Debunking Joseph Smith's Fake Affair with FANNY ALGER! (feat. Don Bradley) 

Great points. Joseph was a good man. He loved Emma. We don't know all the details of when he was commanded to practice plural marriage. Even if he was only 95% right, that's good enough for me. Polygamy was different, but I am a descendant of a 2nd wife, so it's hard for me to say it wasn't inspired.

Fax

Spoken like a true Mormon sexist! That’s why child abuse is so rampant in the church and covered up! You all make excuses for the horrible things he did!!!

same

I was going to comment the same. So good.

I am 75, from West Virginia. I heard the word 'scrape' used as if it was a fight or heated argument .

I’ve always hear the “he got himself into a scrape”. I like you am in my 70’s. A scrape was just a difficult situation. Is it possible Fannie was the aggressor? To be a fly upon the wall.

@@pamelarust3487 - "Is it possible Fannie was the aggressor?" I highly doubt this. There's no evidence of it.

But we're supposed to be presentist and cynical about everything!!!

Yeah. Didn't sound like evidence of polygamy. Is that the only evidence of an intimate relationship with him? If so, not buying it.

so why was it such an issue? btw the original is usually quoted as "transaction"

Exactly. Maybe even the two women were arguing about something and Joseph stepped in the middle of it. There are endless possibilities, the point being that "dirty nasty filthy scrape" likely has NOTHING to do with sex with Fanny, or even anything to do with Joseph's "relationship" with Fanny.

@@vendingdudes Emma looked through a slot and saw the transaction in the barn ( between Joseph and Fanny)

I believe there is enough holes in the evidence for at LEAST some reasonable doubt regarding Josephs supposed polygamy. Personally I stand with you (and Joseph) on this.

Joseph practiced polygamy not because he wanted to or believed in it, but because god commanded it and Joseph was gods servant. Makes me respect Joseph even more knowing this fact.

@@jaredheath3642Joseph didn’t write section 132.

@@Hpencer keep coping.

Thank you so much. I wish they would stop. They are making people leave the Church

And if you read his denials, they are cagey, not outright

This is a great point, Don Bradley, who is great in a lot of ways, was being paid by Bryan hales, who is pushing polygamy. It's not hard to see that even don gets a little bias, and assumes that this is proof. The more deep these "sources" go about proof of polygamy, the more they have to jump to conclusions, and try to assume something The absence if proof isn't proof at all, and the fact that the scribe wouldn't give an account of polygamy from joseph According to polygamy deniers, many in the 12 were practicing polygamy behind Joseph's back, in Missouri and kirkland. So the scribes claim about it popping it up in Missouri only supports the deniers claims Sorry, Brad, love your stuff normally, and no hard feelings Kwaku, thanks for seeing this as well

Don is just a don man

I mean a guy that was so bitter for 10 years and after research came back. Just goes to show. The thing that's always sad to see when someone does go is the need to create a RU-vid channel and sell their former religion to make money to convince others to go to. Lucky for such, it's not denial of the Holy Spirit, an unpardonable sin, apparently you have to be an Apostle to be eligible for that, maybe even a prophet. Who knows. But a guy that's that bitter, who comes back? And he's an information machine

100% this

Completely agree. Ward radio has by far the most interesting and entertaining LDS content on RU-vid, and second place isn’t even close.

​@NeoMahi 3 Nephi 29:7 states that saying there can be no miracle and doing it for money is like being a son of perdition for which there is no mercy. You don't have to be a higher up to meet those qualifications. If your like John Dehlin making 250k per year off of other people's doubts you are trapped, there is no backing out.

@@jefferydraper5987 bro JD cannot become a son of perdition. Don’t give him that much credit. He clearly has never received that much light and knowledge.

That is a very good point. I never thought of that. It isn’t polygamy in the sense that most people would understand it.

It's interesting to me that the church usually avoids the term polygamy and instead uses plural marriage. I personally think in the mind of Joseph Smith and other church leaders back then and even now there was definitely a doctrinal difference between the world's polygamy and the practice of plural marriage that God commanded and the early saints practiced.

This is exactly what I think Joseph considered it, because Emma rejected polygamy, so he left it as a saving ordinance for the eternities, in his case...but how can one prove that? if Brigham then did practice is as marital relationships? don't know

I agree with your assessment. I have often felt that Joseph only had spiritual wives but that he lead the brethren to practice it. It makes sense to me that the one who re-introduced it wouldn't practice it.

Joseph denied practicing spiritual wifery not plural marriage. You will find noting about spiritual wifery in Doctrine and Covenants 132.

It's a doozy! Don tells about his upcoming book and the research he's done. Totally unseen. Totally new stuff. It's amazing.

I thought the same thing. I love you guys and your channel, but that was a bit raunchy. Might want to clean it up just a bit next time.

They were making fun of the way she is portrayed by anti-Mormons.

The image fits "dirty...filthy....nasty"

@@krismurphy7711 Geeze. Dude, life is too short for you to waste it on hate. Love your enemies, forgive them, be happy.

That's just crazy!!

.ioi9

.ioi9 j

That’s interesting.

😊

I personally know family members that went to prison or court for rape. I know them and I know the women pretty well. And my conclusion on all cases is they were all lies. That doesn’t mean rape doesn’t happen. But I think many people underestimate how many women lie about it and ruin men’s lives with false accusations.

I think it is important to remember that Fanny never claims anything. When asked she would say she had nothing to say, even to her own brother. Every detail comes from second and third had hearsay.

Thanks, Ali!

Concur!!

@Alibee102 Thanks, Ali!

Completely agree. Hard for us to judge when we don't have all the details nor know all of God's will. Joseph and Oliver were both great yet imperfect men who sacrificed much for what we have today.

Did they write these experiences in their journals the day it happened or was it many years later?

@@icecreamladydriver1606 most people date their journal entries. You can look them up yourself

Kind of like the Book of Mormon…

not to mention the whole "heavenly mother" thing. That essentially means that mother Mary was a polygamous wife of God. Because Jesus can't be a bastard.

Yea, anything that requires an ounce of research us anathema to the AntiLDSs. They'll go on believing what they want.

He tests faith.

It's more a matter of our own self-righteousness at the root of the doubt. An extreme example is how the Left has no problem with immorality, as long as they're doing it, but go ballistic when they even suspect Trump said the "p" word, or when anyone from the other party is accused of any wrong doing. And on that topic there are many conservatives, not to mention people in the church, who actually want us to believe they are so morally upright that they can't tolerate, nor have ever said in private such words. REALLY???? I would bet my last dollar that every person who lost their mind over Trump's p__y comment has used the word themselves at some point in their lives. But we all like to think we're so clean and pure that we can't follow someone who is a tad less worthy than Jesus Christ. Or that them living a certain way, even though commanded by God - or claiming such - is beneath us, because our own sense of morality must be more correct than anyone else's could possibly be. In other words, we feel we get to decide what is "moral" for God to do, and when someone claims God told them to do something we see as wrong [like Nephi killing Laban] we assert our own opinion of the incident as being unquestionably right, as if we're the final & highest judge of what is moral, because our knowledge and experience is supposedly so extensive, there is nothing and no one who could know more than we do. There's an interesting thing that happens to a civilization in decline, and I think it's why the Nephites could not repent after apostatizing after Christs visit. And you can see it in society today, especially in those who leave the church: And that is, the more compromised our morality becomes, the more certain we are that our sense of right and wrong are iron clad correct, and no one should dare tell us, or even suggest, otherwise. We actually feel MORE certain of our own high moral standards as we yield to immorality. This happens to nearly every person who commits adultery: they soon deny the faith [ as D&C says] and then feel like they are too smart & righteous to "fall for" the church's teachings. Whereas a more genuinely righteous person will have more doubts and humility when it comes to judgement of right and wrong. And such tests have come to the most righteous people. Abraham had to give up his intense opposition to human sacrifice: His own Father had attempted to sacrifice him, and God saved him from the event, yet later commanded him to offer his own son. What a twist, huh? Yet he had the humility to doubt his own opinion, or sense of right & wrong, enough to obey God. But the average person is too sure of themselves to do that. They have a very high opinion of their own sense of right & wrong, and good luck arguing with them. That is why people who sleep around, and see nothing wrong with it, have no problem condemning the church, or Joseph Smith, for supposedly "moral reasons".

What was the understanding at the time of what the word “Salamander” meant? That’s right according to Dallin H Oaks “salamander” also meant a “spirit supposed to live in fire” SMH 🤦🏽‍♂️

It's still not understood. It certainly wasn't polygamy.

Bob - very true!

Wow, that came out of nowhere, and in this subject of sealing/marriage discussion has to do with what? @@jamestrek2570

Thank you! Great username by the way!

Thanks. It's my buisness name 😄

Carthage Jail???

​@@krismurphy7711 God didn't send Joseph to jail, the anti Mormons did. Joseph's mother was given revaluation that he allowed Joseph to be killed so he could rest. He had been tortured in every way possible and had been through enough. Trust me, he didn't marry lookers. I've seen pictures of his "wives" and it seems he wasn't looking to get lucky. You being so full of hatred to make believe what doesn't exist must be exhausting

BINGO!! He wouldn't👌

@@StompMom5 preach it sister! The Prophet was martyred 1844 so Murphy you are saying God didn’t punish him for ten years? Meanwhile giving Joseph more revelations and using him to build the church as we know it? That was a very weak troll you tried to pull.

Yep! I think that about sums it up.

“Fanny didn’t marry Joseph, they just had an affair.” Debunked: It was seen by Joseph and others as a marriage not as adultery." LOL. First off: "plural marriage" a.k.a. polygamy a.k.a. bigamy was illegal and was specifically prohibited by the LDS church's book of Doctrine & Covenants Every one of Smith's 30+ "plural marriages" violated the law of the land and of his own church. Secondly, if that relationship was a legitimate "plural marriage" even according to the Mormon definition of the practice, Joseph wouldn't have been accused of having an illicit affair, and Fanny wouldn't have had to leave Kirtland to escape the scandal. Smith's loyalist Levi Hancock stated that Oliver Cowdery and other church leaders planned to hold a church court to inquire as to the affair, and that Hancock helped Joseph by taking Fanny out of town so that she couldn't testify to the facts. That obviously means that the affair was illicit. On top of that, the "revelation on celestial marriage" mandates that the "first wife" give her consent to her husband to take a "plural wife". Emma Smith obviously did not consent to her husband's cavorting with Fanny in the barn. If she had, Fanny needn't have left Kirtland. That affair only began to be cast as Joseph's first plural marriage by church historians decades after the facts, and those historians only call it a plural marriage because the evidence to support it is so well-documented that calling it anything other than a plural marriage is to admit that Joseph committed adultery.

Please correct me if I am wrong here. What gets really weird, is that in this episode Don is trying to show that this was a marriage not an affair. "seen by Joseph and others as a marriage not as adultery". However, in the recent episode "BOMBSHELL New Discoveries of Nauvoo Polygamy!", he disregards the marriage and doesn't even list her so then he can list the first marriage besides Emma to a woman that was pregnant. He does this so it couldn't be about Sex however, he contradicts himself here because if the first marriage was Fanny then it is? Feels like that he tries to fix one issue by making a bigger issue in the larger scale of everything.

@@Zez88 Broc, sure, I'll explain. I'm actually not trying to fix any issues. I'm trying to understand what happened and what the motivations were. I believe if you listen to the other video again you'll find that I explain that what we have in Nauvoo is the introduction of a new social system. So, why the introduction of that system? If we look at how that system is initiated, on its own terms, it suggests certain motivations behind the system. I'll lay this all-out much more fully in written form.

Agree. Your summary was spot on. Wish they would have summarized it that clearly

@jacobsamuelson3181 Jacob, Google the Mormon polygamy documents website

What's in it for someone who has an affair..they could get caught and be divorced and lose half their house and pension. But when someone's chasing tail they aren't thinking about that and they assume they won't be caught out.

Joseph also married pregnant women

Abraham broke a commandment and lied that Sarah was his sister. He also got revelation to sacrifice his son. If he were so smart and righteous, why wouldn't he just question that revelation? Because, prophets are the only ones who can get revelation to do something outside of the commandments.

I just unsubscribed.

Wow, thank you! You noticed!

​@@americanmanstan2381no worries. I subscribed to cover the loss

I wonder if Cardin's mic is too high? Or if somehow he could compress the volume so you don't have to turn it down when he gets excited and starts yelling into his mic

sounded okay to me.. sorry you couldn't hear to well

meant complex subject

Keeping a secret is concealment. A straightforward public denial is not concealment and especially not when you give your wife and co-president the platform to do the same.

As I indicated, it's complex. Honesty js always the ideal, but there are situations in which public denial serves a greater good of safety and protection, as in the case of Abraham saying Sarah was his sister. Polygamy was such a situation. The Hebrew midwives lied about the birth of their children to protect them from the Pharoah's edict to kill all the firstborn sons. This act caused God to look kindly upon them. (Exodus 1:15-22). God told Samuel to only disclose a partial truth (1 Samuel 16:1-2). Nephi concealed his identity and pretended to be Laban in order to get the brass plates. Joseph concealed the gold plates. Also, read Alma 12:9 about not sharing everything one knows, but to impart only as commanded. The argument is that Joseph disclosed only as permitted by God.

@@lemjwp1756 but actively fighting against it? People were being excommunicated and disfellowshipped over it. General conference held in 1844 made it clear: “Anyone who teaches the damn fool doctrine” would be curt off from the church…”None but a fool teaches such stuff. The devil himself is not such a fool…I wish the elders of Israel to know that it is lawful for a man to have one wife but it is unlawful for a man to have more, and God has NOT commanded ANYONE to have more.”

Bingo. Yes. There are good reasons to keep some things secret. Especially if innocent lives are at stake.

Fanny and Joseph in The Barn was.

Hey Bryant! None of the usual accompaniments of a legal marriage went along with Joseph Smith's polygamous relationship with Fanny Alger.

"Don, I'm interested in how you would describe the difference between an affair and a polygamous relationship." Well, considering that polygamy was against the law of the land and was specifically prohibited by the LDS church's book of Doctrine & Covenants, and Joseph Smith quoted that text in his denial of teaching or practicing polygamy--- ---then maybe that will help you decide whether Smith's relationships with other women were affairs or "plural marriages".

@@randyjordan5521 Good questions. Some factors I would consider are: Were the people involved intending to enter a marriage? Did they view it as a marriage? Was there some sort of ceremony? In two chapters I've submitted for publication in 2024-2025 I'll show that the answer to all these questions is yes.

@@onandagus1 No Mormon "plural marriage," at any time, was ever a legal marriage. No marriage licenses were ever applied for, and none were granted. That is because it is illegal to be married to more than one person. Case in point: When Ann Eliza Webb divorced Brigham Young and sued for alimony, Young's lawyer argued in court that their relationship was merely "an ecclesiastical matter, not a legal one." The judge agreed, and denied Ann alimony. Brigham Young also taught that if a woman wanted to leave her husband for man holding a higher priesthood, she could do so "without a bill of divorcement." Meaning, Mormon polygamy was really just a huge wife-swapping sect, with the highest-ranking leaders getting the most desirable women. That is how Young got 56 "wives." Also, Emma Smith definitely did not see her husband's relationships with other women as real marriages, because Emma threw those women out of her house as soon as she suspected that the ceremonies were more than just "spiritual."

@@randyjordan5521 Randy, that these weren't legal marriages is something everyone agrees on.

I personally have always had great respect for Emma. She suffered SO MUCH!!! Can anyone blame her for not wanting to share bed space with her husband. Those weren't biblical times so it was very unheard of and she felt she had been cheated on. I would have seen it that way too, that's just natural. I'm still guessing he was never with them physically because he respected his real wife.

SO JOSEPH SAYS....AGAIN.

SHE WAS CHEATED ON. SHE WAS LIED TO. SHE WAS DECEIVED...by her adulterous, philandering, false prophet "husband." @@StompMom5

"I think a discussion on how long Joseph fought against the revelation of his practice of plural marriage would be very appropriate." LOL. Yeah, Joseph fought so hard against implementing polygamy that he only took somewhere between 33 and 48 plural wives in about six years. Why, if he hadn't fought so hard against it, he might have run that number of wimmens into triple digits! This was published by Smith's former close aide, Joseph H. Jackson, shortly before Smith's death: As I have mentioned the subject of spiritual wives, I will in this place, give the reader some idea of the system. The doctrine is called the "spirit of Elijah," and is kept a profound secret from the people at large, and is only permitted to be known to those, to whom it is given to know the "fullness of the kingdom," in other words, the choice spirits who surround Joe, and aid in carrying his secret measures. The doctrine is found on the 3d Chapter of Hosea, -- several passages from the writings of Solomon and David, and the passage "whatsoever ye bind on Earth shall be bound in Heaven." From these scripture passages, (with which I am not sufficiently familiar to quote) aided by revelation from Joe, as respects their meaning and construction, the doctrine is derived that there is no harm in a man having more wives than one, provided his extra wives are married to him spiritually. A spiritual wife is a woman, who by revelation is bound up to a man, in body parts and passions, both for this life and for all eternity; whereas the union of a carnal wife and her husband ceases at death. Whenever the scripture forbids a man from taking to himself more wives than one, Joe made it refer to carnal and not spiritual wives; and would frequently quote the writings of David and Solomon to prove his position. Having an explanation of the doctrine, let us see the application. Joe had in his employ certain old women, called "Mothers in Israel," such as Mrs. Tailor, old Madam Durfee, and old Madam Sessions, in whom the people have great confidence, but in fact, they are the most depraved hypocrits on Earth. If Joe wishes to make a spiritual wife of a certain young lady, he would send one of these women to her. The old women, would tell the young lady, that she had had a vision, in which it was revealed to her that she was to be sealed up to Joe, (or his friend as the case might be) as a spiritual wife, to be his in time and eternity. This would astonish the young innocent, but scripture would soon be resorted to, to prove the correctness of the doctrine, and that it was proper in the sight of the Lord. Soon after this Joe would appear, and tell the lady that the Lord had revealed to him that Mrs. so & so, had had a vision concerning her, and had been to see her. Not suspecting any collusion the young lady would be astonished, and being strong in the faith, she could have no doubt but that Joe spoke by authority of God, He would then ply his arguments, and with the utmost sanctity speak "in the name of the Lord" and say that at such a time, and at such a place it had been revealed to him that she should be his or his friend's, in time and eternity. If she objected he would quote his scripture and his revelations, and thus by playing on her superstitious credulity, and artfully at the same time inflaming her passions he seldom failed of his object. Being once successful, he held the fear of exposure over her as a rod to prevent rebellion from his allegiance. When, as happened in the cases of Miss Martha Brotherton and Miss Nancy Rigdon, his overtures were rejected with disdain and exposure threatened he would set a hundred hell hounds on them, to destroy their reputations. This was a specimen of the mode and manner of Joe in carrying his vile measures of seduction. To the truth of what I have here said, there are hundreds who can testify, and I have no doubt would do it, if they could be protected from the revenge of the hellish clan, which still exists in Nauvoo. The extent to which this abomination was carried may be imagined from the fact that Joe Smith boasted to me, that he in this manner from the commencement of his career had seduced 400 women.

Absolutely correct. What an amazing woman. She suffered so much further cause. She was always true to Joseph.

Spoken like someone who knows absolutely nothing about this topic. I suggest that you read Richard van Wagoner's "Mormon Polygamy: A History" or Todd Compton's "In Sacred Loneliness: The Plural Wives Of Joseph Smith".

@@randyjordan5521 I'm only quoting Eliza's own life sketch. These history writers rewrite history to their own agendas. They grab a partial story from one person and stick it to some other peice of false info and then draw conclusions. The men in that council room for Oliver's excommunicate, which included my husband great great grandfather, did not know about plural marriage. Just because it says Joseph told them about the girl's business it doesnt equal plural marriage. That's reading into it more than what is there. Maybe Fanny had a girlish crush on Joseph maybe she came on to him. Theres some reason she got out of town fast. And her living with the Webbs, that came from Eliza Webb the 19th wife of Brigham Young, but really the 50th I guess. She ran all over the place with her stories but she wasnt even born until after Joseph died. She never met any of them. If you had to prove it in court, you couldn't. All the info is late second and third hand. These historians should be ashamed of themselves.

@@NancyBrown-xw8hg Again---Eliza R. Snow is only ONE of NUMEROUS sources of info about the Fanny Alger affair. Those multiple sources are the very reason that credible historians list Fanny as Joseph's first plural wife. That is how historians work: they piece together various sources to tell the complete story of incidents. The men in that council did not know about "plural marriage" because no such thing existed at that time. The incident was nothing more than the skirt-chasing Joseph Smith getting frisky with a 16 year old servant girl in a barn, and getting caught. That is exactly why Oliver Cowdery called it a "dirty, nasty, filthy scrape". If you believe that the 16 year old Fanny "came on to" Joseph, you are really demonstrating the level of your naivete. Are you not aware that Smith plural married three other girls who were younger than Fanny? Are you not aware that Lucinda Morgan Harris told Sarah Pratt that she had been Smith's "mistress" since 1838, which was just a couple of years after the Fanny incident? The Fanny affair was the reason why Oliver Cowdery inserted the "Article on Marriage" into the 1835 D&C---BECAUSE "this church of Christ has been reproached with the crime of fornication, and polygamy." Cowdery didn't come up with that out of the blue and for no reason. He was well aware of Joseph's tryst with Fanny. That is the very reason he and other church leaders placed Fanny in an upper room of the temple while they sought out Joseph to confront him. And that is why Levi Hancock took Fanny out of town, to keep her from testifying about the affair. That is why Fanny left the church and married a non-Mormon just months later. And that is why one of the charges against Cowdery in his own later church court was that he had accused Smith of adultery. After Smith got rid of Cowdery, and moved to Nauvoo, he "plural married" more than 30 other women before his death. So your attempt to deny his affair with one girl, Fanny, is laughably naive.

That would obviously still be polygamy.

And they were just reading scripture alone in the barn, with Emma sending her away after

@@redfightblueit’s not “obviously” polygamy in the sense of what people normally think of about polygamy.

Certainly, this seemed to apply to many of his relationships. Hard to say if that was the case here.

If you are sealed to someone, it needs to in a type of relationship, like wife, mother, daughter.

The Cope is strong! The Envy! Don Bradley don't got no time for weak haters!

@@WARDRADIO You swing and miss all of the time. I love Don and have had positive feelings towards him for years since interacting with him on the old MD&D board. I am also much larger and stronger than you. And have no envy and am coping with nothing. Dangman's notes absolutely show that Don was wrong when he said "full stop", Joseph didn't tell his parents about the vision. The notes also point out logical problems and historical inconsistencies with Don's inferences. Is that not the challenge put forth in your own show? Why then insult someone who brings you the results of the challenge?

nailed it :)

Problem is, all of those claims of receiving priesthood authority from divine beings were invented AFTER Joseph published his book and founded his church.

I doubt you’d go for it with a 14 year old.

Hilarious but you are probably spot on

Agree. Joseph Smith wasn't given a handbook.

Utah is the true Garden of Eden.

Plural Marriage Wedding?

@@krismurphy7711 Yes, there is one dude in a tux and four women in white gowns. This will be quite the honeymoon let me tell you!!!! Dump the whole 'I hate Mormons thing'

I don't know how you can come here and not feel how much God loves this place. He set it apart for his one true Church. They were kicked out of the United States while being shot at by cannons. That is as low as a people can get. But not only did they survive, they flourished and built one of the coolest places in the whole world. Even when the Army came to destroy them God sent a blizzard to protect them. Seagulls to defend their crops. Water when they needed it, sunshine when they needed it. We certainly are a blessed people.

@amandasimon5914 - Amanda, while there is argument over this, there are a number of sources indicating that in some of those marriages there was sexuality.

It's not clear. Some want to believe That he did, And someone to believe that he didn't. The fact is we don't know. But if there was sex there must have been mysteriously little of it, Because no children were ever born from it.

Since marriage in general includes sex, why should it be shocking if plural marriage did?

@@onandagus1 Well Im a convert and I definitely did a lot of research before joining. Now I’m a BYU student and married! I definitely know the gospel is true from my personal experiences with God, but plural marriage is something I’m not a huge fan of lol probably like most people today. I understand it during Brigham Young’s time because so many men died and women and children needed homes and people to care for them so they wouldn’t starve. But Joseph Smith having sex with women besides Emma doesn’t sit well with me. It’s hard not to see him as a womanizer in that case.

@amandasimon5914 Understood! Have you watched the next episode yet? It addresses the issue of sexuality in polygamy-- and demonstrates that Joseph's motives in it could not have been sexual.

Bingo!

Operative Word? "Cardon" Cardon is an actor...entertainer...his schtick is to be the bombastic loud mouthed interrupting fool that you see. You know what I'm saying?

A fool? Coming from Kris Murphy, that's a heckuva thing to say.

@@krismurphy7711 this is cardon… lol. I’ll take the comment :)

@@krismurphy7711 I meant “compliment”.

This was a matter of life and death. It’s easy to sit here in 2023 in an air conditioned home watching Disney plus while stuffing our fat mouths with junk food claiming lying about plural marriage was wrong and cowardly. Joseph knew openly practice it would result in more Saints being murdered. It’s the correct choice in the circumstances.

He was a pedophile

Are you related to Max Alger from Parowan, that just passed away? We the Stucki’s were good friends with them and my dad built a home near them.

I think that the thumbnail implies that Katy Perry was a very good looking woman lying in a pile of hay.

No, Cardon's. After his wife, of course

@@randyjordan5521 damn, who’d a thought?

Thank you Silver Eagle!

Interesting question. At a first Google search, it's hard to say yes. Jesus overlooks it and doesn't condemn it, in terms of how it's practiced according to Jewish law. But we could also keep in mind that whether or not it was practiced in early Christianity with clear examples, the dispensation of the fullness of times as talked about in the New Testament, includes all former authorized practices and would thus preclude the necessity of scriptural reference in the New Testament.

Considering that one of the charges against Oliver Cowdery in his 1838 church court was that he had accused Joseph Smith of committing adultery, then his words "dirty, nasty, filthy scrape" obviously referred to his tryst with Fanny Alger. I doubt that Cowdery was talking about Smith falling in the mud and getting his clothes dirty.

Is that in the comtext of the 1800s use of the word? Vernacular changes over time

I think they have done this, or will soon. Polygamy was very strange. Yes, and I'm sure there are some situations where people took advantage of the situation, but from the documentation I've read it was nearly all consensual, and divorce was allowed if they weren't happy. It was not Fl DS polygamy. I am a descendant of a Second wife. So it's really hard for me to say that polygamy wasn't inspired.

He didn't say that. He said "scrape."

@@onandagus1 so he was excom for no reason.

@@onandagus1 He said is was a "dirty, filthy, nasty scrape (affair crossed out)" but come on why would Joseph have sex with a 14 year old when he was in his 30's, that would be so gross, even if he claimed to marry her. He just wouldn't do it, no guy would.

There were multiple reasons for it. One of them was for FALSELY insinuating guilt of adultery.

@@Maryel_R_R_Palmer So it was dirty and filthy and nasty and kinda like an affair, but not an affair, but rather like a scrape, whatever than means, but you are SURE it didn't include sex even though there are written testimonies that it did?!?!?

YES!!!!!!!!!!!! If God is going to let his Prophet off on Adultery with a Young Girl Joseph had power and control over.....WE ALL ARE IN THE CLEAR!!! GO AND SIN ALL THE MORE!!!!!

Regardless, whatever Joseph Smith did or didn't do is Joseph Smith's problem. I am only responsible for what I do and what I know. Anyway, good comment.

But the difference between those Biblical characters and what Joseph Smith did is that Smith claimed that his misdeeds were the product of a "revelation from God."

If it was a revelation from God, it would be just and holy.

It obviously wasn't. The Church in 1890 strongly denounced it. And since the Beginnings of The Rumors about it, IT HAS DAMAGED THE CHURCH...AS IT IS RIGHT NOW in 2023!! Do you really think Jesus is that dumb...to put in place an unnecessary policy, against the Lat in Illinois, that would hinder HIS CHURCH FOREVER???@@fightingfortruth9806

The sealing to Emma is a huge problem, and it occurs during Hyrum's second marriage which also presents huge problems for polygamy deniers, because the need to seal fits Joseph practicing polygamy.

We need to cut these guys some slack. Their lives were crazy and they are just trying to keep God's commandments without a handbook nor a cozy office to ponder in. I agree he probably felt like he was already eternally committed to Emma. He probably corrected all thec sealings in Nauvoo. Or maybe not. Again I give them a lot of grace on this.

As Joe talked to god …… right

Theft would be a dirty nasty scrape also. Thanks! Living with someone and stealing from them would be bad, especially back then.

No. You only go deep enough till it somewhat justifies JS. Good one though… dirty nasty filthy BUSINESS. LOL

That would make just as much sense for what happened after as an affair in today's terms.

The fact that Joseph is still being attacked after nearly two years ... defines how deep they have gone.... it is now being exposed for what it was... the researchers finding the truth aren't paid by the church..... try their research..@@jamestrek2570

It wasn't used only regarding business issues. Webster said it was a word of very "general signification" - it could be used to apply to anything. Also, Oliver didn't use this word at all. His nephew his replaced his actual word with the word "affair." So the word affair is irrelevant to what he meant. Also, many early sources say Joseph had a relationship with Fanny; literally NONE say she stole from him.

Oliver is being very careful with his language here. scrape is not the same thing as affair. And there is a reason this word was chosen over the original word affair. Oliver doesn't know what happened, but because he is angry with Joseph, he is insinuating that something happened between them, that may or may not be sexual in nature, and perhaps not even related to Polygamy at all. Oliver is not a reliable witness in this case.

@@SethKellerArt "dirty, nasty, filthy" --->Of course, nothing in moronism means what it says at face value. If you study the primary original historic artifacts it is clear no one is a reliable witness. Everyone is making statements, recanting statements, then re-stating the statements, being excommunicated, then re-communicated. It ALL stinks to high heaven. DC132 commands polygamy to "sow seed", thus the many pieces of sexual evidence is in context with Joseph Smith's own command (as demonic as it was/is). He had at least 40 wives, many of whom he DID have sex with. Jospeh LIED. Turn to the REAL Jesus in the Gospel of John!

Looks like a swing and a miss to me. Ive seen you guys posting this quote for months now. It's enough to get my attention, but why did he say it one time and one time only? If it was some huge thing that bothered him so much then why didn't he come out and say what it was? Why so vague? And why only one time? And where is the letter today? Did Mark Hoffman write it or perhaps one of his friends? Has a documents examiner looked at it?

@@wes2176 AAH, the guy who refuses to look at orginal historic artifacts, but has questions? HINT: follow the money.

This is from Don Bradley's comments earlier on Wheat and Tares about Fanny Alger, which I will post here: "So I could read some of the letters, but I wanted to be really sure. I had Chris [Smith] go look at it and he was able to read most of the word. Then we were able to get detailed images from the Huntington Library that Brian Hales has reproduced that show definitively what the word was. The original word is not affair. The word is scrape. You know S C R A P E, scrape. So if you look at what these words meant at the time, you can actually figure out what Oliver was originally saying and why his nephew changed it. So a scrape, according to the 1828 Webster’s, so just 10 years before Oliver’s letter was [written, the word scrape meant] a perplexity, a distress. It’s like a way of saying somebody got into a jam. They were in a scrape. So, we’re talking about Joseph and Fanny Alger having gotten themselves into this jam and they need to get out of it. However, Webster indicates that this is, in his words, a low word. So this is actually not a really polite word. It’s sort of like slang. So Oliver’s nephew writes what Oliver had originally said and then he’s like, “I’m not going to leave this slang in there. This is not a great way to speak, to preserve this history.” So he just finds another word to write over it. He writes the word affair. We look at the word affair, and that word triggers all kinds of meanings. GT: We think sex. Don: We think sex. I’d invite listeners to like explore this for yourself. Go on to Google Books or some other database of 19th century texts and look at all the uses you can find of the word affair around this time, early to mid 19th century. Then look at later uses like late 19th century, 20th century. The connotation of a romantic affair, from just the word affair does not appear until around the end of the 19th century and it doesn’t come to mean pretty much talking about people having sex outside of marriage until even later than that. The word affair, actually, at the time, is a very general word rather than a very specific word. I’m trying to remember his wording there, but Webster defines affair and he actually says a word, a very broad word, a very general and indefinite signification. It’s just a really super broad word. Basically, as Webster defines it, the word just means anything that people do. It’s like using the word thing, right? Joseph and Fanny Alger had this dirty, nasty, filthy thing. There’s something that happened. Now, Oliver is pretty clear that it’s dirty, nasty and filthy. He’s very much against it. However, if you look at Oliver Cowdery’s known views on polygamy, he’s against it. He doesn’t think it’s a clean thing. He thinks it’s a filthy thing. So there’s nothing in Oliver’s wording that would preclude him referring to polygamy there, just referring to it in a very negative way. He says.. GT: He would normally think it was negative no matter what. Don: Yeah. Joseph and Fanny had a dirty, nasty, filthy scrape. Or, they had a dirty, nasty, filthy thing going on between them. What was that thing? Sure, maybe it’s adultery here. Or maybe it’s illicit polygamy as far as Oliver is concerned. GT: So Oliver wouldn’t have made the distinction between polygamy and adultery. Is that what you’re saying? Don: Not necessarily. So we know that even when Oliver returns to the Church in the late 1840s, people are telling him about polygamy. He’s having a hard time believing it. He says, “I can’t imagine.” This shows a little naivety here when you hear this. But he says, “I can’t imagine that Brigham would condone such a thing.” {Chuckling} GT: So it sounds like Eliza [R. Snow] believed that the relationship with Fanny and Joseph was a marriage. Don: Yes."

It was a matter of life and death. Publicly denying saved Saints from being murdered. It’s pretty simple.

@@michaelhutchings6602 I highly doubt that. Brigham Young and apostles started living polygamy more openly and having children in late 1844. In Nauvoo. Two years before they left. Why weren't they murdered? Strung up? Most people say that Carthage was a result of destroying the Expositor printing press and declaring martial law in Nauvoo.

@@michaelhutchings6602 disagree. You have to take that position because the historical record doesn’t support your position. What evidence do you have? None. I believe Joseph and Emma, and whatever BY implemented we will find out one day.

@@Heartsinmelodyto imply this is to say our beliefs are wrong. i’m gonna go with michael. to publicly acknowledge plural marriage meant death. what do you think the nauvoo expositor was about? antis trying to “expose” our teachings on exaltation and celestial marriage. all love brother

@@mongomaddy I believe your premise is flawed.

Oliver's letter clearly accuses *Joseph* of wrong doing in the incident. And we have several other documents that indicate a relationship he had with Fanny, including the minutes of Oliver's excommunication trial. So, no, accusing Fanny of stealing from the Smith's explains absolutely nothing.

So you think that Fanny stole something, and Joseph took her in the barn all alone to give her a spanking?

All incorrect. Emma continued to deny throughout her life. Not only when she got old. See Relief Society minutes and the Voice of Innocence. Carefully worded denials is especially far from the truth. General conference minutes in 1844 make that clear and so do his own responses against such accusations. Nauvoo Stake high council records also demonstrate that men were disfellowshipped for polygamy. You can either believe he was telling the truth or was a luring hypocrite. There’s no way around it really given all the contemporary primary sources available.

Emma's denial is why Brigham hated her so bitterly. He knew that she knew. He knew she was lying.

@@WARDRADIO He knew she was lying or she knew she didn’t follow what was instructed of him clearly and publicly in General Conference? Emma isn’t the one who was proven to be wrong on so many things (slavery, racism, Adam-God doctrine, etc.). It seems logical to not presume such a person is credible against another person who has been consistent with their story.

@@WARDRADIO First of all, no one knows why Brigham Young hated Emma. You could be right. Or..... It could be that he hated her because she didn't go along with his takeover of the Church. It could also be that he knew that she knew that JS never practiced polygamy and that she wouldn't roll over. BY didn't deal with opposition well. Ask, lets see, pretty much EVERY apostle that served under him post-nauvoo.

@@bobbyshiffler80 or.. BY was upset by her not coming with the saints, taking the JS Translation with her, and supporting the setting up of an apostate church.. I mean, some things to be cross about. But.. and I know, this is crazy, maybe people aren't 2-dimensional.. BY would often speak very harshly in public and be much gentler when not on stage, and yes, he could even get things wrong (also, saying he was wrong about slavery and so therefore is wrong about other stuff is bogus.. that's like saying everyone at that time is wrong about everything because they were wrong about something.. nope). He could be wrong about slavery (because that was the culture and norm), wrong about Adam-God (which is went back and forth on and was really just an opinion - shocker - people have opinions!!) but still be right about other things, even if he is a little harsh. We really do have a problem that people don't engage in critical thinking, seeing things in context or trying to fair instead of promoting either anti-Mormon or weird JS never practiced polygamy agendas. Also, the overwhelming evidence from testimonies shows he did.. to say otherwise is really, really choosing to believe falsehoods based on very little data, and data that has been skewed out of context.

It is amazing the stories we spin when we try to make polygamy fit. Kwaku nailed it at 39:22. Some pretty heavy assumption to make.

Young women have a flirty innocence to the ways of things and I can see an older mancrush on Joseph also. This is s intriguing! If she made a pass at Joseph with indecency involved, that would be dirty rotten also, but, the other way around with Joseph flirting more than Emma was comfortable with would also fit. If she or he were inappropriate with each other, the meeting notes would probably be missing either way. Restorationists in the area were strong believers in multiple wives, and some probably joined the church. If Brigham inspired the practice or Joseph, it fit the narrative used in BOM to build up Gods kingdom and to take care of widows etc. stay with us Kwaku! Back then women wanted a man who could take care of them and many may have seen the cesspool of Warsaw men and willingly chose to be a multi-wife participant to a man of God. Men are not so innocent in there hormonal enticings either, even men of God have to be vigilant.

@@silvereagle1717 I mean Joseph Smith was a looker. One other parallel is the Elvis Presley story. Many women claim to have been his paramour and denied most of them, but there's some strange circumstantial evidence that said he was lying, and other evidence that keeps him clean. So that option has to be open to us.

@@PeterBrownscouts I think I see that with a certain Presidential candidate in todays climate with accusations from women to destroy a man. That parallel is now very intriguing. There are women who will spin that tale today. Why not back then? Good point.

Where in the book of Mormon does it say that God uses polygamy to build up his kingdom or take care of widows?

The Age of Joseph Smith's GIRL brides is a hang up for anyone with morals...Christian beliefs...and common sense. Can you say Jim Jones? David Koresh?

The fact that Joseph Smith also plural married two 14 year old girls in the 1840s should be even more disturbing to you. Not to mention the fact that he also plural married at least eleven women who were married to other men at the time. And not to mention the fact that several of those women testified that they had sex with Smith as well as their legal husbands. And not to mention the fact that polygamy was against the law of the land and was specifically prohibited by the LDS church's book of Doctrine & Covenants. And not to mention the fact that polygamy was the prime cause of Joseph's death. But other than that, there was nothing negative whatsoever about Joseph's plural marriage practice!

@rossm2102 Oh wow, Ross, that is high praise indeed! I am flattered and tremendously pleased to hear that I must be doing this very right!

@@onandagus1 Pride

@@EdmundPatak Gratitude for a kind compliment

@@onandagus1 might want to edit out the “I must be doing something right” part while leaving the expressions of gratitude in. Just a suggestion.

@@EdmundPatak If you wrote a post here that you were given very positive feedback on, wouldn't you think maybe you'd done it right? I'm grateful for feedback that suggests that. But since when is it your responsibility to point out pride in random YT commenters rather than looking for it in yourself and your own presumptuousness?