a life time... The prophecys ring mysterious and true if you are Christian and I'm sure they seem added and impossible if atheist.. at end if video new carbon dating of oldest txt could suggest back to author signature... but if suggested older than by carbon dating was not to be trusted. Just shows double standards, bias, and free will we have to believe or not to believe. Daniel for sure one of the best books of old testament.
It appears that later on all the stories and visions of Daniel were brought together. If you have visions then one would try to put them together in a logical manner and failing because his visions aren’t linear …using an implied linear flow and drawing conclusions from them of not being put together linearly is actually instead the most logical outcome. How does one put visions together if they are fragmentary in the first place? This is not that complicated. I would view them on an individual chapter basis rather than attempting to make the same sweeping categorical errors and mistakes at a point even further along in time and present day without first acknowledging the already exiting nonlinear nature of visions to interpret from in the first place. These Authors are merely detailing nonsense! Even the book of Revelations is not linear once you start constructing a time line this becomes apparent.. John was in the spirit as Ezekiel was moving in both time and space and these are not cereal visions but they overlap and are out of order as well. Jews thought in cycles and Greeks try to impress a linear pattern just as these authors do without understanding it’s inherent nonlinear nature. So there is vast room for improving upon their unfortunate liner thinking processes.
6 месяцев назад
huumm? 21 The shaggy goat is the king of Greece, and the large horn between its eyes is the first king. 22 The four horns that replaced the one that was broken off represent four kingdoms that will emerge from his nation but will not have the same power.
I enjoy a lot of these podcasts. But I feel they are directed more at fundamentalist (Biblical inerrancy) Christians. Seems that most of those who have flipped to atheism that are guests on here came out of those type of denominations.
He mentions critics of Daniel go back to Porphyry, but Porphyry was the first critic of Daniel, his writings called "Against Christians" lol, no bias right, was based on the idea that prophecy cant be true. Not exactly a great foundation to base your critique.
If the prophecies are a problem or an attempt to trick us. Even we can ignore that fact and let it be that they were written when the authors claim. They are not accurate, let alone perfect. Is it crazy that they try to convince us of resurrection after obvious frauds on much smaller things?
Let me state that I do not worship any book . I love the freely use of the word "scholars" as if scholars are the only humans that have a handle on truth? And scholars are the only humans that do not have a set standard of criteria or accomplishment. to join their ranks. LMAO
Sure, Nebuchadnezzar had a lot of good policies, and he was very equal opportunity when it came to dream interpretation solicitation, and I hate to speak ill of someone who had a mental breakdown, but I just can't support any king who lets a dragon hang around in Babylon. Sure, mock me for being a single issue voter, but my stance will remain firmly anti-dragon!
They seem confused. There are two dream interpretations; in one, it shows Lion (Babylon), Bear with one side raised up (Media-Persia), Leopard with four wings (Greece), and then a fearsome beast with iron teeth and ten horns (Rome?). This is Daniel 7. In Daniel 8, it shows a ram that's killed by a goat. It explicitly states "the ram that you saw represents the kings of Media and Persia. 21 The shaggy goat is the king of Greece, and the large horn between its eyes is the first king. 22 The four horns that replaced the one that was broken off represent four kingdoms that will emerge from his nation but will not have the same power." It does not contain any creature besides the goat. So Daniel 7 describes Babylon, Media-Persia, Greece, and Rome(?) or some unknown empire, but it DOES NOT label these empires. This is my own labelling Daniel 8 describes Media-Persia and Greece, and it DOES label these empires in the text. However, it does not describe another empire.
lol what i don’t get about the daniel prophecy is wouldn’t the people around jesus’ time also have the book of daniel and be looking for the fulfillment of the prophecy? in that’s case of course you would have a ton of would-be messiahs popping up
Yes, and there were. Josephus records many, Jesus said they would pop up and they did. At the time of Jesus there was a lot of anxiousness about this, it ultimately led to the destruction of Jerusalem, as the Jews crucified the real Messiah.
My preacher dad took daniel as gospel, But had to include a time jump where Antiochus Epiphanies Was really a future despot 2k years later that would invade a new jewish temple and bring about the tribulation. But maybe it was just a failed prediction from the second century bc. hmmm....
Guys, you need to focus. I know you share a wealth of information but you must try and reel it in. I'm fifteen minutes into the discussion and it's making me feel like I'm back in college listening to a lecture on Logic. There was a language switch. Okay. Got it. That could have been said just as I said it. "There was a language switch. And that was just one issue another was...". Please stop trying to impress your audience with the depth of your vocabulary.
