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I took a Frank Proctor class and he put a laser on his Sig on an overcast day. To look at the muzzle, it didn't look like it was rising at all. Yet looking at the target, you could see the laser jumping to the top of the target. His return was dead on with very fast splits. Thanks for the videos.
Brian Enos in his book Practical Shooting Beyond Fundamentals said something very similar regarding how much the sight lifts doesn’t matter, what does matter is consistency of sight recovery.
yup, all the best shooters I've ever spoken to say the exact same thing. I tried it out myself comparing a G19 to a G21 (45 cal), the split times and groups were not different by any significant margin.
@a38337 that's hogwash, if the Red Dot doesn't lift as much it's obviously going to recover faster. I'm not saying people can't overcome an inferior platform and be competitive. But there's a reason a gun like the Shadow 2 is so popular in carry Optics
@@mariosmith8456 I used to think that as well but have found, for me, it doesn't matter that much. For example, I have multiple configurations of open guns (shorties, 5" slides, Ti comps, steel comps, lightened slides, non lightened slides), and have owned multiple configurations of limited guns. Personal preference matters a lot, and that comes with what your experience is. Some people prefer a lighter gun up front, some a heavier gun. Let's take Glocks - I can configure a Glock in multiple ways: add a X300, add weight in the back of the gun, etc. With all these things, grip is what matters most, to provide recoil recovery. Ben says as much in his video. And he proves it in his shooting of different guns, achieving similar results. I've trained with Ben, Travis Tomassie, Matt Burkett, Scott Jedlinski, and local M and GM shooters and I made A class in Open and Limited more than 20 yrs ago (before I stopped shooting USPSA regularly . . . I work weekends). Regardless, use time and score to find what works for you.
@@mariosmith8456 It's a basic deductive reasoning/logic approach. How fast does the slide cycle? A Glocks slide operates at around 1200rpm when given a Wish giggle switch or when it comes as a G18 from the factory. How fast are the best shooters with their split times? They rarely ever go lower than 0.15, but very well... I will say 0.10 for the sake of the argument. Meaning 10 shots in 1 second. Meaning that the BEST shooters in the world, the absolute highest quality professional shooters can only get an RPM of 600 at best if ALL of their splits happen perfectly at .10. The Glocks slide cycles TWICE as fast as a professional shooter can keep up. And again, I am even giving you leeway for the sake of the argument, the reality is that the Glocks slide cycles 2/3rds FASTER than a professional shooter can keep up. There's no way it will make a difference to a human being. And if it doesn't make a difference to the pros, it definitely wont make a difference to the layman.
@a38337 I didn't really want to mention my credentials but I'm a master class USPSA shooter, I'm only mentioning that because I don't want to come off as someone who doesn't understand competition . Ben puts brass grips on his Shadow 2, there would be no reason to do that unless he got some kind of slight gain in Recoil control. And I've heard him say many times in videos that shooting shots at long distance with a gun Like a Shadow 2 is easier than shooting with a lighter plastic gun. I mean the proof is really in the results, the CZ Shadow platform dominated Co nats. Christian Seiler actually made a joke in a recent podcast talking about he was really thinking about shooting a Glock 17 at Nationals, the way he was talking about it was like for him to go and win with the Glock 17 would be a more difficult task than with his shadow 2.
The best gun / gun design is the one that matches the mechanics of your body and muscular reflexes. Arguing what gun / gun design is the best is like arguing what athletic shoe is the best. When you find the one that works for you, tell another about it if they show interest. Other than that, people need to STFU about I know the greatest thing ever and all others know dogs*t.
@@lukenick2299we are talking about how the best gun for a 6’5 260lb man with XL hands might not be the best gun for a 5’7 160lb man with M hands. I’m a big guy, but what fits my hands well and grip well doesn’t mean it’ll be perfect for everyone. I don’t like the shadow 2s cause my grip rubs the safety on my support palm, but it’s perfect for others 🤷
I'm a decent competitive shooter (M class) and I tell new Shooters it's all about what fits your hand best. My hands aren't that big so a CZ Shadow 2 fits well. Something like a Walther PDP steel is a great gun it just doesn't fit my hand right
I was told by the interwebathons that going into Klarna debt for a mass-production 1911-based platform would make me a Tier 1 operatorist dude guy and I'm not cool if I just bought a plebeian Glockasaurus rex instead. I'm sorry.
In my experience shooting my Shadow 2 vs my striker fired guns…the Shadow does everything better and makes everything easier. It compensates for the shooter not doing all of the fundamentals correctly. You can shoot a regular striker pistol almost as well if you have the skills but the better gun does make a difference. It has drawbacks but pure range shooting it just allows you to perform better. Given this I still shoot my striker pistols at all the classes I take and use them for my carry guns. I shoot them just fine.
Staccato did a few major things. Biggest thing: THEY FIXED THE MAGS. I remember the 2011s of 15~20 years ago, and dudes showing up with a massive baggy to put over the gun if it was even remotely sprinkling or it turned into a jamomattic.
For us mortals here, I would love to hear what you feel is perfect in your hands. That for me is the difference in mindset for a high level dude and an average guy who is always looking for that “tweak”.
What works for me is knowing that Bob Vogel can outshoot me with a pretty much stock Glock 34 in .40cal using irons sights. Since he's not superhuman and I am a pretty athletic guy myself, there's no reason I can't get to that level with my tweaked out competition pistol. The question is, are you willing to put in the time?
@@HWG-wm8ld I think you're projecting here. Shooting isn't as physical as you think. I liken shooting more to something like street magic. Where drilling and practicing your sleight of hand skills are what set you apart from the rest (precision, hand placement, hand-eye coordination, etc). Shooting doesn't require much strength, physical durability, or raw explosive speed. As much as I respect Vogel, he's definitely not a once in a lifetime athlete. If that's the excuse you're using for not trying to get at or near his level, you should drop it because you're not fooling any other competitor. Just accept you're not willing to put in the time. Or if you're THAT physically inferior compared to the average man, then sure, you can't be "vogal".
When working doubles (with a Glock no less) my second shots go low when I feel like I’m controlling the muzzle rise. Once I’m perceiving more muzzle rise and just ride the recoil like a wave, that’s when accuracy goes up and split times go down. When I got into shooting, everyone I followed was all about death gripping the gun and recoil mitigation. Ben is the first instructor I’ve followed whose concepts have undoubtedly made me a better shooter and gotten me over plateaus. I just have to train like crazy to overwrite the bad habits I learned elsewhere.
Once again, thanks for the great drama inducing videos! I really enjoyed listening to your comments and how freaked out you make certain people. Great entertainment!
@@HWG-wm8ld My trolling worked hahahah I dont own a staccato but god you simps are easy to get butt hurt. And the fact you could not tell it was trolling makes the the most comical part. Its to easy
I shot the new bul this last weekend with the comps and ports, and i didn’t notice a difference between the one with just ports. Everyone else seemed to notice.
I really like the Wolff variable power recoil springs in a 1911/2011, it improves the feel in recoil, opens up a little easier with more slide speed, has the most power when it's stripping the round and then closes without a lot of excess energy. Probably worth getting a few different weights if you try it out.
I know a guy who quotes 1 review of a comped gun for the recoil angle from 1 shot every time he justifies his $1500 purchase. And I still outshoot him with a Glock clone "It's got an 11 degree recoil angle!" "yea, but your splits are slow as shit and you missed anyways".
@@Slimmerman223 Or... point out the fact that he wasted money trying to buy skill? Is he a true friend if I don't point out issues? Just let him enjoy his cocaine and dig his own grave. he's having fun with his pain after all!
I shot a Staccato P recently and it felt snappier than my Glock 17 and my Glock 19. I also thought it was a bit worse in that regard than my Canik Rival but kinda similar honestly. The main issue I had with it was it felt like I was going to induce a malfunction by letting my thumb ride on the slide during the recoil cycle. I never actually did induce a malf, but it felt sluggish compared to what I'm used to. When I shot the Springfield Prodigy letting my thumb ride on the slide DID cause malfunctions. Quite a few of them actually. So, at least its better than the Prodigy. It's also like $3000 which is too much money for a production handgun.
I had a 2011 jog its way out of my holster yesterday and fall onto the ground, i expected more people to freak out and think it'd go off with how your drop test videos have been making the rounds. Damn thing kept puking mud on me until i stripped and cleaned it even though i drowned it in lube.
I would really like to see the difference between those 2 and a full size P320. My 320 ‘feels’ snappy, yes it has a higher bore axis than my G17 & G45, but i feel the 320 looks like it has more recoil than even my G20 10mm. Would love to see the comparison of the 320 and the Glock.
Speaking of follow-up, there was a PSTG podcast earlier this year, maybe late last year, that you or Joel mentioned you will be working with and or discussing carry handguns...No? Do enjoy the gear talk. Oh, and when is the new book ETA? Cheers.
Bought a Shadow 2 Compact. Recoil is nice…. DEFINITELY feels over sprung. Comfortable, nice weight, nice smooth trigger press. I wanna LOVE it… but the Smith and Wesson M&P 2.0 with an apex trigger….. there’s just something about it. Recoil is nice, easy to just let the gun do its thing and be fast and accurate 🤷🏻♂️
@@justinkase1360 comps from companies like parker mountain machine who extensively test their products and have data backing their effectiveness. A not properly done comp is one like the Griffin micro carry comp which has ports 360 degrees around which wouldn’t work very well with mitigating recoil.
Funny that you sort of mentioned the Para's as reliable compared to early 2011's. I have two Pro Customs, one in 9mm, one in 40. People often mention they heard they weren't reliable. Mine have never had a hiccup in 5 years and people who shoot them, love them. Even had a guy with an STI try to get me to sell one. As much as I like the way they fit my hands, there's not a ton of difference if I pick up someone's Glock.
Random unrelated question but can you discuss choosing the right grips or backstraps for handguns? What you look for both objectively and subjectively. What feels good in my hand is not always what makes me shoot the best so it could be a good topic.
To me, it seems like bigger grips are better. My hands aren't all that big (Large size in gloves like Mechanix), but I always end up running the biggest grip configuration I can on whatever pistol. All I can think of is the bigger diameter grips let me get a stronger grip.
@@immikeurnotI found the same thing myself brother. The largest grips I can run always shoot the best for me even if it doesn't feel as comfortable or ergonomic to hold
Make the grip so that you’re not stretching the trigger finger or over inserting the trigger finger. Most people will say you want the trigger to fall in the middle of the tip of the finger pad for optimal performance. Once you’re used to the trigger it won’t really matter so long as you’re not extreme in one direction or the other. My current setup isn’t adjustable and my trigger is closer than id like. But i shoot it with no problem.
I can't see myself buying a G34 when the Canik Rival/Rival-S pistols are available and more equipped out of the box for less money than it would take to upgrade a Glock for carry optics or production.
It’s that way to help with the flip due to lack of overall weight. Other guns are very similar. Can you only drive a truck and not a car? Two different seating positions
simple statement. The grip angle on a Glock jams my finger to the bottom of the trigger where it gets pinched between the trigger and the trigger guard. Maybe I'm weird but that is the truth.
It's hard for me to buy into the "gun doesn't matter argument" when some of the people making the argument are shooting a CZ with brass grips that weighs 55 Oz
@americanball_2841 I respect people that shoot with inferior guns but I just don't like when people say gun doesn't matter but then have it all tricked out. Also let's be realistic here, I think five of the top six guys were shooting Shadow 2s at Nats. And if you extrapolate that out to the top 20 I bet you only one or two people were shooting plastic guns
@@mariosmith8456 You cannot buy skill. When it comes to competing the things that really boil it down are consistency. The guy who won CO nats didnt stage win a single time. The gun is a very small part of the equation. This is a mental sport. With a gun thrown in.
@americanball_2841 as much as I hate to admit it I disagree, I just went and looked through the top 20 and I think Merriam and nils are the only guys shooting plastic. There's a bunch of shadows, and a couple pdp steel frames that I know of. A lot of people obviously I don't know what they shoot. A fancy gun isn't going to make a poor shooter a good shooter, but it will make a good shooter a better shooter. I'm sorry but if a 28 Oz Glock was really as good as a Shadow 2 I think you would see a ton more of them from the top guys in USPSA because they are much cheaper, easier to clean, and more reliable. In open people can compete with the CZ Checkmate sure, but it definitely is aubpar to an infinity. Even JJ racaza admitted that his Beretta in its open configuration is not as good of a shooter as his 2011s
If you can shoot a 12 second El Pres with a Glock, you'll probably shoot it in 11 seconds with a Stacatto....so there's your reason and justification to buy one.
Most of the "tactical" instructors unironically consider that a good El Prez. You can find examples of Ken Hackathorn literally saying that a 10 second El Prez is "NoT bAd At AlL".
Metal guns, 2011's, these guns shoot softer. But as long as you train recoil shouldn't be a real issue with any gun. Anyone who says "It's too snappy" should train more, sometimes a gun that's snappier can still recenter on target as quickly as one with less recoil. I care much more about triggers than recoil.
My take-away is that the nominal performance gain (for most people) isn't going to be worth the exorbitant extra cost (for most people). I'd never spend the money on a Staccato when I can get a very suitable combat handgun for 4X less. It makes no sense to me.
Glock is a good simple platform, Staccato is also, normally Glock guys end up spending as much when they are done modifying theirs as a Staccato cost. Staccato is great out of the box. Both great guns!
Well, the term of the hour is "runs flatt"... heard a guy the other day say it's safer to run a Flatt shooting gun. People are so into getting ports & compensater for 9mm😮...how bout train and learn how to grip the gun.
I talk about this on my channel all the time. I definitely shoot my Glock 34 better than my staccato P. Group think is a powerful thing. With that said, I enjoy my staccato with no regrets, but my Glock feels better in hand for sure.
recoil is subjective. not everybody feels it the same, and not everybody tolerates it the same. find what works for you. i know, thats not as fun as telling everybody anything other than what you use sucks.... LOL the internet is the land of trolls.
Lol let’s be real, you get a 2011 for the trigger. If you’re predictive shooting, target focused, and have your grip down, recoil isn’t an issue in a 9mm ride
You've mentioned it before, and others have mentioned it as well: the range ammo you use is a fair amount more mild than the duty ammo your audience is imagining. If you were to do the same video again, but with Gold Dots or whatever pet loading of choice, there might be a slight more visual difference but still not as much as the fanbois would imagine.
I'm just going to say this, if you think the Glock "ergonomics" are bad, you're probably a 1911 boomer. The two controls a Glock has are easy to reach and activate with normal hands. The grip angle is fine, if you have problems with it, you're just a terrible shooter. A good shooter can go back and forth with NO ISSUE. Train more.
All i know is i shot Glock for damn near 15 years . After 15 years i bought P320 X5 LEGION and i shot that significantly better than the Glock . After 3 years of shooting the X5 i bought S2 SAO and i shoot that significantly better than the X5. Went out and shot my XR920 i shot that significantly better than i shot my X5 or G17 . Sounds like to me the Indian will always be better than the arrow but sometimes the arrow is needed for the indian to get better . America F**K Yeah..
If you made that many "significantly better" jumps after 15 years with a Glock, then I wonder what the hell you were doing with the Glock for all those years. I've been competing with a Glock off and on for 20 years. I don't have 5% performance gain left in the tank, no matter how good the gun. Nothing is going to improve my draw times, bill drills, splits, or whatever "significantly".
My experience as well switching to X5 after 3 yrs competing with G34 (which I still love). Most Glock fanatics on this channel do not compete, or are low-level competitors; very few Glocks in higher levels of USPSA.
@@johnsmith-ci8uj There are very few people at the higher levels of USPSA and the difference between the best is marginal, in which case, the *perfect* pistol for the user may make a difference. For everyone else, I can imagine that the right gun that fits the user will make some difference, I just can't imagine anything being that significant after years of training.
@@johnsmith-ci8uj I actually owned 2011 at the same time I owned the S2 SAO. I actually shot the S2 SAO better . Definitely not significantly better but it was noticeable better . I'll be shooting S2 SAO for the foreseeable future
what happened, got tired of rifle shooting? One week he is all in on long range, next week its BCM is dope, then its criterion swag, now its "rifle is too easy" I am a pistol guy....next week it will be "quit shooting as lead is dangerous", cause the CDC told me and my 10th wife is a nurse, next week it will be "its better than golf". '....and round and round it goes. Perhaps he will buy another truck or something and diss toyota.
The Glock feels like a bomb going off in your hands compared to any of the Staccato's. It's not even debatable, I've shot almost every gun you can think of including Infinity ,,,, not even close. It's reality.
