i agree because it has the audience thinking who's method works better when it comes to dealing with criminals Same with civil war it got you questioning whether the avengers need to be controlled by government or given free reign to do what they want
i am gutted that Dawn of Justice was not like this Snyder fucked up Batman v Superman 3 years of build up and that is what fans were given as a result the Ultimate edition was slightly better but the main fault was the script and Snyder is at fault becuse he authorized that script to be used for the movie i fear for JL this year due to him being the one that directed it
Right? That movie could have been about the debate of revenge vs justice, and where the line is drawn and how we define each. But it was bogged down with just poor pacing. I hope JL is at least a good action movie.
Jon Bernthal is perfect as “The Punisher” hopefully he’ll be back in future MCU movies, marvel has stated they wanted him and Charlie cox to return their roles.
this is why I need MCU to dive into street level stuff way more, outside of someone like Spider-Man you wouldn't get this type of dialogue with the Avengers or anyone else lmaoo
@@storm5ds68 i mean all of their villains are crazy psychopaths' to a being out of this world, for the avengers, yeah you try to do "humanely talk" to Thor go ahead, like the only normal convo of the avengers is Stark and Rogers ramble in Age of Ultron while their breaking logs at Clints house.
@@storm5ds68 the avengers aren’t like this in the comics, they deal with people who constantly try to do something to the planet or the universe. You can’t always just sit down and have a philosophical argument with someone when they have an army trying to kill people.
@@hyphen6025 Sometimes that can be good as it fits certain characters as that's what they do but other times, Marvel movies can go WAY over board with that.
@@hyphen6025 There were jokes but they fit the character. Such as Santa Claus joke. Punisher has a very blunt personality so flipping off Daredevil with something so traditional fits him.
@@kaana8421 The Santa line isnt really a joke. Its a saying , comparing hope to a fantasy. A recent MCU joke wouldve been some goofy statement to undercut all the tension.
Well technically this scene is fan service as it is ripped directly from a punisher comic. It's almost an exact replication but yeah this scene is phenomenal and another great scene is the graveyard where Frank and daredevil talk.
Here's the problem with Daredevil's argument: yes, some people deserve a second chance, but what message does that send to future criminals who wanna commit heinous crimes? It shows that people can get a 2nd chance and maybe do the same heinous act against an innocent person. Frank's argument makes more sense because of the message it sends: You a rapist, pedophile, etc? You're gonna go in the morgue. No questions. It prevents, or atleast makes people think twice about doing those sort of crimes ever.
Yep. And when Daredevil called Frank insane at the end, I noticed how both sides are partially right. Insanity is repeating the same thing over and over, expecting a different outcome. That’s precisely what Daredevil does; he has the same people arrested or injured (or killed, in Nobu’s case), and it doesn’t work, yet he continues to do it, expecting a different outcome.
@@That_1_BohemianYeah but we created insanity as a definition. Think about what would actually help civilization. Get rid of the evil "another definition we created" and you'll live an easier life, if that's what you want.
@@ras523sar "when does someone come for you to get justice?" Who desides when someone is evil? And how do you prevent it from being an excuse? Daredevil is right, you cant kill because some "bad" people are redeemable and can/or are good people. It's impossible to know. This version of Frank is emotionally unstable and mentally unhealthy. FURY is a 7 deadly sin for a reason, it doesn't justify your actions.
@@That_1_Bohemiano if someone is shooting old women and the police kill them it's unjustified because the killer might have turned their life around? You're forgetting that in the real world if you attempt to kill someone or hurt them in any way shape or form that you're life is forfeit. If you don't believe that someone who takes lives by force and unjustly has the right to have their life taken by force then you're insane. I guess in you're opinion we should just release all the lifers in prison or release people on death row or all the rapists back into society so that they might try and not harm others by default.
Yknow, something tells me that Frank, even as The Punisher is still a Soldier longing for death after the shit he'd been through, at least that's what I got from that line... it's kinda sad...
The way they make their characters sound like they’re actually having an argument instead of repeating memorized lines is amazing. Two amazing, severely underrated actors
You're so godamn right. Even with all the publicity they've gotten in recent years - Bernthal in Punisher, Walking Dead, Shot Caller, The Unforgivable and Charlie Cox in Daredevil, Theory of Everything, Legacy... Even with all of that, these guys are so fucking criminally underrated it's ridiculous. One thing Marvel Netflix did impossibly well, better than pretty much any other superhero franchising - the casting.
@@alexwyckoff8962 Marvel has some insane luck with casting, Im telling ya. Their casting department should be set for life from Disney, their work is that good. The entire first avengers cast, Tom Holland, Charlie Cox, John Bernthal, Vincent D'Onofrio, the entire Gaurdians of the Galaxy crew, both 1 and 2, etc.
Afflicted15 Both metaphorically and literally. Matt is blind literally, but also does not see that some people are beyond redemption, while Frank is a veteran literally, but also has experience in seeing that pure evil exists, and that evil will never change
not everyone is capable of redemption, but some people are. If someone kills your family etc, and you kill that person, personally I wouldnt blame you for it (even though you probably... shouldnt..) But that doesnt mean that objectively that person is incapable of becoming better, or that that person didnt have a reason to do what they did. Even if it's just that they were paid to do it, as disgusting as that might be. Or in Frank's case, if your family just got in the way of a gang fight (which he thinks is what happened). There's no way that out of the lets say 100 people Punisher kills, every single one of them is an evil rotten bastard down to their core, even if one out of 100 of them really is. You can't know that if you were under the same circumstances you wouldnt have been a criminal yourself. You cant know what lead them down that path, or what they would do if they were given a way out. It's not like he's exclusively going after the big crime bosses either, everyone is fair game to him. Of course in a life or death situation you dont have time to contemplate everyone's sob story, but the Punisher basically goes out of his way to kill people and he's proud of it too.
While that's possible that redemption can occur you have to remember that they stole someone else's life and opportunities to grow. They aren't more worthy of life than the people they killed. Even if they could change they forfeit that chance when they steal it from others. If you kill an innocent you don't deserve the second chance you didn't give them. It's not just about killing. There will always be a difference between killing an innocent person and an evil person.
92Beyo I gotta disagree with you. I think Matt's argument was kind of ridiculous. About hope and light in ppl. You're not gonna change Frank's mind with any type of spiritual shit lol. But I guess it depends on your point of view.
I know right? It's like the director just said. Okay daredevil defend this opinion and punisher defend the other, after about 2 minutes and 50 seconds punch daredevil.
I believe the director told them that the scene had to flow in the most natural way possible. I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out that Cox and Bernthal improvised their lines.
This is why I'm kinda excited yet scared of the Daredevil joining the Disney+ Shows because I'm kinda curious how they'll handle this but also nervous if they would ruin it. I'll just hope for the best. It's Marvel after all. Things usually work out sooner or later.
@@musyrifo it’s marvel after all?? Bruh I don’t think you’ve been paying attention to marvel at all. Phase 4 is a joke, literally everything in marvel is a joke. Every piece of dialogue is. Every action scene cuts away to some joke. Plus it’s not hard to see the political agendas / woke aspect.
To be honest, I'd be with the Punisher on this one, because do you know what question I would ask Daredevil? How long do innocent people have to grieve and fear for themselves and their loved ones while you wait for evil men to find redemption?
@@JazzyUnderscoreTrumpeter Yeah sometimes people just see too much of the bad things than recognising the good things. The world isn't black and white and not everyone who did wrong was bad and redemption was possible in very bad people too. But Frank is also right about it that sometimes it's just too late to fix it and going back. There are people who will never be able to change or becoming better sometimes at the end of an day they just smile and laugh at others even if they are going to die
@@JazzyUnderscoreTrumpeter For an example look at batman. A lot of things could have been avoided if he just have got rid of the Joker who definitely can't be fixed.
@@JazzyUnderscoreTrumpeter What makes vigilantes who won't kill unrealistic isn't that regular people DON'T believe in not killing, even criminals. Obviously most people have that moral fiber. What makes it unrealistic is that yes, lots of people wouldn't believe in killing, but virtually ALL OF THOSE PEOPLE would never feel the need for vengeance against criminals that is required to become a vigilante. Likewise anyone with enough burning vengeance against criminals, would find it also REMARKABLY difficult to not kill the worst of them. So, I don't see ANYONE 'shitting' on DDs convictions. I see people remarking on the serious implausibility of a VIGILANTE who risks his life and serious jail time, to punish criminals, and then also will only punish them so much, and stop before risking their lives. It's more unrealistic than most of what else happens in these shows. That's all.
@@freighttrain7143 respectfully, I've seen many people just outright say that DD is being an immature idiot. His way is obviously less pragmatic, but the reason he believes what he believes and acts the way he acts is super important for his character. I see people dismissing him completely because he doesn't do things Frank's way. I love their dichotomy, and it's not really an argument with an easy answer. I don't think it's inaccurate while going through multiple comments sections to say that people are outright shitting on his convictions. They're free to do so, obviously, it just annoys me to see, and I'm clearly in the minority. I appreciated the comment I replied to because it was one of the few reasonably worded ones I could find. Thanks for the thoughtful response. 🙏
+Max Frankow enlisted men spend a lot of time answering questions lazer quick to sgts. If you spend a few years doing something consistently you would become good at it.
That's because he's right, evil people don't deserve the slightest sympathy. They prey on the weak and people like Frank (i.e. the police,military,and sheepdog civillians) prey on them.
"Wanna talk about santa claus?" I don't know how they do it so well, but I love the way they manage to make it a serious conversation/debate about whether or not murder can be justified, while also being subtly funny in a way that doesn't feel forced or like the writers were expecting the audience to wet themselves laughing.
Daredevil dropped both "you're insane" and "I'll take you down"... lol all they needed was an instance of swapping "kill" with "destroy" and they'd have the trifecta of classic cartoony hero-villain banters. Any yet hey, to their credit, they still pulled it off!
@@matheuscruz8574 if I remember correctly Frank said it first in the Punisher meets Daredevil comic a while back by Frank Miller. I don't know the source so you'd have to look it up.
Alex USTP I’m glad that I wasn’t the only person that seen how The Punisher versus Daredevil debate is similar to how people that support death penalty versus the people that are against the death penalty.
If it was your love one depends on your believe cause some want them forever in jail and some want them dead it should be left to the victims families if they live or die
@@DoctorDewgong average goody two shoes daredevil thinking things in life are like in tv shows that everyone can be fixed,hope? lol ask about hope to the victims of criminals the only hope u gonna get is for the criminals to pay one way or another
One underrated thing in this scene that also should be worth mentioning is how Frank is not trying to convince Matt but make Matt UNDERSTAND his reasons. He even tells him that “I’m not a bad guy red”. The problem is the trauma Frank holds onto mixed with the fact he isn’t necessarily FULLY wrong about the ideals of criminals and how easy it is for them to get out and to strike again. It’s just the way he handles it.
@@johnLennon255 ehhh, not much. to understand is to realise the place where which the opinion falls from. to convince to change the actions based off what is said
@@johnLennon255no, kinda like with Thanos in Infinity War. We understand why Thanos believes that he need to wipe out half the life in the universe. But do you agree with what he's doing? Kinda like that. Understand his motives but don't agree with them.
@@tauhid9983 It was a Punisher line in one of his early appearances from the 80s (in a Frank Miller Daredevil comic), then a Joker line, then a Punisher line again.
@@geoffreysorkin5774 shit I didn't know. I doubt alan moore copied it from frank miller or anything lol. But I guess that's the running theme with bad guys eh? lol
Frank: I'm a better father than you! Matt: What? Frank: You got a broken woman, a weak boy, look around and see what you've caused Matt: Now hang on a second
So did Daredevil whose father was murdered and he lost his eyesight. That didn't make him bitter. He saw the difference between vengeance and justice and chose to do the right thing. If he wanted, he could be far more deadlier than Punisher. Would have brought the entire mob and mafia of New York to their knees single handedly but he chose not to.
@@MrMadhusudhan45 totally different. Matt's dad died when he was blind and he was a kid. Still innocent. Frank was already a grown man in the military and had his family brutally murdered in front of him.
Let's check out more comics information: • Elektra died in front of him and thar didn't made him bitter (ok, just a little, but he didn't turned into a Punisher) • Karen died in front of him • Foggy "died" in front of him • Blindspot (he is like a son to DD) was blinded by a serial killer in "front" of him (he hearded everything) • Milla Donovan got crazy little by little in front of him • Heather Glenn committed suicide after a phone call with him • His personal life was literally destroyed on Born Again • He broke up with Kirsten McDuffie on a terrible way • He was possessed by a demon and had to "kill" himself for stopping him All of this and much more are daredevil's life tragedies, and he never turned up to what Frank is. Daredevil is a character *made* for being destroyed and *always* get up. That's the main difference about Daredevil and Punisher: Red gets up, Frank stays down.
"You can't stop crime. That's what you never understood. I'm controlling it. You wanna rule them by fear, but what do you do with the ones who aren't afraid?" - Red Hood
Why is it that I get the feeling that Batman just wants to play cat and mouse with criminals? Like he just throws them in prison knowing they'll go back and boom, he's got another game night again to satisfy his desires to take them out. Damn the victims of these criminals, the bat wants to play.
@@user-ko5ul7yi1x more like batman trying to fix the system by the book with his only friend Jim in a f*cked up city. Both of them trust each other to the core and know both of them won't crack. If they did that means they lost the self righteousness to protect the city. He know murder is a crime that is the end and non redeemable. Plus batman is a detective not an executioner. If he wants to play the cat and mouse, he wouldn't have helped a lot of villians to redeem themselves and become productive to the city for the greater good.
@@carenthusiasm345 "he wouldn't have helped a lot of villians to redeem themselves and become productive to the city for the greater good." *Joker exists*
"What happens the day someone decides you deserve it?" "Tell you what, they better not miss." The fantastic discussion aside, this line always cracked me up.
He is self-aware, he knows that he has done some bad shit, torture, killing innocents especially during his stint in Kandahar, and he blames himself for the death of his family. Ultimately, he believes that he deserves to be punished as well and to be put down. But until that day comes, he is gonna take all the beatings the world gonna give him, and kill all the degenerates on his way to his own demise.
@Avenging Demon no. Its very subjective. There is no right answer. Every case with different scenarios need to be looked at carefully, and then make a fair decision to both parties. But us humans are too impatient for that, so we decide the easier one, hence the law system.
@@lex_rodriguez why? Every person he kills is irredeemable, and they are sick murderers, rapists freaks. Some people deserve to die for their sins, often because they're too numerous to count. You probably live life hoping the best of people, and that's nice, I wish I could. But I can't, I've seen the shittyness of people and how they won't change. I don't think all criminals should die and I don't think all murderers should die, so do end up repenting and feeling regret and sadness at what they did. But then there are the ones who take pride in it, they deserve nothing
Metalhead2968 4 Life That’s the thing. You agree with killing but also oppose the thought of killing. That’s why this debate is subjective. There is no correct answer. You can’t have the idea of: Kill this guy because, don’t kill this guy because. They have both killed, thus both deserve punishment. Also, nearly 7/10 of humans on this doomed planet is shitty. Only on a rare occasion will you meet a genuinely kind person. Stay safe during this pandemic my good sir.
@@asterixobelix20 Who are you trying to impress with your mad grammar skills? I know you think you're better than everyone else because you end every sentence with a period but you just look like an uptight jackass to normal people
Holy crap. Writers who obviously understand the characters and who have read the source material were behind this scene. Sad that Disney has abandoned that approach with their current crop of shows.
LOL that's 100% NOT true at all as Disney writers CAN be this good as This show was made and written UNDER Disney. You do realize this WAS a disney show FOR netflix, right? And disney writers in general everywhere CAN learn and do good to do better completely and entirely for their shows as they've stated they're going to learn from what they've done to do BETTER than before.
@@Gadget-Walkmen Yeah, but people in comment sections have this insatiable need to be walking cliches and one of them involves saying "Disney bad" so they'll never admit that fact just because it contradicts their agenda and complaints even though they're still gonna watch whatever disney comes out with.
@@disturbedrenegade9815 basically yeah, Disney haters are the worst when they act like this and not realize this show came out UNDER Disney. I have no doubt disney plus is gonna make a great show for Daredevil completely!
Maybe him and Spider-Man could meet each other and they have similar argument. I mean DD and Spider-Man have the similar ideologies that go against Punisher’s
Even though i fcking dig Jon Berntal as a Punisher, deep in my heart I don't wish to see him ruined by Disney. They have no guts to make Punisher with the same rating as Netflix did. All we gonna get , is movie for kids and Chinese with 12+rate. Mark my words when they gonna ruin Daredevil. Scene from Spiderman already confirmed my concerns, it's all about fun now and nothing serious. Hawkeye , in the meantime ruined Wilson Fisk already . Scene looks like some avengers movie (explosion near character, throwback for 15 meters and hit by a car and not a single drop of blood, like nothing even happened to him) that's a Circus. P.S: even Jon Bernthal said he won't return as a Punisher unless Disney willing to make changes in ratings. He don't wana ruin his character.
@boobie maniac Only if Disney would give back filming rights to Netflix, otherwise it's gonna be horsesh.t, and Berntal knows it as a fun of Punisher character so he will not take part of ruining it.
@@hkp7240 he had a protection artifact that made the stare not work the stare would have worked if not bc of said artifact wich was a feather from an angel way,still frank has guilt..his family he blames himself for their death
why couldnt Batman v Superman have been like this as well i am a marvel and DC fan but i felt let down by DOJ tbh the ultimate edition was a bit better but i ultimately believe Zack Snyder fucked it up because it is him who has final say on the script and i still fear for JL this year with him directing it
I wished Season 2 was more like this. While I loved Elektra, her and The Hand took the spot light away from Punisher. I cared way more for Frank's revenge and his arguments with Matt than The Hand's master plan (which was underwhelming in Defenders)
While there are those that have changed, what about those that can't change their ways? Daredevil sees good in all people, which is absolutely fucking retarded. While there are those that have a POSSIBLY of changing, his logic risks innocent people's live all because of Daredevil's stupid ideology to get murdered, raped etc. While Punisher's way makes sure that no innocent person get hurt by putting down criminals that deserve to die in his point of view.
Acute Cloudd yeah SOME people really can change... but how about some that unable to? how many victim has to suffer from them before they finally change?
+Thossaphorn Asawachinachot One thing that can then complicate things even further is that if one builds a culture, where the common mindset is “once a bad guy, always a bad guy”, then this could become a self-fulfilling prophecy that increases the amount of irredeemable monsters in society, the very thing which is often provided as proof that Punisher’s methods are needed in the first place. (a bunch of extra thoughts below): If a person has done something horrible in the past, but still feels a grain of genuine guilt and conflict, then being surrounded by people who basically voice the message of “men like you can never change” is not going to help him. If anything, that might convince him even further that he cannot change, making it even more likely that he will not even try to get off of his current path. In those hypothetical cases, then that could still increase the amount of people he/she hurts before being caught/killed. Similarly, Punisher definitely has an important point when he says that the justice system is screwed up, sick with corruption, and/or inept. But at the same time, if everyone believes as he does that becoming a vigilante who executes criminals is the only choice left, then that only increases the chances of us having a future where nobody even tries to fix our justice system. In short, the justice system might become broken beyond repair, but possibly only because everyone treats it as such. It is kind of like Mary Shelley’s “Frankenstein”, with the one difference being that it involves a man/system who actually is somewhat of a monster having its destiny of becoming an even worse monster (or at least not turning good) further sealed, whereas Frankenstein’s creature actually was innocent and child-like, only to have its fate of growing into a monster be sealed by society treating him as one. I can sympathize with both of their points of view. I think what sums up the differences between Punisher and Daredevil’s mindsets is that Daredevil is willing to take a risk, for better or worse, in hopes that the door for a better society/humanity can be opened. Punisher is convinced that it is not possible for society/humanity to get much better, so he does what he feels will at least guarantee that it cannot get worse than it already is.
Acute Cloudd No, Punisher can be right. In the real world if the cops tell you surrender you do so or get shot. Matt has a point that they should *try* to bring criminals to justice, but it’s foolish to say no killing them no matter what. Sometimes it’s them or some innocent family.
That's my favorite part too. He gets hoarse . I think because he's not talking about other men. He's talking about himself too. He wants redemption for himself as well.
I think this season could’ve been perfection if they took out everything surrounding The Hand and just focused on DD and Punisher along with their moral clash
i went back to watch daredevil just for the punisher scenes, literally skipped over everything with the hand i didnt care lol punisher just meshes perfectly in this season
Their ideologies were explained perfectly in this scene: Daredevil believes that every human being, no matter how deplorable, still have some good in them, and thus should not be killed. The Punisher believes that the people he puts down have no good left in them, and thus are not worth letting live. This is why Daredevil is one of the best shows i've ever watched.
I would definitely side with Punisher on this one. The problem for fighting for Truth and Justice in the world of superhero is that the battle never ends. The hero brings the villain to jail only for the villain to go out and cause chaos once again. I think Joker from Injustice 1 said it well. "You think you can have a family. That locking me up will magically reform me. And they'll be safe. So big, so dumb."
@@arkhamknight9001 yeah, but the problem is that Punisher's methods can also end up killing innocents or create more criminals who may end up taking the place of the guys he killed. (Like a never ending cycle)
@@anjaneyasreetrout2444 sorry for the late reply just got back home from work. That is true IF there is anyone from that world that can replace the bad guys. Honestly the no-kill rule is for superheroes who are either naive or just won't see they're error. In a crossover between Marvel and DC when Punisher was about to kill the Joker, Batman arrived and just allows him to run away. In my opinion the Cons far outweighs the Pros. While people will call anti-heroes psychopaths, murderers, or among other thing. They do what no other heroes could never do. End the War between villains and heroes. Of course that is if anyone who has the guts to step up on the big table and took his/her place. Then good luck.
@@arkhamknight9001 I get your perspective, but if we’re talking about the Punisher specifically, he literally at the end of this very episode, destroys the biker gang’s bikes at the bar across the street, inciting them into charging the apartment complex full of innocents, all just to escape Daredevil who was kicking his ass. And who has to save the day? Daredevil
@@darrenwalsh5030 Exactly.That's the way it's always been in the comics,too. You can have The Punisher and Groot,Howard The Duck and Squirrel Girl and so on and so forth all exist in the same universe. I love that about comics,that you can have all of these different kinds of characters all co-exist in the same universe.
This argument has to be ONE OF the overall best dialogues in recent TV history. Excellently written, realistically delivered by DD and Punisher, containing the perfect "push and pull", tension and release..... Pure freaking gold.
The way when they talk over each other while arguing yet you can still hear them because the actors delivered their lines and gave each other room to be heard. Just wow
I like how Frank even in the middle of an argument actually says things like "Whats that?" and "What?" in a genuine manner, like whilst they totally disagree Franks still listening to him.
That's the one thing preventing it from being a realistic argument, if it was realistic they'd just be ignoring the other while they try to talk, and yell over each other the whole time. Ruined my immersion.
@@JustapErson Everything that which you’ve said and saying right now only proves and shows that YOUR WRONG in everything you’ve been saying here as EVERYTHING about the conversation and the scene was a COMPLETE “realistic argument” entirely as it was realistic as realistic can get entirely. It WAS completely realistic throughout as you don’t need to have them “jUst bE iGnOriNg tHe oThEr wHilE thEy trY tO tALk, ANd yELl oVeR eaCh oVer tHe wHoLe aRguMeNt” lol not even close no. Both Daredevil and The Punisher are INTELLIGENT men who are trying to convince each other that they’re side is the right side so they CAN’T simply “ignore each other and talk”, they need to LISTEN to each other and try to counter their arguments that which they’ve LAYED out for each other. That’s what makes the whole discussion argument between them so compelling AND realistic, because they’re both trying to RATIONALLY counter each other’s arguments with their own line of reason and makes the audience WANTS to listen to what they have to say. This is PEAK realism discussion argument between two smart people, not just two Buffon on the street having a drunk argument. It’s one of the MOST immersion gripping and engaging scene of all time and absolutely NOTHING about it “rUiNeD” ANYONE’S “immersion” in the slightest when they’re not looking for nonsensical reasons to complain about something over nothing. Lol at you BADLY saying “rUiNeD mY iMmeRsIoN”, yes because you made up a nonsensical scenario for you to ALLOW it on yourself for you to even DARE it “rUiN” ANY kind of your weak “ImMerSIoN”. It didn’t “rUiN” ANYONE else’s “immersion” at all in the slightest because EVERYONE but YOU here is sensible which you have clearly proven you are entirely not here at all based on the what you’re saying as this rooftop scene is pitch PERFECT throughout as the most immersive scene ever made in a superhero show/movie. You’re just whining for literally NO reason on trying to find something to complain about here, nothing more or else here. Just stop as you’re COMPLETELY wrong here.
1:42 - 1:48 best sequence in my opinion. Not only their arguments, but you can see how the actors did it brilliantly, interrupting, yelling at each other, agreeing that they disagree. Pure gold.
Yeah. I'm on Punisher on this that's the problem about fighting for Truth and Justice in the superhero world. The battle never ends. It's an unending game of cat and mouse with the hero bringing the villain to prison only for them to get out do the same thing again. Joker probably said it well in Injustice: God's Among Us. "You think you can have a family. That locking me up will magically reform me. And they'll be safe. So big, so dumb."
@@arkhamknight9001 yeah but you need both kinds of people. The truth is, some people can be redeemed. And that's worth it. But the number of people who are willing to do the redeeming is very small. Most people don't care about others problems. They don't believe in forgiveness. You screw up once? Your done. You had one chance and you blew it. You're beyond redemption. Most people feel that way. It takes an incredible amount of character and willpower to be the one who gives others a second chance. The problem with this philosophical debate from a superhero perspective though is that the superheros never actually do anything to help those they fight to actually become better. So the idea of killing the villain makes more sense. That's why I loved animated justice league. The scene with flash and the "villain" who was off his meds while drinking in the bar was perfect.
I believe that people who belive in redemption for evil people are admirable, because they have an optimism that should be envied, but their optimism is also to a fault because they underestimate how evil people can be. People can change, for the better even and I believe that, but how many innocent people have to live on in fear and grief knowing that evil people can torment and take away their livelihood of themselves and their loved and be left unchecked.
From what I’ve seen from other fictional stories, change and redemption is possible for anyone, but it comes down to it being a choice; the villain in question may be asking “why would I want to change, I’m fine with who I am,” redemption is possible; but it can’t be forced
My favorite part is how it actually sounds like 2 people talking like you can actually imagine people having this argument. The writing and the actors portraying it. Perfection
2:15 admittedly though, Daredevil just gave punisher's argument the best defense "there's something broken in you you can't fix" that is punishers whole argument, that there are some people who are simply too crazy and too evil to live (both sides made good points in my opinion)
0:35 Conversely, Frank gave Matt’s argument the best defense. “You shot up a hospital”, “Yeah nobody got hurt who didn’t deserve it.” How can you trust Frank to always know who does and doesn’t “deserve it”, is he psychic? Because if he’s ever wrong, that’s death, not the hospital or jail.
@@mackattack315 Frank isn’t just spraying and praying. He’s arguably one of the most well trained and deadly accurate soldiers in the world. It isn’t so much about knowing who deserves it or not, as it is he quite literally knows exactly who he’s gunning for before he even takes action. If he doesn’t wanna hit someone, he’s not gonna hit them.
Idk about that one Seth. Daredevil didn't exactly didn't write Frank off as a nut job who would never see reason, he just identified who he was at that moment. Given what Red said I'm willing to bet he wanted a chance to rehabilitate Frank or get him to see things from his perspective. Remember how he said there's a little good in everyone, even in Frank. Basically I believe that Daredevil's philosophy is that no one's ever too broken to be thrown away.
There’s nothing wrong with something feeling like a comic book at all, these ARE comic book characters after all and some of the best arcs of this show ARE best on comic book storylines here as you can make comic characters sound EXACTLY like real people all the time. No idea on where your coming from when you say but you’re completely wrong to do and say so!
@@Gadget-Walkmen He's not wrong at all. The comic books are obviously a much inferior way of telling stories, the dialogue is not written nearly as well. Compare the scene to the comic and there's probably a clear winner. Clearly here inspiration is better than adaptation, hence why (I think) everything that marvel does is inspired by instead of adapted.
@@JustapErson He IS wrong entirely AND you are as well as NOTHING you've said here makes ANY sense at all as there are COUNTLESS comic books that have VASTLY superior style of storytelling when your properly tell a story WITHIN that medium such as Watchmen, The Killing Joke, Batman: Hush, League of Extraordinary Gentlemen are all WAY better than their live actions and animated film counterparts because of how well the story is told here. You BADLY saying that "tHe cOmIC bOoKs Are ObIVoUsLY a MuCH inFerIoR wAy oF teLlIng StORiEs" is 100% WRONG as NOTHING about comic books are "inFeRioR" in ANY way if you actually bothered to see how fantastic ways stories have been told through mediums. "the dialogue is not written nearly as well." LOL Just no. spoken like someone whose NEVER read a comic as there is countless comic books with phenomenal dialogue that's better than even movies like Watchmen, V for Vendetta, Ultimate Spider-man, The Killing Joke, Daredevil: Born Again. You have NO idea on what you're talking about at all when you say this nonsense of "tHe dIaLOgue iS nOt WrItTeN nEaRlY aS wElL.", lol just no. The dialogue is written PHENOMENALLY and spectacularly well and done. The Dialogue is written JUST as well if you actually bothered to see how well written they all are. The only thing you've established here is that you've NEVER read a comic book in your life or you completely failed to understand how excellently well done they are for you to be spewing out this nonsense right here entirely in ANY way, that' for certain. "Compare the scene to the comic and there's probably a clear winner." This scene isn't pulled from ANY specific comic at all and just because it's live action, doesn't mean it's good at all. There are plenty of comic book that are WAY better than it's live action and animated counterparts like The Killing Joke, Watchmen, Batman: Hush, as I've mentioned beforehand and the source material of the comic are WAY better overall in comparison. The "probably clear winner" is whatever is done RIGHT within it's own medium correctly as there is such thing as a BAD adaption, which you fail to notice here whenever you say anything here at all. "Clearly here inspiration is better than adaptation," There is no "cLeArLy hErE" AT ALL as all it matters is WHAT the context is for one to be better than the other in the SPECIFIC situation you're talking about here. Inspiration and adaption can ONLY be as good as whatever they're doing within their own medium, that's it. "hence why (I think) everything that marvel does is inspired by instead of adapted." Obviously whatever Marvel does is inspired by comics than directly adapting any specific storyline EXACTLY as it was but like I said, Marvel does a excellent job at doing what they do through inspiration from what's been done in THEIR specific context, just like other Cinematic Universes should do so as well. In other cases, adapted stories can be done FANTASTICALLY well from adaption of any comic storyline and it can be just as amazing as any inspired by storyline, like I said, it all depends on what's been done on a case by case scenario which you don't get AT ALL here in the slightest.
To me, this makes Matt’s character arc in season 3 so much more powerful. Right at the moment he beats Kingpin and is wanting to snap his neck, Matt stops himself from doing it. Probably not because he thinks there’s good in Fisk but because he knows there is good in himself that would be destroyed if he followed through with it. Amazing writing and an amazing show.
Also later in this season Daredevil tells Frank that he’s willing to kill, but only this one time, and Frank explains to him that’s not how it works, once you do it once you’re a killer forever. That also probably helped Daredevil stop himself from killing Fisk.
@@erikdayne5429 exactly Matt can kill just once but that isn't how it works. Kingpin even stated that "the more one kills, the more easier it becomes" Frank is the living example. An individual who did so much killing, he's beyond saving
So basically Daredevil put innocent lives aside so that he could feel good about himself for “not falling to their level” even though killing a crime lord would do nothing but help people in the long run. How selfish of him.
@@shabeki bruh that conversation would’ve went on FOREVER unless he FORCIBLY shut Daredevil up, so that was just the boiling point, I highly doubt he cares what ppl think, actually no, I don’t doubt it at all, he DOESNT care
Insanity: repeating an act the exact same way and expecting a different outcome each time. Daredevil: punches the same criminals over and over and expects them to change.
I REALLY like how the Punisher can't look Daredevil in the eye in all of this. Knowing he is blind, he freely makes it show that he doesn't feel justified with his body language. He moves around, does other things, and even when sitting in front of him, he looks side to side instead of looking straight at him. I LOVE that.
@@the8u9 he kinda does the same thing in walking dead and wolf of wall street where he looks off to the side when he's annoyed at someone. He probably does the same thing in real life lol
Pure Fun and Stopmotions Even my younger brother wasn't that impressed. I made him watch 'New Batman/Superman Adventures' right after and he got hooked on that instead.
Ever since I was a kid, I always believed in the good in humanity, that people can change for the better. It's when you're young when you tend to underestimate how evil people can be. But then one day, I talked with a police officer who often visited my mom's cafe, and when I told him that I was bullied he told me that there were 3 kinds of people that do evil: 1. People who do evil things because they don't know it's evil. 2. People who do evil things and know it's wrong, but they don't care. 3. People who do evil things and know it's wrong, and worse, they enjoy doing it.
It's not just that,as someone else on the comments section here said,Frank doesn't care who DD is under the mask.Some people would have taken DD's mask off out of sheer curiousness just to see who he really is but it didn't make any difference to The Punisher.
@Literal_Potato He still fucking died, regenerating doesn't change the fact that he killed. He knew he would die, his enemy healing doesn't change his actions.
@@theoutlawking9123 There's a lot of distance between kicking someone off a roof in a fight to save someone and going on a crusade where you leave no enemies alive like Frank.
*In an alternate universe* Batman: What about you Jason, what happens the day someone decides you deserve it? Red Hood: I'll tell you what, they better not miss.
@@ariqsyafwan4987 Batman : But would that makes you better? What's the difference between you and them? Red Hood : Maybe sometimes, people need to get their hands dirty to cleanse this wretched world
@@Bouya_Harumichi Red Hood: simple, These murderers kill innocent people either to get a point across, fear, etc. Me I protect the innocent by killing those murderers to deter other would be murderers
There’s something so engaging about the acting and writing. I love how it’s so realistic and they’re talking over each other. Both these dudes are giving it their all. This show is so compelling, I can’t stop watching it.
Thats the acting. Notice that theyre breathing and talking at thr same time. I think that is the reason why it sounds so realistic. But the lines they say have to be realistic too.
kika laperrita to recreate Batman, and technically Frank Miller was inspired by his own earlier work (early mid 80s wrote on Daredevil, mid late 80s wrote on Batman), but I get what you mean and yes it’s true.
@@KoiToiPersonal no, its actually true. Batman is the older charcater, yes. But he was rewritten in his current form by the same guy who already wrote Daredevil. Thats why modern Batman has so many parallels with Daredevil. No killing rule, trained by a ninja group who believe in killing for the greater good as a protege, Elektra/Tahlia Al Gul etc. Batman was not originally written this way
For me i think they're both right. The problem is that they're both too absolute. Frank thinks all criminals deserve death. But some can have redemption. While matt says that they can be redeemed some people don't really deserve to breath. They're points both have flaws,which is why they are both right yet wrong at the same time
@Aaron Neville Jessica Jones has no morality but whatever she personally feels. She treats some criminals like scimbags and others like victims, based purely on how much she identifies with them.
In my opinion if comic books were real then daredevils way is more easier but this is reality and in reality u gotta make the hard choice that punisher makes
Yeah basically except Batman will find many other ways and methods to take down criminals outside of killing them that some will call questionable, like in Batman TAS where a criminal was barely hanging for his life and begged Batman & Robin for help, but Batman refused until he got the information he wanted even coldly stating “we’re not the police.” Batman & Daredevil have a strong moral code against taking lives but the difference is Batman wouldn’t mind breaking every bone in a criminals body to achieve his mission, while Daredevil will only get brutal against crime if the situation gets crazy, otherwise he’ll mostly just try to knock criminals out quickly and will only resort to actual pain when it comes to interrogation.
Kind of yeah, Daredevil is religous and that guides his view of taking life while Batmans is guided by his parents death causing him to never want to see another person die like that. Frank is a lot more brutal than redhood, redhood would use fear to keep criminals in line the punisher would just kill them
I think if they want to have a rated R side in the MCU then Punisher's upcoming show is the perfect starting point. He dropped an F-bomb in this scene like it was no big deal so they could continue that in his show.
We kind of got a scene similar to this whenever Tony and Steve talked about the sokovia accords. The idea of being under the governments surveillance and being independent
God the emotion of these two. Both respect and hate each other. till the end part of calling him crazy, they were fighting like old friends who after years apart met don't recognize each other.
I love how anti-heroes always make so much more sense when arguing the killing thing with heroes. Both Peace Keeper and Punisher acknowledge that the criminals get out and just kill again.
2:17 "And you really are a nutjob!" I adore Charlie Cox's acting in the moments after that line, from nervously stilting his words like he just realised what he said and who he said it to, and then finishing off chuckling, almost as if he's going, 'well, no point pumping the brakes when you've just driven off the mountain...'
I love how much of an emphasis the show gave to daredevils ideals of not taking a human life. The expression, the desparation in his voice to make punisher understand was immense in this scene
I agree with Frank on the fact that not everybody has the “flicker of light” in them and are totally evil. But I would prefer Matts approach in dealing with them
They both have good points it’s just Punisher takes it a bit far. Punisher does it to just about whoever he deems as such. Some people that may have actually had a chance at redemption. While Daredevil may give them a chance and those that take it good, but he leaves an impression. That to those who don’t change you will he right back here looking at me.
When the Punisher disemboweled and hung a man from a tree, and beat a woman for half an hour before throwing her out the 50th story window, because they were both involved in trafficking young girls as slaves, he did the right thing. Unforgivable crimes bring out the Punisher. If he guns down a down on his luck liqour store robber, that's when I agree with Daredevil.
Think about the colossal amount of lives that could have been saved if Batman dealt with the Joker like the Punisher would. There is a certain point where this is no redemption for someone. To pretend that is never the case is also just as insane as killing all criminals.
@Wicker 2 Or maybe he doesn't think that someone being broken in some unfixable way necessarily means they're pure evil. Or maybe being in a heated argument with a murderer who has him chained made him say something out of ire to offend Frank that he doesn't _really_ believe. Y'know, there's more than one possible interpretation lol
@Wicker 2 I don't think he is a hypocrite. I think he is just trying to implore Punisher to start believing again that there is a glimmer of goodness in everyone. Like the Punisher has almost completely blocked it out, but it is still there. And he just says "You can't be fixed and you're a nutjob" to compare Punisher to the criminals. Like "if you think this, then you are the bad guy as well"
@Wicker 2 Daredevil is trying to make Frank look like the hypocrite, but it doesn't work. that is what I am trying to say. Like he is saying that he is just as bad as the criminals, and he deserves a chance as well. But he doesn't expect Frank to be so nonchalant about knowing that he is a horrible person.
What I love most about this scene is that it reflects the conversation Matt and Foggy had in the first season but while those two were discussing the dangers of vigilantism Frank and Matt are here discussing the principles and morality behind it
This is like a judge debating with the executioner. I've never watched Daredevil nor the punisher but watching this scene alone showed me what I've been missing, as soon as I get the chance, I'm watching both shows!
