Yes, I'm aware that after filming this, there was an update....and so this video is already outdated. I'll post it in a pinned comment as well but the new gameplay pledge doesn't change my opinion of the value at all. It's a worse compromise then I thought they would go for. I assumed...incorrectly apparently, that they'd offer the second saga for $30 or $35, which I already thought was too little. Instead they offered a gameplay all in, that offers the saga for $30, but takes out the sleeves and ghost ship. Meaning they are continuing with the trend I covered in this video...not offering a single pledge option that in some way doesn't drive FOMO or feel like a bad deal. And Wednesday's video got pushed to Friday...in case I say anything about Wednesday in that video :)
I agree 100%. I am going to back the gameplay all-in, but only because I think the game seems to be a more mature design using upgradeable cards, not because it is a good value. I don’t live in the US, so the second market availability is not as good here.
@@successfulgeek Yep. At this point what I think they should do, is toss in the sleeves to that gameplay pledge. Such a small thing but I think it would make the difference.
It is called anchoring. It is a marketing tactic. The seller puts out an arbitrary price to make you think that's what the good or service is worth and then "discounts" it down to the intended price; you get "anchored" to that initial price and the lower price makes you feel like you're getting a good deal. Think QVC. A vast majority of the stuff they sell is not available in stores or is some unique product bundle that you can only get through them. They establish an inflated MSRP (even though you probably can't get whatever it is just-as that they are showing it) then they slash through that price and arrive at your "special value"
@@G0F15H Yes, the problem is it backfired. You don't anchor on a price that people have come to expect is the inflated number....and then charge that inflated number.
@@BoardGameCo Not to nitpick but the MSRP anchor tactic did work. You even used it as a baseline in Reason #4 as to why the Legendary Pledge was a good value. The reason why all this is backfiring is because AEG has stacked too many marketing schemes on top of one another and now the options are convoluted and come down to making you decide between whether $139 or $179 is the best value. And a lot of people are saying "ok maybe I don't want any of it in that case." The automobile industry is ripe with this same problem. Say I'm interested in getting a new truck. Ok I don't want the base model so I've already anchored myself to that mid-model price point. I also want heated and cooled seats. Ugh, I have to add a Comfort Package AND a Luxury Package for $5,500. But that automatically adds in seat massage and adaptive cruise control (which I don't want and certainly don't need). What's that? I'm at the Platinum model price-point. What else do I get.... Wait... I'm up to $65,000!?! Screw it, I don't need to buy a new truck. Or at least I don't want to buy a Ford.
Reasonable. I touched upon the fact that people are upset about the pricing and pledges but I could have done a better job explaining for those who have no idea what's going on.
Completely confused as well, until well in the video. I think there is too much time spent trying to make sure people who already know don’t freak out, and not enough on explaining the issue in the first place.
I think expansions in kickstarters are problematic as well. Personally, I would like to play the game first and see if I like it before I buy more of it. If an expansion is included in a good value deluxe deal, then fine. But forking over 60+ extra dollars for expansion content from the start? Nah. Also, if your game is designed to be played with an expansion, there shouldn't be an expansion. It should just be in the base game. On the out her hand, Allowing more players, introducing AI or solo play, or adding extra stand alone gameplay interactions are GREAT reasons for an expansion. It sounds like dead reckoning used expansions not to "give you more of what you like" but rather to make you feel you're playing half game if you don't.
Honestly unless it’s really good, solo/ai should be part of the base game and not nickel and dimed away. These expansions are definitely weird especially how there’s two, but adding a long term progression system definitely feels like an idea worthy of an expansion for a game like this.
An expansion designed alongside the game isn't an expansion. It is part of the game. If you don't get that expansion, the game is incomplete as designed.
Thanks for the info. I myself canceled the pledge as well yesterday but after listening to how much you love playing this game. I am back in at legendary level I’ll get it for my play group.
"Decisions I do not want to make" ... that's literally what I am sitting with. First thing - I almost always only pick up 5+player games, having 3 kids means there are 5 of us to play. Things I want at some level: + Promo cards - Space Base is the next item on my list + Custom Selves - this might not be as big a deal, but it's sorta neat and I could see helping - especially when I am working with Kids a ton and being able to identify what goes in who's deck Things I don't want/need or care about: - Ghost Ship - metal coins - we have a ton of coins we can use in any game - upgraded cargo - this might should be in the "NOT SURE" below, but I'm sticking it here. Things I am not even sure if I want or not + Sea Dogs - finding the campaign just a few days from the end ... I don't know if this is great or not, lots of FOMO with this + Saga 1 - I have no clue if this is worth anything or me or will sit on a shelf ... I value it at $0, though could see it being the most important part + Saga 2 - even less value than Saga 1, but for much the same reasons .... I don't get it. I think there really is a lack of explanation on what a lot of the stuff is, or I'm missing it because it burred in 290,000 posts/updates. Make it easier on your prospects. Really, the card upgrade system and 4X are what appeals to me ... and if it was 5 player I'd have backed it when I first heard about it. Now I'm just confused. In processing it all ... it really comes down to, they attempted to highlight parts of the base game, and did not do a good job highlighting the extras in a way that I could figure it out coming in late. If they had highlighted Sea Dogs a little (probably included like 4 or 8 in the base game) that would change the math, because then you could see the value in MORE. Custom Selves --- should have been a stretch goal ... simply put, reach the point where the base game had it. When you sell X number of the games, the increased cost of 4 backs, as opposed to 1 main and then 4 limited runs is it's better to reduce the number of backs (from 5 to 4) and simplify the processing of it all. Sagas - - I read the text, but really, I need a video on this ... a huge part of "is this for me" questions are around this. Better communication.
I really appreciate you keeping balance in this video. You stayed away from terms like: "should" and "shouldn't" or "right" and "wrong". Business is the practice of taking advantage of people. Farmers take advantage of people not wanting to grow their own food. Board Game companies take advantage of people wanting entertainment. How much advantage taken is not a moral issue. So that means there are only practical concerns or things we like or don't like as consumers. Like you expressed, AEG doesn't have a gun to our head making us buy this, we vote with our wallet. I do understand people getting upset to a reasonable degree when these things come up, but hating a company for wanting to make money (which is what these things always turn into) makes me chuckle 😆. Anyway, it was really refreshing to see someone talk about business practices without thinking the company is evil. A point about small publishers vs large: Small often are a good deal because they are putting the backer at a higher risk. So they make up margin with sweat equity. The problem is, say with Gloomhaven for example, we got huge value with the KS, but we had to wait 18 EXTRA MONTHS for our fulfillment, because of Issac's inexperience at the time. People talk about value a lot but what about other factors? I'm still waiting on Sword & Sourcery AC, and it won't be here for a long time yet. If AEG or CMON did it, I would trust it would be much closer to the projected fulfillment date and I recognize that has a value in itself.
"Taking advantage of" is an incorrect assumption. Business exists to trade one good or service for that of another. Previously, this used to be exist mostly in bartering where the goods or services were exchanged directly. With the development of a central system of commerce, money came into being. This allowed people to exchange these goods/services indirectly, vastly increasing the ease and quantity of trade. So no, business is not to "take advantage of" someone. It's to provide a good or service that someone wants. There just happen to be a certain group of individuals that believe Dead Reckoning is worth their money while another group does not. This is a purely subjective judgement. Nobody is "taken advantage of".
Great informative video. I did not back this campaign because of the price point, and when I think of it, maybe also because of some thing you mentioned here.
@@BoardGameCo Yeah, I still want a card constructing game like Mystic vale and Dead Reckoning, but somehow this did not feel like the right one for me to back. I think Mystic Vale is to much of an individual game with not enough player interaction and I did not enjoy Edge of Darkness, when I played a late prototype version of it. So hopefully they will make another one of these type of games, but then do it well. I started designing something similar, so maybe I should just work on that to make sure it will be made.
Thanks for this great video Alex! It helped me a lot to finally make my decision on that one, especially because I am still quite new to the hobby (4 months yeah! :D)! I followed the campaigns of Dead Reckoning and Perseverance since day one and just for me personally (since I am so new to the hobby) they are great examples of how to run respectively how not to run a Kickstarter campaign. I absolutely enjoyed the whole Perseverance campaign, despite that they did not have stretch goals at all. But Mindclash gave me the feeling they were really listening to their audience and that they were honestly trying to realize everything they can . On the other hand, I got more and more frustrated everyday with AEG and their daily unlocks which were a joke for me (despite the first three). And I think the last days of the campaigns are representing that very well. While Mindclash was giving their backers alternative dino designs (which many people asked for) because of the short Kickstarter outage, AEG decided to finally reveal saga 2 (which we all already knew about) and to force us to buy it for an overpaid price either way. Also their update did not change my mind about that. And I would be really interested who at AEG thought that this whole PR strategy would be a good idea... I am so sad that I will not back Dead Reckoning because the game looks tremendously enjoyable to me and I would have loved to get it. But at the end of the day I do not want to even reward them for their behaviour.
This is another reason, for me at least, for the backlash. Having another kickstarter running concurrently that continues to add value, while this one continued to add price.
This video added a lot to your credibility. Thanks. Please stay the way you are now. Even though you want to get in contact with publishers and even you played the game (and liked it!)... Thanks!
That's what I've been saying all along :) Last week I say "I'm trying to work with more publishers". This week I give AEG crap about their kickstarter in a very public forum....I never planned on not being me and I have no plans to ever stop being me. The trick is convincing publishers that if I like their game...it will mean something. Because I refuse to not be genuine.
The entire basis of Kickstarter is about adding value to your pre-retail releases (if they ever make it there). People back them because generally they know they will get a good deal. If it's not a good deal, I can't hand over my cash for a project that will take 2 years to come to fruition without it being a good deal!
I just within the last moments have cancelled my pledge and here’s why. Seems every backer got an message on Kickstarter about how much better it would be if they upped their pledge to the next level (basic -> legendary, legendary-> all in). This is so tone deaf. And if they’re not happy with the pledge I DID give them? I don’t have to give them anything.
In the end, I did back this game but the points mentioned in the video are valid, respectful, and should be considered by manufacturers. There's one point that I'm surprised wasn't mentioned. MSRP kept being used as a way of showing what kind of deal you are getting for your pledge level, but how are backers supposed to take the MSRP seriously when the game is not going to retail?
It's all meant as a comparison point. Rather than fight the concept they introduced, I chose to instead present that their own version of MSRP it seems inconsistent with what they are charging.
You have perfectly summed up my bad feelings about this campaign. I dropped my 5 dollar pledge manager pledge before seeing this video and you have completed nailed what I was feeling as a backer.
Glad I saw this. I am one to back if I am interested and revisit the campaign near the end and agree with so much that was said. I thought the pledge I had would give me everything released and was going to see everything I would now get at the end... instead, more pledges and more to spend. That is not what I signed up for so dropped it.
I want to suggest a possible future discussion video topic about the feelings, ethics, and/or ramifications associated with canceling a KS pledge? I notice a lot of people exercising their consumer right to choose, and I was wondering how the community aligns with the practice. Thanks for any consideration!
Talk about hitting the nail on the head. You articulated what I was feeling but could not really describe. I may go down to a $1. I am hoping that they offer 1 pledge level that actually seems like its worth the $$. Will see.
YES. TY for calling this out, and mentioning Lizard Wizard; a game I feel is not getting enough attention right now. There are so many pirate games this year and Dead Reckoning looked so generic to me, despite how good it might be. Lizard Wizard looks so unique and has incredibly charming artwork that they even dedicated a portion of their campaign space to. Absolutely love the "kickstarter" feel of that campaign. That said, I backed Lizard Wizard yesterday after watching Rahdo play it for 30mins and got the deluxe. Looking forward to you covering it!
@@BoardGameCo For $89+$10 shipping. . .you're paying for the artist, hands down. BUT they do include neoprene mats 6x, metal coins, and printed wood meeples that are $75 as extras. That's the kind of expenses I'm used to as addons in any given campaign but they're being included in the deluxe at a solid price WITH the game. IMO totally worth it. And my god, look at the metal coins. Not as amazing as Dark Roads, but still gorgeous.
Thanks for this video. This helped explain for me why a lot of people were upset with the campaign. I'm still backing because I want the game as soon as possible and don't want to have to deal with the secondary market, but I understand now why people feel betrayed by the campaign.
Legendary Pledge level + Saga 2 should be $139 (not to mention + shipping)... That would be the justified value I am looking for. The sagas have 50 cards these should cost about $25 for such an expansion normal retail!
Exactly! The whole MSRP angle is a bit of a shell game - but if you're going to play it, get it right. NOTHING in a Kickstarter campaign should be priced at MSRP; items should be at a discount in order to reward backers for their early dollars and compensate for the additional shipping. Selling an add-on at "MSRP" is frankly greedy - especially for a large established publisher.
Great insights about KS projects to absorb here. Your thoughts resonate with a lot of board game customers! With 20 years in business though, I doubt AEG just missed the mark on customer expectations.
Great video. What I've found crazy in the kickstarter comments in the number of people telling those that have been vocal about the things you have raised here to shut up and go away. Especially strange against those who have just been requesting a gameplay all-in pledge which seems like a perfectly reasonable request. I'm glad AEG have now gone ahead and added that, even if I'm still not convinced there is enough value there to back it myself.
Very informative video, really enjoy your content and your focus on Kickstarter (it does set you apart from the rest). And to back your point, we live in capitalism, vote with your wallets guys!
Yep. I'm not advocating that people drop their pledge....but rather that if they feel it's not worth it, then drop your pledge. Complaining while still backing will only get you so far.
BoardGameCo But there is some issue with myself that I am kinda new with the boardgame community, when I see this campaign I love it and this is also my first backed campaign by now. I don't see any similar boardgame out there. it is hard for me to drop this game.
@@ye588 Hi, you don't need to drop your pledge just because we're ranting about it here. E.g. I have a collection of at least 40 games, I am also waiting for about 8 kickstarters to arrive. People like me need to justify their spent cash and the scarce shelf place they've got left. In addition, we want this industry and it's publishers to head towards the right direction. But if you don't have those problems and just like the game, then go it get. BoardGameCo is just stating that they're not being consumer friendly with this campaign. If you don't care about that, then it shouldn't stop you. It's your money 😊
@@ye588 welcome to a wonderful hobby. You are right the game is different and if it is something you and your friends might enjoy you should go for it. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't be aware of practices that are less than consumer friendly. More bang for your buck will allow you to enjoy more games. Best of luck.
You can add no focus on gameplay / game content ; good campaigns focus on their game. Currently there is not any information on the expansions content and how they may add replayibility, new victory paths, new strategy or whatever. There are 28 sea dogs, and we don’t know if they are all different or if there are several of the same. The base game was well covered, but since then they stopped selling the game; I think the last time they actually talked about the game itself was in was of their first daily discovery which was a video. Anyway, still 2 days...
I agree with your points. I haven’t followed this campaign, I actually just came into knowledge of this game a few days ago. I’ve seen better priced bundles for sure but I think the game pushes the card crafting system even more than Edge of Darkness and I like the pirate theme more than the dark fantasy in EOD, so I think I’ll get the game with a late pledge. Sure offering us both expansions only with a pledge level way over the perceived value of the things we’re getting is not a great move. And AEG unfortunately has an history of not communicating very well with the backers. Yes, after getting some information, I can say that the campaign has been a train wreck of missed opportunities for clearness and communication. I fear that a great game will be buried under all these bad feelings and maybe won’t reach the sell point AEG has predicted. I think the game is amazing, but AEG seriously need some lectures in public relations and how to drive a good KS campaign.
Although I did back the All-In, I agree 100% with your points and almost every complaint I’ve heard. The reason I stayed is that I like the game and I like the components. As a PnP gamer and amateur designer, I often use other designers’ games to prototype. In this sense, the extras did have value to me and I could, reluctantly, justify my pledge.
One issue with their pledge levels is that to more you need to pay a higher markup. The Legendary pledge had a MSRP of $187, costs $109 for a savings of 42%. The All In pledge had a MSRP of $284, costs $179 for a savings of 37%. The All Gameplay has a MSRP of $210, costs $139 for a savings of 34%. You expect that when you buy more, you get a better price, here the value goes down, even assuming the MSRP has any meaning.
In order for me to back a game it has to be a good value proposition so if I don't like it I can sell it and not lose money or I NEED to play it right away. This does neither for me. If it is great they will do another kickstarter if its not but I still have interest I will patiently buy it years later for less than the current price. Easy decision.
We all have free will, and if we do not like something we do not have to back it. Personally I am happy with the all-in pledge, if I wasn't I would not have backed at that level. Game pricing is an interesting area, since the cost of producing 5,000, 25,000, 75,000 or 100,000 games are very different. At the beginning of a campaign a publisher does not know exactly the final cost level (they might have estimated, but of course an estimate is just that). Perhaps an alternative way of handling this, is when a higher number of pledges are secured, [say 50%] of the savings are passed to the backers by way of reduced postage.
Haha I was wondering this morning whether you would cover this topic while it's still hot. I totally agree with you that there are no pledge levels here that makes you feel good, even the new gameplay all-in tier. Feels like they could've easily given us the ghost ship and the sleeves at whopping $139 or dropped the price another $10. It also looks like putting random MSRP on everything is hurting the campaign more than helping it, especially when their math doesn't make any sense - going from legendary to gameplay-all in only adds $23 in value while it costs us additional $30. Anyways, props to you for voting with your wallet even when you enjoyed the game. I'm still on the fence about this one... I might go for the All-in pledge since I do want those metal coins and FOMO might get the better of me, but it will definitely leave a sour taste in my mouth. I'm keeping it at $5 for now to see what happens even though I don't think we'll see any changes at this point.
It reminds me quite a bit of the Railroad Ink campaign recently. Very FOMO driven and the options for add-ons were complicated and the price points made no sense what so ever.
I cancelled and switched to Perseverance. The value seemed way better and the way the company engaged with their backers made me want to reward them with my business. I may even add trickerion in the pledge manger.
@@BoardGameCo They have even added new sculpts for the dinos. I was initially disappointed when they said there would be no upgrades to components after the addition of the soldier miniatures, but I appreciate the way they listen to their backers and now that the alternate dino sculpts have been added I am all in.
And then the $80.00+ shipping to my country (Mexico). Tokyo Sidekick had shipping to Mexico for $20.00 and was one of the reasons I considered backing it.
You mean back in the days when there mostly were self-published card games with fancy artwork and where there obviously had not been a single developer in the vicinity of the project to make it a playable game? No thanks. I was naively backing creators back in the days for their "vision", but ended up with receiving "games" that quickly went to the recycling bin.
@@TorIverWilhelmsen No, i think KS should also be a tool for small company’s like black list or dragori ect. I just think the crowdfunding idea is getting somehow perverted by big players like AEG. Would you like to see a crowdfunding project by SONY or BMW on KS? I say NO!
a card crafting Saga Expansion for $45 seems like the correct MSRP. The Emergence of shy Pluto has a $30 msrp. But I paid $15 for Shy Pluto, and I'm being asked for full msrp by AEG because it's not going to retail. My choices end up: Gameplay all in - Online LGS price as if I bought the entire package for regular price, and I get 0 extras legendary pledge - Online LGS price + you get sleeves and the ghost ship free. Then I have to pay full msrp for saga 2. all in pledge - online LGS price + sleeves, a ghost ship and promo cards for free, and $5 discount on the bling. none of that feels good. Like you said CMON isn't perfect. But break down their options. Buy it later - Online LGS Price, possibly 50% off big box clearance base pledge - Full msrp+shipping, but you get a stack of boxes about the size of a small child as free extras All in - Online LGS price, but you now get a enough boxes to make a Viking funeral pyre to take yourself to Valhalla after you die and it's 50% exclusives.
I would first like to say that I love that you’re politely honest and still share your opinion. More people have to stop backing campaigns that are just to expensive. And if this game is so good and it’s a decent size company, why wouldn’t it go to retail? I saw this campaign and really debated on it and decided it just wasn’t worth it, so I backed the late pledge manager for Shiver Me Timbers instead. I also have quite a few Pirate games, Jamaica, Extraordinary Adventure Pirates, Black Fleet and Dead Mans Draw.
At this point I kinda just want base game + sea dogs. But of course there is no way to actually get this. And I doubt the second hand market here (Norway) is going to be big for this without paying through the nose for shipping. I might get Legendary but it will feel sour. And just the base game feels like it would need the dogs for that extra bit of replay ability. Excellent video though 👍
I am wondering if I should late pledge this for an all gameplay pledge (139$) . Can you tell me why I should get the sagas? I can't figure out exactly what they add to the game.
Thanks for speaking up. It is important that people have a voice about corporate missteps. It is interesting that AEG is responding with a alternate pledge. It maybe too little too late and damage their reputation permanently.
My question is the same for that double game from Mindclash with the standees rather than minis. No thank you for both... Backed Tokyo Metro and Tsujiki Market instead ;)
they put minis into the deluxe pledge for Perseverance as well as the standees after people kept asking for it. And unlike AEG didnt take anything out, it was at the same price, and they confirmed that for the next KS (episode 3-4) backers of the deluxe pledge would get them for free in that one too.
I am shocked that AEG doesn't plan to bring this to retail. I just assumed they would since they are such an established publisher. Makes me wonder what else won't come to retail. Will there be new Mystic Vale content that will be Kickstarter exclusive? Seems like a slap in the face for anyone who has supported them. Surprised more people aren't canceling their pledges.
Great video, caught in between pledges is exactly how I felt after repeatedly looking at the campaign. My reasons for not backing were that the rewards and reasons to buy felt more like "threats" than anything exciting. At the end of the day I was being upsold on a game that I was only buying because it wasn't going to retail, not because the KS campaign had anything interesting.
With a heavy heart i am reluctantly going to cancel my pledge as well. All of the reasons you have given are 100% my thinking too but for me a big thing was the saga expansions and the wishy washy explanation of what we could expect from them. This campaign has gone from my most loved to most dissapointed in the space of a week or so. Sad day...
Thank you doing this video. I have never backed a Kickstarter and was really excited about this game so visited the Kickstarter page. Now I’ve bought a bunch of things in my life (some worth it and some not). But when I got ready to make my pledge for this game, something felt off in terms of the value I was getting for the money I was pledging. And I really couldn’t put my finger on it. So I started watching a couple of different videos about the game itself. Trying to convince myself that the money I was paying was worth what I would be getting in return. But that didn’t seem to help. I then watched your play through video and thought, maybe it was worth it. But I still couldn’t press the button for the pledge. Then I watched this video. And it totally explained everything I was feeling! Thank you so much!! I’ll buy it in the secondary market, if I get it at all...
FOMO is 100% the publisher's problem. They foster it. Psychologists have worked out how to prey on people. There are good publishers who DON'T do this. They sell at retail. They include all the Kickstarter content in retail copies. And they don't fail. So everyone needs to stop making excuses for publishers using traps to get people to buy in.
Alex, your comment about expectations are so on point. I worked customer service for years and we operated on a simple principle, "Under promise, and over deliver!" If you know something may take 2 weeks to deliver and you tell the customer that and they get it in a week they are delighted. There is a balancing point because you can't just give the worst case scenario as you will lose a lot of people. There is always a sweet spot where you can ensure the majority of the time you can exceed expectation without scaring off a large number of customers. It irritates me when I see comments on Amazon where someone is complaining about the cost of something or how long something took to deliver, yet they knew upfront both things. Humans are so silly at times. Complain about the price of a game but not hesitate to spend over $5.00 on a Latte. For the record I went all in on Edge of Darkness which I backed through a retail game store. I know the store said they would never back AEG again because they ended up losing money on the deal. We all make choices. Owning a game is not a life or death proposition so the level of upset people have over games is just plain nuts.
It's very difficult to justify how this Kickstarter feels "off", and I love the reasoning you put forward. Regarding reason 3, do you think it would have been wise for AEG to shorten the KS campaign to something like 2 weeks, basically increasing the value of daily unlocks? Given that you think the gameplay all-in pledge doesn't drive FOMO or feels like a good deal.....in your opinion, what pledge level for this game would feel like a good deal?
Unsure on shorter....I'm a numbers guy and I don't know what the numbers are on short vs long....but definitely a possibility. If I were backing, I'd either go gameplay or core legendary.
Here’s a very recent reply from them regarding the latest update: “we wrote a substantive post this morning about value and how we determine Reward prices. We addressed yesterday the issues Backers have with the phrasing of the Legendary Captain Reward and Daily Discoveries. I'm not sure what other direct response we can give you at this point. If you are hoping we're going to add Saga 2 to the Legendary Captain Reward, we're not. If you're hoping we're going to lower the price of the All Gameplay Reward, we're not. We have offered you a really, really good value for this game. If that value isn't good enough for you to participate we totally understand. We know that not every Backer's budget has room for this game. But we proudly stand behind it, we think it's worth every penny (and then some) and we are convinced that the people who buy it will value it and enjoy playing it tremendously, and right now just shy of 7,000 people agree. Of course we're celebrating - the campaign is a massive success.” Let that sink in....
Every "update" they've posted in the comments section has been extremely snide, exactly like that one. The tone they're taking is "if you whining, money-less losers think this is so expensive then screw off, look at all these moneybags we scammed into it already, don't need you".
This is a pretty standard "stop asking for more" thing, could be better said but in the end they are doing exactly what is suggested in this video - managing expectations.
I have a different perspective on this. The new game-play all-in provides a way for me to get all the things I actually want at somewhat reasonable price. YES I won't get get different sleeves, but honestly I think I may prefer the original/base sleeves anyways. And the ghost ship.... yeah don't care. So the $139 game-play all-in is better to me than either the Legendary pledge+Saga2 at $154, or the frankly awful full all-in at $179. I don't want a bunch of random extra stuff - I just want the actual game and all it's sagas at a semi-reasonable price, and the game-play all-in is by far the closest to that we've been within this campaign.
Robert Purdon I can agree that it’s at least better than what we had yesterday. The sleeves would be a nice upgrade for me personally, but I much prefer having both sagas in a bundle.
I don't think think Kickstarter surprised me, I'm not an avid Kickstarter follower preferring to buy games 2nd hand, lack of stretch goals here made it easier for me to back. I was also fully expecting the daily discoveries to be little bits of game play explored showing more of what was in the box as well as the add ons. I think the people demanding that all add ons being added to the legendary pledge due to their understanding of the wording is mad. It was clear to me we would discover add ons. The community was horrendous demanding to be given more stuff in their pledge. My perception of backers of Kickstarted projects was that they were passionate about the project they backed and would give constructive feedback but the negatively and constant complaining and demanding more stuff ruined that perception. I'll not be going to the comment section of a future Kickstarter that catches my interest. Probably the wrong place to bring this opinion, guess I should fully be expecting hate in the replies here. I'll steel myself - bring it on.
Na, no hate here. We're a good crowd. I agree with you that expecting cosmetic upgrades is a bit over the top, but I gameplay I think is totally reasonable especially given their wording. Meaning the daily discovery just shouldn't have included those things to begin with, put them in updates, leave them out of the daily discovery.
I don't know, I've been around a while and been there live for all of the AEG kickstarters. They gave sooooooo much bling during their last campaign (even coins), and thunderstone had soooooooo many expansions. This campaign had nothing, that's very odd for AEG.
This is the best place to bring your opinion! Your views may challenge mine and that is brilliant because listening to what you think(as long as it is respectful and considered) will always foce me to reassess what I think and give insight into how others feel. Nothing kills true debate like echo chambers. That being said, I think you are missing the point in that it is the combination of pricing and more importantly the way that message was delivered that has caused this issue. For the most part I thought people expressed themselves well in the comments on kickstarter but there will always be a few unpleasant individuals. Raising negative issues that need to be addressed can be positive feedback because most people wish the projects to reach its best potential and are excited to be a part of it. It is how the developer responds that makes all the difference.
Couldn’t agree more with your thoughts and feelings on this KS. The gray feeling in the back of my head that said “don’t back this” has been verified. Your right, look at all the games behind you that will still bring joy and pleasure AND have been tested in the market already.
This helps explain my own feelings in a much more articulate way than i could have. I’m still a backer, but when I saw the all in pledge I thought “great, guess I need to get that.” All I wanted was the expansions and coins. It doesn’t make sense to buy those a la carte so it forces me into that all in pledge with a bunch of crap I don’t even want. Definitely have me questioning my decisions lol.
This campaign was just all over the place. I usually just watch campaigns I'm interested in and back in the last 24 hours. Dead Reckoning was on my mind a lot during the first week. The Legendary pledge was good in the beginning even with that unnecessary extra ship tower because the expectation was that more stuff was going to be added. The daily discovery was just really bad and transparent. Looking at the campaign page and seeing that each level of advancements had 23 cards. The first time they added 2 cards to one of the levels it was obvious that they just held them back and there would be 100 advancement cards. So nothing was added they were just taken out to be reveals. The first island board revealed was already in JonGetsGames video so that wasn't an addition either. Then they started with revealing add-ons like metal coins (which they sent in prototypes for people to do playthroughs and review), and upgraded cargo pieces, and then finally Saga 2 which can't be used without Saga 1. LIke you said I don't know their manufacturing costs and they weren't up front about that information but for me the better deal is $150 for base game, saga 1&2, metal coins, and sea dogs. I would be all for that pledge level. I'm still hugely on the fence because the game looks like a blast but the price point still is hard to swallow.
Thanks for the update Alex. I've been getting fed up with the price bloat in current KS campaigns and AEG finally pushed me over the edge. Ended up cancelling Dead Reckoning, Daimyo and The Shivers because of this campaign. And then you release an informative video listing similar thoughts.
Good choices! In general so much of our backing is fomo based, there are great games on KS but I'll save my money for the campaigns that give me a reason to jump in.
Thanks for doing this, your point about expectations was correct I think. This is up there with the cost of a Cmon game, except with Cmon you get 100+ miniatures, not just a bunch of cards and sleeves. And as you mention, there is no ideal pledge level, I’ll be dropping, I think you handled this well and ai appreciate you dropping your pledge based on questionable value.
Nice smart well balanced and informative video! Pretty sure you single “videoly” got the AEG Kickstarter manager/lead/creator fired or demoted or retired to their game cave indefinitely!
Holy shit I did not notice anything of all the changes. I did not back the game, because it was just too much. But adding additional pledge options is bullshit. The new options affect the current value of all pledges. Currently is holiday season and if any backer does not notice any of these changes or can not change his/her pledge, they think they get everything just to see they are missing additional content. Sure they can up there pledge, but they can not back out and have to pay the price (additional 70$, around 60% more). In addition everything is kickstarter exclusive. So there is no "try the current stuff and buy the missing sagas later". Last but not least, if there is no retail, there should never be a MSRP. It is just a number they give you, to anker the price evaluation. At least in Germany it is illegal to put a rabatt on a non existing price.
@@GambitsEnd Yeah and I mentioned it at the end. You can upgrade, but you can not cancel. If you want everything you have to pay 70% more than expected, even though they mention in the backing info you get everything. This is not accpetable. These extras should have been added in the first week, so everyone sees what they get and then there is also enough time to change stuff, if people are happy. Now they just posted some (in my opinion) bad messages and nothing happend...
Yeah, I really wanted to back this game, and I've dabbled by re-adding my pledge at the $5 level. I *really* want this game. It looks fantastic. But I know I've got plenty of other games, and for all the reasons you've outlined, I feel like AEG have acted in bad faith during this campaign. Communication is key, and it really feels like they misled backers. I'm 99% sure I'll be cancelling before close. AEG might pull out something amazing right before the end, but in all likelihood it's going to be another tile, some seadogs and a couple of advancement cards. Nothing like what is needed to restore trust. Given AEG have a track record of doing second printings of games, I'll keep my eye out for that next year and back when/if it comes up. While I'm mildly concerned that they won't do that and I'll miss out entirely, it that happens... oh well, I've missed out on playing a boardgame. I'm not going to let FOMO rule my decision making over my principles of not supporting bad behavior from publishers.
I appreciate the video and the reasoned considerations. If you're not already sick of talking about this by now, I'd be interested to hear why you don't think the Gameplay All-In is a good value, since it seems to be exactly what everyone was asking for - all content, no frills. Depending on how you look at it, it's $30 per expansion with the Sea Dogs for free. That seems fairly reasonable to me as a price point given the price of the base game. My problem from the get-go was that the base game itself seems extremely expensive for what it is and I'm less and less willing to pay for expansions for a game I haven't played. On top of that, we have almost no information about the quality of the writing or what the encounters will be like. I'm really not sure where to go from here. If I want a pirate game, I can just buy Jamaica on the secondary market for $20 + shipping and have it now. I'm keen to try the card-crafting system, but I'm also not the biggest fan of deckbuilders as a genre. Will this game change that? I don't know...
Because they took a $45 msrp expansion, added it for $30, but then removed the two extras...basically they did the equivalent of giving you $5 off, on a campaign that was already a very debatable value to begin with.
Thanks for this. I was actually thinking about getting the gameplay bundle, but just now realized that if I want the sleeves(which I definitely do) it is a worse deal then legendary + addon. And this was not an option to begin with. Sad to cancel, but you are right about the things you said. And my bank account likes it. XD
don't think many say this, but part of reason why your videos are so good, because is the way you carry yourself, your words are cleverly chosen, you are a great word-smith
I don't understand how they can possibly consider charging full msrp on the kickstarter expansion. Considering msrp is the estimated price a shop should charge to make up for thier early investments shipping storage,... Surely either msrp should be higher or they are over pricing it. After including shipping they are basically saying if you buy this now and we go to retail later it will be cheaper in retail (even before any retail discounts)
Great video! As soon as I saw the all-in update from AEG, I instantly thought of you and wondered about your opinion. And right away you have a video on the latest kickstarter drama! I dropped my pledge as well for these reasons: 1) Price is high and value is not there. Aftermarket prices are unlikely to be higher unless the game is a smash hit. 2) AEG is likely to have a second Dead Reckoning kickstarter (see their history) with more expansion content. By that point there will be reviews to know if the game is actually any good and can support its high price, and whether the sagas really add that much. There are plenty of games to play in the meantime. 3) AEG has admitted that production costs for Edge of Darkness were underestimated. Perhaps for the second kickstarter AEG will have found a way to lower the production cost or have better pledge levels that provide the content I want without locking me into content I don't want or paying full MSRP to add on extra content. 4) Avoid taxes by buying aftermarket if the game is good. I live in a state where AEG would charge an additional 8% tax. Even if the game sells for higher than its pledge price in the aftermarket (unlikely), I'd only lose out if the aftermarket price increase is greater than the tax I'd pay (assuming shipping costs for the kickstarter and aftermarket are about the same).
Was going to go in based on Reco now I am going out based on it :-) I think the thing that stung the most for me is their justification with MSRP, if you have no plans for retail how is there a Manufacturer Suggested Recommended Price?
I did not back the game, I find the game would not hit the table with my current groups. I like the concepts but I will pick it up in the secondary market as I know a few people that always back 2 copies one for themselves and one for resale. The gameplay looks interesting but campaign games or legacy games hardly get played. I think I rather get Libertalia as my groups would appreciated more. Over the years I learnt to avoid giving in to FOMO but I think DR will be like Edge of Darkness hard to get in the second hand market.
Went with Tiny Epic Pirates myself. The only Card Crafting (tm) game I have is Mystic Vale, and that taught me that the Card Crafting (tm) mechanism is so fiddly when it comes to later teardown that I only ever play that in app/Steam form.
I like Claire's card crafting mechanic, but so far haven't acquired a physical game of his. I do own the entire library of the Mystic Vale app, and do really like playing that. It would be great if Massive Darkness and Dead Reckoning were made in to apps.
I heard about this game awhile ago and jumped in the first day. Each day I was disappointed by the daily reveals. I realized that this campaign is pretty much a preorder. You can tell when companies are willing to change things or do something differently because someone brought up a good idea. This was not happening. They wore down my perceived enjoyment of the game and I cancelled after the Saga 2 add on. I really don’t like that there’s no pictures or anything on each of the Sagas. Anyway there’s a new game launching next week or next month you know?
What good is using MSRP as a standard for Value in a campaign for a product that you claim is never going to retail? If it never goes to retail MSRP means nothing.
It's a frame of reference. I understand why they would use it, I also understand why people wouldn't trust it. Which is why I focused far more on the inconsistency in which they used it.
Unfortunately looking at KickTraq for this campaign they are still financially trending upwards even with (and most likely as a result of) these last minute shenanigans. Like most companies they won't change their ways now or in future campaigns until it hits them in the wallet.
Good games should go up at the end because a large portion of people are last minute people ... at the same time, the issues is opportunity losses, or relative losses. If the normal game gains say 20% of the overall in the last 24 hours, and this one only gains about 10% of their overall ... that should be looked at as a loss/mistake/room for improvement.
@@JonathanNation yeah, thats a really good point. I actually had the reminder set for a last minute back here but I don't agree with their practices and how they managed expectations so I'm going to vote with my wallet here and not back it.
Regarding retail, their FAQ page mentions that certain companies will have access to their company store which will allow Dead Reckoning to be purchased for retail purposes. I wouldn't expect this game to see shelves at national retail chains, but it's very possible you may see board game focused online retailers pick it up. Barring that, there's always the secondary market of course, which is what I'll be waiting for since it'll be far more cost effective to trade better valued and sought after titles for what is basically a lower value, niche title like Dead Reckoning.
Totally orthogonal to the topic of this video, but what are your thoughts on the news from Mythic that they will be sending Reichbusters backers a nice little updating package to correct some of the issues with the game?
Man, you read my mind with these video...I think that even the new pledge don't fix things. If I could take base game and custom sleeves and sea dogs as an add-on I would be happy, but I can't. I'm not interested in the sagas anymore. At first I was, I was curious, as an experiment, but man, go to 139€ + shipping for the game + sea dogs + sagas...I don't think those sagas worth that amount of money. First time in these years I got really dissapointed with a Kickstarter borad game, had to happen sometime. I can understand now how people lose trust in a publisher after a kickstarter campaign.
@@BoardGameCo Lucky you, here in Spain I'm not sure I could find it in the secondary market. At this point, I'll probably surrender to Fomo and get the basic pledge at least :/
the space base saga expansion is quite poorly designed. It's basically : when random gameplay event happens, grab one of the cards with the new mechanics. When all the cards are taken, proceed to the next step. The cards are a bit of a mess, and all over the place adding a bunch of one off mechanics to the gameplay that increase teaching time 2x. Which is good or bad depending on your view. 90% of it didn't feel epic or like a story however.
Huh, interesting. Thanks for laying this all out in a video. I’m sorry to hear you’re dropping your pledge, even after you got a chance to play it and said you loved it. I wish you luck on the after-market. As for me, I never expected to get Saga 2 during this campaign. Based on the frequency that I get other games to the table, I imagine the base game plus the sea dogs plus Saga 1 will last me QUITE a while (perhaps until they do a campaign for Saga 3). The legendary captain’s pledge is a good fit for what I’m looking for. (Of course it also helps that we don’t really know anything about the saga contents, so I don’t have any FOMO for Saga 2) I wasn’t bothered as much by the expectations and the daily discoveries, and even if I were, those seem like very short-term concerns for something that will ultimately take a long time to arrive at my doorstep and then get many hours of play over the course of years. Anyways, as always, thanks for the video!
Anytime :) And I agree with your general point, ultimately there will be a lot of people that don't mind. 720k worth of people so far. At the same time I think had they presented this better, it could have been a 1million campaign.
They gave people what they were asking for in a gameplay pledge, and suddenly they are back up in backers, and now going to break $1M. I think you nailed all the points. Just a shame after you put out the video, they go and change things. There is still a Legendary unlock tomorrow, so we'll see what that is. I'm contemplating going back in on the gameplay bundle, but am waiting until the last day to see everything unlocked and give it a bit more thought. Not impressed with AEG and game-playing the Kickstarter.
I also like (NOT!) the email i received after having upped my pledge from legendary to the gameplay one: "We are very hopeful that you'll upgrade your pledge to the All-In Reward ($179) so you can receive a copy of Dead Reckoning and both Expansions, the Sea Dogs, the Ghost Ship, the Custom Sleeves, the Metal Coins and the Upgraded Cargo when it is delivered to backers next year. You can adjust your pledge on Kickstarter until 5pm (Pacific) on Friday".
Agreed. On the one hand I 100% understand and appreciate marketing on the other hand it continues the perception of pushing people towards that pledge and that pledge only.
Alex, Alex, Alex yes I saw the gameplay pledge and thought about it and said nope it isn't really what I want, it's not quite enough but the legendary pledge was weighing on my mind, your saying if you into a game store and saw the pricetag would you pay it, that answer is a solid no. Then the changes/additional pledge levels were underwhelming so today I too canceled my pledge. I will return to KS and see what they do tonight to possibly once again alter the campaign. Think you for your balanced view of this campaign also thank you for your time. Perhaps I need to look for Edge Of Darkness after market offers. Did the game you play include the legendary level with seadogs etc. or was it the base game
I couldn't agree more with this. I dropped my pledge, too, because I just do not feel like I'm getting a reasonable value for my money. I also feel this way about the most recent update. I feel like they keep missing what people are asking for. Granted we wanted a gameplay all-in pledge, but then they dropped some of the "stretch goal" unlocks. It just feels, to me at least, like a bait a switch: "You want the gameplay all in? Fine, but we'll take away those stretch goals you'd get otherwise!". While I admit, the ghost ship isn't super important, but for me at least, it was apart of the "discovery journey" which is a part of the campaign experience---this ties in to your point about expectations. It's just like they are all over the place. I'm now left with a bad view of AEG, to be honest. I'm just not going to support a project like that, even if I do want the game! As always, your content is fantastic. I think you've easily become my favourite board game RU-vid content.
I voted ..and closed my wallet permanently to AEG KS, as I have done with Cmon. The game play value just was not there, I cannot support campaigns that are at MSRP without any real reason to pay now, except that it won't be in retail.
Would honestly love to see you do a review for To Many Bones because it comes back in stock in August and I think it would be cool to get your opinions on that game :)
I wonder if the "daily discovery" was included because daily unlocks seems to be a current trend. As you mentioned, could be a good lesson for other creators.
I think I would disagree with your assessment that the move from base pledge to legendary is a "no brainer" because of the $40 price point. $40 is like the cost of another game. I think there is more than enough content in the base game. Considering this game will most likely take at least 2 hours per pay, I don't see me personally getting it to the table enough to justify the extra $40 for a Saga expansion that I will most likely never scratch the surface of. I do wish they had an add-on option for the Sea Dogs, however. That seems like content you could introduce from the beginning. But it's not worth the extra $40. And personally, I don't care about all the other stuff included in the legendary. I also don't think you can call the extra $40 a "deal" by looking at the MSRP. As you mentioned in your video, the MSRP is really just a made up number, especially since they've stated that it most likely won't even be offered at retail. It's like total OJ Simpson mentality "We're not going to offer this at retail, but if we DID, this is what it would cost". Anywho, I'm currently at the point of either backing at the base level or not at all. Thanks for posting your thoughts.
Agree on MSRP...I reference that primarily to show that their own MSRP and deals vs deals are inconsistent. As far as the extra $40...I think it's a no brainer but I respect that it will depend on who you are. I think the sea dogs are going to be highly sought after.
@@BoardGameCo So of course, I ended up backing at the Legendary level :-) Shows what I know! I am happy to hear that they decided to include a second battle board with the Ghost Ship (considering I was initially planning to not even unpack/unpunch it).
Yeah, i don't see the issue when compared to other games. FOr some reason, and maybe i missed it, but I feel like you're not understanding the production cost of printing the very unique, special plastic card. As I've seen with Gloom, this can be done right or wrong. I'd rather it done right. We're also forgetting that this is still art, and the artist has the right to demand what they want for their design. This actually feels like good pricing. You are more than welcome to get saga 2 at 45 dollars which makes it 150. and for 20 dollars u get the other extras. This is good sales pricing.
There's a reason I didn't address the production costs in this video....because I can't comment on them. But let me ask you this....how is it that for an extra $30 from deckhand to legendary, they can give you a full saga, a bunch of deckhands an extra ship etc.....and then for saga 2 you either need to pay $45 or upgrade to all in? That isn't explained by production costs, that's explained my forcing an upsell.
I backed at 109, then dropped to the base game and considering walking the plank (see what I did there?) completely. I felt more justified going all in with Merchants of the Dark Road, I felt it had far more of a production value to me and my group and family. I truly truly loved the gameplay and that is all I saw for DR, so not sure I need all of those extras forced on me at the 109. The paywall with the second saga, even with the game play only pledge, still rubs me wrong. Keep up the great work with the vids, Alex! Good Stuff!
Yep, exactly with you. I feel like the campaign was mismanaged. I won't punish myself by not getting the game, but I'll take the gamble that it will be available cheaper on the second hand market.
