I agree to a certain extent, but I would clarify that on balance, OPTIMAL draught conditions are better than optimal can/bottle conditions; and sub-optimal draught conditions can be worse than many packaged conditions for the (dirty lines) reasons you articulated.
I think I clarified that. Optimal draft, in the taproom, proper glassware, location, destination, it all is what we love about the best beers we've ever had. Outside of bottle shares. However, those draft conditions are rare in scope of all draft beer served out in the wild. Breweries/craft beer bars are the exception.
@@DarwinsBeerReviews That’s fair! I just think that the majority of sub-national craft beer enthusiasts are mostly enjoying local at the brewery or decent bar. The small craft brewery isn’t really getting placements in dive bars. Anecdotally, my step dad is a lifelong Coors Light drinker and will always get the aluminum bottle or can if it’s available vs. draught. I think that says something pretty damning about chain restaurants and macro beer. Conversely, craft brewers are kind of dumping their beer on chain retail, where it is stored warm and is a shadow of itself vs. on draught at anywhere decent.
There is considerably less oxygen pick-up in kegged beer, and kegs are also almost always stored cool until served. In that sense draft beer is clearly superior. As for dirty draft lines, having worked in the industry for 30 years or so, that's an argument that's hard to argue against.
1000% agree. I’ve been saying this a ton recently in my circles. Especially with delicate styles like IPAs or lagers. I almost don’t enjoy ordering an IPA on draft when I know it’s going to be better (and cheaper) out of a fresh can. I’ve often been disappointed at “craft beer bars” where the draft tastes muddled but when I buy the 4-pack, the can is exploding with flavor.
Assuming the draft system is in good condition and clean, if you still prefer can over draft, then you just got used to the oxidized flavor and think that is how it supposse to be. The canning line your normal tall boy sticker can hazy breweries use won't be able to deliver the consisten low DO packages like kegging could. That is just Physics.
I mean, you're not wrong! But I honestly feel like breweries that can and release on draught the same beer on the same day: the can and draught version tastes different, where I almost always prefer on tap.
My theory - and I'm not in the industry, so I don't know ... is that when breweries fill cans, there is some exposure to oxygen in the process, which alters the flavor vs a keg which is sealed.
@@DarwinsBeerReviews most domestic canning line filled under open atmosphere, DO of a good keg vs a good can is 20 vs 40, how is there any ideal situation??
If you visit a brewery like Tree House or Fat Heads that do not cut any corners draft is better in my opinion. Founders has a sign behind the bar that says when the draft lines were cleaned which i thought was cool assuming it is accurate but the beer tasted pretty fresh. Clean lines are pretty important. Some of the smaller breweries struggle with inconsistent cans imo. Cheers 🍻
It’s still surprising to me that Czech style “tankeries,” where you tap the beer directly from the tank it’s fermented in still isn’t a trend in the US. I’m sure some NE IPAs would be mind blowing served that way like unfiltered Pilsner Urquell.
@@jimbrennan1181 If it’s the tank the beer is being fermented in. A good example is the unfiltered Pilsner Urquell you can only get in the Czech Republic. They do have some distribution to specialized taprooms outside the brewery called “tankovnas” that have tanks for them but to maintain the same quality as tapping it straight from the tank at the brewery it has to be consumed within 48- hrs to 5 days depending on storage since the beer is unpasteurized. That’s why you can only get this version of Pilsner Urquell in the Czech Republic.
I agree with everything, ASSUMING… that the brewery has a proper canning line. Let’s not forget how many breweries, even established breweries, are using old canning lines that are not equal to the cans that come from a regional/national brand like Sierra Nevada, Surly, Revolution, ect. At one time, these big breweries had cashflow to invest in a truly excellent canning line. I’m sure you’d agree there are probably a LOT of breweries with less than great canning lines. Anyone who’s been around awhile knows that seaming issues aren’t uncommon, and low fills don’t always get identified by QC Edit: thought of another big factor. Cold storage. All draft beer is stored cold 100% of the time. Most cans sit on retail shelves, at 72°, oxidizing at a significantly faster rate than the kegs stored in the walk in coolee
^ this. Also, most small craft breweries don't have DO meters that can measure canned/bottled dissolved oxygen levels. There is also a concept of surface area to volume ratio: the smaller the package, the more surface area to volume there is, and thus the more impact oxygen in package can have. It's easier to limit total package oxygen (TPO) in kegs versus cans/bottles, and most craft breweries have no idea how much oxygen is going into their canned/bottled beer. That said, Darwin is right, so many bars stink at cleaning beer lines. I try to get to know my local bartenders/bar owners so that I know who does and doesn't clean their lines. Most breweries clean their lines, in my experience.
I find bad canning to be a miniscule problem compared to draft issues. We have the large regional breweries locked on quality. And for the small guys, so many are using mobile canning lines, which do a pretty good job, DO meters and all.
All things being equal, I'd much prefer a Wild East Czech pils from their lukr tap than out of a can, even if purchased at their brewery, just to use an example.
To be fair, the packaged equivalent con is that you don't necessarily know if it sat out in the heat for days on end... but that could also apply to kegs. I get into fights with the bar manager at the restaurant I work at all the time because he insists that it's fine to leave kegs of IPAs out at room temp because "that's how it's always been done"
That's not ideal, but do you guys really have that much keg inventory that IPA kegs sit in room temp that long...? If so, that sounds like a terrible ordering/rotating product system. Ignore freshness of beer. That's just bad ordering.
When going to some of my favorite craft breweries like Tree House, Trillium, Hill Farmstead and a bunch others.. I prefer the draft version of many of their beer because I find the carbonation/body is softer. Many times, the pale ales and IPAs can be more prickly in the can. But I agree with you that many craft breweries find it too costly to maintain their lines properly and it CAN affect flavor quality and consistency.
Thank you Even in our taproom, folks will turn away from canned beer vs draft beer when given the choice 95% of the time. Even when I tell them it’s all made of the same batch on the same day and it was made 200ft away.
does this apply to Guinness? Im pretty sure they have specific heads and the way that Nitrogen is used on the pourable cans and the tap heads is different
Agreed that most breweries and craft beer bars are going to have clean lines. The two advantages of kegs vs bottles/cans is typically they are slightly better at limiting oxidation just due to the packaging process and you don’t have to worry about a keg ever being warm stored (99% of the time). But like you said, it’s all a moot point if the draft line is dirty!
That's interesting that draft beer isn't necessarily more fresh than canned beer. I always assumed that is the case. Makes sense why that isn't the case, though.
@@DarwinsBeerReviews Well, if the packaging lines (keg vs. bottle/cans) is better for one format as regards TPO that could play a role in declaring one format being a 'winner'.
If you’re interested Vinnie Cilurzo of Russian River does a whole 1hr talk on the affects of oxygen on beer on Craft Beer and Brewing’s RU-vid channel. The TLDR is that even a tiny amount of o2 can make a huge difference. Even something as small as the surface area of a can lid vs. a bottle cap can make a noticeable difference. Kegging is 100% going to produce fresher beer. To Darwin’s point about draft lines, good service is certainly important, but at least here in NYC I find draft craft beer is typically far superior to canned beer. Macro on the other hand, is more of a toss up.
@@michaelepstein7172 I live in the Philly area and I can report that the places I get draft beer (e.g., brewery taprooms, craft beer bars, etc.) also properly maintain draft lines. It still would be interesting to know the typical TPO values for keg vs. can/bottle packaging. I have watched podcasts with Vinnie (and other beer industry folks) but I have yet to hear the specific as regards the TPO values of the formats. Cheers!
@@jackhorzempa3962TPO with respect to kegged beer is a bit of a misnomer because the ‘P’ refers to packaging, as in cans and bottles. Also, the amount of O2 ingress on a properly purged keg is effectively zero. Any dissolved oxygen in the beer from brewing steps before its final serving vessel will be present in the final product whether it is can/bottle/keg/swimming pool.
Draft beer is not pasteurized. Makes a big difference in the taste of the beer. I agree if the lines are not cleaned , will be a worst product. But the product is completely different from draft to can/bottle.
Generally I agree and this is why I only ever get draft art places Uber focused on beer or brewery taprooms. Any other place I order packaged beer. I’ve had bad draft line experiences, one time even at a craft beer bar in Mineola - I think you might know the one. I would argue that draft beer has a higher ceiling. If your going to get draft pours from a place Uber focused on serving beer the right way - we’re talking torst, fox farm, hill farmstead, churchkey - the experience is elevated vs package imo. This could be for a few reasons. Serving temp is one. Also don’t some draft systems blend a little nitro into CO2 to create a carbonation, head, presentation, and maybe mouthfeel that you can’t get out of carbed cans or bottles. I remember hearing on a podcast that the Veil used this blended gas method in their taproom. Not sure how common it is. But then you throw in full on nitro taps and lukr faucets, and casks and it makes for a special experience you can’t get in packaged beer. The draft beers at hill farmstead are really special. Maybe it’s just the ambiance but something about their draft system is so dialed in. The head on those can’t be replicated from pouring out of a can.
True, draft faucets are a game changer for some pours that you can get pouring out of a can/bottle. Then again, you're right. This is for the craft specific places where you should trust draft beer. That's not the case for 99% of places that serve draft beer.
@@DarwinsBeerReviewsyep, you’re right. Everything I’m saying does only apply to the 1% of establishments. Thankfully being knowledgeable about beer helps us navigate these murky waters. If I’m going to spend my hard earned cash on beer it’s going to be at a reputable place from a reputable brewery. If I happen to find myself at a place I don’t trust I’m following the packaged rule for sure. Or just not drinking at all. Thankfully the NYC market has lots of top notch stuff and places, and I’m well versed enough to avoid the vast sea of mediocrity and lack of care for proper beer service.
Isn’t drat beer normally fresher to start then packaged beer sifting on the shelf I think most popular bars in NY stay with the cleaning lines because of competition. If it’s a good beer bar the glassware should be right.
The reason keg beer tastes better is that the beer is stored in 50 liters, where a can is usually 12 ounces and will oxidize at a much faster rate than the keg.
I always heard that draft is better than packaged. Now, I will say that Bearded Iris in Nashville definitely had better cans than draft...it was ridiculous....like is this the same beer?
Absolutely! A balanced CO2 system is ideal for draft beer service. So there you go, another point of service where draft beer can be inferior to properly carb packaged beer.
Completely agree. There are some bars in my area who work extremely hard to maintain freshness and offer such amazing proper pours. Elsewhere I have learned to always ask for a sample before committing to a full pour. I’d say 85% of the time, at any bar, I tend to find old kegs or some line issues. Most of the time I can visually see it won’t be good as it comes out. Unfortunately, craft beer is still the minority of what the general public really wants. And even in beer centric bars, most service industry folks just don’t care about beer or freshnesses. It’s sort of beers Achilles heel. Cocktails and seltzers will continue to be the popular option.
