DEEP Conversation with the China Guitar Sceptic (TGU19) 

Absolutely does. Watching these instruments evolve over 30-ish years and you're absolutely correct.

chris W 20 years ago you could Only get get Special IIs and Squiers for $200. Granted they came with an amp,tuner,cables,case and institutional DVDs. But still left a lot to be desired...

There were $200 guitars 20 years ago?

Without accounting for inflation too

This is true for 20 years ago, but not 60 years and beyond. A lot of valid points made in this video that I support and that deserve a continued discussion going forward. On the same coin however, they speak as if the past didn't exist haha. A skilled craftsman is a skilled craftsman, regardless of geographical location (this notion is finally starting to be generally accepted). Nobody is at 100% all of the time, and this is especially true for people in a highly competitive job market, toiling to meet a quota and/or performing a repetitive task all day long. In instances such as these, quality control, streamlined production, and advanced modern manufacturing technologies are pertinent to ensure the success and proper caliber of the finished product. All of which were common issues that the majority of "overseas" factories faced until 5 or so years ago. It's not that these factories couldn't make top tier instruments. The concern was mainly "can they consistently produce quality high tolerance instruments?" and "Is the one I ordered a stud or a dud?". The internet, as well as connectivity in general, has also been a major factor in ushering in the age of high quality/ low cost instruments. You can no longer rest solely on the laurels of an accomplished name brand... if you make and sell a shit product, everyone is just a click away from knowing that it's shit. Likewise, this environment has made it possible for start-ups with terrible names (i.e. Harley Benton) to thrive by producing instruments high value/low cost instruments, sans the frivolity of well established and archaic "household name" companies.

What happened?

Mike passed away with cancer some time ago @@daveyboyd784

Hold on. What happened to Mike??

​@@daveyboyd784he died.

@@daveyboyd784 passed away from ALS/MND

Thanks!

I like your channel. I don't work on tube ps or amps in general but I'm really digging it when you are diagnosing issues abd fixing them as well. I've learnt a bit from just watching you. By the things you say and way you say them... your a smart guy and the channel is great as well. I learned about NUTUBE technology from you. And watched you check them out . And work On a Vox lil head. SAME Lil head my buddy bought a year ago. And his Lil VOX just took a shit in the exact same way that the one on your show took a shit. Thank you fir all thr enlightenment. I appreciate it man. Take care. MAX is awesome too. Helluva guy. Love this show too.

Thanks!

hold on now lil dog, Max has a nice babe

It's because it takes years to develop skills and factory quality. When Japan first started making consumer electronics after WWII, they were often literally made in people's homes. My now-deceased business partner worked with a Japanese man to build TVs, transistor radios and later home stereos. They taught one block of people to assemble tuner circuits, another to frequency converters, another the chassis, etc. Naturally quality was terrible, but the price was very low because those workers required very little money to buy clothes, food etc. As the Japanese economy improved, factories were built, people trained to work in a production environment. As time went on they moved from producing cheap crap to high quality products. When the cost of doing business and end product prices went up in Japan, production moved to other countries like China, India and others and the same process repeated minus the home-built part. I spent years building a semiconductor design and manufacturing company with facilities in the U.S., Europe and Asia. I started visiting China in the first decade after Nixon opened up trade with China. At the time, 95% of all Chinese were peasants. We built their factories, we trained them etc... People remember the time in which the product was low-quality and low-price, and don't necessarily stay up with the advancements as they're made. It's consumer ignorance more than anything else edit: there is one other point to be made though, over the years, we allowed our manufacturing to be moved to low-cost countries and in so doing lost millions of high-paying factory jobs...in effect, we traded our good jobs for cheap crap from other countries. When you think "I'm saving a ton of money on a guitar", you don't think about the depressed wages here in the U.S. because those jobs are now gone. You saved money on that guitar at the expense of having better pay. Was it a good trade? Not for everyone. I made out like a bandit...did you?

No Andy it's not weird, let me put it this way, if you buy a new Chinese made electronic you buy it from a local store right? If you have an issue what do you do? You take it back to that store. If you buy a Chinese guitar where do you buy that from? Sometimes you can buy them from local places but most times it will be online. Now, you have an issue with that guitar, where do you take it? If my Gibson or Fender gives me an issue I can take it 30 minutes up the road to Guitar Center - see the difference? Plus a lot of people have an issue with buying items from companies that are selling their products so cheap because they pay their labor so cheap. Me personally, I will buy a guitar if I like it, period. I do however prefer to only buy from places that will deal directly with me if I have an issue.

Its the fakes that are the issue that are coming out of China - the ones that say Gibson or PRS. Its those that have given Chinese guitars a bad reputation but a company like Eastman is great.

@@BAMozzy69 - yes but those guitars are not what they are talking about. The discussion is and has been more about the legitimate manufacturers just making copies of popular styles but putting their own names on them. The Chibsons are ones that NOBODY likes.

@@RickMcCargar You make some good points. It should be noted that the US wreaked more destruction on Japan than any other industrial nation has ever experienced. We killed between 700,000 and one million Japanese civilians, most of who were incinerated. 180,000 were killed by the 2 atomic bombs. ALL heavy industry was destroyed. On the day that the surrender was signed on the Missouri, LeMay flew over 800 B-29 bombers over Tokyo. Such was the American war machine. With a lot of post-war US help, the Japanese people rolled up their sleeves and rebuilt their industrial base from nothing to amazing in a couple of decades. I can remember when Nikon challenged Leica for the 35 mm market. People were blown away by the Japanese quality. Now, 'Made in Japan' means top quality. China cannot do anything like that because of the onerous government control of the population, and the government sponsored cheating and scamming culture that prevails there today.

In the red corner we have China Guitar Sceptic; in the blue corner we have PRS Sceptic. Seconds out. Ding ! Ding !

Dave Navarro spent all their QC budget on drugs.

Most of my band worked for PRS, and a lot of my friends still do. I remember Pauls very first shop in Annapolis where I'm from. I can tell that it's very rare to have gotten a PRS Wirth that many issues. Especially a core. I believe you, but it's rare. Your guitar was obviously built on a Saturday by my friends after one of my Friday night parties.

@@tonysarrio8940 Ahhhh so you’re the culprit! Nah I’m kidding 😂 it’s highly possible but it’s all good, they fixed the issue and sent another one that was perfect. I still have it, I’ve had it for a decade so thank your friends for a fantastic guitar!

Americans want to be orientalists so it would be benefits to have something unique on the market but simple and classic.

Great video Max. The idea of "American exceptionalism" has infiltrated the guitar market, and influences buyers. That's why American guitars are so overpriced. And why people will pay a premium price for them. The Chinese guitar makers can build inexpensive guitars because the cost of living is much less. It's not "slave labor" as some uneducated people insist on stating here on RU-vid.

One of them is the future of chins.

Who cares about the future, right? Just the almighty dollar matters. Who cares if us Americans sold out our kids future to save 20 bucks. It's a guitar, and twenty bucks which is way more important than the future of the only nation on earth that believes in liberty.

i love max and you your chanlles are great but you know here latly major comp are doing same as china cheap crap but here they charge ya higher so yes you get what ya pay for unless ya live in us then ya get payed for name ty love you guys

Seems like you have the same view of your fellow Americans that you claim they have of everyone else. As an American I sure am glad you're only speaking for yourself and not the rest of us. What a narrow minded shitty view of your own people :)

bobowrath sovine and unless you're native American you're family came from somewhere else. America is a global nation. Our goverment has no issue borrowing Chinese money....

Lol well said

bobowrath sovine if the US didn’t tax the 💩 out of me I could afford a MIA guitar. My wallet not my conscience determines where I buy from. Stop ripping me off America.

@Victor Buford he was just joking....calm down

That's the problem

Thanks for your service in both law enforcement and military 👍, I've never tried a Chibson but for me the feel of the guitar is more important than the sound off the bat because I can always change the pick ups but that's just me and my son. What style of music do you like or play?

@@1thess523 all kinds but my passion is 80's Power Ballads , yes , Pink Floyd, Ozzy, although me and my buddies were mainly hard rock back then hard rock was Judas priest, I was the only one who could sing Ballads but we worked so hard and saved all our money for studio time to make a demo I took a city bus from Mesa Az to Phx AZ and they were passed out from doing acid for a week and have not picked up a guitar since or wrote a song until my wife now she put the fire in me , your video helped me as well so I thank you and your knowledge blew me away I follow you and another guy who teaches piano/keyboards another passion of mine, Paul Rogers, Head East , Billy Thorpe stuff like that, as far as the chibson I can't afford to pay $3,000.00 for the real deal so would I be happy with the sound and thank you for responding your awesome I'm constantly trying to catch-up on your vids keep it going I'm looking forward to the classical guitarist rock on brother

@@tobyhicks155 try searching kramer evh or frankenstrat on aliexpress just cost around 190+ if youre lucky free shipping

Sam Gowman personal protective equipment. Gloves, masks proper respiratory protection, stuff to protect against hazardous chemicals and such

China is actually one of the leading countries for environmental change and progress towards a cleaner environment. They’re ranked in the top 3 for most progressive over the last 5 years and have 1/4 of the pollution per person than America. Don’t know where your info’s coming from, but most of its just bollocks.

@@AAllinsonNN that’s nonsense.

@@lisamontgomery6426 facts don’t care about your opinion. No one asked for it, but hopefully you feel better for giving it (:

They are highly untrustworthy! For them it's all about getting the goods produced and out of the door. If you don't have your own QC team doing very rigorous checks there, they'll send you crap thats not specified -- as we found out with medical equipment, that our stupid management produced in china. The first 10.000 units we inspected 25% of them. Of that 25% around 30% did not meet spec! And we even found units that had different resistor and capacitor values! When we asked why the hell that was! They said: "We ran out of components. So we took the nearest value, it will work no worries!" It's a good thing that was a video call, because I would've fucking punched his glasses through his skull! It's ILLEGAL to change your registered designs of medical products. They are approved and registered as such, so changing the specs is not allowed without actually re-registering and approving your new design. But they don't care because it's out of their factory on time. So we ended up sending 3 people doing 24 hour shifts of QC. Kicking Chinese management for everything that went wrong. They hated us for it. Every time it was: "but it will work. it is fine! that doesn't matter". And that's electronics, which they are really good at! And after that contract we moved the production to Poland. Now that's quality! Proactive people, they do exactly what is asked and don't deviate. They call if supply is stuck and don't "wing it".

Thanks Buffalo!

Yeah my guitar is made in Indonesia. It's a great guitar!

Ibanez.

Indonesian guitars are far superior than the Chinese ones!

@@konstantingeorgiev7521 Not sure about that. Look at Eastman, Shijie guitars. The Squier classic vibe series. These are top quality guitars. Both countries can make guitars to any price point.

My Japanese,Indonesian, Chinese and made in Mexico guitars are definitely good enough for me. I know a lot of the American made are great quality, but I can't justify paying 5 to 10 times more for a guitar that in a lot of cases looks or plays no better than foreign made. And a lot of people don't understand that the wage and the cost of living can be way lower in these other countries. I imagine the skilled builders and luthiers here are paid a very high wage, as they should be. The cost of living is also very high in most of the US. Then you also have the American manufacturers that pay lower wages, produce a lot of guitars and mark them up to make ridiculous profits. Sure that $5,000 Martin or Taylor sound and look great....but so do the Japanese and Chinese Yamahas and some other brands for a forth or fifth the price.

Glad you enjoyed it!

I must say, the best guitars I have EVER owned were Korean imports. A PRS Se. And a few others. Excellent. Neck and neck with Japanese. I would not throw money away on USA.

I have played quite a few Korean made guitars that played well. China on the other hand steals, then makes... TOTAL JUNK !

As far as Asian factories aside from Korea, one of the great things about the Chinese ripping everything off is that once one of the factories (say, in Chen Zhen) makes an improvement, or an innovation, all the other factories rip it off (or maybe they share the info?), and everyone's quality improves.

Korean guitars and Indonesian makers and Chinese are fricking Fantastic 🐸

I don't think anyone lumps in Korean or Japanese made items with Chinese. We don't need a speech.

If been a conservative for 35 years. I don't know what the hell you are talking about. China is a communist nation. They don't care either. They like being told how to live and being communists. We don't have any say who makes what where. China charges a tariff if we sell something there. 30 percent on automibiles,for one. And we were not charging them anything for 50 years. Well that's not fair trade. Now do you understand? They were ripping M us off for 50+ years. Now we want to charge a tariff and everyone's crying..... insane. Stupid.

Bullshit

Excellent! Thanks for the report.

Incidentally, I did replace the bridge pickup in my Stagg M350, but it was then that I found that The original pickup is wax-potted. I asked Stagg if all their pickups were waxed, and they confirmed this. I think that's pretty cool. I also just adore that guitar - it's made of Alder, Maple, and has a rosewood fingerboard - and it plays great! It also has THE nicest Sunburst finish I've ever enjoyed.

indo prs arent as good as korea

They are both frawless? You are easily amused.

Really interesting perspective, I really appreciate that.

@Logan Howlett yes I did mr. Obvious There's a chance Max may not know he passed and he spent some time with him in a quality video Mike was a good fucking guy that's all I'm going to say to you.

@Logan Howlett Lots of older videos featuring Mike have begun popping up on my feed, too.

Can you suggest a good acoustic for beginners under $350 Are Mitchels any good ?

@@johnhowe4079 cant speak for their acoustics, but their electrics are fantastic!!!. cost me 270$ but plays like a 1000$+ guitar and sounds like at least a 700$ guitar. Even the floyd rose on it always stays in tune after terrible abuse.

I agree wholeheartedly. People are stupid lemmings in a shit show to be better than the next guy ... I'm glad I just don't care

@@thefuneralparade Back when I was gigging heavily in the 1980s and 1990s, those were the ones who went back to their day-jobs pretty quick: the ones trying to out-cool everyone else and always had to have specific brands of gear/instruments.

LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL Yes $175 will get you the quality of an Ernie Ball Music Man, or an American PRS. HILARIOUS !!!

@@markconnell7723 And here's a question for you, smartass. How did Eddie Van Halen change rock guitar with a guitar he put together consisting of a 'factory second' body, a second hand neck, and parts he scrounged up? And he did it all for less than $250. His guitar would be considered junk by someone like you. Think about it next time you pick up that EVH guitar. You're a living contradiction. The cognitive dissonance must make your head spin.

@Danny Lee: Learning Guitar with Rocksmith. R&D is about the future, not just the past. Would Gibson have developed the Les Paul back in the '50's if they knew that somebody like China would steal their ideas and make cheaper versions, so they couldn't make money? Will Gibson do any more R&D to improve the Les Paul or develop a new guitar design in the future? They're probably far less likely to do so unless countries like China are reigned in.

@@audiophileman7047 ah but you underestimate the hubris of executives - authentic Gibson, anyone?

Well any Japanese made Ibanez will blow a PRS out of the field...I assure u that... actually Japanese guitars pretty much are the best....and what perfection are u talking....in a toss between perfection at 4000 dollars and almost perfect if not perfect at 500 or 700 dollars...what will u choose...and to be honest any guitar over 800 is perfect...and Harley Benton deliver perfection at a sub 500 price tag...now that's progress....you just sound like a guitar snob

@@vedicmetalhead1029 Not a snob, just pointing out the economics, but it doesn't sound like you care about people in the U.S. and U.K. being employed. Sounds like you only care about getting the cheapest guitar you can find regardless of the social and health costs that are required to get that cheap price. PRS guitars are excellent guitars and not only have a great Strat and Les Paul hybrid sound, but they're also made to be durable; play like butter; and be easier to maintain as designed and built by luthier Paul Reed Smith. We haven't even talked about the fabulous custom shop and boutique guitars. What's good for me may not be good for a lot of people. I certainly won't condemn someone who can't afford an expensive guitar. What guitar to buy is best determined by the buyer to best meet the players needs. Buy what's in your budget and look for the best quality that you can for the money. It's up to you and your conscience to buy what you want.

@@nonserviam4813 i was talking about price to performance ratio

The Squier affinity up until 2015 (or further) was still made out of alder, which isn't the case anymore. They are now poplar. Poplar was used on cheaper bullets...even agathis.

@WAFFEN COLLIDER Yeah it's gotten a lot worse over the last few years, but it's always been a bit skewed. I don't think it was too bad around the late 90's as the dollar was nearly 1:1. But take into account now it's about 1.4:1, new 10% import taxes, around $100 for shipping and then if a retailer marks it up (which in variably they do by a nice percentage) your $100 cheap guitar becomes a $300 guitar.