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There are thousands of skins and wards. Like there isnt even a gurentee that you get a skin shard. If you want to get a skin from a shard you eithrr have to disenchnat other skin shards or re roll into a shittier or better skin. And most of thr time is shittier since more than half of what league offers are absolute garbage. Then theres the gemstone thing. Pointless. Ive played the game for over 7 years now and got a total of 55 gemstones, not even enough to exchange the most basic mythic skin. 30 of them i got from last year only.
Idk about you but I get a key fragment at worst like literally every other day when I log on, if I were to complain about anything it's how chest drops are tied to champions lol
Yeah I got honor level 4 then, came back, now you can't honor your opponents anymore, that nice vibe is dead, and getting honor is a slow, painful grind now despite getting votes every game. Why'd they take it out?
this system is so genius because even if it "doesnt work" it still works. Like even if you fail to incentivize your players to play nice, the nice players still get to max level, then they get to play ranked, with all the other nice players. I think that's cool.
It's also genius because you can train the kids to accept a social credit system.... then later in life you can redefine "toxic" to mean whatever threatens the corporations and political elite....then set them up to inform on each other to disincentivize disobedeince to the elite. it's brilliant
@@apokatastasian2831 bro its a video game trying to reduce the prevalence of people calling each other slurs and griefing so that more people have more fun You could make this argument about literally any reward system that incentivizes any behavior at all. Initiative to support kids going to the dentist so their teeth don't rot? Your mom telling to go outside to get some fresh air and sunshine? Getting money for going to work and providing a valuable service?
@@Kai-K that is true, your mom raising you right, a free person choosing a career, and mechanized technological systems with behavioral modification goals set by opaque teams of engineers, testing their ideas and gaining privatized psychological data profiles of minors......are completely the same. certainly the military and surveillance agencies have never ever used video games explicitly for social engineering or intelligence gathering before....so my comment is completely out of line. I apologize for suggesting it , continue your day citizen
@@Kai-K Did you remember Niantic? the company that launched Pokemon go? their main product is mapmaking for the military. they made one game... they launched a game, which got children, to go to locations they pinned, to take inapp phone pictures of interior spaces google street cars cant get to..... which then became the property of niantic. they traded us digital dinosaurs for this service. was that: a.) a fun and lighthearted game bro like seriously touch grass b.) a way for a for-profit corporation, to get an army of unpaid workers to create maps of private residences in a grey area of violating the 4th amendment without technically violating it and then selling those maps for billions of dollars more than they made from the game. if you say the one that doesn't involve making billions of dollars...better check your assumptions. time to wake up sleepyheads, the machines are never your friends and they don't care if people call you names. *you are the product*
Crazy that games like this were around so many years ago, had experiments like this that WORKED, and other major devs just completely overlook systems like this.
i don't like it nor think it should be in any videogames. i would much rather be myself rather than be coerced into being nice just to make more progress. i have no issue with toxicity and actually find overly nice people to be even more annoying and condescending.
@@johnnycaralta I mean, instances from when I modded a game? Doxxing and death/SA/terror threats (sometimes in conjunction with the dox). Hell, we had a mod ban a player for cheating, only to receive a picture of his wife taken through his kitchen window with the players gamer tag signed on it.
Deep Rock Galactic (mostly) solved it by having cheering and camaraderie as built-in mechanics (saluting, beers cost the same per round regardless of team size, encouraging hanging out post-match), and having the dwarves (player characters) antagonize the company they work for rather than eachother.
Rock and stone!! Yeah the DRG community is awesome because the devs are quite sharp and designed their game to be noob friendly and mitigate player conflict by making classes a little flatter with more overlap (i.e. it's not like TF2 where rheres one dedicated Medic, every dwarf can cover every role just with different efficacy). Helps hide skill differences which gives people less reason to bitch. There's sure a fair number of toxic people still, but it's way lower than most other games. I just wish their takes on the game itself were as absolutely based, but they still made something amazing and I'll always respect it even if the game isn't going in a direction I like
@@squarewheel1860as someone that very recently got into DRG I can't disagree with this more I have seen maybe one or two bots or hackers in the entire 7 months I've been playing.
A game called Foxhole does something similar. Everyone’s rank is determined by how many commendations they get from other players. The available commendations were acquired from running logistics (fueling the game). If someone is a high rank, they’re usually a good or cool person. If someone is giving away lots of commendations, they put a lot of effort into fueling the game for other players. It’s a great system.
Reminds me of old halo matchmaking. I forget whether it was 1 or 2, but you could like/ dislike the players in your lobby, like meant you were more likely to match with them in the future, dislike meant less likely. Toxic players (theoretically) had longer queue times if no one wanted to play with them
@@TheTrueFoolexactly why these systems are garbage…you can’t police morality. Majority of people just talking shit anyways and don’t mean it. Even back in the day if I got into an annoying lobby I just left and started matchmaking over. But now people are too soft and too stupid to figure out their own solutions.
You had an empty grid that you could slot shaped pieces into, and every one you fit in gave different perks, so you could choose between maximising your sheer statistical bonuses or just slam a couple big funny pieces in and let god sort em out
@@dylanalpers it was something of a cross between Leagues old Rune system and new one, you start with an empty grind that you can slot pieces small ones may give a small stat bonus like runes did, bigger/oddly shaped ones may give something closer to the current keystone abilities, but then these pieces would also have sockets you could slot gems into which were just straight stat bonuses like leagues old runes were so it became an actual decision point, do I want this cool ability/effect at the cost of free stats, or do I want to maximize my stats but lose out on bonus effects
You catch more flies with honey than vinegar. A small number of people are jerks because it's who they are--a far greater number have their worst side come out when they play online, anonymously, in a sweaty, competitive environment with randos. It incentivises the worst, rather than the best behaviour. But when you turn "sportsmanship" and "politeness" into in-game stats that get you better rewards, and "rudeness" into a massive debuff, it flips that script by appealing to the gamer mind and turning that "caught up in the competition" switch toward being nice instead of naughty.
It's important to note that "rudeness" isn't even a debuff here. The fact is, if one were to allow to punish other players for being "rude", that would lead to griefing and backhanded toxicity. They were genius by only allowing positive reinforcement, not negative reinforcement.
Dawngate was so cool and such a fresh take on the system. I miss it so much and really wish that Shrine of Imanna/Dreambound were still being worked on like they used to be to bring the game back.
@starsn7974 ??? You aren't being punished because they are rewards for making someone happy, not something you are owed for playing Lol. You also aren't guaranteed to get ANY up-votes, so to think like that is inherently wrong.
@@BlueSapphyre it wasnt even really that though. League and Dota was at their Peaks, Their Primes at the time. Esports was just getting started and EA flat refused to Advertise the game or really even give it proper Funding. So, The only way for you even stumble across Dawn Gate was by chance. Due to this EA Canceled the entire project all because it couldnt beat League/Dota at their Prime instantly while purposely being underminded by the company that owned the Developer.. When it was canceled. EA Closed the entire Studio making it, so, everyone at said studio got together, started their own studio and started a Petition to BUY the rights to Dawngate. EA and them came to an agreement of 1million (I assume cause EA thought it was impossible for them to get) when they got the 1million, EA Refused to Sell them the Rights to the game. Now said studio is currently remaking Dawn Gate from scratch under a new named called Shrine of Imana or something. Here is the timeline of it all www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fn383ztov9am61.png ITs been radio silent for years sadly, so, i assume they quietly Stopped the project.
That's a smart idea. They should try implementing that in league. FF14 has the best community I've ever seen. It has little to no rewards for being nice, but the culture and atmosphere they created in that game makes people behave. I doubt it can be easily replicated, so this method of giving extra rewards for commendations at the end of games/runs/etc would be a nice start.
Yeah FF generally has an amazing community compared to any other mmo, but you wanna stay away from social circles as in people who mainly play to hang out and talk or are hyper active in chats. My first toxic experiences were from people like that, some of those people exist in the novice network bc ig it feeds their ego for new players to tell them they’re good at the game, I’m still not max level tho so there may be more areas that are toxic but generally I’ve had like 95% good experiences with social interaction in FFXIV if not higher then 95%
It does have that kind of system. You level up an honor system in order to receive your ranked rewards at the end of the season like free skins etc. You get chat banned or any vacations and you have to regrind those honor levels.
FF14 community is just as toxic as any other MMO you just don’t see it in game because their TOS is so strict that if someone reports you you’re likely to get suspended, and 3 suspensions is a permanent ban. So I guess if you’re fine with never interacting with people out of game it can seem pretty nice on the surface.
there are whats called honor rewards in league of legends where players honor others if theyve been a good teammate. but the majority of players are already max level, so theres not that strong incentive
It's also bullshit. At least on the leaderboards shit got real toxic real quick. If you tried going off meta people would flame the shit outta you real quick. Were there nice people and nice streamers? Sure, but there were also a lot of folks who were hyper-competitive and ready to rage.
@@upbulb1538 Dude, what are you talking about? Leaderboards were only toxic in the handful of ego tripping league players pretending it mattered but most people didnt care. As for meta, what fucking meta? The game was in beta and the entire design of it was built around preventing a meta situation like league had and changes were often. The closest you could come to being "off meta" is making a really braindead build on a character, in which case that isnt playing off meta thats just playing a character wrong.
Dawngate was genuinely the next gen of MOBAs. I remember seamlessly loading into the game from pre-game lobby with NO loading screen. Imagine champ select ends and you're just... in game. The best.
I spent a lot of money on that game-- there was a character that rode on a gun that turned into a bike, she screamed obscenities and her ulti was a anchor that dragged from her airship
It probably kinda balanced out since most of the time you're probably at an advantage if you're a full team of friends vs randoms. Not sure tho, have never heard of this game in my life.
This was one of the few concepts in Hell let Loose that I loved. Leveling up different classes takes AGES, but if your squad constantly commends you I think it's 10% more XP for each vote (technically all 30ish players on your team could give you the vote), then you level up at an incredibly fast pace.
I develop several auto-moderation systems like that, in my days as a online game creator. One of those games was about diplomacy, were you had to make your gains validated by your opponents, via public and short negociations. Then,.a jury of 3 random player had to judge your négociation conformity : 1) did you fight for your own interest, first and foremost ? 2) Did you kept the négociation opened enough for your opponent to play and have fun too ? 3) did you built together something coherently written,.for your characters, faction, in-world, and the game interest ? Etc... If jury's votes are good,.you get validated. You could appeal to decision, which unfold another jury of 3 other random player,.judging the first jury members. Corruption points could be distributed to the first jury members this way, which would make them lower priority for next random jury duty of all kinds. It moderated itself, to keep people roleplaying in an open, competitive, respectful and comprehensive way. While still allowing all sorts of mischief, treachery, corruption attempts or dilemmas. People loved it. Never needed any modération, as morons, selfish people, toxic trolls, power gamers or weasel smartass were automatically outcasted from the system and not progressing at all in the game. And I'm sure there's literally dozens of other systems like that we could craft rather easily, to just make toxicity super contre-productive and progress killer.
@@tiedyedbeard3439 reminder that Mina was one of the single most interesting playstyles ever to exist. Which is why of course LoL ripped it off shortly after DG shut down.
I love being not toxic. It makes games so much more enjoyable for literally everyone. And having systems to show teammates "i saw that you tried and that alone deserves my respect" is just a cherry on top at that point. Siege added a reputation system, and while i doubt it'll change things too much, it's still nice to know that i can give credit where credit is due.
I literally talked about this with a group of about 20 people. I said the reason toxicity is still prevalent ib league is due to two things in equal share. 1] Rewards for being positive to randoms or friends is not really visual or rewarding enough 2] Punishment doesnt fit the crime. You brought out my point here, as i have said to them as well, i think league needs to punish toxicity with TIME. Time is one thing no one wants to waste without good reason. Give toxic members different steps, but do not remove their account. Even better, keep the number of #reports public to some degree. Before you think someone will consider it a badge of some sort, remember the punishments need to be better. I dont wanna type a whole full length explanation, here, in a comment and thru my phone lol So i will stop here, and thank you for having the swme vibe as me when thinking on 'toxic communities'
I kinda disagree. People dont care about rewards in league if that means suffering through a 40 minute game. Also league has punished people with time and never worked you used to have 20 minute queues. In my experience what makes league a toxic game is the ELO system. A system designed to make your winrate 50% no matter how much time you spend improving yourself. And how does it do it? By pairing you with people with worse and worse ELO (tilted players on a lose streak, trolls...) until you lose. It basically punishes you for winning. If they want to improve toxicity make the matchmaking random and only based on rank. Dont use hidden numbers that are modified by winstreaks and losestreaks.
@@wassup4532 One of the biggest league problems are cheep accounts. Doesn't matter if you get perm banned on one acc if you can get another for 5$. Also a HUGE problem is that players treating Report system as a big brother. Someone had a bad game? Report for feeding! Someone on enemy team BS you? Report for harrasment! You couldn't land a hook on enemy janna? Report for scripting! You top decided to split and didin't backed to help def? Report for trolling! People treat report system as a councler to complain to. And after so many false reports there are some real ones that slip by.
I had my account of 10+ years permabanned after I had some terrible life stuff happen and took it out in game. the next few months after that I trolled for months on possibly 30 to 40 accounts. it all became meaningless after that.
@@wassup4532you have no clue how Elo type matchmaking works, do you? Your winrate will be 50% if you stay at the same skill level. It has nothing to do with matchmaking. If you are better, you climb. Last I checked people on new accounts always get back to their rank because skill is the determinant and MMR is the abstract value attached to that skill relative to the entire population. You cannot have a system that doesn't have this 50% model and have honest ranking. It's impossible.
The current system punishes players and forces them to win 3 unranked matches. Meaning they not only have to "waste time" on Normal matches. They also have to try and win (you can't ff15 it away). And that penalty lasts forever, so playing on other accounts doesn't help. You have to actively spend time winning in casual modes and trying your hardest for your team. I think it's a great new punishment system that actually addresses the issue.
Some games do stuff similar to that now and it doesn't make them less toxic. It just becomes the default that everyone votes for everyone else. It's the epitome of "when everyone is special, no one is"
Final Fantasy 11 had a similar solution with the community. You had to have a party with you to do almost everything, even for the job quests that only YOU would get rewards from. It made everyone super kind to each other because they'd have to ask you for help eventually. Plus you spend so long in parties, you make friends with people naturally. 11 had the kindest community of any MMO or game that I've ever seen.
IC and Dawngate are two games that no longer exist that is so heartbreaking. Played so much of them both and my friends that I played with reminisce often on them.
@@curtishonts7802 Oh I cannot choose which char from either. I loved to play them all. Cat prime was my fav and probably most played on IC.. and Mina in DG.
Omg the item system! Ability power simply improves Ability damages. No thinking about if this Ability scaled better with ad or ap or nothing. Everything was like a decade ahead of its time with that game.
@@tiedyedbeard3439 plus they followed the vitality of the character, so if you played Fengore, you were likely to build stuff out of Hunger, so Consumption, and Desire Voluc was Consumption so you understood what stats were important to him, and how Assimilation/Voracity were probably good things to get
"Toxic" doesn't mean asshole. It's just a buzzword used to describe jokes, shit talking, celebrations, critiquing, and pretty much anything besides complimenting everybody for everything.
@@johnnycaralta Yeah, toxic doesn't mean anything anymore. The word was misused for way too long But in the context of gaming, plenty of people are assholes. Blaming their team, getting angry and screaming at people, never accepting responsibility for their own failures
@@johnnycaralta Here we were, deeply convinced "not everything adversarial is mean" would be followed up by "I only support what's adversarial as long as it's not mean", but no... You specifically doubled down on supporting what explicitly and unequivocally is mean-spirited behavior.
"this solved toxicity!" Dawn Gate was the first game I was called a slur lmao they didn't solve anything, people would hostage you constantly because they all knew how this worked and you had to do whatever they said or you wouldn't get any progress
If you realy believe that Dawn Gate did not have a much nicer community than all the other MOBAs, then you must be part of the toxic people who even bring this shitty behavior into online gaming.
Yeah, people who thing Dawngate was all nice and friendly are delusional. Or they just didn't play very much or at a high MMR. What were the karma rewards? Curious he doesn't mention them since he probably knows how pointless they were. Just that they are "really good," you could get the materials to buy shapers... Dota gives you all the characters for free. The Karma system is merely the difference between a weak Exalted roll, or the Divine roll
Maplestory did a version of this for party quests. In the end, a black market arised where people would stand outside the party quest area "buying likes" or "trading like for like" 😅
Amazing how easily abusable the system is. I'd merely threaten people to give me stuff or do as I command or purposefully withhold an approvement. Easy as can be.
i like the idea, ive seen a similar concept implemented in the beta version of the game foxhole, havent played the full version but in the beta you could give people commendations for good work which would eventually rank you up, and it wasnt all about fighting either, you also had to manage your logistics, have people gathering supplies, loading them up, driving them to the front lines, took a lot of working together
I'll always love the fact that Thor and I write our "2" in the same way. That's the only way to print the number. If you're a flat bottom 2 enjoyer, you can't be my friend.
Counter Strike's philosophy on allowing it is the best. You won't get the same rage clips for a competitive game anywhere else. Very recently broky got very animated with his middle finger(s) to the enemy team and the casters had a laugh (and everyone watching).
So what happened was, all my friends unfriended me, then we all searched for each other in matchmaking, and voila!! We beat the system and the nerds was all so confused
Depends on the punishment I think. If the punishment for cheating was your PC being fried, not many would take that risk (assuming it was a good game). It's no longer a Steam account and/or a new copy of the game; it's not thousands of dollars at risk. I'm talking about confirmed cheating, multiple humans verifying through replays and admin tools like what Camomo does in his Rust content. Personally I'd like to see both. Fantastic and highly desirable rewards for not being an asshole and wrath of god punishments for cheaters.
@@StAjoraGamesIf the punishment for being mean was having your PC fried, you just wouldn't play the game. Never know when some trigger happy mod or some toxic lobby vote kills your system
@@StarryxNight5 Tell me you didn't read it without telling me you didn't read it. "If the punishment for cheating.......multiple humans verifying through replays and admin tools"
Dude dawngate is such a throwback Remember playing it back in the day, there was this squirrel boomerang lady she was fun as hell Really really sad it never took off...
Or...hear me out on this. Maybe if you are forced in a team game with 4 braindead monkeys with an ego big as a house, at least have rewards for playing the game if your stats are good even if your teammates do everything in their power to drag you down. Toxicity is born from suffering for things out of your control, knowing that at the end of the game even if you have an afk in team or if one of your teammates just want to actively ruin the expetience for your team, even when the loss is ensured, you are mitigating the penalty by playing the game in the best way and if your stats shows that you did great even with an handicap you will be rewarded, maybe not like a win, but more like a mitigated loss.
alternatively people got alt accounts or "unfriended" their friends to vote them. Unless the terminology is "can't vote people you are in a party with" then you solve only a part of the problem. Whale problem or if it was gonna be free to play like it probably was then you just have a problem in full. Also...game got cancelled and never released...so lets not say it solved something when it only had an untested theory.
@@StrayFire did they say that? Other games with systems that don't let friends up vote or honor you certainly don't "track your past friends"...so there is no reasonable reason to assume that this one that didn't even launch would.
I remember that system and it was super good. Genuinely crazy to me that no games replicate it. You also had to vote as part of increasing your own reward so if someone was so toxic that you wanted to reduce their reward it cut into your reward - So you would only not give others the reward if they were toxic enough to make you willing to have less reward just to punish them
One time in a dream someone handed me a book that had the phrase on the back cover: "When I use a tool I am used by it just as much as it is used by me."
I've seen the opposite of this happen with employee reviews. It was a great team and bad reviews were rare because we were just demolishing tasks, and we had a fantastic manager. However, HR demanded that we had one poor performing person on the team and we knew it, so we just rotated. One guy just had a kid, someone stepped up to take the mediocre review that we were mandated so he got the good one and could better provide for his children.
Maaaan I remember playing the beta for Dawngate with 300ms (US servers, im scandi) and having a blast. Even joined a random clan who I still talk to this day. It was brief, but 100% the best experience I had ever playing a MOBA
I had friends mention that you could just get into game with eachother and then unfriend eachother if the game allowed to get around this. I put forward that the solution to that is if the game kept track of people you had been friends with for x amount of time even after unfriending them.
The only problem then is one that exists in siege rn where queuing with friends means you can't get commendations and you're being punished for queueing
One thing about the Dawn Gate system is that it was a form of positive reinforcement, whereas if I understand correctly most moderation is negative reinforcement. Dawn Gate passively allowed anyone to NOT be positive, if that's what they really didn't want to do. Just do your own thing -- for 10,000 years' grind. :D You had to CHOOSE to be helpful or friendly or whatever for those votes. In education, studies have found that people respond better to positive reinforcement than to negative reinforcement. The subject chooses to perform the desired behaviors or actions, instead of doing any random uncontrolled thing to avoid punishment.
