Debating @Rarran | Yu-Gi-Oh! vs Hearthstone 

Mbt made it impossible to even find who he was talking about. I finally found it after like the third chain.

@@bej4987chain link 4 Solemn Judgement

He really rocks

​@@bej4987mate, the video was in the description

​@@bej4987after the 3rd chain you could have activated chain strike

Thank you someone else thought of this holy shit

Best idea ever .

I haven't watched the video yet, I just wanted to chime in that low power formats are the only way for me to truly enjoy Yu-Gi-Oh. Some kind of Progression series is one of them, and probably one of the more common ones in this day and age, but there are more things you can cook up. Some kind of Auction Series too, though that is definitely much more work to organise (and the auctioneer can't really participate himself).

GIVE THIS MAN ALL UR LIKES, We need to make this happen

That's called solo mode

Enough said

amen im printing and framing this comment

Konami hates the game and they definitely don't play it.

To be fair hating something without knowing much about it is just cringe behavior

Based

​@@potatoexe5410sorry that we don't have 700÷ hours to understand the ins and outs of the game

lmao 🗿

😅 content wheel gonna spin

INDEED 😂😂😂

Next time he is going to play master duel again and get upset again and Farfa will debate him again

@@lixiang4051 nah I see a farfa playing coach series coming up, it would add info to the "why yugioh is bad for new players" thing he's been doing recently

"Now I become funny, destroyer of all memes"

My Le memes, are Le Funny?

yugioh players when they encounter a single funny joke: lets keep beating this dead horse until everyone is sick of it

Nah, he feels like the Joker

@@Always.Smarterhonestly yeah, a yugituber started the “it’s morbin time” meme and somehow the same mentality stretched across the internet with that one

Capcom also introduced modern controls for those who suck at inputs. Congratulations you now have one button special moves and two button supers. Welcome to The FGC

Although both communities share an issue with onboarding new players, I don't know if your assessment is an accurate representation of why the FGC community is growing. Fighting Games have, for a very long time, failed to have proper tutorials that dove into the nuances of the genre such as frame data, frame traps, set ups, Meaty's, Shimmies, whiff punishes etc... However, there have been games with incredible tutorials, such as Skullgirls, Killer Instinct, Thems Fightin Herds, ggxrd, etc... Good tutorials have not historically, at least in my opinion, been the thing that has retained new players on their own. In the FGC, we have seen the simplification of inputs over time. From as far back as MvC1 with Simple Mode and its subsequent entries in the series, to CvS2 EO and more, to the more "recent" introduction of Auto Combos, to the limitation of motions inputs removing DP motions and the outright removal of motion inputs in certain instances. SF6 went the extra mile and successfully incorporated a single player mode that familiarizes the player with the controls (of which includes Modern Controls) without it feeling like homework and added customization incentives for their avatar to continue playing in an open world type setting that they can then show off in the Battle Hub. World Tour, in my opinion, went a long way for player retention as a tutorial in disguise, so I agree with you in that regard, however it crucially also needed the addition of Modern Controls. Whether we like it or not, physical execution is a barrier for new players. I'm sure there's a Yugioh parallel for that somewhere that I can't think of right now. Fighting games and Yugioh have a lot of overlap in my opinion, they are both incredibly complex past the surface level however, for example, a new player just doesn't get to play the game when they play against established players. A newcomer sees Ryu and thinks back to a childhood moment of Ryu vs Ken and Hadoukens and Shoryuken and Tatsumaki Senpukyaku sound bites and they'll want to try it out. Or they'll see Goku and Vegeta in DBFZ and want to play with them. Not unlike a person seeing Blue Eyes or the Dark Magician and wanting to try out the game. They'll hop online without any execution and then they'll get put in block strings that lead to frame traps and they'll mash only to fall right into the trap and get counter hit, god forbid they get put in the corner or try to jump in on the established player or... not even know how to deal with projectiles. The new player just never got to play. They'll go online and vent about how sweaty people are and how fighting games suck and then never play that game again. With the skill floor being raised through the help of Auto Combos, Simple Inputs and in game mechanics however, a new player gets to interact. "Everyone can be Daigo". Sure they'll still get bodied by established players but they'll feel like they're doing cool shit by just mashing buttons and fights with people around their skill level will be flashier than without any of the mentioned mechanics. Hell, sometimes the simplified controller layout can actually out perform classic controls, as we're seeing more and more new players making higher ranks in SF6 with Modern Controls (and that's not even exploring how pros are using them). A good tutorial, especially one that is disguised so it doesn't feel like homework, such as the World Tour in SF6, combined with the decade+ culmination of input simplification goes a long way for accessibility. There's a reason every new fighting game continues to incorporate features that "simplify" the genre further and the numbers don't lie, there are still failures, like DNF Duel and GBVS but in the macro scale, it's working whether the community likes it or not. There is still a deep well of nuance to the genre, but the skill floor is being raised over time. All that to say, I'm not too sure a good tutorial will be the ticket for Yugioh. Like fighting games, it is incredibly complex with tons of legacy knowledge checks. An incredible tutorial will help, sure, but just like Fighting Games, it'll need to be in conjunction with ways to make the game more accessible to newcomers. Master Duel has shown that being a generous F2P game isn't enough to retain a significant portion of newcomers.

For me I had to learn fighting games from guilty gear strive which I will say has a really good tutorial on everything and teaches you pretty well along with some complicated stuff if you want to learn but don't need at the beginning.

Yugioh is the super smash bros melee of card games.

I feel like Master Duel was supposed to be the "Street Fighter 6" of Yugioh, like Master Duel was Konami's attempt to help introduce new players to Yugioh and now they are scrambling to find a new solution after Master Duel wasn't as effective as they thought it was going to be.

But one piece is a trading card game

⁠he meant that ygo/one piece fans will say about their respective game/show. “It gets good after a while u just gotta keep going”

​@@pitsa9838except that's not true, onepiece starts good, but it gets better and better with time, it also starts super simple and welf conteined but get progressively deeper more complex and open as you follow it. Yugioh on the other hand demands you know all mechanics and interactions and syntax loop holes for you to play it even remotely decently. The curve is the exact opposite, the only thing you could say they have in common is the time investment.

that is ooo true. I reallonly play the game now because I have kept up for decades on the side and when masterduel came out, it wasnt that big of a plunge to get myself fully familiar again.

I always think that yugioh is the dota 2 of card game, compare it to other game with the same genre theyre too different, too complex for beginner to play.

archetypal mechanic bypass the game mechanic like tri, or just straight playing different game like vaylantz.

I'd be so much easier if they had rush duels text. Fuck this game really needs that.

100% this. A tutorial of mechanics & systems gets you 80-90% of the way to playing something like pokemon or mtg, while that last 10-20% can be picked up in-game by seeing how your opponent's board gets built, sussing out their strategy, and reacting accordingly. And you have time to do this in games like pokemon & mtg because there is a finite amount of actions that can be taken and cards are much more easily digestible in what they do. Yugioh is the complete reverse; Mechanics & systems knowledge only gets you that first 10-20%, and the overwhelming majority of the complexity is trying to determine on-sight what this college essay of text is trying to do, but by the time you do that it has turned into 7 other cards that all have their own essay of text, and by the time you finish your opponent has this unkillable board and you realize the only way you could have stopped them was not to stop the card that you took the time to read, but to stop the card they played 3 cards before that.

Big combos? Yes High speed duels? Not really when you are stuck in a solitaire game.

yeah, and? most competitive games require a high level of knowledge to be good at them Any game that doesnt is just a mindless clicker, why do you need a card game to be a clicker? there are lots of trash mobile games you can go play instead Its not a problem, its a good thing, weeds out 2heads. Just so you know, i left yugioh about the time when pendulums were released, and came back with the release of master duel. So this is coming from someone who had to learn 10 years of meta in one go.

Idk why they don't have a permanent tryout mode where they just put basic decks for new players to try against each other.

​@@GaussianEntity90% of the active player base fucking hate the first duel trial, don't ever suggest that ever again.

@@hopkinsstefan454 I didn't say to use the first one lmao. I said to let new players play decks similar to them. Honestly it's way better than just getting blown out by tier 1 stuff straight out of the tutorial.

Maybe they can add beginner pvp mode for seven days only... where you can play pvp with the same beginner who still new at the game

I don't see the point in waiting for Konami to take action when the playerbase is probably far more equipped at undertaking this sort of thing. If players show more interest, start purchasing products in that direction, and start putting in the work to make more formats available to players, then Konami will probably not notice it.

Glad someone saw it like this. Like the difference between losing to a much better player and deck between the mtg, yugioh and hearthstone is so little. In yugioh if your opponent sets up a board you can't break you've lost, why play just pick up your cards. In mtg if your opponent has just the better deck you play the illusion of cards. None of your cards really matter you don't have a clean out to your opponents game plan. Even in hearthstone. The couple of turns you play doesn't really matter if your opponent has control of the board or a combo you can't interact with. The difference is that when u lose to a deck in yugioh it looks really good like you stood no chance, in mtg and hearthstone you still stood no chance but it's hard to tell.

I had the same thought in story telling terms yugioh goes from the prologue straight to epilogue, while all the other card games have a gradual build up to the grand finale.

@@Xeraxil That's a really weird deterministic way of looking at it. That's more philosophical than it is practical. The truth is, at least in terms of hs bc I've never played mtg, is that at every step of the game, you do stand a chance. It's not 'decided beforehand' and therefore 'giving you an illusion of gameplay.' idk why people keep saying this. I mean you can say that about everything. Like if I got run over by a car today you could say ah, I had the illusion of life, I had no chance against the car that was going to hit me 8 hours from now. Like, okay sure? But what does that have to do with anything?

@@hugomendoza5665 The difference is the feeling of "I stood no chance against this person" that is very obvious in yugioh and not in any other game. The difference in your analogy would be like if you could see that your demise is guaranteed by the car a year before vs you not knowing it, but there is nothing you can do to stop said car. Both end in a sad way yet they are seen as two different things? (Assuming the person able to see the future does not augment their way of life around the car) The truth is that a new person should not be able to win against a veteran player with a better deck in any game. A game that breaks this constantly would be a game that is heavily reliant on luck.

Yeah, most card games have a very steady and clear gamestate that’s tied to the power of cards and the resources they require. Yugioh has very unintuitive phasing. The first turn, power scaling is highest, since you have 5 cards in hand and a full deck and extra. Decks usually exhaust their main line, which they can do at most twice (usually), sometimes once like DL. Then, if the game isn’t decided, secondary engines, grind game, and sweepers duke it out until a player goes for lethal or is exhausted of cards. It’s a really unintuitive way for a card game to play out, especially if every other relevant game uses some variation of a steady growth of power, with different kinds of decks peaking at different points in the game.

Based! 🙌 absolutely

I don't necessarily agree, I was there, and I didn't see chat meme on him so hard. Like yes, there was a few comment, but many times he mistook comments supporting him, as an attack.

​​@@trokolisz3702chat is literally on the screen mate

​@@trokolisz3702that's still kinda understandable. He is good in games which hold your hand tight during your experience thus it kinda sucks to find yourself unable to understand what the game is about. It's copium yes, but I can feel him. Chat might have been supportive but suggesting salad over Maids it's like suggesting a shotgun to someone struggling using a sling.

nah im on the side of rarran and mbt completely, i think his video was warranted and great

call it rarranted

Farfa literally ignored the multiple formats we had with ftk bots. Remember when u had to run a 13 card extra cause that was literally the only way to counter the ftk.

Wild has had bots for years. Rarran might have screwed up the arena explanation but currently the top 5%-10% of wild hearthstone is swarmed with bots.

There should be a duel mode even if it was a solo mode that lets you play different decks thru out yugiohs life span Like choose the 4 most prominent decks of each year and make them into structure decks and you can switch between each one Hell doesnt even need to go that far make it like by eras 4 synchros xyzs fusion etc decks

I know MTG Arena has an event like that

Salamangreat meta lets go

The only worry about this is that you'd have to reeeeally balance them. It's way too easy for one deck to just be better in a pre-constructed format.

It should be a fine-tuned one, not like the very first Duel Trial where we played only one copy of the structure deck. That was not a well-functioned deck at all.

True!

I love this comparison.

except most fighting games don't have fighters that say well I got first hit put down your controller I have won and there is nothing you can do about it, most fighting games have comeback mechanics, most fighting games are easy to understand but hard to master, Yugioh is none of these things it's like getting thrown into masters in a fighting game blindfolded with both your hands broken and people screaming why aren't you wining

​@@michaelkehaYou can literally get bodied as a new player in a fighting game before you get a chance to a land a punch, so the comparison stands and works pretty well. Additionally, there always have been incredibly powerful characters in the FGC, just like there are incredibly powerful decks and individual cards in any TCG. Just like how you can get destroyed for going into ranked in a fighting game before properly learning about the game, you can also get destroyed in Yu-Gi-Oh for not knowing how to deckbuild or how to use your going second cards properly. The only line separating both is that you can also be unlucky and not draw well, but that's expected of what literally a card game where you _randomly_ pull cards from a deck.

@@michaelkeha In a fighting game you ultimately have three distinct things. Your knowledge, Your Skill, and The data of how the game functions. Your understanding of these thing is what makes or break you being able to actually play against those who know how to play. Resource is a non factor for this very same reason. There are broken decks, the same way there are broken characters. But people with actual skill and knowhow do wayyy better with (and sometimes without) those decks/characters than those who dont. This is why just like with a fighting game in reality it takes more than just an hour or two of practice to actually know the game.

...Aren't fighting games notoriously hard for new players to get into literally for this reason? So you're kinda agreeing with Rarran

He also went circle add gazelle prior to that play

Right, and in other games like Souls games or MOBAs you do need coaching. That’s the reality. Yugioh has a healthy player base, if we look at online card games itself.

​@@KevinGonzalez-hs7sosouls definitely doesn't need coaching tho, you can brute force your way and win the game if the said player is completely blind

LMAO

​@@KevinGonzalez-hs7so Yugioh is pretty much at or near peak popularity rn in both paper and online. We are still breaking records for IRL tournaments.

and they all share staple pieces that don' infer anything about their archetype. legends of runeterra, mtg and hearthstone reveal something about the deck you're fighting before a spell resolves.

​@@Hawko1313When YGO was first conceived, the potential difference in decks was not immense enough to trigger that thought. These days the existance of a hint like that would end some matches at turn 0 :v Mainly because forfeiting upon seeing that you're done does become a habit..

people will shoot down this idea by splitting hairs about tier 1 vs tier 3, when its actually a totally reasonable to make wide tiers, e.g. top 50 decks, next best 150 decks, so on. it would just require effort on konami’s part to not break every tier and make it non-competitive, so its not gonna happen

Some of the most fun I've had playing master duel is from allowing my rank to drop so I can climb with worse decks till I get back up to start playing more high power rogue decks

But it was bots killing themselves tho haha

He is normally so chill, which is why I was so surprised when he went off on chat. But I understand the frustration, people are getting triggered for him having an opinion and also misunderstanding what a completely blind at a master duel would be like. And before people say it's master duel not ygo as a whole, do you know how many people are gonna try master duel, hate it, and proceed to think that's how it is? A lot of this is on Konami, but imo the community could be wayyyyy more understanding of new/bad players. There is 100% an air of elitism about a card game based on a children's tv show that really needs to chill.

Rarran did not read one single name of one of his cars during the whole stream and rejected everything chat tried to tell him. On the other side, he said he did not sleep good the last days and it must be really hard trying to expand on your content as he is trying only to get rejected or critiziced so much@@StefanDillandMarcRIP

​@@StefanDillandMarcRIP Tbf; they already kinda mention in in the debate, that that kind of mentality is ridiculously prevelent in fanbases as a whole. Yu-Gi-Oh is probably just worse in this regard simply because of how challanging it is to get into the community. I'd probably liken it most to the Dark Souls community when the series first become popular; the idea that because you've mastered a deliberately challanging game, that anyone that can't keep up with you isn't on your level for whatever reason.

@@StefanDillandMarcRIP As someone from Rarran's community watching this, I was really surprised at how casually Farfa kept insulting Rarran's intelligence when Rarran seemed to be trying so hard to engage in good faith. If Farfa is representative of th community as a whole, then there's a reason the community has a rep for elitism. He just comes off a huge asshole in this whole convo, and I'd be embarrassed if I acted this way on a public platform.

@@StefanDillandMarcRIP this really hits home for me. When master duel came out, i had only played yugioh during the first years of its existance (not seriously tho since i was just a kid), pretty casually around 2012-2014 and about a year of duel links in 2016. I had no idea what deck was good so i half hazardly looked up the top decks (which at the time was tri brigade, and prank kids as a budget option), i tried playing a casual match with someone random on a yugioh discord and i got basically blasted with negativity from my opponent and most of the community for playing meta.

If konami was not so greedy and stupid, new players would be given a Spright deck, with 3 nimble beaver, 2 blue. 2 starter. 2 giant. 2 elf. 1 sprind. Masquerena, Avramax and Goddess of the closed world. It is an extremely simple deck which is incredibly nonlinear and has a high skill ceiling making it great for the player to learn the mechanics and have enough power to play the game at the adults table. But that shit is never happening because konami cares more about money than the game itself. Undeniably. .

They did this with Duel Links, and what happened with that Game?

Is it perfect no. But Rarran also by his own admittance didn’t even play through all of the tutorial before deciding to jump into ranked. I don’t disagree that the introduction for Master Duel needs improvement, but rarran also went into the whole thing with a huge amount of ego and arrogance that his skill at other TCGs would be enough to make him competent when nothing else really plays like YGO. Also dude got straight up trolled being told to start with Dragonmaid and Salads. He got set up for failure screwed himself more and then cried wolf and accidentally was kinda right

@steelblake still going, actually somehow. Might even come back if they do rush duels well

It is late to make those changes but more tutorials would help. By "more" I mean at least a dozen. At least that way people can see what to expect

MtG has lands so nobody can call it a well designed game. Lands are probably the worst game design idea I've ever seen in any game amongst my thousands of different games played. Modern Yu-Gi-Oh is also terrible, but at least Yu-Gi-Oh had a time when it could say it was well designed, 10-15 years ago.

​@@Sinzari Lands are a choice that you don't like. That does not make them poor design. Yugioh was never well designed.

And it was always something the fighting community pointed out as a flaw. This is why after complaining for so long they finally added a way for new players to actually learn the game in sf6.

@@amuro9624 Tbf like half of the SF6 community are STILL complaining about that being added. A lot like ygo players they'll never be happy unless they have something to complain about

Seriously. I played Tekken and managed to beat the AI in story mode at 2nd hardest difficulty. Played online and just kept dying to people spamming the best moves that most players who have experience know how easy it is to punish but I couldn't figure out and just kept dying to low after low attacks and could barely get a hit in. Took me days to figure out how to counter those moves.

This is why it's better to just not play master duel and play the tcg. Yugioh is a game made for player interaction

as someone who actively engages with a lot of new fighting game players, even with all the new tools that sf6 gives you to learn the game between world tour/modern controls/better tutorials/better training mode, new players will still complain about getting combo'd, not being allowed to press buttons, etc. People will always complain about things they do not understand.@@amuro9624

Except this was addressed in Ram Ranch's first video.

You’re describing an MLM not a successful multiplayer game. Omg. You shouldn’t need a sponsor to get you involved

He did that when he was building that Salad deck and still failed. At that point, the only thing at fault there is his refusal to understand what the f is goin on during the game. He even failed to grasp the core Dragonmaid gameplay which is both funny and sad. Fucking Sykkuno and Luslie were able to grasp the concept of modern YGO gaming. The only logical conclusion is that, Rarran was already dead set on not accepting complicated shit like modern YGO from the moment he boots up MD. The terrible matches he got into is the final hit to his guts.

@shinyanakagawa8241 Honesty, it was almost comedical how he didn't want to read his cards or see the tutorials and then immediately ran into Rikka, one of the most wacky yet strong combo decks

Except that's only half of the story. When players had outside help, they are more likely to keep playing. So the "most" people you are talking about are only the ones that stayed. Master duel was one of the most played games on steam for the first week, but lost most of its players right after. That speaks for itself and shows that "most" actual players problably didn't have a guide and quit just like Rarran, only a couple hours after trying it out. I think we need to look at the potential this new wave of players had and how much of a wasted opportunity this was. This game could be way more popular if there were ways build-in to the game to help new players.

i mean that's great, but it still doesn't solve the issues of TEXT LONG it will take you literal months upon months to get even a basic grasp of what every deck can do not to mention the sheer magnitude of fuckery going on, like how "send to the GY" is different from "destroy" and so on and the other issue being that you need to watch almost an entire anime episode before it's your turn, and then it's time for the opponent to do the same, so on and so forth i like yugioh, but holy shit i have absolutely no idea where to even begin when it comes to introducing new players to it, or if it's even a good idea to do so anyways

Plus it gives the yugi boomers a place to play tge fans they like within an official engine And just let everyone get a break from 50 chain link summons and sometimes you just need the relaxation (especially if you do primarily play synchros or fusions so wouldn’t feel the sting of losing asiexts of the deck as bad) Also structure deck mode where you pick a structure deck and have only a couple simple additional cards to augment them I know I’d certainly play that since immortal glories the only thing u have experience with

Not to mention skill on a match is also very knowledge depending. Knowing what your opponent is going for is so important, especially in yugioh where turn 1 is the equivalent of the late turns of mana-driven card games. Farfa is literally comparing a dude who can see what class the oponent is playing in HS and have an idea of what deck he may be playing vs playing yugioh with a literal blindfold on to any move the opponent makes.

Yugioh deck building for beginners 101 1. Netdeck 2. Now learn how to play your deck bozo 3. You know your deck now? Here's the techs you can use in your deck bozo.

Yugioh’s beginning is other card games end game unless you bricked your draw Thing is the reason I personally dont like current yugioh is that there is no back and forth, no mind games, Yugioh is currently more like a power fantasy where you’re op from the start, whereas I’m into progressive fantasy series where you get stronger over time Different flavors

I keep saying this, but idk why some players keep off putting rush duel. Yeah, it's simpler and very different, but damn doesn't it solve so many problems people normally have with the current format of yugioh

They have become the Yugiboomers@@oneofthekindscarf8612

no not really, we pretty much already have that the problem is the continental difference between there and the actual game with a beginner format, how in the hell do you expect to get people to ever leave it?

I think beginners format is the wrong term but a structure deck mode being a side option would probably still be fun

Congratulations, you just described *every single tcg to ever exist.* There isn't a single card game that is designed to be played alone. Other than a purely digital game like Hearthstone, they all primarily focus on playing in-person at locals and grow by word of mouth & watching people play. That has zero bearing on the fact that yugioh is uniquely problematic in that it's barrier to entry is not mechanical knowledge, but rather the requirement of a near encyclopedic knowledge of what every card does and how it interacts with every other card in the game. I can sit down with a person whose never played pokemon before, teach them the mechanics, and hand them a deck. Even if they lose or have to ask about an occassional card, there is a good chance they could still play through a game of pokemon with just that mechanical knowledge & pick up the specific knowledge about individual cards as they play. That's impossible in yugioh because the amount of specific card knowledge needed for a person to play their own deck, let alone follow & react to their opponent's, completely dwarfs the mechanical knowledge needed and is unreasonable for a new player to be able to pick up and retain in a reasonable timeframe.

a good game doesn't need guides and study to be able to play at a basic level yugioh does guides and the like are great if you want to go beyond that but when your starting point is here watch all these videos just to understand the basics you have failed as a game

​@@michaelkehabasic level yugioh is easy, there's nothing overly hard or complicated. Yuhiohs problem is that you can't comprehend it in a day. Most people need more than a day to fully grasp all the card types and how they function with each other. It's like driving, you can learn all the basics in a day but your far from actually being able to go drive on the road well.

@@michaelkeha the issue is that you don't ever find yourself in an enviroment to get used to the basics, because, YGO is not a complicated game, the mechanics are quite simple to understand on their own. The fact that you don't have to worry about a resource system also makes deck building easier. Even the fucking card text is very intuititive once you know what PSCT is. the reason why modern YGO is complex is because it requires you to have an intimate knowledge of both how the different mechanics interact with each other and what the impact of card effects are. Dragon Maid, Dark Magician. They are not complicated decks, but even a beginner would struggle to understand what the impact of their plays actually means for the gamestate. Because Master Duel just throws you into a very deep pool and goes "lol learn to swim nerd"

@@michaelkeha He just needed to play the actual tutorial, he only did 1/3 of it and then jumped straight into ranked. Dragonmaids was a completely fine deck to learn the game with all things considered.

​@@michaelkeha what are you talking about? Summoning Seal or Heatsoul is the bare minimum the deck can do and link summon into link climbing is literally taught in the Solo Mode (Duel Training gate). If he is unaware of that because he skips the tutorial, it's his mistake.

Also the first story modes where they teach you summoning mechanics and dmg step would have been good to do just to understand a bit. It’s like he only learnt how the pawn moves but not the knight or bishop.

Salamangreat is only difficult to play if you don't know the basic rulings of the game. If you know the rulings of link summoning, xyz summoning, trigger effects etc, then salads is not too difficult to get into. Yugioh isn't the kind of game where you learn a lot of the basic rules by playing. You already need that knowledge to have fun, which makes it different from other card games.

​@@plzcme434I disagree on Salamangreat part. Sure, the deck itself and it's lines aren't that complicated (although not that obvious either), however the way you play Sunlight Wolf/Heatsoul control - is. You need to know what you're playing against to effectively use your handtraps and roar/rage to not get immediately blown away, otherwise the deck loses most of its strength. This is why Rarran should've sticked to Dragonmaids or any other deck that aims to execute it's own combo rather than hindering opponent's.

@@plzcme434But that’s what he’s saying is the problem though. It’s not inherently bad that yugioh is that way, but it’s bad that that information is not given to new players from the get go. As someone who has tried to get people to play the game, this is the main thing that really drives people away.

The Starter deck should be full power pure Spright with Avramax, Masquerena, goddess, 2 giant. 2 elf. 2 blue. 2 starter. 3 ash. 3 Maxx c. 2 called by. 3 imperm. Incredibly simple deck with nonlinear play style. Infinite combos. And a high skill ceiling. But konami loves money more than they love their players or actually making master duel a playable game.

The Starter deck should be full power pure Spright with Avramax, Masquerena, goddess, 2 giant. 2 elf. 2 blue. 2 starter. 3 ash. 3 Maxx c. 2 called by. 3 imperm. Incredibly simple deck with nonlinear play style. Infinite combos. And a high skill ceiling. But konami loves money more than they love their players or acrually making master duel a playable game.

I agree. Give 25 tutorial stages (1 for each year of ygo) with whatever big gameplay mechanic that was going on at the time

@@isidoreaerys8745 the drytron herald in solo mode basically ranked deck.

​@@SkyFireYZthe guy only played 3 steps of the tutorial and didn't want to play solo mode. Do you really think that more tutorial or bots would have helped? As he said "he wants to play against other players".

majority of people it's the exact opposite they try it they get smoked and go this game is awful I don't understand I'm moving on

@@michaelkeha This example isnt very good because it applies to every thing in life

thats a terrible design and it mean you will never get new blood into your game. which mean the game will just die overtime... have fun with your empty game soon :)

@@phatal4573There are many ways even if you don't have friends who play yugioh, 'someone you know' doesn't require the other person knowing you after all. For example a streamer who plays collab with one who doesn't, a viewer starts after watching a streamer plays etc.

@@phatal4573people been saying that a decade ago, yugioh is still going strong keep dreaming

Yeah, and the fact is that on a new account with a beginner elo in the casual ladder he found himself against people who were CLEARLY not on the same 0 knowledge level as him. I used to be top master in starcraft 2. Do you think a new player should be playing and learning against me? Because the point I made to friends who wanted to give it a go was that they would not find it fun if they played either with me on coop or against me. At that point it's not a game, it's a wall. The difference doesn't even have to be that big. Rarran's video makes a wonderful showcase of it. Hours and hours of going against people above his skill level isn't fun nor enlightning because, as his point well stated, yugioh is dogshit in newcomer experience. Master Duel doesn't give you a solid base to start growing. Does the Halo campaign teach me how to beat other players? No, arguably no but at the very least it teaches me how to move around, how the shield works, how the different weapons and vehicles work in a manner I can watch a pvp halo clip and parse it good enough, if not perfectly well to understand what happened. Compare that to yugioh. Do you genuinely think a newcomer, after playing the tutorial and the solo gates, is able to watch a replay of the WCS that are avaible and understand the play by play? Each decision made and the thought each one had? You can lower the bar to the ranked replays if you think comparing it against the WCS is unfair, the point is still the same. Yes, the point of any competitive game is to get better but if the game doesn't allow you to get better then it's understandable that tons of people drop out as soon as they face this wall. Neither HS, nor LoR, nor magic have this wall. That is why we struggle to get new people in and not getting more people spiral into new people not being able to face off against their own level, shoving them against said hard ass wall. Why bother with it when other games have a better first experience?

@@hazamax2139 understandable but Master duel is arguably the worst possible way to learn the game. You would literally gain more knowledge just by watching the anime than the Master duel tutorial.

@@whenisdinner2137 You mean the show where they literally cheat? Yeah I don't know about that. We still have people who think god cards are like the anime. It is also the intended way of learning. You wouldn't say "oh sorry, you kinda need to watch the whole Halo show to play against people." because that's fucking insane. If MD's tutorials are not good enough for a new player to get a solid base of how the game is played then the solution should be to work on how to set that base, not to shove the problem away to a third party.

@@hazamax2139 yes the show where they literally cheat is still a better teacher of the rules then master duel. By a significant margin as well. This game literally would not exist if it wasn't for the anime.

Which comes back at my point. You shouldn't have to interact with something else in order to learn and play the game. That goes for yugioh, for HS and for any game, not just card games. Master Duel really needs to work on that new player experience and it's something that everyone should be pressing further. Up until this month we've been bleeding players ever since february. If MD keeps up like this, it ain't living another year.

The Starter deck should be full power pure Spright with Avramax, Masquerena, goddess, 2 giant. 2 elf. 2 blue. 2 starter. 3 ash. 3 Maxx c. 2 called by. 3 imperm. Incredibly simple deck with nonlinear play style. Infinite combos. And a high skill ceiling. But konami loves money more than they love their players or actually making master duel a playable game.

i mean they have structure in their name, they serve has quick invest in an archetype or a specific type of deck, u don't get the big card for most of them i'll take the zombie structure from MD since i play zombie in tcg format : scapegoat, pain painter, zombie master, onmoraki, samurai skull, guard ghost, Koa'ki Meiru Ghoulungulate, Red Ogre, Overpowering Eye, Ghost of a Grudge, Reject Reborn, The Deep Grave are either too slow or basicly useless but where are the solitaire shiranui ? where the nethersoul with super poly ? where the vampire sucker ? even worse where dharc ? oh and did i mention it come without balerdroch so pretty much no win condition structure deck would make a terribly slow, unoptimised, unfun, and un balanced format so even worse to learn the game the best way to learn is by playing with friend and some good old rogue deck not by going against konami whales with kashtira

But that's the point, this is too much to learn from the start. New players don't need to pilot a full power zombie deck, they need to learn how to pilot a standard zombie deck. To get used to the mechanics, the wording, and possibilities of the game. Then, when learning how to play the standard format, they don't get upset as Ranran did, for just not knowing what was happening. A structure deck only format, makes it easy to balance the matches, so stuff like structure dragonmaid doesn't get stomped by full power dragon link. They have to be slow, so they can play the game They can't learn how to play the game, if they don't get a chance to play the game. And yeah, the access for powerful staples should be easier, but the bundle packs are there for a reason. They can also use that as something for a format like that I'm not saying something out of reality That's literally what used to be in pokémon tcg online If u r new to the game, u were locked into pvp starter decks only format (Ig they removed that from PTCG Live bc the game is extremely easy lol) If it's unfun to you, it's fine, ofc it'd be for us, as a player i rather play the fast combo pace game that I'm used to. I love yugioh with all my heart. But we are talking about a new player experience, so ofc our enjoyment, as regular players, shouldn't be considered when organizing something like that.

i get ur point and mostly agree Yu gi oh is way more complex than most of the other TCG u NEED to go check for ressources, guides, video, watch matches to understand thing ppl won't hold back at local cuz ur new they'll say sorry and still put 10 negate on the board learning yu gi oh is like learning league of legend, so many characters and items combinations u need to be aware of or else u get blasted and therefore have hard time getting in it's clearly not beginner friendly and rush duel will compensate that but will not be helpfull if u wanna taste the sauce of the real deal i've seen some short of MD where a guy play zombie against old PK rongho dude was complaining about a 5 material rongho ash, droll, nibiru, effect veiler, imperm and pretty much all handtrap shutdown PK entire turn the true problem in MD is that is one game not Bo3 with sidding

@@lvcka7416 we had it long ago, called duel trial 1. You think people like that? No

YGO to chess is like, when you start learning castling or en passant exists... lol

invoked, swordsoul, sky striker, eldlich, etc there is a lot of archtypes that is very simple to play and understand and while salad isnt ritual beast hard its still not that easy of a deck when its win-con likely isnt clear for someone picking it up for the first time

duh, the problem is that he needs to do that in the first place

Hard disagree. I genuinely think Yu-Gi-Oh is a poorly designed game. Getting into other TCGs is incredibly simple and even if the skill gap is wide you are at least able to understand the game. There are so many hidden mechanics in this game that every time you get past one wall, you hit another one. It's hard to ever get comfortable like that. And none of that is to mention card design. Can you imagine spending a week learning the game to a point where you're finally comfortable joining the rank ladder and the first deck you run into is something Arcana Force the world turbo or a deck like barrier statue stun? Decks that don't even let you play the game. Then imagine learning that those decks can't even hold a candle to the 15th best deck of the format? Even with PSCT, we have players that struggle to understand the difference between a cost and a condition or why The Tricky doesn't start a chain but Blaster does. If this game isn't friendly to veteran or returning players how do you think the common new player experience is? I didn't realize how bad it was until I started playing other card games seriously. I was able to hold my own in CFV and Digimon after 1 local tournament each. I understood how to play magic after my second match with a pre-built deck. Was ever ready to top a regional? No. But I had enough confidence to feel comfortable while playing the game. The learning curve with YGO is too steep to do it alone.

People like mbt or Raran who thinks it’s ridiculous to look up a guide are neck deep in boomer compium. I don’t care if you’ve never used a guide, some games and hobbies you need a hand to get into and that’s especially normalized these days and it’s not an unreasonable or bad thing

100% agree. When md came out, one of the first things i did after getting destroyed in ranked was look up what were the best decks, and after that a tri-brigade combo video. Going in blind again didn’t even cross my mind.

@@michaellockett4044 I don't think the example you provided is actually a good one. The World Turbo and Barrier Stun? Sure, those decks sound awful, but they've never been the norm in Yugioh. Neither of those decks have ever been so relevant even in a casual setting so it's pretty dumb. What's funny is the best decks in the game right now allow the player more chances to play than the random one-off floodgate deck so it doesn't really make your point that well. Even the current meta with Kashtira in it has far more back and forth now than those decks did when people were theorycrafting them only to discover they were pretty awful.

You're comparing being introduced to the physical card game to being introduced to Yu-Gi-Oh through master duel.

not even past first question and Farfa seems can't retort Rarran back lol

Almost like people are taking issue with him screaming at people and calling them petty losers instead of the points he's making.

@@waskithonugroho3955 and try that again but proper English?

Something can be true, but you don't agree with it, nothing wrong with that, they are not mutually exclusive

​@@aka_IngmarOh Sorry, English isn't my first language so I don't really aware

But that’s every card game…. Knowing what your cards are and how they connect to other cards and your eventual win con It’s just more like the games are reversed, late game mtg is early game Yugioh You start your engine and his the gas as hard as you can in Yugioh, whereas the other games you slowly build your engine while the trying to stop your opponents (which applies to Yugioh as well but at an alarming pace as your engine is already playable) Main difference is definitely pace

I don’t think it’s like souls like or rougelit eat all. Simply put those games you go in trial and error get stronger over time Yugioh on the other hand is more like you’re OP from the start. Like a fighting game where you need to know your combo and the enemies combo down from the very beginning just by a look at their first few plays (turn 1-2) MtG and hearthstone is more like souls where you need to brawl out while establishing board state and following a mana curve (leveling in souls) Both games definitely require knowledge before you go meta like in any game

the tried and true Yu-Gi-Oh experience

Yugioh seems to have the Dark Souls effect on new players

History of every single Yu-Gi-Oh player's life

It happened to all of us, didn't it?

@@aparctias happened to me during D/D/D Format

No no he has a point. The limited card pool makes it harder in the current day to play as the card pool would absolutely gut so many decks that are simple to play in current day but help offer an understanding of modern design.

It's almost like we should have a mode with a smaller rotating card pool for new players and whomever wants, and a mode with all the cards in yugioh for experienced players. I wonder what other card games have implemented this, oh right all of them

Do what Magic does. *Create formats*.

So crazy idea make tutorials that are good

@@hibiki8473 The problem is, is that the tutorials would never be comprehensive enough for you to get to the skill level required to play "casual" yugioh. Rather than tutorials to get your skills to the level needed to play the meta, you are instead building extremely comprehensive deck tutorials. And that's a level of investment that's too much to ask if you want active participation in your game. @hwahTV I agree, Konami needs to create a good alternative format that's easy to step into, moderately rewards skill expression and doesn't create non games for one party as well as has room to grow(set support). Effectively you need an alternative to Modern Yugioh that still gets set support but has hard limits. And then on top of that, Konami would need to support it with tournaments and community events.

@@TsuikeNovaus so crazy idea make tutorials good and people understand a basic idea what's going on what's fucking wrong with all of you no one saying the tutorial makes you understand 100% of every card but give you a fucking idea. You people are why Yu-Gi-Oh will die

I don't agree with that analysis because most of that was Farfa evading the question on purpose to be funny. Farfa agrees that there should be changes made, but he also thinks that the game is fun the way it is so changes have to account for not changing the game radically. "as dirt simple as keywords" I agree with Farfa 100% on this one. Keywords in yugioh are almost impossible because of the nuance in card text. If you read any effect there are probably 5 different words that define condition, timing and resolution that you can't boil down to 1 or 2 keywords without making it a convoluted mess.

@@nh6574 Yeah, just using fewer words doesn't necessarily make the game less confusing and more simple in a good way. They would have to completely strip the game of its identity and fluidity at this point to make it attractive to broader audiences, and there's no guarantee that you would keep those broader audiences and maintain the dedicated playerbase that you already have. They implemented key words, like quick effect, excavate, banish, negate, etc already and it didn't make the game less confusing or more simple because those actions weren't removed from the game. In fact, condensing concepts and actions down into fewer words would probably just allow them to put even more things on the card and have it do more things, rather than make them simpler.

@@grillmaster95 Yeah, yugioh text already has a TON of keywords. They're just combined to make complicated effects

@@nh6574 With direct regard to the point Farfa made on keywords, I would like to point out that in Farfa's video responding directly to Rarran (rant beginning at around 4:40) he ends up saying: "I will say, as a valid form of criticism - that one hundred percent, Konami needs to redesign the card text on YGO, fully stop. Either with keywords - if you don't like keywords, I still believe keywords are the best way to do it. But, as a compromise, I would suggest using the OCG way of formatting card text, which is bullet points." On this quote alone (from 5 days ago at the time of writing this comment), I do not agree that reformatting text is utterly impossible. Heck as one person put it, we already did have a key word added to the game over the years: _Banish._ And _Piercing_ too, if you want to get technical. But aside from that, there is still the elephant in the room of "he thinks the game is fun the way it is," is the point of concern here. By his own admission from the same video - and for that matter, the admission of most people who make Newbie/Yugiboomer response videos - is that YGO as a game is far too complicated for its own good. Complexity in gameplay is fine to an extent, but the barrier to entry is so ungodly high that unless you got in early and grew with the game, you are looking at perhaps months of practice and study to understand this game at the level required to play it well, and that ignores also having to familiarize yourself with the strategy of your deck, knowing all 40+ cards, the win conditions, and then apply all of that to your opponent as well. And mind, all of this ignores the card meta, so players who might be willing to learn so they can play their favorite decks properly still end up getting thrashed like it was that Pepe fast food meme, because not playing anything in recent formats means that those cards arent designed with the current style of play in mind. Once again, all of this in short; Konami cannot make YGO in the way that they do, while EXPECTING new players will flock to it like just like that. The gap between the skill floor and ceiling are just too laughably high for that. While people may agree that the game is fine the way that it is, that is evidently not true for the ones on the outside coming in, and some sort of give and improvement is going to be necessary to treat this. *Post-scrip note: I actually got pulled away for a half hour before I got the chance to hit the 'post' button, so I have had some time to collect my thoughts. While I do still basically stand by what I said, I do apologize if my tone comes off as needlessly aggressive. Seems I have been keeping a bit of an attitude since I awoke splattered in rain this morning. In any case, I leave wishing you a pillow of Kuribohs

​@@grillmaster95 I disagree with this, if only for the reason that using Keywords to reduce the amount of text on the cards has nothing to do with the amount of effects themselves. The problem of a monster having an entire saga of effects written onto it is an entirely different issue, one that I think that keywords help to combat, if anything. For example, changing "Cannot be destroyed by battle" to "Unbeatable" does not inherently mean that Konami will feel compelled to shove spell immunity in there too to fill up space. Keywords exist in games so as to simplify mechanics down to a collection of recognizable memetic terms. If anything, YGO cards fully embracing Keywords would probably read a lot like MtG cards, which I do not think is a bad thing. I do think that the game would be better served if cards had fewer effects on them, but that is still a discussion for another time. P.S. For funsies I decided to try and keyword meme-Master Endymion: Pendulum: (Hard Once Per Turn); Spend 6 of your Spell-Counters from field: Special Summon; Destroy Opponent's cards up to your number of Spell-Counter Bearers, then gain as many Spell-Counters as cards destroyed. Monster: (Quick) (Once per turn); When opponent activates a spell: Recall 1 of your Spell-Counter Bearers; Counter Opponent's Spell, then gain Recalled Bearer's Spell-Counters. While bearing 1+ Spell-Counter(s); • Gain All-Proof to Opponent • When destroyed by Opponent; Search 1 Normal Spell This rework is a about 1/2 the length of the original card's text, and could actually be made shorter here, since "Counter" as a keyword for "negate and destroy" would not necessarily need the (Quick), as it would already be implied.

hes done plenty of videos on yugioh cards with stevie blunder!

In theory, solo gates seem really cool, but in practice, they just clog your brain with 20 elementsaber cards

@@Lyrog and that was what I was getting at. There isn't enough depth towards the archetype and they'll throw in random archetypes that have never actually had synergy in a practical setting.

Midrange deck with a lot of routes

Decks with linear lines are much more beginner friendly; Salamangreat has some "optimal" combos, but it's not very linear

If only you could get bitches😔