What happens if you dash a Ragavan while there's a Dress Down out? Does it have haste? Do you still return it at end of turn? Support Judging FtW on Patreon at / judgingftw
I had this exact question come up at a Modern tournament I judged a few months ago. I reached the same conclusion for the same reasons. I credit Dave's channel here for helping me get to the point I could come to the correct ruling here at the tournament. Thanks Dave!
Hm, but did you think it lost Haste, or the ability it has that gives itself haste? Same result either way, but I feel like the reminder text implies it gains haste as a result of the spell resolving this way (much like the delayed triggered ability returning to hand is also result of the spell resolving that way), not as a separate, conditional ability :)
Interesting question i thought of today: Amy has Academy Manufacturer and Parcel Myr on the battlefield. She casts Cackling Counterpart targeting the Myr. Will the Manufacturer create a Food & Treasure token?
Very interesting. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think that even if dependencies weren't a thing, Ragavan would still not have haste regardless of timestamps. If you apply the rule given to it by dash first it gains haste, but then apply dress down second, it takes away all of its abilities. The other way around is the case you detailed in the video.
If dependencies didn’t exist, and Dress Down had an earlier timestamp, then you first would remove all of the abilities from Ragavan, then it would gain haste per the instructions for Dash. That’s what I would’ve assumed what happened before he mentioned dependencies- I’m studied on how continuous effects are applied through the layers, but I struggle to easily spot what makes something dependent on another
@@faseel4392 Dependencies are pretty straightforward. If they apply in the same layer/sublayer, and one would change the text, existence, what it applies to, or what it does to what it applies to, of the other, then it depends on the other. The key is that this applies only to the current board state. You don't have to think about all the possible interactions of the abilities. You can just look at the board state and work it out. If there's a dependency loop (eg two things are dependent on each other), timestamps are simply used. One other caveat - a CDA can't be dependent on a non-CDA and vice versa. CDAs are always applied first.
Interesting! Great breakdown. I thought Dress Down was a single event that only took away abilities of creators already on the battlefield. I figured if it was ongoing, it would say something like "creatures have no abilities."
If it were going to be a single event, there's no reason not to make it an instant. I think the reason they didn't template it like you said is because people might get confused and think that the creatures could just not have any abilities at all, which is not so (if you play a Jump after Dress Down enters, the creature would still have flying).
Good afternoon! Huge videos, thanks for all this time! Btw, I would like to see a video where layers from cont. abilities and also stated based actions would be compared. I imagined one case where a walking ballista had all the dress down abilities, and there were an ajani's welcome in the battlefield, and also an strict proctor, and also an ashes of the aborrent. I don't know if there could be an easier example, but an explanation of all this process would be huge, specially explaining the order of when stated based actions are checked, when triggers start waiting to be later to the stack, when layers from cont. abilities are applied, and when finally the triggers go to the stack
I believe my long-form presentation on SBA's should give you the information you need to answer all these sort of questions: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-B2uEodr1Vf8.html
Here's a question, if you could reliably make Dress Down a creature before the end of each turn would you still have to sacrifice it or not? Would it lose the ability to make "Creatures lose abilities", and in turn, lose its ability to lose its abilities? 😂 I think I know the answer but I'd like to see a judge untangle the layering and decision making on this 😁
It would lose the ability to make creatures lose abilities after applying it (see opalescence + humility), effectively not losing it. And the sacrificing thing has actually already been ruled on - it loses its abilities, so it doesn’t have “At eot, sac this.”
So I couldn’t remember my ordering but now I think I know what I did. Late game I was in aspiringspikes UB or esper ice control deck. Both players close to basically top deck mode. My op dashes ragavan and now I think it was likely beginning of combat I flash in dress down trying to stop op from gaining cards/damage/advantage. This must be where I got ARCHMAGE’S CHARM from. So I steal the ragavan and it did not bounce to ops hand. The start of my turn I draw counterspell! And ragavan has haste back which was kinda funny and I attack with a flipped thing in the ice and Ragavan(yeee haw)! Than on my endstep it bounced back to there hand which was sad but them now being deeper in top deck mode they try to dash him back out but now I have the counter to answer it lol. I won that game! Also was playing on mtgo so wasn’t confident in any of this but it turned out to be a fun one
Hi I have a question concerning the shrine for the new kamigawa neon dinasty The shrine are now creatures so will it be added as a creature type ? I know that it won't matter for the the changeling on a nromal level but what if you control Enchanted Evening and make it an enchantement in addition ? Will it not become an enchantement with shrine ?
Follow up question regards Ragavan's other ability. Ravagan attacks, deals damage and exiles a card. Then, Dress Down is played. Can Ravagan's controller cast the exiled card until eot?
I'm surprised I managed to nail this one from the off. Abilities that affect the card directly seem to interact with the rules differently but ooooo boy this one was fun
I had a rules question that came up in a game of commander. I control a basic forest and 3 nonbasic lands. I cast Skyshroud Claim, and grab another basic Forest, as well as a Cinder Glade, which enters tapped unless I control 2 or more basic lands. I'm pretty sure the Cinder Glade comes into play untapped, since it sees both forests will be on the battlefield?
ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-AOtS5dXD4cI.html This video covers a similar timing question, but I think your example is more straight forward than the problem statement in the linked video. Cinder Glade cares about what permanents are on the battlefield /before/ it enters to check what state it will enter as. Because it is entering at the same time as the second basic it only sees one basic in play and should enter tapped. This is the same timing rule that clones and vesuva use to determine what things they are allowed to enter as copies of.
I definitely learned something new today! Could you do a video on the new Kamigawa vehicle creatures in conjunction with cards like Magnetic Theft or Ardenn?
Please, a very quick yes or no answer. Predator's Hour X Opposition agent, have the same text, but it seems that Agent allow to play a land from exile while Predator's don't. Its this correct? Or both allow it the same way? Love you channel.
Sorry, I know you said you want a short answer. TLDR: You are allowed to play lands off of both spells mentioned. Longer explanation: this is signified by the verbiage "play those cards." The "spend mana as though it were any color to cast spells" is specified because lands are not cast, and thus do not require mana to play. But the key phrase is that first "play those cards" as opposed to the phrase "cast spells" that would be present if you were not meant to be able to play lands.
Hello Dave ! Very nice interactions, and that has probably come up more than once since these two cards are out ! As a shrine enthusiast, I have two questions about the new shrines from kamigawa neon dynasty. What happen when I have Go Shintai of Shared Purpose and Sanctum of All out with 4 other shrines ? Do I get to pay 1 twice ? Does the effect trigger twice when I pay the 1 ? Second question : How would you know that shrine is an enchantment subtype without asking Maro on twitter during preview season ? I beleive that there is a list of each type's subtype in the CR, but can a subtype be shared by two types ?
For your first question: you would get two opportunities to pay 1 and the effect would apply once for each time you paid. This is because the payment and effect are both part of the effect of one triggered ability. For your second question: The only way to be sure would be to look at the lists of subtypes and find the shrine keyword. Subtypes are never shared between two lists, but some card types share a list of keywords. Specifically, sorcery and instant share a list of subtypes; and creature and tribal share a list of subtypes. You can find the lists of subtypes here: www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#R2053g.
Judge! Question on the timing of suspend vs echo. If you use the card Suspend on a creature with echo, such as Extruder, when it comes back via suspend, do you have to pay the echo cost?
@@gonzoron I believe Echo triggers at the beginning of the upkeep, which has already passed by the time you cast it from suspend, so it would be the next upkeep.
Does dress down still remove abilities added by equipment after dress down is in play? Say for example a dress down is in play then someone equips their creature with shadowspear. Would it have those abilities?
The creature will have trample and lifelink. This is because attaching an equipment to a creature gives it a new timestamp; thus it will have a later timestamp then the Dress Down. Relevant rule: 613.7e. An Aura, Equipment, or Fortification receives a new timestamp each time it becomes attached to an object or player.
There's no interaction between those cards in that scenario. Phage the Untouchable has no activated abilities, so Necrotic Ooze doesn't pick anything up.
Phage has no "activated abilities," which is the only kind of abilities Nectrotic Ooze is looking for. A tip for identifying activated abilities is that these kinds of abilities have a colon : somewhere in their text. To be specific, Phage has multiple "triggered abilities" which "trigger" in response to effects. Triggered abilities can be identified by having "when," "whenever," or "at" generally at the start of their text.
What happens if Amy has a Heliod, Sun-Crowned that is not a creature due to lack of devotion and her opponent casts dress down? Will the continuous effect of dress down, affect the "not creature" continuous ability of Heliod, in the same way as Ragavan's in video? Is the "is not a creature" ability dependant on Dress Down's continuous effect? So, at the bottomline, can Heliod be targeted and die by an Unholy Heat with delirium after Dress Down is cast? Thank in advance for the answers!
Interesting, so because Dash has a continuous effect that determines if Ragavan "has haste," this creates a dependency? Would there still be a dependency if instead of Dash, Sneak Attack was used? (Sneak Attack says "that creature gains haste"). Also, the end of turn return to hand trigger is (was?) broken on MTGO because MTGO seems to indeed be giving the ability to Ragavan lol.
Here's my own rephrasing of the rule that defines what a dependency is. Determining dependencies (613.8a) An effect is dependent if (all 3 need to be true) 1. it's applied in the same layer/sublayer as the other effect 2. applying the other would (a)change the text or the existence of the 1st effect, (b)change what it applies to (c)change the way it affects any of the objects it applies to 3. neither effect is from a characteristic-defining ability or both effects are from characteristic-defining abilities.
As for sneak attack. It works differently, 1st you move the card, then it gains haste (being applied from an outside effect), then set up a delayed triggered ability. Since it doesn't "have an ability" that may/may not give haste and "gains haste" (it's not a static ability giving haste to itself) it will be timestamp based. So if DD is in play and you sneak attack something, that creature will have only haste and will be sacrificed at end step.
@@ozrithclay6921 That makes sense. Ragavan is the source of the ability that would give itself haste, so if it lost that ability, the haste giving ability would no longer exist. I was mistakenly thinking of the Dash ability as an external ability provider (as Sneak Attack is).
The removing of haste is incredibly unintuitive. Wouldnt that make all ability adding effects dependant if dress down entered first? So timestamp would never apply. How would you determine if a second effect was dependent or timestamped? A video on this topic would be greatly appreciated.
This is a really good question. I was originally going to put this in, but the video was already getting kinda long. Rather than waiting for when I eventually cover it, here's an explanation. Let's consider a case where the answer does depend on timestamps. If you animate Inkmoth Nexus, and there's a Dress Down out, will it have flying and infect? Notice that once the activated ability of IN resolves, there's a continuous effect that's set up giving those abilities to IN. Even though an ability from IN set these continuous effects up, they aren't an ability of IN, they just act on it. It's the same as if you had played a Jump on IN. Notice that Ragavan basically has an ability that says "Ragavan has haste". If the ability gets removed, there's nothing making it have haste anymore. On the other hand, even if IN loses all its abilities, the effects set up when its activated ability resolved are still there. Accordingly, we can't say that applying DD first will change the existence of the effects giving IN flying and infect, so there's no dependency in this case.
Situation: I dash Ragavan and bevore combat dress down is played. Ragavan loses haste. Does he return to my hand at eot? I'd argue Ragavan would return to my hand, but not before the eot of my opponent, is this correct?
The returning to hand is a delayed trigger that will trigger at the beginning of your endstep. It's not an ability that ragavan has and consequently can loose. It will return at the beginning of your endstep.
Returning to the hand is a delayed trigger created when you cast with Dash, which you have obviously done if you dashed it. Delayed triggers are created by effects and are not directly tied to abilities.
I've never seen Dress Down before. And I think this tutorial is potentially misleading. Dress down only removes creatures abilities while its on the battlefield. So doesn't remove them as shown. Its more like it adds "For now, because of Dress Down, this creature can't..." then the ability text.
