Tune in for our dedicated DARK Podcast talking about the whole show this Thursday at 3PM EST LIVE at www.twitch.tv/blindwave Raw Rider Patrons can watch the Full Length Reaction HERE: blindwavellc.com/dark-3x08-full/
@@IrenesWorkDemos-su2ip Looks like it's been rescheduled for 6pm EST.... 🤔 Edit: Correction... They've cancelled today's Dark livestream. They're rescheduling for next week. 🤔
@@syahrulh687 started watching their Dark Twitch review. Halfway through. I love that they mentioned how Sonja is an anagram for Jonas and MARek TannHAus spells Martha. And I didn't notice how when Adam and Eva were fading, that their linked hands were the last body parts to disappear. That's an excellent observation. And it's definitely a hint regardlng Jonas and Martha's final fate and the Origin world.
@@crazycakes668also no travel to the future. Time space bending through gravity or velocity doesnt count cuz its still the same time just the revolvings on different lvls
@@Ken00001010 not the same. Claudia understand all the implications (time travel and everything) of the 86 accident in the nuclear plant just by reading the report that Bern give her. Also, the series tells us that Claudia didn't give Jonas all the information, to delay him while Eva's move their pieces.
"Like" farmers keep repeating this comment across various reaction channels to this series. It's become an endless loop. But where, or who, is the origin?
The writers tossed us a little curve ball near the end when, for a moment, it looked like J&M were going to be the cause of Tannhaus' son going off the road and starting the whole story. It is like they are saying, "Look, we could have done this to you and it would have fit together perfectly, but because we know you want a happy ending, we are going to let J&M save the day."
True, but I think this was also their way of hinting that Jonas and Martha actually caused the accident in a parrellel reality. Schroedinger's Cat scenerio.
@@masteronionnorth2341 Of course, given that this is fiction, every idea that the writers had about how the story could have gone is an alternate reality in the story multiverse.
@@masteronionnorth2341 i actually think this is true. Because there are not three world but four. The fourth one is the one where Jonas and Martha dont succeed in saving Marek and the time machine splits the world in two
The reason I think Regina and Boris/Alexander aren't together in the origin world, is because the circumstances of them meeting never happened. In the Split worlds she was being bullied by Ulrich and Katarina. Because Ulrich never existed, there was no reason to bully her therefore Boris and Regina never crossed paths.
Thank you for these reactions! I've really enjoyed watching you all tie yourselves in knots (pun intended) and all your theories and crazy comments. My favorite was Calvin's "Why would I kill myself, as a deer, on cocaine, in the past?" It was a joy!
Loved sharing this experience with you guys. I think my favourite detail of the show is that by accidentally creating the two alt worlds, Tannhaus actually succeeded in saving his family. He'd just have no knowledge of ever doing it.
I want to believe that in our world the reason we don't have time travel is because everytime someone invents it, time fucks up so bad that someone prevents the thing that started it.
@@haridaspalleeri6765love this. Hence deja vu and other moments. Mainly deja vu. It’s just a feeling someone so deep within, you just truly feel you know you’ve been there before.
A lot of viewers didn't realize the connection between Jonas/Martha and Marek and Sonja.... I realized this in episode 7. When Tannhaus looked at his family pic on the bunker wall. The way these four characters stared at each other in rht finale sealed it for me. Lauer I found out that Sonja is an anagram for Jonas and MARek TannHAus spells Martha... Nothing is a coincidence or by chance in this story... 😉
DARK is probably one of the best science fiction series ever created in the last two decades. And one of the best products made about time travel. The quality of this series is indisputable. Performances, editing and soundtrack. All perfect. Hopefully we will see something like this again in the future.
Some funny stuff: - The intro song spoils the ending "Neither ever(eve), nor never(adam), goodbye" - Everything starts by the love of a father for his son and ends by the love of a mother for her daughter - Claudia is the snake in Garden Eden that leads Adam and Eve out of paradise (The Dark worlds) - Katarina's name is a bootstrap paradox, so what is her name in the end? - There were probably several iterations: In one of the first, the idea of giving Charlotte to Tannhaus came up so that he wouldn't invent the time machine out of depression. Adam probably doesn't know about it anymore. - Agnes and Hanno are named after Silja's parents (Egon, Hanna). Sonja and Marek = Jonas (Anagram) and Martha - Regina is Bernd's daughter (that's why she inherits the house/hotel). Therefore she is not part of the knot. - Adam and Eva's world are self-biting snakes and thus solve the time paradox by destroying the paradoxical origin (invention of the time machine). - It is called Dark because the worlds we see are dark worlds and not really real (See Hanna at the end). - Claudia knows about the time standstill through Eva and uses it to move herself in another direction (superimposed realities). Presumably she has verbally retold everything in each iteration. - Claudia could see that everything happened the same in both worlds, only the path was different. This suggests that both worlds have a common origin. If you break down all the scenarios from both worlds and take away the knot (everything paradoxical) and everything that has to do with it, then there is not much left that could be the starting event. We also know that Tannhaus was already an expert for time & quantum physics before everythin started (The loop). And you know what? This guy lost his only child and out of nothing got a baby which shouldnt exist. Even more, this guy - despite all of this - seems to just chill in his small room.Its no suprise Claudia understood that something is odd. - Tannhaus research is based on several generations of prior knowledge (Sic Mundus). He has invented a time machine that brings someone back from the dead, but he will never know. His time machine is different. Maybe its based on several overlaping worlds, which creates an alternative version of his beloved ones (Just like how he explained that the Cat is dead and not at the same time, see his explanations). - Martha and Jonas son says he has no name. In German "Kein" which sounds similar to Kain (son of Adam and Eve). - All those who were killed by the time machine of Noah (Bunker) as test objects had to die. Yasin and Elisabeth liked each other very much = bad news for Noah. Without Erik's death, no one goes into the cave, etc. - "We are not free in what we do because we are not free in what we want" (determenism).
Man, Rick is stubborn lol. I had a feeling before they started that he would have the hardest time connecting with the show. I’m glad the ending really clicked everything for Eric. I had a similar experience where I found it beautifully poetic that a man who created a Time Machine to save his family ended up saving them without ever knowing it.
It's not possible for "everything to click", because the showrunners decided on an ending that's not consistent with how time travel works. The Tannhaus we see in the end would still not have known that this timeline where they live was created by a grieving version of himself in a timeline where they die, but that timeline would still exist; and no one would disappear, Martha and Jonas would also still be alive and live on in this timeline, unless they engaged in further time travel shenanigans in case they still had pellets to run the machine (or used their knowledge from the loop, but the young versions of them didn't have much technical knowledge about that, so they'd have to get someone else to do it).
@@hoon_sol Well it's impossible to be consistent with how time travel works cause it doesn't exist hence, you can come up with your own rules and explanation. At least for me, the show was about a story of one time line splitting into two interconnected worlds like this ----------8 that's how my simple brain interpreted it 😅
@@sioweneyen: No, it's not impossible at all, fully self-consistent time travel is entirely possible. Whether or not it's physically possible is a different matter entirely, but there's nothing logically to prevent self-consistent time travel at all. So no, you can't come up with anything you like if you want time travel to actually work without plot holes due to internal inconsistency. Also, that simplistic image of how the timelines split is also rather nonsensical, even if it makes for fancy imagery. The way the timelines actually split were a split very early on (around the 1800s) caused by the grieving Tannhaus in the future, which in turn split into multiple timelines at the time of the apocalypse, including Tannhaus' original timeline diverging into a timeline where his family lives. Thus the show never really moves in any loop at all, they're just jumping back and forth in time and between timelines that form a branching tree. Once you take the time to understand how self-consistent time travel really works it's not that hard to visualize.
@@ricardomiles2957: That's a totally fallacious and downright stupid statement. Time travel has to obey certain rules to be self-consistent; whether it's physically possible or not is another matter entirely, but it could be, and then it would have to work according to those same self-consistent principles. So no, the idea that you can just "make up the rules" is completely false, you absolutely can't; not without ending up with glaring plot holes due to a lack of self-consistency. None of this changes one bit because of what you're "tired of", those are just the facts. And liking your own comments is certainly not a good look.
They only can split the timeline during the apocalypse, this is why Martah from World B can save Jonas in the World A, and Adam can save Jonas. In the moments before the Apocalypse time is fractured. This is why in all the other moments time cannot be changed
I think managing to land the ending was one of the many things that makes this series stand out. It explains away some of my grumbles of the early seasons - that they were so monotone and sad, without any humour. And this was because the two other worlds were incomplete, pocket dimensions born of Tannhaus's sadness. This is why we had that limited set of locations, almost like nothing existed outside of Winden - and even within Winden there was just the caves, the school, the police station, the power plant, those few houses, like they weren't 'complete' worlds. Adam's world always rain; Eva's world always mist. That damp sadness reflecting their origins. And when we go to the origin world, a normal light tone. Finally there's no rain or mist; finally we're whole again. All those 'wrong connections' you noticed, all vanished as the knot is untied and they are released at last. A great show, with a great ending.
the answer has been in front of us all along, in the very first episode where Jonas said "A Glitch in the Matrix" to Martha. Both Adam's and Eva's World we're a Glitch in The Matrix (The Origin World). throughout the series they kept saying "A Glitch in the Matrix" to us so many times.
Speaking of answers in front of us, I'm a little disappointed that barely anyone ever points out the purposeful naming "Adam & Eve". They are in a sense the first 2 people in the loop and everything is born from them. That's why the names. Every "time baby" exist thanks to those two (including themselves in a weird chicken & egg kind of way). I had that theory from the second the name Eve popped up in the show, and was very satisfied when it was revealed to be true. I've yet to see any reactors going there. While I'm sure most people get it without explicitly stating it, it would be nice if someone mentioned the parallel to their names once in a while.
Thanks for the journey. For many, many years LOST was my favorite show but Dark.. was perfect from the beginning to the end. Wrapped up story, perfect casting, great twists, gut-wrenching atmosphere throughout the whole show.
This resolution is so brilliant. It is the potential for Tannhaus to invent time travel that saves his son's family and means he does not have to invent time travel. In the quantum physics sense, the three worlds exist in superposition until J&M cause the collapse of the wave function, in the rain on the bridge.All in all a fantastic interwoven masterpiece of writing.
Jonas became Adam at the exact point when Jonas realized that in order to save everyone (what Jonas wants originally and never actually stops wanting) he has to destroy the world. Sad irony is that by trying to destroy the world he ultimately keeps it intact. At the end when Claudia reveals the third world she gives him what he always wanted - a way to save everyone. Adam's/Jonas's motivation never changed. And that is why young Jonas decided to trust Adam even though he just killed Martha like two seconds ago. Martha became Eve at the exact moment she met her child. Her motivation does change from wanting to be with Jonas to wanting to protect her child. That's why it was important to intercept her before that happened. Free will vs determinism us ultimately a useless debate. 'Cause it's really both. We as individuals make free choices at every point in our lives. But every choice we make is ultimately decided by our past. If you can't change the past you cannot change the choices made in the future. P.S. I also want to mention that the "loop" in the show happens only once. It never actually repeats. The flow of time in that loop is still linear from beginning to the very end. It doesn't suddenly jump from 2052 to 1880 after the "loop" is over. And also the events of the show are both always existed as is and never existed at the same time. (Quantum entanglement on the macro level) The fact of Tanhauss's son dying is what ultimately prevents him from dying.
I'm with Eric. I really felt satisfied by the ending. Up until then I was getting more confused and then once they said there's a third world and it clicked. Should have known. I was confused why some people were around in the origin world and I had to look that up to look at the family tree. Great reaction as always guys! I think my favorite part that I picked up on was the kids at the lake and goofing around and telling the story of the ghost lady in the lake, finding the necklace and then watching Katarina confronting her mom and getting killed and then watching her body get dragged into the lake. That was fun.
The biggest thing about determinism in the show is that choices are not pretedermined, but motivation always makes them pretedermined. Motivations makes decisions.
"Man can do what he wills but he cannot will what he wills." -Arthur Schopenhauer They used this quote for a reason in S3. It literally explains everything about Dark.
Dude u know his son could talk about the precise dialogue of this encounter? Maybe they dont understand the why or how bad it was. But they know theres a connection
@@derzuschauer2126I’m pretty sure it is. He hides it, then Hannah picks it up, then in 2020 adult Jonas uses it to threaten Martha, young Noah takes it from him, Noah then uses it throughout his crusade, Agnes will use it to kill Noah, and then finally Adam will use it to kill Martha
@@mynameisjeff5957 Dark series also shown reincarnation as a quantum Immortality concept, Katherina died in first world and reborns in second World, she then died in second World during apocalypse but her soul remembers her suffering during the lost of Mikkel that's why she was hugging Mikkel during apocalypse, Peter died in first world and reborns in second World, that's why he was feeling like he have met Jonas, when Jonas first time came to his world, because he have given him therapy, Martha have also born in second World that's why she was saying that when I met you Jonas I felt I met you before, Magnus Does all time travel thing with Jonas and reborns in second World and that's why he was satisfied during Apocalypse of second World because he have done so much work so his soul was satisfied. Similarly Francisca also done so much work and reborns in second second World and she was not having voice because she disrespected her sister who can't speak and her soul was also satisfied during Apocalypse of second World. but Jonas born again in his own universe but in Scrodinger cat theory, quantum immortality, that's why he never born in second World because he was always present in his world, his soul never gone their to reborn. But they all reborn in third world through different parents and reunited. The paradise. yes it may possible that quantum immortality concept of quantum physics can exist in real we just don't know that we are immortal and we will be become our Ulternate version of Scrodinger cat experiment, as Jonas felt something when he first read the letter of Martha, because he knows then only that The lines he said to real Martha can't be known by the Martha of other world. So it may be all version of all characters were past and future life of each other. And that is why he became Adam from Jonas. There is also a hint given in episode 5 of season 2 that in staring scene Middle Jonas dreamed where he is with Teenage Martha on bed and then suddenly Martha belly Ejects black liquid and that was their son, the origin, because Adult jonas was goes to Martha world and died and reincarnated in alternate version.
But, the lack of his families death prevented him from building the machine (and destroying his world). That is why I hold that his potential to build the machine is what saved the day (and caused him not to invent time travel).
@@Ken00001010 Sounds like a point of view question. Looking at it from the pov of Tannhaus after his family is saved, yes. Looking at it from the point of view of the Tannhaus that only existed after his family died, potential alone didn't cut it, he had to actually do it, and in doing so wipe this version of himself that build it out. If he hadn't, he still would have the potential to build, but nothing would have changed because he never build it. Time travel stuff, always a bit weird, isn't it ? I'd even go so far and doubt Family-Tannhaus does have the potential. Very likely the loss of his family was what gave him the drive to figure out how to do it in the first place. Until then he was very educated in physics, but he didn't expand on it. Only after his loss.
@@Thurasiz That just backs it up a level because the potential of losing his family can be combined with the potential to invent time travel conditioned on the loss of family, to then prevent the loss (i.e. achieve "The Paradise").
It's extraordinary just how many subtle clues regarding the Origin world and Tannhaus, were in plain view from the very beginning. You notice them on rewatches.
the fact that the "logo" / tunnel symbol depicted the 3 worlds from the beginning was also such a mind fk. It was literally right in our faces from the beginning.
Yes, I'm sure Adam says "human thinking is limited to dualities" when we first met him. So it is very ironic that when we're introduced to an alternate world, we don't assume there is a third.
Not only that, but someone on Reddit realized after finishing the series that you don't see the nuclear plant behind the trees in season one's episode intros. The plant should have been there. It wasn't. They were literally dangling the Origin world in front of our eyes from the first episode. Genius....
@@2KOOLURATOOLGaming I had trouble because I assumed there were infinite alternate worlds. I kept wondering why a character would listen to an alternate of themselves if they could just jump to a world they preferred. Each alternate would still be incestuous with this town, but not everyone has to die in each one. Following the story required taking several things at face value, including the contradictions. But it was incredibly well made and ultimately rewarding.
An Amazing Journey comes to an end - an honor to rewatch this classic series with the Wave Crew! That ending montage tho' - whew - right in the feels 😢😢😢
The Discussion parts were always my favorite part of Blind Wave. Surprisingly on Dark they were incredibly frustrating and not necessarily because they would miss stuff or not understand something. Everybody did on their first watch. For me the discussions got ruined because almost every time would hyper focus on one single thing that is not really that significant or does not really matter for better understanding the show. And there is so many different things to discuss after each episode that when half the discussion is somewhat "wasted" and leaves no time to discuss the more important stuff it leaves a bad impression. This episode it was the "Characters can not make a choice" section. I can not believe they talked for what felt like 20 minutes about that on the FINALE. ... Looking forward to the podcast
Has to be one of my favorite shows of all times. I do still wonder about the meaning behind Jonas and Martha seeing each other's childhood version. Wouldnt that mean it already happened?
Did you guys notice at the end of the street with Jonas & Marta that there was no Power Plant because it only existed due to interference from The Origin? How come you never reacted to the Steins; Gate movie or Steins; Gate: Zero?
Loved to rewatch this with you guys 😊 If noone mentioned it yet: The story-frame of Dark is based on H.G. Wells' Time Machine (thats why Tannhaus is named H.G.): Inventor looses a loved one, which causes him to invent time travel to safe her. In the original story he isnt able to, because that would prevent him from inventing time travel in the first place. Dark is a thought experiment of putting this premise in a modern "what if?" setting
The reawatch value of this show is immense. From the obvious huge plot points that make even more sense knowing the outcomes, to the more subtle off hand remarks and looks. My favourite being Wöller being annoyed by Ulrich cheating with (and on [Eva's world]) Hannah. Also him telling Clausen about her being beautiful, and us then finding out they're together in the original world.
I think it's my fault that i am dissapointed , just because it's my favourite show it doesn't mean that everybody will be amazed by story . it's obvious that this genre isn't for them . But if they paid attention they wouldn't be so confused after episode 7 . Also rick said that he isn't invested in characters , well i would be surprised if he said that he cared , there wasn't single moment or discussion where he seemed interested , he used to be my favourite but after watching naruto and vinland saga , now dark i have changed my mind . I am glad eric enjoyed show .
You don't have to be butthurt about someone not liking something as much or for exactly the same reasons as you are. They were all trying to figure out the show and all Rick said was that he wasn't invested in the characters. I for one completely agree. The characters are interesting, but not very likeable. The show is all about not being free in what we want, but what they wanted was all the motivation the characters had. They cheated and lied, Claudia let her father die, Hannah is a b, Jonas not only didn't bring Mikkel back but brought him back to the past in the first place, Ulrich killed a child etc. all for "trust me, it's for the big picture". Compare that with Everything Everywhere All At Once where the moral was "Be kind, especially if you don't know what is going on". And my criticism doesn't mean I didn't like the show or wouldn't recommend it. Furthermore, people wholeheartedly liking this show doesn't make me think worse of them, because that is some childish dweeb bullshit.
This began w/ a DAD who only wanted to save his SON. It kept moving along bec. of 2 ppl who tried saving EACH OTHER. All was brought to an end by a MOM, who ultimately saved her DAUGHTER.
Tannhaus basically saved his family in very twisted way. He invented time travel which created endless loop that destroyed itself in the end. Everything that happened existed and never existed at the same time because after all that happened his family is alive and Tannhaus doesnt need to invent time travel
I like the idea that Tannhaus basically created a brute force algorithm to get his family back. Both worlds would go through loops over and over again until discovering that the only way to escape the circle would be saving them.
I think a lot of people have trouble following the characters: E.g.: - Claudia told Jonas that small things can change. Then suddenly there is a new world, a letter from the great love believed dead and a Martha from another dimension. The book only says what it takes to keep the cycle going. Neither the beginnings, nor the Endgame, nor the other world. Jonas in Adams world doesnt know all of this. He thinks the other Jonas is a previous iteration, not another loop. Jonas in Adam's world thinks something has changed and in a previous iteration Jonas lands in Eve's world to get laid. This is finally the last cycle where he will destroy the origin so that the whole torment stops. It will be the last cycle... You see, what he doesnt "unerstand" is that the loop is not an O but an infinity symbol. The other Jonas is part of the loop...as well - Jonas lives 66 years with the thought that only he can save all people and also his great love. For this he has to set the time machine correctly, which seems to work with high voltage. Just imagine you have 66 years of apocalypse and time travel crap behind you and get as thanks daily lightning in the face. No wonder the guy just wants all this crap to end. - Hannah has loved only one man her whole life and was constantly exploited, betrayed and ignored by him. The only other man who loves her has hanged himself and before that was extremely unstable. The next man only plays games with her. Nothing came of the new beginning, the only thing she has left is her son. He sees her as the source of all evil. How nice. - Katharina's mother was probably raped several times as a child. Katharina is the only one who did not abort her. This woman was highly religious and probably paranoid thanks to the many traumas. Now she sees a woman who resembles her own child, which also calls her mother and pursues her. No wonder she thinks shes her aborted baby from hell.
Dark series also shown reincarnation as a quantum Immortality concept, Katherina died in first world and reborns in second World, she then died in second World during apocalypse but her soul remembers her suffering during the lost of Mikkel that's why she was hugging Mikkel during apocalypse, Peter died in first world and reborns in second World, that's why he was feeling like he have met Jonas, when Jonas first time came to his world, because he have given him therapy, Martha have also born in second World that's why she was saying that when I met you Jonas I felt I met you before, Magnus Does all time travel thing with Jonas and reborns in second World and that's why he was satisfied during Apocalypse of second World because he have done so much work so his soul was satisfied. Similarly Francisca also done so much work and reborns in second second World and she was not having voice because she disrespected her sister who can't speak and her soul was also satisfied during Apocalypse of second World. but Jonas born again in his own universe but in Scrodinger cat theory, quantum immortality, that's why he never born in second World because he was always present in his world, his soul never gone their to reborn. But they all reborn in third world through different parents and reunited. The paradise. yes it may possible that quantum immortality concept of quantum physics can exist in real we just don't know that we are immortal and we will be become our Ulternate version of Scrodinger cat experiment, as Jonas felt something when he first read the letter of Martha, because he knows then only that The lines he said to real Martha can't be known by the Martha of other world. So it may be all version of all characters were past and future life of each other. And that is why he became Adam from Jonas. There is also a hint given in episode 5 of season 2 that in staring scene Middle Jonas dreamed where he is with Teenage Martha on bed and then suddenly Martha belly Ejects black liquid and that was their son, the origin, he was shocked because Adult jonas never goes to Martha for intercourse on bed , but because in true sense he goes to Martha world and died and reincarnated in alternate version. And this song just was playing during Stranger Jonas was on work, indicating that he is done dying
About boris, I think because ulrich never existed regina was never in the forest the day she met boris - bc they never met boris never stayed in winden - therefore no bartosz, even though his parents were never part of the loop, hence the explanation of him not being in the table.
there is a nice quote for the discussion of having a choice: "Wir sind nicht frei in dem, was wir tun, weil wir nicht frei sind in dem, was wir wollen" - "We are not free in what we do because we are not free in what we want" So i think they have choices, but they will always choose the things they want... so it always will be the same everytime and infact have then no other choices... idk if i make any sense, but this show is great and i love the "poetry" or philosophy(?) and the characters here! the time travel stuff is one thing, but everything else how they tell the story or the casting/music/acting/cinematography/etc. is just perfect as a show to watch imo. thank you for ride! great reactions as always! :D P.S. you should have done the Podcast on the 27th of June for a nice easter egg! 😁btw i don't know if you knew this, but Season 3 aired on the 27th of Juni 2020, the exact date of the Apocalypse! Also you might not watched it, but it would be cool if you watch the Season 3 trailer, because it was really well done has a great soundtrack too!
It is a famous quote from Schopenhauer. I also like how it was used in the movie "Lawrence of Arabia" where Lawrence replies to "But you can have anything you want." with "But, you can't want what you want."
But, did he create them? Thanks to J&M, those woulds never existed. As I see it, his potential to invent time travel created the potential for those worlds to exist, but by saving his son, they did not actually exist.
The central theme of this series (according to the writer) is desire. It was in the quote (by Heidegger?Edit: no it's Schopenhauer) "You can do what you will but you can't will what you will", which is a bit shoddy, too literal translation. It basically means: you can act out your desires but you can't choose your desires. Desires in people are a given. You don't choose who you fall in love with, for instance. This whole series is people chasing their desires. They want their loved one back, daughter, son, father, girlfriend etc. Desire can be a very powerful force. Sometimes even (self)destructive. And sometimes you just have to let go of your desires to get where you need to be or/to find happiness. So desire is determinism but choosing not to follow your desires is free will.
The quote is form Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860) "Der Mensch kann tun was er will; er kann aber nicht wollen was er will." (Man can do what he wills but he cannot will what he wills). They referenced this, also, in the movie "Lawrence of Arabia" when Lawrence says "But, you can't want what you want."
And Wöller's eye is the biggest joke of the series. The actor had an accident with his eye just before shooting and showed up on set with the bandage asking if it was a problem. Producers thought it wouldn't but that's why in S01 nobody references it. It wasn't in the script. Apparently it got a lot of reactions so they decided to run with it in S02 and 3
I like to think that the machine Tannhaus creates isn't a time machine but more of a computer that uses time to change the past and both worlds were created as part of an equation that the computer is trying to solve in which it requires the correct versions of Jonas and Martha. Each apocalypse is just a failed iteration of the calculation and so it starts again until it finds them, then at the end it deletes itself out of existence by finishing the calculation and stopping the event that caused itself to be created in the first place using Jonas and Martha from the other worlds.
And, if that computer were a quantum computer, all those calculations could be going on at once in superposition with the solution happening when J&M save the day (i.e. collapse the wave function) on the rainy bridge.
Maybe the reason why no time travel ever existed irl is because everytime the machine is invented, the machine work itself out to prevent its own existance like the tanhaus machine XD
I’m glad I watched the series along with you. I don’t know if I would have or when I would watch this. This is now one of my top shows, and the casting was great. Happy to have seen it with you. Looking forward to more in depth discussion.
I always saw my wardrobe as a portal as a kid so when they are in the time stream I had a bit of an existential crisis. Rick said or another world where they didn’t do it. We saw that world, tannhaus’ family died and he created the two worlds. Tannhaus is the villain of the story and no one will ever know. But is he really a villain if that world never existed? He created life to have it destroy itself while he remains ignorant to the power of the unknown. Those worlds did exist because we have echoes (deja vu’s) and the dark worlds influencing the origin world. That’s been my emotional dilemma for years with this show because only the audience knows those worlds existed
The very interesting fact is that you never see another place than Winden. Boris and Clausen came from Marburg but they never showed us how. Every world and timeline took place only in Winden because the origin world is there. I asked me often why they never leave? And you see Hannah saying three times in case of an apocalypse she wishes a world without Winden. Greetings from Germany❤
I think your discussion to predetermination vs free will is missing the schrödingers paradox. It is all a question of perspective while you are seeking for the universal truth. Lets take Ulrich: As Helge in his world always had the scared ear (at least since he was a kid) so Ulrich always went back and attacked the boy, therefore is in a loop and according to you he had no free will not do so. But from Ulrichs perspective he always actively makes the decision to attack the boy. There is not universal truth, there is just the observer from the outside and the individual truth of Ulrich. I hate the misconception that in predeterminism there is no free will, which is only true for the observer, it doesnt actually remove agency from the subject, as in the subjects reality the subjects always make the decision to act a certain way. Thats what I think this show is about, the different metaphysical layers, the time/worlds in which people made the different decisions and created new lawyers.
At the end of the show, it indicates that Bernd Doppler is Regina's father. When do you think Claudia had the affair with Bernd? He clearly liked her when she was a child helping Helge. As an early teen, she starts the relationship with Tronte, so it would seem that Bernd was after Tronte. Perhaps in grad school? I suspect Bernd was cheating on Greta long before. My guess is that Claudia came back to Winden and began working at the power plant after grad school, and soon caught the eye of Bernd who was running the place and remembered her.
The whole free will vs determinism discussion was really interesting. I think the show answers it pretty well though. "We are not free in what we do because we are not free in what we want" What you want remains the same so what you do will result in getting what you want. What Ulrich wants is his brother and son alive, so he will make the necessary choices to make that want happen. In a more simple way, you have the ability to choose. But there is only one way to go, and you'll always choose that way because that way leads to what you want. Its complicated lol
The characters constantly have the option to make decisions. The predeterminism thing is that no matter what they choose it will always end with the same result. That is why they showed the audience Ulrich trying to kill Helgue in two different situations and in both cases he fails to kill him and is effectively removed from the events (dead or forever imprisoned in a mental institute).
Was amazing to follow the journey of you guys reacting to this, I know it’s been cancelled but would love to see what you guys think of S1 of their other show called 1899
Before Season 3's release and the reveal of the Origin, I remember seeing a theory that Aleksander Tiedemann/Boris Niewald was the son of Jonas Kahnwald and Alt-Martha Nielsen, hence the last name: NIE\WALD = NIE\lsen + Kahn\WALD But alas, we got creepy triplets with the cleft lip.
I will never get over how Regina and Claudia are actually different actresses. It took me like 2 seasons to realize that because the casting is so perfect.
Regina and Claudia look different, though related, to me. But I was absolutely shocked to learn that the older Ulrich (Winfried Glatzeder) was not just the original Ulrich actor (Oliver Masucci) with old-person makeup. They looked so similar that it never occurred to me that they could be two different actors.
@@Whistler4u That is the beauty of the paradox the writers crafted. They seem to me to be modeling the kind of thing that happens in quantum computing where a "solution" drops out of superposition of all possible computations without proceeding steps. They set us up for that by presentation of Schrödinger's Cat. That is why I say that it is the potential for H. G. Tannhaus to invent time travel that saves his son. J&M only exist in superposition of all possibilities, but that collapses into the main line of the origin world where we see the dinner party at the end. It's deeply brilliant writing.
Thanks for the journey, I really enjoyed watching this show with you and to see how much you 'especially Eric) loved this show. I've never watched your podcasts live because of the difference in time zones (they're usually very late or even in the middle of the night for me) but I'm saving the date for this one! I really liked your discussion about determinism vs free will, very interesting thoughts! It reminded me of the same kind of thoughts I have about a character in a very popular anime... Also, I have to admit that I'm one of those who's like "come on guys, how did you not catch it ?" - though not about clues only clear in hindsight but about things explicitely said in the episode. But Eric's talk about the subtitles made me realize the differences between your experiences and mine: - first of all, I'm not a native English speaker so I'm very used to watch shows with subtitles. Even if my English is not too bad, for shows in English (the majority of what I watch) I still watch them with English subtitles: for me it's much easier to concentrate on only watching (the show and the subtitles) than to concentrate on both watching and hearing. I'm now so used to English subtitles that I chose to watch Dark in German with English subtitles. - more importantly, I'm watching by myself, and my way of watching any show is that every time there's something I didn't catch, I'm hitting pause and rewatch. But you are watching as a group, reacting so some times speaking to each other, taking notes, and all in one go, you can't pause because of the full-length reaction. No wonder there's things you miss, I'm actually impressed on how many you don't! Dark is the only show for wich I tried to take notes, but I couldn't do it without pausing the show, I don't know how you do it!
Before I binged this show last year, I always considered The OA as the best Netflix series. Dark usurped it and is Quite possibly the Best Show Ever. It's complex yet beautifully told and neatly wrapped up in 3 seasons. The Casting was very thorough and Smart because they searched for families that act. So that 1 character can be played by members of the same family at different ages.
After last episode where they seemed more confused I was worried about the finale but I'm very happy that they seemed to get everything, at least for the most part. It's been great to see their journey through Dark. I'm looking forward to the podcast 😊
My interpretation: Jonas and Martha not existing leads to Tannhaus’ son and daughter-in-law dying in a car crash which leads to Tannhaus creating the machine which creates Adam’s world and Eva’s world which leads to Jonas and Martha saving them from the car crash. We (the audience), having observed J+M saving Tannhaus’ family, are shown the last supper scene because that has become our reality based on the Schrodinger’s Cat principle explained by Tannhaus himself in an earlier episode. Both realities (Tannhaus’ family dying in a car crash and being saved by J+M) exist simultaneously (quantum superposition) and all three worlds are irrevocably interconnected. The end is the beginning.
That's how it would be if the show were consistent with how time travel works; but in that case no one would disappear in the end, so they decided to violate consistent time travel for the ending.
@@hoon_sol They didn't "violate" the show's rules at all. The time travel of the 2 worlds were completely separate from the Origin World. That was Claudia's whole point. In order to break the loop you have to get out of the 2 worlds and go to one where it doesn't exist.
@@jasondexter4609: Yes, they absolutely did; and not just that, but they violated how self-consistent time travel itself works. Traveling to the origin world is perfectly fine, that doesn't break anything; what breaks everything is Jonas and Martha and the branches leading to their existence disappearing in fantasy lights. That is inconsistent with the time travel of the series and with how consistent time travel works, regardless of what erroneous notions you might have about it.
Theorized as soon as I finished the series back in 2020 that I though the ending involved another Schroedinger's Cat scenerio. Jonas and Martha both caused and prevented the accident. Tannhaus' was responsible for this even though these events happened before the machine was even created.
So What changed? I still have one doubt as to how she figured this out. What changed from the past cycles?. Because if all things were happening the way they used to, then how come she came up with the idea of 3rd world and a way to change things? Was it something external that changed, if so what? Or did that thought randomly just come into her mind, if so then why did it not come in any of the cycles before this? There has to be something that changed? and what was it? A possibility is that things were changing at least for Claudia and her thoughts. Maybe in each cycle she incrementally gained new information and realized things that she was able to communicate with her next version. Another possibility could be that people who were existing in the original world, always had a chance to change things but just never knew? Because Jonas, Martha, and everyone else were linked in this perennial loop, they were unable to change things, but anyone outside, could have always changed it? Even Peter, Hannah, etc.
Jonas did not changed this much. I mean, he Always wanted to end all of this. First, by saving Mikkel and erasing his own existence. But it was Always a small part of something much bigger. Ultimately, with years and knowledge about the knot, he embraced the complete nihilism.
You know those corny Lifetime movies with angels and shit, well, this show is like imagining that the ‘angels’ doing the intervening there aren’t really angels but time-traveling, world-hopping beings.
I think it is not correct for folks to call the actions as 'loops' in time. Yes, they are causal loops, but all this happens at once. This kind of time travel story assume Einstein's 'Block' Universe where all time exists at once as a fourth dimension. I think of it like the script for this show sitting on the desk of the writers when they have finished it. All the scenes are there, in the pages, they are connected, but what is happening 'now' depends on what page you pick up and start reading. The things have not happened "an infinite number of times" it all happened only once, it just seems to happen again and again because you get to read the pages again from a different character's point of view.
Love this comment. I’ve never seen a show so expertly crafted from the very beginning to the very end! Episode 1 begins with this quote by Albert Einstein: "The distinction between the past, present and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion."
56:50 After watching previous episodes where Aaron and the rest thought that Silja was Ulrich & Hannah's daughter, I actually got a closure here when Aaron finally realized that that might not be true, and that Silja might actually be Egon & Hannah's daughter..
Dark and La Casa de Papel must be watch in original language, I was always watching stuff in english but those I just can't. It takes so much from the show. What an amazing journey, next to Lost my fav show and my fav reactions from you!
