There's a subplot in my homebrew setting that the reason the Raven Queen's mythos changed between 4E and 5E is that she found out about the Wall of the Faithless and was so offended by that affront to the natural order that she began spreading new myths about herself to gain more Elvish worshipers and eventually kill Kelemvor to take his seat and destroy the Wall.
well as much as i hate the wall (which was retconed out of existence) she a hypocrite who hates people who extend their life while being immortal herself so i cant approve of her
@@colorpg152 I mean that's not exactly true at least in the 4E version. She was a mortal who died of a plague and then became a god while already in the afterlife.
@@andyenglish4303 but she is still a immortal and still kiling good aligned people for extending their lives while also having a unlimited lifespam, she is a hypocrite and evil for a reason she has no right to talk down even to that traitor of humanity
Which sucks cause papa Kel didn't want the wall either, but he got in trouble with the other gods when he started endearing himself to mortals like not sticking atheists in a cubby. So she's probably going to run into the same problem.
I’ll be editing this as I go through the video - most of the info I’ll be providing come from folks like AJ Pickett, an extremely learned keeper of D&D lore. Firstly, you’re _almost_ right about the soul remaining in the body shortly after death. It’s actually lingering in the border ethereal for the amount of time that Revivify is allowed to work in. So, apart from the step of stuffing the soul back in from close by, yeah pretty much what you described. It heads into the deep ethereal after that - in the Forgotten Realms, it passes into the fugue plane afterwards, but generally speaking it enters a color curtain into the Astral. The memories aren’t actually leeched gradually, but condense as memory orbs rather quickly. These do dissolve over time, but slowly. If resurrected after this point, you have to actually pull them from their afterlife, through that orb, and then back through the ethereal and into the body again. No wonder it’s so difficult. Also, the Wall of the Faithless is actually harder to end up in than you’d think. Just devoting yourself to something as part of your life can be enough to count as devotion to a deity of that concept. Even a plea for intervention at one point of crisis in your life can count if you haven’t subsequently done something to piss off that god. Most gods aren’t picky with what souls they claim, even if they were never explicitly worshipped by name by that person.
It’s interesting, this idea makes the idea of having one’s soul consumed in a lich’s phylactery possibly preferable to some. Your soul is destroyed, and whatever that means and the implications is vague, but as you said, you also aren’t you when you go to afterlives. So, I can almost imagine a lich who believes he’s sparing hundred of innocent souls from being erased, made into blank slates for torture or pleasure.
In my opinion a good idea would be a soul keeps its memories but can’t access them, you still have information but can’t remember how you know it. But with hard work or if your god allows it you can get your memories back.
I remember years ago, when in college, my chemistry professor said "...like dissolves like" as a part of our fats, oils and lipids lesson. In a way, the way I see the soul and the afterlife is similar: birds of a feather flock together, the nature of the soul would be polarized to gravitate to a state which it is most similar; it's not necessarily belief, or a god, that is the only factor which determines where one winds up in the afterlife, but also what state the soul is, what is it consisted of by inherent nature of the individual and accumulation of positive or negative choices (intent being the meta-variable).
Pretty sure I've read that the real reason behind the "petitioners lose their memories" premise was a purely metagaming one: that if it's accumulation of experience points that let D&D characters gain in power, then if they *didn't* lose their memories (~experience) after death, the afterlife would be stuffed to the gills with high-level adventurers. Who, being adventurers, would immediately start either disrupting the nice myth-inspired hierarchies and underworlds Gygax and his buddies wanted to emulate, or else questing for ways to come back to life because no hypercompetitive wargamer wants to be told that their PC might, y'know, retire in contentment to enjoy Heaven or whatever. So ultimately, every soul in D&D is predestined by default to lose their former identities, abandoning whatever causes or loyalties or loved ones they'd formerly been willing to die for, and to dissolve anonymously into the uncaring planar fabric of the cosmos, simply because the founders of the game didn't trust their players not to be a bunch of game-breaking, verisimilitude-destroying assholes. 🙄
This was actually super useful to me as a newish DM! I love things that can help in my worldbuilding, and this really does, especially since I want an arc of my campaign to be in the afterlife!
This vid is incredible, your personal interpretation on how the afterlife work and interacts with magic in the canon worlds is very well put together! you deserve WAY more subs
A few thoughts: In On Hallowed Ground, it does state that when a petitioner reaches a higher state and becomes one with the landscape of their plane (or deity), they still maintain consciousness, so even then, they don't entirely lose themselves. And in the Realms, there are many instances of souls maintaining their memories (though certain emotions, such as a desire for revenge, don't matter as much). I hate the whole loss of memory thing, so that is definitely one incentivev to worship a deity. Interestingly, if you factor in reincarnation, there are instances in which the reincarnated soul remembers glimpses of its past life(s). This suggests that somewhere in the soul's "subconscious", the memories remain. Also, being "indebted" to a god isn't necessarily a bad thing (depending on the deity). It's not like slave labor for the rest of existence lol. Speaking of reincarnation, about the elves: if you got this from MToF, that is different from previous elven lore. Elves have long believed in reincarnation, but it wasn't always a direct thing. Arvandor/Arborea was a final reward, not a temporary stay that MToF presents. In Forgotten Realms, most Faerunians are polytheistic by nature (excluding clerics and such), though most end up paying homage to one deity slightly above the others. A petitioner is taken in by the deity that their morals and ethics are best aligned with (which is likely the deity they ended up paying homage to the most). Only those who never acknowledge any of the gods (true atheism in the Realms is rare) end up on the Wall. Sorry for the long post. The afterlife is something I think about a lot in D&D, and I have made somewhat of a study of it, though mostly in the Realms setting.
Thanks for the detailed reply! While yes, on Hallowed Ground does state that a petitioner maintains their consciousness, I see that as the soul itself remaining "conscious" or "active" rather than the same identity being conscious but just in "sleep mode". From a philosophical standpoint, a petitioner is a functionally different being to the material creature, regardless of if the book wants to make the claim that they're not. If someone committed crimes, fled a country but in the process fell off a cliff and lost their memories, and are then found by authorities a decade later living a totally benign life, are they still reprehensible for their crimes? If you believe they are then yes perhaps you can argue that the petitioners is functionally the same creature, but I do not. Identity is a non-physical concept. When you are dealing with these kinds of philosophical ideas, its less what the books strictly say, and what they can convince you of. I didn't mention the polytheism of the FR partially because so few tables I play at actually care about it, and partially because I may do a video in the future discussing the structure of pantheons and the role of the gods in D&D. But you're right, those that are classified as the Faithless are few and far between (but still enough to populate the wall)
@@TheDungeonInn I don't know if it would necessarily be in "sleep mode", either. For example, in the cases in which the petitioner merges with a god (rather than a plane), they become one of the "voices" in the god's head, and maintain their personality. Those who merge with the plane go through a similar process. To me, this suggests that the soul is still very much active and "awake". It could even be an extra planar form of Animism or a "nature spirit", for lack of a better way of putting it. Of course, you could apply the idea of self-lessness here, but even that gets tricky, as it doesn't necessarily mean "no-self", at least not in the sense of "loss of self". It's more about obtaining a higher sense of self (in the case of D&D, being one with your god or plane) and the interconnectedness of all things. Your self--and everyone else's selves--help make the planes and the gods, further contributing to that idea of interconnectedness, but I don't see it as a no-self. But I am going more by what the book says, as i see it as providing information on how the afterlife in D&D works (though I enjoy philosophy). So we're probably approaching what is given to us a bit differently. I brought up the polytheism because I considered it an important part of the Faerunian afterlife process, so I thought I would mention it. I think the Wall has been built slowly over time, as it is not a fate for most.
I never thought much of the afterlife in D&D until I played BG3 and experienced Karlach's story. Depending on you she can die and come back, or die and not want to come back, or die and not be able to come back and all of this confirmed by the god of death itself so your character has no excuse to not believe in an afterlife anymore
I want to preface this with the fact that I just started playing dnd (2nd session was yesterday). I’ve been deep diving into lore and this is by far one of the best channels I found. Insta-subscribe after that vid
Thank you so much! there was barely any videos on what ACTUALLY happens when a character dies. All the videos just say "yeah its sad, make sure the player has their moment and try to revive them" NOT A SINGLE VIDEO ACTUALLY EXPLAINED THE LORE SIDE OF THINGS! Thank you, you have gained a new sub
This was super helpful, thanks! I have a character in my game who's lost all fear of death, because he wants to challenge Kelemvor as a level 3 paladin. Should be an interesting ride!
Edit: You can ignore this, I made this comment as I was watching, and didn't wait until the end when you actually mentioned the Fugue Plane lol. I really like your explanation, and it's really interesting take. For me personally, I follow with that FR Wiki has, where mortal souls go to the Fugue Plane to the City of Judgement. It's where Kelemvor resides and judges those that need it. Souls can wait there for a tenday (lining up with 'Raise Dead') for a divine servant from their god to get them. While they waited, they could strike deals and become devils themselves. The False and Faithless also go to the City of Judgement, and receive their punishments if needed, or they get sent to the Wall of the Faithless. Earned a sub from me though, keep up the great work!
I'm currently running a group of players through different afterlives. Do you'd even know how useful this video is for me. he concept of the campaign is that each player selects an old chatacter who died in a previous game, and these characters explore dofferent afterlives together. They started in a haunted house, and from there explored the Egyptian afterlife, Dog Heaven, the Hindu realm of penance, and Big Rock Candy Mountain where hobos go when they die. They just recently entered Arborea.
I don't put down comments a lot. But for a very small channel, this is a very high-quality video! You've earned my sub, keep going bro, I hope you reach a much wider audience! (I'm also your 999th sub!)
I would posit that losing one's memories and sense of self would actually be a more preferable way to enter the lower planes than making a deal to ensure you retain your identity. The whole point of torturing the soul in the first place is to eradicate their former personality and turn them into a creature that is more suitable for the plane which they have been consigned to. By allowing your former identity to be stripped away from you, you can theoretically fast track this process and not have to suffer as much before transforming into a proper fiend.
I have been searching for exactly these kinds of videos for so long! Just everything about this is well done. It's well shot, well edited, well scripted, and incredibly engaging! I feel like I learned so much in such a short period of time. And I kept checking to see if I was reading your subscriber number wrong because I can't believe you don't have thousands more. Hopefully you've only paused making videos and not stopped all together.
Awesome video! It makes me really appreciate forgotten realm's outerplanes but my favorite is still our precious snowflake eberron's outlook on the afterlife.
This is EXACTLY what I needed for my character (she was recently reincarnated and I think it would be good to know what she would have experienced while dead) That does make me think, what is your take on the "Speak with Dead" spell with this knowledge? Perhaps it's pulling the memories alone are pulled back to the body, but the soul remains in the afterlife, unaware of what's even happening? Maybe the time needed between castings is time for the magic thay previously pulled them together to disperse again? It raised many questions, and it's fun to think through the implications - even if they're not good ones lol
I'll have to finish it later. But since you showed a forgotten realms book I thought I might bring up Kelemvor and the feuge plane and his city if the dead. Also since 4e souls travel through the shadowfell on their way to said plane.
The problem I have with your point is that you suggest is that we should let someone off-hook for a crime simply because they can't remember committing which I don't think would hold up in court.
I quite like FR's waiting room of the fugue plane, where devils and demons can make offers to a soul while they're awaiting judgment. My understanding of the wall of the faithless, though, was that it was reserved for atheists that actively rebuked the gods. Anyone that didn't dedicate themselves to one particular god would just be judged based on their actions in life (alignment), and sent off to the appropriate outer plane. After all, if anyone that doesn't get picked up from the fugue plane by an emissary of the outer planes ends up in the wall, what's the point of having a judge there in the first place?
Well this was great, just what I needed. Recently in my campaing got a character death and another player is interested in death and souls. Im leaving with a lot of ideas! Thanks
I think a persons soul doesn't loose its identity until there is no one left alive who remembers who they were in life. Someone held in reverence or infamy by the populace will retain their identity far longer than some random person who has done nothing to be remembered by. As long as they're remembered they will exist as themselves. But once no one remembers them they will reform and become something else with a new identity and memory.
interesting video, but in the forgotten realms setting there is the city of judgement, where souls wait to be claimed by there Gods or "join" the faithless.
Personally I prefer that there is no cosmic justice that punish evil and rewards good because otherwise, and rather rather ironically, no real morality could exist. If you have to be threatened with eternal torture and be promised eternal paradise to be a good person then you are not a good person. Being good should be it’s own reward. Likewise I don’t think it’s right to torture someone for eternity for a finite time of evil no matter how horrible. Plus eternal life isn’t really something I am comfortable with either since it would quickly erase all meaning and value that life has. That being said I do love the idea of different planes of existence that are shaped by those who have lived and died and that it is their life experiences and choices that form and shape these realms.
Thanks, this video helped me a lot with my newest campaign setting! I was wondering why the souls don't just move themselves to the nearest silver color pool and return to the material plane.
(Questions after this paragraph.) I've been fascinated by the lore of the afterlife in Forgotten Realms for a long time and this is this most concise video I've found on the subject, because there's so much that seems to conflict or change on the subject. I eventually want to make a priest of Kelemvor that explores these very subjects. I have one major thing I'm confused about that I'd like to ask you on, and that's the nature of the Wall of the Faithless itself. I've never played Neverwinter Nights 2, but apparently there's a lot there in one of the official campaigns. NOTE: The following may be incorrect, it's just what I've read. From what snippets I've been able to piece together, this is what I've learned so far. The Wall of the Faithless is: 1. Built by Myrkul. 2. According to Kelemvor is necessary to the makeup of the universe. (Unsure why, especially since it didn't exist at one point.) So much so that in Neverwinter Nights 2, breaking the wall and freeing the souls inside is considered an _evil act_ by the game. Why not just reincarnate those beings, or attempt to teach them faith in the afterlife itself? (After all, the proof is now staring them in the face.) Is it because gods need to forcefully sap power from souls if they aren't willing to worship them in order to keep the universe working? Do both good and evil deities benefit from this? And wouldn't that kind of suffering for personal benefit go against the very nature of some good deities, essentially voiding their very existence conceptually? Do you have any explanations or thoughts?
Awesome video. Would you be willing to elaborate what happen to a soul of a person that lives in the 3E version of Ravenloft? As I know, the Domains of Dread only touch the Border Ethereal. Do the souls get trapped in the Border Ethereal forever, or at least until they are called to reincarnate by the Dark Powers that rule Ravenloft?
I always wondered why there weren't multiple versions of heaven for each good alignment and maybe some form of limbo for neutral characters although sigle from planescape is kinda like that
Also what happens if you "WISH" or "Ressurrect" a person who is long dead and had been re-incarnated during that time? What happens then? Do they remain in their new body and get their memories back, or die and be resurrected onto the person they once had been new body and all, or does the spell fail?
In my own homebrew world, I don't really have answers as to what happens when someone dies. I like the idea that this is a secret that nobody knows, including me. However, I do know what different cultures believe happens; like humans, for instance, believe that good souls go to the divine realm, and can return to the mortal realm as birds. Orcs believe that they serve their god in battle after death, but that their soul can only pass on if they are buried in the land they were born in.
I know this video is a year old at this point, but i do have one question: What happens when a soul encounters an Astral Storm? Theoretically, it should also get swept away, which may result in a LG Paladin ending up in the abyss, and a chaotic evil soul might end up in Mt. Celestia. Furthermore, a dead villain/PC might just have a 0,0001% chance to be swept back into the material plane before they could lose their memories. Actually, what would happen if a freshly created petitioner were o be swept away back into the material realm? Would they become a ghost? Or maybe retain their game statistics with a bunch of bonus perks from being immortal, kind of like an Astral Projection but without the silver cord?
Wait... you calculate, upon careful study of the D&D lore, that it's strategically sound for a character to sell their soul to a devil? Does that mean that real world churches paranoid about what D&D teaches its players were kind of correct? lol
Wow, everything less than lawful neutral sucks lololol Wait...so souls that go to the ultimate afterlife in Elysium are actually absorbed by that plane?
Hmm what about the wall of the faithless? Creatures and animals have no understanding of gods and worship and yet you say the have their own place in the afterlife, yet after playing NWN2 Mask of the Betrayer all creatures that live if they are atheist by choice or otherwise end up being dissolved in the wall!
