Finally a trim tutorial with separate feed of an actual stick! All the other videos just reference the controls overlay. Your content really is a cut above the rest! Another well made and detailed guide 👍👍👍👍👍
Cheers! I felt it quite important to show the physical stick, pity i couldn't figure out a way to show rudder pedals too, so i made a point of making noise with them.
This is an absolutely critical video! Flying helicopters is challenging, and adding the trim abstractions without understanding what they do can cause so much frustration. Thank you for taking the time to really dive into this and all the issues with each mode.
Would be better if they could make a double-press trim reset button. Eg. the first press would reset the trim by half, then the second would reset it fully. That could alleviate the jerkiness of trim resetting
Great job, @RedKite. You’ve nailed it and having that old ass joy stick is a super handy way to demonstrate it. Nice! I have to say the center position killed me many times today on stream. I’m partial to the default one.
@@ToreDL87 G940 was so rad.... When the hatswitches on the throttle still worked. honestly FFB is kinda gimmicky from the perspective of using the G940 for the last decade. wanna upgrade soon.
Disabling trim on the rudder pedals is a great tip. Thank you! I’ve been flying with no trim and it’s been ok, just a little taxing on long cruises. As long as I can get the cyclic trimmed, I’m good to go :)
I have rudder pedals where I can easily unhook the spring (MFG Crosswinds) which I now use for helicopter flying: so much more intuitive and no tired legs.
I do this on the Mi24, but leave trim on for the Huey. I’ll have to try pedal trim off on the Apache, I’m comfortable with manual pedals from years of IL2 German planes. Sounds like a good compromise.
It would definitely be beneficial to have a 'trim reset' or recentre button, even though it isn't present on the actual aircraft. It is possible to fly effectively without it as long as you keep mental track of your trim position, but it would certainly be helpful for the vast majority of users who have spring sticks that don't work the same as the real aircraft... A good argument for usability over realism in this case, hopefully ED will take notice
10:37 A "damper" is something that controls movement, usually adding resistance to motion based on motion velocity. A "dampener" is something that makes you moist/wet. =)
@@RedKiteRender No worries, and a great video Kite, always loved your tutorials. Just one of those things I run into a lot and has become a pet peeve. :D
If ED would add a recenter timeout to the central position trimmer mode that restores control after a short time regardless of whether you recentered your controls or not, it would alleviate the problems with that trim mode.
You know ... I had so many people argue with me about how devs shouldn't add "Reset trim" as a QoL change, luckily bignew said that it's on their todo list now. Just non-stop ... "We don't need trim reset, wags made a video about it just change the special options mode for trimming and you won't have issues" And I'm just like ... "What on earth ..." I was getting to a point where I wanted to make a video to basically explain to people why it would be good to have but I just suck at describing the issues and don't really have the time or the will, your video is like spot on my man, only thing I could do is thank you. Thanks man.
I honestly don't get the pushback on having a Trim reset control. It's a quality of life / accessibility addition to deal with the lack of force feedback. I'm always in favour of optional extra settings for players. (trigger guard is another I'd like to see a toggle for!) If you don't like it, don't use it, just like the other trimmer mode options.
People like to impress some sort of superiority over others and get offended at the idea that someone else wants something 'easier' because it takes away from their personal sense of achievement. It's all rather silly.
When it comes to these modules there needs to come to a point where some "realism" is sacrificed for in game functionality. While a trim release may not be realistic to an Apache, it makes up for the fact that a person playing a sim at a desk doesn't have the same feedback as a pilot in an actual Apache. Not to mention someone flying a real Apache isn't staring at a controls indicator, to center things in order to release trim. Something as simple as a guarded switch in a real aircraft is as easy as flipping a guard and pushing a button in one basic movement. Some people will say it's not realistic to just flip the same switch in game, so now we get a separate command to lift the guard. Now I have to bind something to simulate releasing a guard just to flip a switch on my hotas. This in itself isn't realistic being that the guard in the real aircraft has no electrical connection to the aircraft, it's simply a spring loaded guard. Now lets say I build a cockpit, with an actual guarded switch. I still have to come up with some creative way to have the sim recognize when the guard is up or down in order to use it. As modules get more advanced, with more features added, they're becoming more complicated than the aircraft they're designed to emulate.
Exactly. I don't understand why this is seen as a problem. I couldn't figure out why I couldn't use the weapons from the back seat and it was because of the trigger guard. Seriously? There is literally no point to have that be necessary. At least they are implementing a trim reset now. I saw someone ask for that and Wags literally just responded, "AH-64 doesn't have that." Ok dude, no one cares, this isn't the real aircraft and I'm sitting at a desk trying to fly it.
I have the VKB MCG Pro as joystick grip. I selected it over Virpil because it has better capabilities like the brake lever is an axis, and the flip trigger is as well an axis. Because these are axis and there is sensor to detect when the flip trigger is up or down, you can simulate multiple different real world grips. Example, in KA-50 you have the flip up trigger so that when it is UP, the gun is selected and the dual-stage trigger (red) is trigger for cannon. When the trigger is DOWN, the gun mode is disabled and you have your inner/outer stations selected and you launch the weapon by pulling the flip-trigger fully. Now do that same with the Apache now. But reverse. Flip trigger UP = Armed. Flip trigger down = Safety. The difference is that you say, in real trigger that safety is spring loaded, so it will cover the trigger again, where in MCG Pro you don't have spring to return it down. But you will get that exact same functionality that to fire weapon, you need to place finger under the safety cover and shoot. To avoid this "cheating", we can use exactly that programmed "safety up" feature, so because there is space to slide finger under Flip Trigger, you can't use trigger as you have not removed safety. That is the nice feature to just understand that you have a cover you need to deal with, and just by grabbing or pumping grip when flip-trigger is down will not fire the weapon so you must realize to remove safety. This flip-up trigger is amazing feeling in KA-50. And so as well in Apache. Binding to joystick only the real functions that real grips has, and same thing with collective (or throttle if flying fixed wing) that you really don't need so many buttons and features in any of them, you have less functions to make, and you enjoy with the limited real world grips functions as you are required to move hands around in virtual cockpit to operate aircraft instead just pressing buttons in throttle or joystick that is not suppose to have such functions. In my MCG Pro I have seven buttons in it. 1) UP 2) Virtual button for modifier (UP) 3) Down 4) Virtual button for modifier (Down) 5) First detent 5-50% pull. 6) Second detent when physical spring loaded button is pressed. 7) Full pull (90-100% scale) One trigger, six functions. Under there is that dual-stage red trigger, and I can change its functionality with that 2nd virtual button modifier, so I can have example PTT in the first detent, and then have Autopilot Override with second detent. If I go quickly to second, first detent is ignored and I can fly in Su-27 without disabling level flight as should. If I just pull first I get PTT, and then same time VoiceAttack reacts and listen microphone and I can speak the radio commands. And when I want to use missiles in BVR mode, I flip trigger down, now I can launch missiles with gentle pull to first phase, or I can quickly pull to select a gun, and then gentle pull will fire the gun. To deselect gun I either flip trigger up or I quickly pull fully and release and I am back to BVR mode (problem if need to go back to A-G mode). The axis are powerful features with virtual buttons. I have three buttons in the brake grip. It is full axis, but then there is one virtual button for 0-5%, one for 30-50% IIRC and then one at the end at about 95-100% And this way example when I am up in the air, I can command something with full pull when axis reacts only for wheels brake but as they are not extended you don't have conflict etc. I can make that grip as extra button for paddle switch in hornet just by touching that grip slightly. Or I can have it as modifier for T-rudders work as brake pedals for taxiing. But the key is that you take the programmability, and then implement real functions to closest possible right places. Example, the left mini-axis stick is in A-10 and F-16 the TDM 4-way hat. The center 5-way hat is the DMS hat. It doesn't matter to me that they are different feeling and shape, as both are programmed 4-way hats in secondary virtual hat mode to where I can switch when switching modules in DCS.
I really miss the Sidewinder FFB. I never understood why they quit making them. They worked so good in WW2 planes also, because you could actually feel the plane. Both center trimming and instant you still have to center the controls. I found attitude trim works best when flying to a WP.
I still use a 20+ year old MS Sidewinder FFB stick when flying in DCS. It's immersive and fun in VR even if the deadzone and plastic buttons may not be as great. Amazed it still works though. I do hope to see more main streamed force feedback solutions in a soon future if possible (and do hope the patent isn't renewed, it deleted the FFB from the flight sticks). Btw. I also love the Ah64 IHADSS integration in VR.
@@fermd83 I'm so sorry, answered and watched this while not having my equipment at hand. I repost an answer here as soon I got it and can run DCS in vr again. (It may take up to two weeks.) Guess I would have the same problem, hope to find a solution.
@@fermd83 Hi, Finally got back home and got time to messed around a little bit in DCS with the trim and my MS Sidewinder. And of course I got my self some other issues with the trim at first, it did correctly on looking at the joystick helper thingie (ctrl+enter), but the force feedback just kicked the stick in the opposite direction, like it reset the center as if it was mirrored. (It may just be me how's not used to how this should work). At a few times I got it to work like I wanted and I don't recall my stick to offset, if so not by very much. But have a theory that it has to do with the deadzone for our sticks, that does that, it stop sensing where the joystick are as soon the stick center itself inside its own deadzone. Fortunate for us, ED have now implemented a trim reset button. Sorry for taking so long with my answer.
I've actually never had a problem with how "intuitive" it is I guess because having some of that disjointed-ness has always been something I've expected with helos? The fact that I have had to exclusively use a twist stick to fly them so far may explain part of that too. What I have had, though, is trouble with the trimmer mode- I don't like return to centre because I find it too slow and obviously with force feedback there is zero delay, so I usually have to be pretty careful when not using return to centre and you'll catch me getting clever with it and realesing the pressure on the stick very fast, which with practice I do find works well. I also absolutely suffer from loosing that range of motion when trimmed, but equally "counter trimming" has just become a part of my workflow when I need to do a hard manoeuvre, I just slam the trim wherever I need and it has at this point become intuitive and natural. I really only found myself doing this with the KA-50 anyway as it lets you really throw it around and can take a little longer than I expect to react to things, unlike the Hind which is big and lumbering, but expectedly so. For me this renders the on screen controls display unnecessary, which is good because I personally find it unbelievably ugly, irrationally so, I can't even tell you why. Maybe I think it's mocking my abilities or pride or something.
Phenomenal video, and a little tip for the audio maybe cut the bass frequencies a little bit? It may also be just because you’re too close to your microphone but it makes the words you say a little hard to hear because it’s kinda muddy
Since my current flight stick is a Logitech Extreme 3D Pro---spring action and no FFB---I'm rather inspired by FFB when I discovered herewith that there's more to the FFB than an effects enhancer that simply rumbles on impact with some virtual entity :) Around 5:20 you begin to demonstrate respective trim choices under "Special" settings....... in the "Instant" mode you explained what I recall was particularly difficult to grasp when I'd bought the A-10C Warthog standalone in 2012 or so....... "cumulative" effects to trim were tough to manage; I actually wondered why such an effect would be of any value and if that was the actual trim system in the real-world A-10?!?! Around 6:20 you cover the cumulative effects to rudder trim. Admittedly an "empty vessel" of advanced knowledge at this point, I'm often compelled to attempt to trim out the spinning on takeoff and/or the constant left-rudder hold until underway in forward flight. I'm a bit confused about rudder, though...... I can only presume that up to a certain speed, only tail rotor blade pitch works the yaw, then at a certain speed rudder can take effect........ (?). Yet another work of excellence here, RedKite. Thanks!!
As you speed up, the aerodynamic effects will stabilise the aircraft (same way a plane does) So you need less anti-torque (yaw) input to fly straight. You also generate extra lift, as a result of the two combined you burn less fuel in flight than a hover. The anti-torque becomes less effective at speed, because the airframe wants to weathervane back into the direction of travel, so rolling and pitch is necessary to change directions at that point.
Well, there is a reason why I preserved my Sidewinder FF stick as long as possible. Personally, I was very sad when FF died, I had really hoped to see more FF sticks, especially of the HOTAS variation. But they never showed up on the market. Back in the early 2000s, my FF stick usage was the secret of my success at "Warbirds"...
It always was the secret of success in Il-2 as well. It basically carried over to Rise of Flight (extremely good implementation) and BoX. Logitech tried in 2009 with the G940, but that thing had some major flaws and was pulled from the market quickly without the very much needed Rev 2. I still use my old FFB2, it basically hit legal age. It's my second one though. They both have a faulty twist axis and when that happened with the 2nd, I just bought pedals back in 2006. That way I made the step to have them and a backup stick at the same time. Never needed to pull that one out of the box though... this thing is rugged AF. And I know quite a bunch of people who bought a second or even a third one back in the day, just for the case they might need a replacement. This shows how great it was and still is. I mean, who's got a spare TMWH, Virpil or VKB around, just for backup reasons?
I've been at it fighting with the controls the entire way for like six weeks now, and was taking pointers from people with the FFB (mine is spring), and had sooo many issues with the Apache. This is EXACTLY what EVERYONE needs to see FIRST! Most. Important. Video. Available.
One important advice for the "Central Position Trimmer mode", use the "force trim release" button, as a "release the trimming force" button and not like a "trim now" switch! The trim action happens on release of the button, not when you depress. Depress and HOLD the "trim release" whenever you turn, accelerate or decelerate, basically whenever you don't just make the small corrections. If you learn to remember the rough position of the stick (and or look down to check) and put it there to "pick up" the position with pressing and holding the trim release, you minimize the problems with the limits of the physical sticks movement, plus it does not require multiple quick trim inputs. Btw. this works for the Huey, Ka-50, Mi-24 and Mi-8 as well.
We have a real-life, mechanical "trim release" trigger on our SDZ-54 Perkoz gliders, for pitch trim. A trigger on the stick you reach with your little finger. Releases the pitch trim springs so that they move with the stick. Release the trigger and whatever angle the stick is at is now the trimmed position.
@@RoamingAdhocrat Yep, gliders use a simple mechanical "trim release", but keep in mind especially in gliders the pilot feels the forces acting on the controlsurfaces through mechanical linkage. A helicopter uses a hydraulic system, that feels totally different, if "trim release" is depressed or force trim deactivated completely. I had a chance to feel it once, but not fly it IRL. You can really move it without applying much force, like holding it with the fingertips. The hydraulics do the job.
Capitalism happened, patent holder wanted all the money, sued the competition, priced consumer targeted hardware out of the market. Now only professional sim hardware has it, and runs you $1000's to get one.
In my experience with the huey, trim reset was something I only used when my stick was already close to centered (often when I am in the middle of a hover transition). Otherwise, the aircraft goes absolutely crazy because of the sudden change in control inputs. I also don't enable rudder trim because I have never encountered a situation where I can have both stick and rudder centered at the same time. Because of this, trim reset is never a safe option if I have rudder trim enabled. I can only use one or the other.
ED just needs to add the reset function like in the other helicopters and problem solved. I have the trim turned off on my rudder pedals, I like full authority over the tail rotor
@@Viking355th cheat yea - ED doesn't get it straight for years getting useful features implemented. It seems like they think everyone has an exact replica of each module peripherals at home. So stupid.
I hope there will be some kind of anti-torque rotor stabilization function added (so it will hold constant heading when the rudder axis is centered no matter if the helo is in a hover or at speed). I've read somewhere that this feature is actually on a real Apache, but I might be wrong on that assumption.
I wish too it would be a feature or a setting that you can switch on/off in the special tap, I have gotten use to the ka 50 counter rotating rotor when I jumped in the apache the rudder shat in my pants
I see five Force Trim/Hold control options. AL/RIGHT, AT/LEFT, D/DOWN, R/UP and a reset. When you say push the button , which of these are you referring to?
i believe the patents owned by microsoft and immersion on FFB have all expried now, so was sincerely hoping some of these manufacturers would put one into production with the ever-rising popularity of DCS and MSFS2020. I really hope they do, i would be the first in the queue to grab one!
@RedKite Thanks for making this video. I actually have owned a MS SW FFB2 since it was brand new in 2006. (Best Buy at the time was discontinuing them and I actually got the display model! Glad I did lol.) I also have rudder pedals with springs. I normally always just leave the FFB2 unplugged from power for everything I do, but this is interesting. So if I want to use it the way you show it at the beginning of this video, then I'll select "Joystick without springs and FFB" for that, correct? Another thing, the FFB is only active when I have my hand on the stick from all my previous experience with it, like it somehow has the ability to sense that your hand is there or not. I have, however, put a piece of tape on the stick before to make it active all the time. Do I need to do that to achieve what you were doing in the beginning of your video, or does DCS somehow handle this for you? Or did you modify yours somehow to achieve it being active all the time? I'm actually pretty excited to try this and think it will make flying the Apache a lot more fun, not to mention easier. As for the pedals, I guess I will just have to experiment with the 2 more conventional modes. By the way, what is the command in the DCS controls setup called for working the trimmer? Thanks so much, again. =D Dan
Excellent analysis. I currently fly with the Warthog without main spring to fly without trim at all. So sad, we don't have any new Force Feedback Stick Systems on the Hotas-market right now. Glad to see your Sidewinder FFB stick still works. These were great times!
I really appreciate you making this video. Looks very time consuming but benefits all of us. I've been trying to disable the trim for the rudder since I'm so used to the KA-50.
In short, it's the usual ED problem where they make a textbook obsessed simulator and never take any "artistic license" to actually make the SIMULATOR usable for the end gamer... as we don't actually have physical apache sticks. Same issue with a-a refueling lighting etc etc
Great Tutorial, made me pick up a Sidewinder FFB Pro and have modded for USB. In Forcetest it works a treat, but in DCS, when it loads it releases the motors, but once I start flying it doesn't seem to be working. Using FFB option in stick but no joy, am i missing something else?
I have a Warthog modified with very soft springs and TPR pedals set to minimum resistance. What I do is basically not trimming the helicopter at all at the moment. I have learned to use the cyclic with both hands, so if I need to use my right hand for mouse input, for example, I just swap hand on the stick. I am sure a “real” hely pilot never let the controls go anyway...
Just got VPForce Rhino FFB joystick (yep, they DO exist :D), and for the first time in 10 years of simming I can fly helicopters how they are meant to be flown.
So, with a normal X-56 HOTAS (spring, no FBB), you would recommend central trimming? So I can release the controls to insert coordinates, for example, when in a nice cruising configuration. Edit: definitely, central trimming works for me, I've been able to set a nice cruise and work inside the cockpit without problems, thanks a lot for this video!!!
That last statement on FFB sticks - well... There actually are FFB bases that you can buy. Brunner makes them - but they are fairly costly at around ~1500 buckaroos. You can also buy an FFB base from walmis (Vpforce Rhino) and it's "only" over 800 euros, so half the price - but also with better internals. A good deal if you ask me, but I understand it very well that not many people are willing to pay that kind of cash. (It is freaking great, though, for helicopters and non-FBW airplanes especially, but you can also use some FFB effects in FBW planes, which is pretty great as well)
Ah, man. The Microsoft Sidewinder. Truly a more civilized age. I could punch myself for getting rid of mine back in 2002. I was of the impression a number of far more developed and advanced offerings were on the horizon. Nope.
I miss my old MS Force Feedback stick. I picked it up on Ebay for £5 around 2004. Only downside was it had the pre-USB connector, which plugged directly into the graphics card. When those eventually became redundant I think i binned it. Didn't think at the time I should have just bought a USB converter cable. Damn! :(( Anyway thanks for this tutorial. Being new to helis on DCS, helicopter trim was confusing the hell out of me. Now it all makes sense....well, mostly makes sense.
Great stuff! Thanks. However, I find there is now a ‘Trim Reset’ control option in my latest Apache Module. But, using the special settings you suggested I find I’m unable to ‘detach’ the torque pedals from the trim system???
Are you saying that unlike the Huey (for example) DCS did not provide a Reset Trim function that can be programmed into your stick ? If that's the case then that is just STUPID. I have always used the Central Trimmer Mode and Trim Reset with all Rotary Wing Modules and it works perfectly once you understand it (which takes about 5 minutes with a proper instruction).
0:21 I see, you're a man of culture as well! 12:18 Oh, what's the KW doing there? This video's TL;DW: We. Need. Moar. FFB. Devices. And not just sticks or bases.
Great video. Are you running any curves/saturation with your FFB 2? I find the Apache to be very twitchy, even with 60 saturation (no curve) on the cyclic.
Um. I still use a Sidewinder 2 for helicopters in DCS because I don't have pedals. It sort of works in the Gazelle (Because the trim just disables the FFB completely and doesn't change the centre when you turn the mag brake back on), is *excellent* on the Hind and the Apache- well, god knows. I haven't gotten it to work yet. Also the lack of hats makes me sad.
RedKite, it is about time I disagree with you. Once I had the M$ force feedback stick, and it is the worst POS I ever laid my hands on. In my humble opinion, force feedback is just a expensive gimmick I can live without.
Well I've literally just been flying the Apache with my razer keyboard no HOTAS so surely people can do it with one, will be getting the Virple HOTAS just not arrived yet
4:06 the "Trim Reset" is not going to help there. It is actually doing things even worse. The case scenario that you have just run out the cyclic range is rare, and if you now would suddenly need to move cyclic as much to oppositive direction is rare as well. But if you end up to such situation, last thing you want is that the new cyclic control input is instant by moving joystick somewhere and reset trim and cyclic would instantly jump in the new position. Now you are in serious problem. All the time the control inputs should be smooth, slow and predictable. And to get from full forward trim as in your example to full aft, is really just "pull back, trim, center, pull back". And in properly flown helicopter you never end up to such situation that you need to reset trim. After flying Apache with TM16000 and using centering trim (default), it is super easy to handle Apache even in aggressive maneuvers where actual problem is the amount of torque, not the need to trim and center. Still, best option any helo player can do is to remove the spring in their joystick and just have "springless, non-FF joystick" or "FF joystick" if having one. You will always maintain that idea where the cyclic is and never need to recenter or instantly move virtual cyclic. Instant trimmer mode (FF mode) is best for tiny movements. If you are constantly making small adjustments and trimming by clicking every second, it works great. Just move little bit stick and trim, trim, trim and it keeps adding up. But if you want that hold+movement feeling, then default is best, as you quickly learn that centering joystick after each trim and you don't run out of trim. And really getting pedals separated is huge advantage. They will brake your mind if you don't.
I had the sidewinder ffb 2. It was not so costy, like 100 euros with conversion. But now you can’t find a ffb base for our sticks less than 1500 euros. It’s so bullshit we are , simmer, cash cows… if thrustmaster would sell ffb base at 150 bucks they sure make golden balls cause all the simers would buy it. I don’t understand why There is no ffb base at a sodomyless price. For the apache trim, i have no issue flying with the middle trim’s option. When you understand how it works it’s good. But if I had a ffb base, it will be so much better….
What gets me is ... i fly the Huey in DCS for Years now and use the Trim constantly... and no Problem there with my Spring Cyclic .... but somehow this dosnt work in the Apache
If you have the budget for it, Brunner has some really good FFB controls for the home sim market. I have two of their joysticks, which I recommend. Didn’t pony up for the rudders.
I know it's my opinion but the central position trimmer mode seems to be the best option overall provided you're thinking ahead and making the trim corrections in advance of velocity/attitude changes (The trim is to combat hand fatigue - once the trip leg has been made and it's time to start changing speed, you are removing the trim and placing the burden back on your hand) It's an increase in the mental workload (same as instant) but this increase in workload normally comes at a time before interactions have dire consequences for errors. I've killed a LOT of Apaches in the last few days before I gave up and started enabling the Controls/Trim position overlay (RCtrl+Enter) I hated having it up because of how it affected my immersion, but considering I'm working with a spring centering stick, It's really the only way to give you reference in absence of a FFB stick. My flights have since become a lot smoother, and while I may still occasionaly bend a rotor, I'm no longer totalling airframes. Great news that they will be adding a reset!
Hi There. Question on the FFB2, mine always returns to middle/center, not like you show where the null position gets "relocated". Can you help with settings?
This video was really well made and you explained the trim very clearly. The trim in DCS helos has always felt weird to me, and now I know why, thanks a lot!
May have to go pull my G940 stick out of storage and see if it still works. I think it was ghosting the inputs a bit which was why I switched to a tm16000 years ago. I assume ED will add a trimmer reset soon.
Just note, the values of trim are not multiplied, but added. It is trimmed position+axis commands. By saying "multiplied" it sounds like trimmed position * axis command Refer to 6:35
I see you’re using the WinWing F-16ex stick. I just got mine and I love it. What’s your take on it with the extra switches and hats and axis’ available?
IDK if it's me who didn't get exactly what u said .. or it's actually working first of all i'm a KB/M pilot 1 the instant trim mode is not really helping .. i end up fight it .. and deciding to reset it and fly without trimming it 2 the central trimmer position mode .. i feel it doesn't response the same way explained 3 the third mode is what i'm asking about : i didn't got any of issues i've faced with the other two modes .. so is it really trimming or it's me just imagining that it's fine ?
I think this DCS trim mechanic is so shit, absolutely not user friendly unless you have a FFB joystick. It needs to be a trim reset button for those who not flying with FFB and / or with the control inputs window.
So, why didn't they have this problem fixed before release. There are alot of Warthog type flighsticks out here that you would assume NL would have tested this during the past year.
I was scratching my head for hours trying to figure out WTH was going on with my Apache Trim! Thanks for explaining what was going on! Man I miss my M$ force feedback stick now!!!! :((
I found enabling the trimmer for the pedals to be very distracting. Part of the issue is inherent to the Apache; there is no independent trim release for the pedals like there are on bette... I mean, other helicopters (UH-60, for instance). I found the best thing is to use the third trimmer option for the pedals (Joystick without springs and FFB) and just flight the return force (Or disconnect the spring from my pedals). For the stick, I prefer the first option. I hate the loss of control. For the first trimmer option, I think a setting that changes the rate at which trim position moves from the old to new center point. That could help reduce the transient when trimming. BTW, this is the best video on helicopter trim in DCS that I've seen. Very well done. I agree with just about all your points.
For those who are struggling with trim, you are not alone. Trim is one of the top three issues that real life Apache trainees struggle with during initial aircraft training. Time and iterations is what it takes, and in DCS having the control display helps to maintain situational awareness about where the trim is currently set.
never had a problem with trim and my stick. i dont use a force feedback stick i just hold the trim button to make adjustments. stops the problem you seem to have had.
Thank you for doing this, RedKite! I'm always trying to explain this to fellow users and your illustration and clear explanation will really help. Also, there's no reason DCS's "center offset" trim system should limit the control extents! That's shocking to learn! Instead it should scale so that the real-world controller extents always reach the virtual stick extents. I always assumed that was how it worked, but as I have a Logitech FFB stick, I never noticed it. No wonder I crash when I forget to turn FFB on before flying choppers! I only really noticed the issues when I got the Hind and wanted to apply trim to the pedals as is realistic for that type. (But not for any of the choppers we have that preceded it.) That's insane! They should add directional trim to choppers (which the Hind has already) as another work-around for non-FFB stick people. Not realistic, but then neither is the Trim Release that all the DCS choppers have (except the Apache though I believe they've promised it's coming).
Oh and here's another stupid thing. There's no need for the FFB FRIENDLY option as DCS disables the "return to center" BS when FFB is enabled automatically. So you can keep the special menu on "Central Position" mode and not worry about it messing you up when you use your FFB stick. If you forget to turn FFB on, you'll then be in the mode you probably prefer. (I wish I could keep FFB on all the time but it will just not play nicely with many of the DCS aircraft and even the ones it does work okay in have bad trim offsets that I wish we had an option to bias. I do use FFB on all the DCS choppers, but sometimes I don't due to all the time it takes to exit the mission/server and restart the sim to change the setting. Then the insanity begins! LOL!) It's no wonder nobody figures this out. Thanks again! ED have needed this tutorial since their first choppers came out!
RedKite you produce the best tutorials on how things function in DCS. Well done! No one else comes close in getting into the guts and problems in these modules.
