Here are some important fact that most people do not know. The 6 Corporations, also known as the organization of Jehovah's Witnesses, created their own customized translation of the “Bible” in 1950, which included the New Testament. The King James Version (KJV) they were using before caused them many problems, so they had to stop using the KJV and create their own customized Bible, which includes significant alterations to support their core teachings. Over the years, they created many New Revised Editions, one of which was the first complete New World Translation (NWT) that included both the Old and New Testaments in 1961. Since then, newer revised editions have been released. Here are the remaining revised editions in order: 1970, 1971, 1981, 1984, and 2013, all of which included more and more and more drastic alterations, such as verces removed, words altered, new words added, punctuation moved, verses restructured, and parts of chapters removed in order to support their false doctrines.
You're exactly right about that! I actually made a video documenting some of their most egregious errors in the New World Translation and I'll link it below. Check it out if you're interested! ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-2SIfhiquBtU.html
bro... you video series debunking JW is absolute fire ! I don't know if you are doing all this research on your own or if other people are helping you, but huge props to you and your crew. I'm impressed by the quality of this information and I am sure that many victims of the watch tower will be saved from their evil organization as a result of your work. Let's pray that they leave the cult and come go to Jesus Christ ! It is also good for non JW, regualr Christian or luke warm Christians to study this. It helps us reinforce our belief that Jesus is Lord, and he is UNCREATED, he his the Alpha and the Omega, 1rst born of the creation (with your new understanding reveiled in this video, AMEN), He's been given all the authority and the name above not all other names, but above ALL NAMES. PRAISE THE LORD, YHWH, this King of kings. Blessed be the El Gibbor, Father Eternal, yeeeesss let the Word shine bright. Powerful stuff reveilled in these scriptures. The Word became flesh. The Eternal became Flesh to save us. Alleluia
Thank you so much! I'm glad you've been enjoying the content as much as I've enjoyed making it! I agree we should definitely be praying for God to do a mighty work among the JW's and bring them to a knowledge of the truth! As far as my channel goes, from a technical standpoint, it's just me. But I've learned a TON from people who have been involved in this type of ministry far longer than I have. People and ministries like Light over Dark Ministries, Melissa Dougherty, Mike Winger, Ron Rhodes, Watchman Fellowship, Alpha & Omega Ministries, and many others. Their work has really helped me a lot in my own research and I highly recommend you check them out if you haven't already! I hope you continue to enjoy the rest of the series! I've got several more videos planned related to JW's and then, Lord willing, I'll move onto Mormonism either late this year or early next year. Your prayers are deeply appreciated!
@@theologywithsethhey would u be able to do one with SDA, they are very confusing or maybe manipulative. But there’s a guy that believes Jesus is god, but an angel as well n they call him Michael. N they believe Michael isn’t created as well…… like what
Hi @jonesjones4277! I could definitely see myself doing a series on SDA at some point. I've touched on them in the past here and there, but most notably in my introductory video on cults. I'll link it below if you're interested! ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-lbPFXyoLS74.html
Ready to Harvest already did a long one hour video explaining Adventist beliefs from their own literature. It's clear from the video that Adventist are different but not a cult.
Michael the arch angel is a huge problem for JW. They believe the heresy that Jesus is some angel. SDA on the other hand, do not believe that nonsense. SDA say divine, savior, and Lord Jesus is the divine son of God and head over the Angels and as such is Michael the head of the Angels. There's no heresy here adding "Leader of Angels" to Jesus's long list of divine titles.
Great video! Regarding Proverbs 8, when the JW's get to verses 29-30 they quote "When he set a decree for the sea That its waters should not pass beyond his order, When he established the foundations of the earth, Then I was beside him as a master worker." It appears that Wisdom was with whoever laid the foundations of the earth. Ask them who laid the foundations of the earth? They will say Jehovah or God. Then ask them to read Hebrews 1:10. In this passage, Jehovah is speaking about Jesus when He says "And: “At the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the works of your hands" clearly indicating that Jesus is the one who laid the foundations of the earth. So therefore, Wisdom was with Jesus as He laid the foundations of the earth...
@@rickyoung360 Hebrews 1:10-12 quotes Psalm 102:25-27 and applies it to Jesus simply because the Son is the one THROUGH WHOM God performed the creative works there described by the psalmist. It is also interesting that at the end of Hebrews 1:5, the writer quotes from 2 Samuel 7:14. Those words were about Solomon, but the writer of Hebrews applies them to Christ also. Of course, no one should conclude that Solomon and Jesus are the same. Jesus is “greater than Solomon” and carries out a work foreshadowed by Solomon, according to Luke 11:31.
@@revilotnek1610 I love the fact that the bible interprets itself, if we let it. We don't need to mangle meanings of words because we appreciate there is absolutely nothing wrong with Jesus being Jehovah's first creation. It's epic. But more than that, we can appreciate the level of love for us required on both Jehovah, and Jesus part in the sending of Jesus to pay the ransom price of our redemption. The vast love, justice and wisdom of the ransom payment is lost in the babylonish teaching of a triune god. Exactly the goal of the god of this age. Deceit and confusion. 2cor4:3, Rev12:9. Tragic. But soon to be rectified. Matt6:9.
Most truly I say to you, a slave is not greater than his master, nor is one who is sent greater than the one who sent him.q John 13:16 . Jesus was SENT BY GOD - and called as SERVANT OF GOD. Acts 4:27 WHO IS OVER ALL? Ephesians 4:6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. GOD and FATHER is OVER/ABOVE ALL and that "All" includes the SON so they are NOT EQUAL THE BIBLE teaches that Jesus was MADE As Lord and Christ and as Son (ACTS 2:36, Prov 8, HEB 1:5), CREATED/PRODUCED/INSTALLED (Prov 8) , COME INTO BEING/MADE (Mat 21:42 - egeneto) and GIVEN LIFE by the Father - John 5:26 and it uses TODAY (Heb 1:5), and uses future tenses and is a prophecy in Isa 9:6 (Isa 9:6, - WILL BE) . If you are called MADE AND CREATED AND GIVEN LIFE, and NEVER CALLED in the BIBLE as Creator or Maker , then you are A CREATION. ALL FROM THE BIBLE From the Lord was this (this is referring to the chief cornerstone who is Jesus) , the word WAS is egeneto (made or came into being) - Matthew 21:42 and the exact Greek word used in John 1:3 - MADE, egeneto (came into being) - JESUS WAS MADE/CAME INTO BEING FROM THE FATHER , yes, Jesus was MADE/CREATED!, See also Acts 2:36, Heb 1:5, 1 john 5 Jesus in FACT mentioned the FATHER IS GREATER than I am. JOhn 14:28. BEFORE he WAS SENT, the Father is ALSO GREATER than Jesus. Most truly I say to you, a slave is not greater than his master, nor is one who is sent greater than the one who sent him.q John 13:16 . Jesus was SENT BY GOD - and called as SERVANT OF GOD. Acts 4:27 AFTER his resurrection the FATHER IS STILL GREATER than Jesus - WHO IS OVER ALL? Ephesians 4:6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. GOD and FATHER is OVER/ABOVE ALL and that "All" includes the SON so they are NOT EQUAL
I love the work you put into these videos! Beautiful and powerful verses worth sharing again! Get wisdom; get insight; do not forget, and do not turn away from the words of my mouth. - Proverbs 4:5 Buy truth, and do not sell it; buy wisdom, instruction, and understanding. - Proverbs 23:23 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever you had formed the earth and the world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God. - Psalm 90:2 Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay each one for what he has done...He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming soon.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus! - Revelation 22:12, 20
it’s very sad that no one concentrates on the real pillars of JW theology. The main foundation of the JW theology is Matthew 24,45 - the true and discreet slave. For Christians Jesus is the main person but they don’t understand that for JWs he simply isn’t so important. Please concentrate on the governing body and the true and discreet slave as the spiritual foundation of this cult - says a 45 years old ex JW of the third generation and new born Christian.
Bullsh**! JW’s put every importance on Jesus and talk about him consistently! The faithful and discreet slave is rarely mentioned. And you know it! I’m not a witness anymore but I used to be and know what you are saying is Bull! You just want to be noticed…
The evilslave believes the master is delaying. Jude 1:3,4 Have the faithful slave ever believed the master is delaying. Acts 1:8 Everyone was Jesus Witnesses until 1931 Acts 1:6 Revelation 3:12 Jehovah’s Witnesses. YHVH Yehovah Jehovah God Psalm 83:18 Charles Taze Russell 1881 Zion's Watchtower Tract Society John 21:9 When they came ashore, they saw there a charcoal fire with fish lying on it and bread. 10 Jesus said to them: “Bring some of the fish you just now caught.” 11 So Simon Peter went on board and hauled the net ashore full of big fish, 153 of them. 1881 + 153 = 2034 The 3rd Seal of Revelation Do not harm the oil and the wine!
Hi friend! Thank you for sharing that with me. This video is part of a larger series I'm making and the first couple of videos were aimed at demonstrating how untrustworthy the Watchtower leaders are. I documented several false prophecies as well as several places where they deliberately tampered with the translation of the Bible. If there's a more obvious smoking gun than that, I may need you to share it with me! However, I think there is still great value in being able to intelligently refute JW teaching using the Bible, even if it's on a subject that isn't paramount to them. Especially if the subject happens to be paramount *to God* , which the nature of Christ most certainly is. I do hope you'll check out my other videos and let me know if you have any topics you'd like me to consider covering in the future. Also, praise God that He delivered you out of the Watchtower!
@@montanaguy51 I was born in, in 1959 and I know for a fact that Jesus Christ ALWAYS takes a back seat to the Governing Body. So I know your comment is BS. BTW, why are you no longer a witness? Couldn't take any more of their BS?
Apart from having origins. And dying (dieing(?)). Both of which are impossible for an eternal being. But I agree, he is eternal going forward... Rom6:9"knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death no more hath dominion over him." Etenal means undying.
Hi @FrankLee-gq8yc! I addressed both of those concerns in my last video and since you commented, I know you watched it. This means you should already know that Christ having an origin and dying is no challenge to Trinitarianism whatsoever, and is a vital part of classic Christian theology. If you need to re-watch it, I'll leave a link below for your convenience. Cheers! ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-QDCNDaagox0.html
@@theologywithseth yep. That's the one I was asking you the question about the number of gods. You say in that video there is only one and the rest are false. I do not read that in the bible. I read of many gods.. notably the angels are called elohim at ps8:5. And Paul said: (1cor8:5) "For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or on earth; as there are gods many, and lords many; " ... isn't he saying there are many? Yes, some are "so called" , ie false... but also there are many, even in heaven. That is the point... there is only one who requires worship, exclusively. The Father. Joh4. Just as Paul goes on to say: 6 "yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we unto him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we through him." We worship the Father, Exclusively. Just as Jesus told us to do. That is not "mainstream" , I know, but surely the narrow road of matt7 is not mainstream?
@@theologywithseth Hi, I am listening to it again. You say lots of things that you don't back up from the scriptures, no offense. "it wasn't his divine nature that died, it was his human nature"... Where do you get this from? If Jesus was still alive in some god form while he was dead as a human, what was God talking about when he promised not to leave him in the grave? Ps16:10 "For thou wilt not leave my soul to Sheol; Neither wilt thou suffer thy holy one to see corruption." If Jesus wasn't fully dead, why was God promising to remember him and not leave him dead? The idea he carried on somehow reminds me of Eden, "you positively will not die". Jesus died and was in sheol/ the grave/ hell. He would still be there if God didn't raise him from there.
You are absolutely right when you pointed to early church fathers for their interpretation of the Scripture or what they believed what the Apostles taught and believed. Amen to that.
Thanks for your presentation. I've recently purchased a 'Journaling bible'. That's a bible with extra-wide margins for writing notes. I've devoted this bible exclusively for reasoning with JW's should they come to my door. I watch videos like this one and write notes that I've gleaned beside the verses in question. Just an idea.
The simple fact that wisdom cannot be produced or had no beginning undoubtedly refers to Jesus as a created being. The apostle Paul says that Christ represents “the power of God and the wisdom of God” (1 Cor 1:24,30) (1 Cor 2:7,8) (Pro 8:1,10) If not Jesus is who or what is the text referring to? Being that wisdom has always existed?
I just go off the nicene Creed, that created applies to everything that was created through Jesus. And because Jesus was not created that way and was begotten directly from the father he is in a different category. Thus begotten not made.
Jesus is not Michael the arcangel, that's for sure. But the whole video tries to do the same thing as JW do: convince of a doctrine that is not stated in any scripture at all. Trinity is not a scriptural doctrine. It's just an idea that a group of christians tried to push as the ONLY true doctrine among a lot of groups of cristians who where teaching different things about Jesus. The first defense of the doctrine of the Trinity was by Tertullian, who was born around 150-160 AD, explicitly "defined" the Trinity as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and defended his theology against Praxeas, although he noted that the majority of the believers in his day found issue with this doctrine ("The simple, indeed, (I will not call them unwise and unlearned,) who always constitute the majority of believers, are startled at the dispensation (of the Three in One), on the ground that their very rule of faith withdraws them from the world’s plurality of gods to the one only true God" (Tertullian).). It took almost 300 years after Jesus (325 EC) to come to that conclusion. It was an attempt to "racionalize" the relation between the Father and the Son. Even the doesn't talk much about the Holy Spirit which is weird if Trinity was the TRUE doctrine of all times. So, Trinity is just an interpreation SOME christians did in the II-III century so I find quite presumptuous saying this is something every christian needs to believe. In fact, it's literrally in contradicting with so many other scriptures but in this matter everyone must come to his own conclusion. In the salutations of all ten of Paul’s NT letters he identifies God as the Father, distinguishes God from Jesus Christ, and he never mentions the Holy Spirit. Three times the Apostle Paul writes about “the God and Father of our/the Lord Jesus (Christ)” (Romans 15.6; 2 Corinthians 1.3; 11.31; cf. Ephesians 1.17). Finally, the heavenly Jesus is quoted five times saying “My God” (Revelation 3.2, 12; cf. 1.6). For my the scriptures are very clear: John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. John 20:17 Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’” Matthew 24:36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[a] but only the Father. Acts 7:55-56 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ. 1 Corinthians 8:5-6 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. 1 Cor. 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 1 Thimothy 2:5-6 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. Rev. 7:9 And they cried out in a loud voice: “Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.”
Could you explain the first part of Revelation 1:1, in the light of your stating that Jesus is God - "The revelation from Jesus Christ, *which God gave him* to show his servants what must soon take place." I would appreciate your input on this. Thanks in advance.
Hi friend! That's a great question. As a Trinitarian, I believe God exists in three distinct Persons. So in that particular verse, I would understand "God" there to be a reference to God *the Father* . Basically I would interpret the verse to be saying that The Father gave Jesus the revelation. Since they're two distinct Persons, they can communicate and interact with one another. I made a video recently talking more about verses similar to that, and I'll link it below if you're interested! ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-QDCNDaagox0.html
@@theologywithsethI’m sorry, but that’s called ‘adding to the text’. You can’t say that God is triune in essence and then turn around and say arbitrarily “Here God only means one of the persons, and here ‘God’ means Jesus only, and here it’s the Father only when it talks about God”. Taking the Bible and making it fit your doctrine… the hypocrisy is staggering - and then complaining that JWs “added to the Bible” or “altered the text”. Oh if trinitarians were consistent, you would have to say that each time the term “God” is used in the Bible without clarifying the person, you should think that the triune God is meant- that would be consistent. But you cannot - because if you did, your whole doctrine would collapse, because each time one of the persons of the “Godhead” (a term added to the text as well - nowhere to be found in the manuscripts) is ever mentioned, it’s ONLY God the Father. There is no “God the Son” nor a “God the Holy Spirit” in the entire Bible. Neither is there an essence separate from the person of God ever mentioned- and no dual-nature of the Son either. All inventions and additions to the text! In Revelation 1:4,5 Jesus Christ is mentioned separately from “The one who is and who was and who is coming” - the latter being identified as the Alpha and Omega, the Almighty (verse 8). So the one who is and who was and who will come is undeniably God. Now read verse 6 - the heavenly Jesus has a God! So according to Seth, in Revelation 1:1 he unwarrantedly claims that God here really is God “the Father” only (which He is, but God is triune to Seth which it’s why it’s unwarranted), but then totally ignores that this same God “the Father”, is heavenly Jesus’ God in verse 6. So God (the Son) has a God (the Father) above him now - co-equality debunked! If this is not polytheism, I don’t know what is. This is fantastic! Did you also know that Jesus is not once called “God” in the whole Book of Revelation?
Mal 2:10 the ONE GOD is the ONE FATHER, So the GOD who gave Jesus the revelation is the FATHER. Most truly I say to you, a slave is not greater than his master, nor is one who is sent greater than the one who sent him.q John 13:16 . Jesus was SENT BY GOD - and called as SERVANT OF GOD. Acts 4:27 WHO IS OVER ALL? Ephesians 4:6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. GOD and FATHER is OVER/ABOVE ALL and that "All" includes the SON so they are NOT EQUAL THE BIBLE teaches that Jesus was MADE As Lord and Christ and as Son (ACTS 2:36, Prov 8, HEB 1:5), CREATED/PRODUCED/INSTALLED (Prov 8) , COME INTO BEING/MADE (Mat 21:42 - egeneto) and GIVEN LIFE by the Father - John 5:26 and it uses TODAY (Heb 1:5), and uses future tenses and is a prophecy in Isa 9:6 (Isa 9:6, - WILL BE) . If you are called MADE AND CREATED AND GIVEN LIFE, and NEVER CALLED in the BIBLE as Creator or Maker , then you are A CREATION. ALL FROM THE BIBLE From the Lord was this (this is referring to the chief cornerstone who is Jesus) , the word WAS is egeneto (made or came into being) - Matthew 21:42 and the exact Greek word used in John 1:3 - MADE, egeneto (came into being) - JESUS WAS MADE/CAME INTO BEING FROM THE FATHER , yes, Jesus was MADE/CREATED!, See also Acts 2:36, Heb 1:5, 1 john 5 Jesus in FACT mentioned the FATHER IS GREATER than I am. JOhn 14:28. BEFORE he WAS SENT, the Father is ALSO GREATER than Jesus. Most truly I say to you, a slave is not greater than his master, nor is one who is sent greater than the one who sent him.q John 13:16 . Jesus was SENT BY GOD - and called as SERVANT OF GOD. Acts 4:27 AFTER his resurrection the FATHER IS STILL GREATER than Jesus - WHO IS OVER ALL? Ephesians 4:6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. GOD and FATHER is OVER/ABOVE ALL and that "All" includes the SON so they are NOT EQUAL
Greetings Mr. Seth. Firstly, thank you for your videos and the gentleness and grace you show while addressing these issues. Secondly, I see many JWs fight back even on the Isaiah 9:6 passage by saying Jesus is not being called the "Almighty God." As i was looking words up in the interlinear I saw that Almighty amd Mighty are different words in the Hebrew. Mighty (gibbor) seems to refer to strength while Almighty (shadday) seems to indicate fullness and richness of God's grace or bountiful, and the Greek (pantokrator). In bith Greek and Hebrew it appears that when they are used in scripture dont seem to explicitly include the Son. How do we reconcile this? Also, in Isaiah 9:6 one of the names of Jesus will be Eternal Father. I can see how scripture. Clearly shows Jesus is Jehovah, but I think these are good points and im not sure how to address them. Thabk you again.
You're right, El Shaddái is God Almighty, solely used in relation to Jehovah, the Father. El Gibbór is Mighty God/god. Jesus and Jehovah both have this title, Jesus is given the title ("he WILL be called..".). Jehovah as the Almighty is of course a mighty God, the mightiest. The ALmighty. I always struggle with the idea of Jesus being Jehovah as I don't see it in scripture. I see the opposite though, Jehovah speaking TO Jesus. Like this: Ps110:1 ASV "Jehovah saith unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, Until I make thine enemies thy footstool." If Jehovah tells Jesus (David's Lord) to sit at his right hand, how can he be Jesus? Or vice versa?
Hello @tweak04! Jesus is called "El Gibbor" in Isaiah 9:6 and Jehovah's Witnesses make much of the fact that we translate it merely as "mighty God" in our Bibles, as opposed to "Almighty God", which they believe gives them warrant to reduce Jesus to an inferior being. However, even Jehovah Himself is called "El Gibbor" in Isaiah 10:21 and Jeremiah 32:18 yet no one believes this means *He* is an inferior being. This is a strong indication that Jesus is equal to Jehovah, which the New Testament later affirms explicitly in John 5:18 and Philippians 2:6. I'm not aware of any passages that explicitly refer to Jesus as "El Shadday", but that is hardly surprising since Jesus's name is not referred to in the Old Testament much at all. So I wouldn't make much of that point. Jehovah's Witnesses are trained to try and lose people in the minutiae of biblical languages, but a picture is worth a thousand words. Have them paint a picture of Jehovah and no matter what they come up with, I can pretty much guarantee you there will be ample verses in the Bible that paint that exact same picture of Jesus. Blessings!
@@theologywithseth Hi Seth, I appreciate your replies. What are your thoughts on the child being called el gibbór in the future, "he will be called mighty god"? Doesn't this indicate he is not a mighty god at some stage? As for El Shaddái, as above but it makes sense that the one Almighty God is also a mighty God, right? The Almighty boxing champion is at the same time a mighty boxer, correct? But the vice-versa cannot be said. There is only one "ALmighty" among "mighty" ones. Isn't that exactly what Jesus was saying when he referred to his Father as the only true God? He is the one and only El Shaddái, correct?
Not really... I've always just read it as a prophecy about the future. One day people will call Jesus "Mighty God" and indeed we do. It doesn't mean he's not currently a Mighty God at the time the prophecy was given. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the Watchtower agree that Jesus was a Mighty God even in Isaiah's day?
@@theologywithseth Hi there.Yes, I agree it was a prophecy about the future, and yes Jesus was a mighty god before coming to earth. He was in the form of God, but keep in mind he "emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men;" (phil2ASV) 8"and being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, becoming obedient even unto death," He was completely human. The whole point of the ransom was human life for human life. And for his obedience he was exalted upon his return to heaven. 9 "for which very reason God raised him supremely high and granted him the name above every name," Was he not supremely high beforehand? And was his name not already the highest name? Apparently not as you don't get rewarded with what you already have. God did this for Jesus, correct? Many take this as saying Jesus is the Almighty, but I can't see how. The end of the statement reads "to the glory of God the Father." Everything is to the glory of the Father. He is Jehovah (Isa64:8ASV But now, O Jehovah, thou art our Father) Jesus was a mighty god, he became a perfect human, he died, he was raised a mighty god. The second most powerful being in existence. He sits next to the Majesty on high, Become better than the angels. Heb1:1-4 God gifted him a superior name than what he had before descending, do you ponder what that means?
1:30 I’m not a J w and I don’t believe Jesus is just the archangel Michael but, I would argue the archangel Michael is Jesus, or a prophetical character of Jesus, an archetype of Jesus and maybe Jesus himself. My arguments : in the book of Revelation, the archangel Michael is the leader of heaven’s army. If the leader is the commander, the chief of the army, comparing it to Old Testament, he is similar to the Angel of the Lord. Cf story of Joshua or Gideon. The commander of Heaven’s army is Yahweh Sabbaoth. The angel of the Lord is the Lord himself and not just an angel and yet, he’s denominated as an angel, a simple angel and not an archangel but that doesn’t change the fact that the angel of the Lord is the Lord. Another argument, in the book of Daniel, the angel revealing prophecy to Daniel says Michael is the prince of his people, Cf. Daniel 10 But Michael, as a simple angel or archangel can’t be the Prince. The Prince is the son of The King, the prince is the future king. The future king is The Messiah, the Christ, the chosen one. So Michael can’t be anybody but Jesus. Just like Emmanuel in Isaiah is Jesus, Michael in Daniel is Jesus.
Greetings! The problem with this is the Bible, your rule, is a Trinitarian book… History shows us that Jesus didn't leave us a bible, - the apostles didn't tell us which books belong in the bible, - the church fathers never agreed on the 27 books of the NT through the 4th century and ONLY the 27 books, - not only did they not agree but their individual lists of would-be NT canons were GROWING during this time. Therefore, if it wasn't the Catholic/Orthodox church, guided by the Holy Spirit, that compiled the 27 books of the NT in the 4th century, just 65 years AFTER the council of Nicaea which began the Trinitarian doctrine and subsequent councils of Ephesus and Chalcedon, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and preserved these scriptures by laboriously hand copying them over and over throughout the centuries before the invention of the printing press, the “rule of faith” for many, please tell us who did? And if this church no longer exists today, what good is the text which came forth from her if she couldn't sustain herself? Peace!!!
@@srich7503hello there, I’m not sure what is your argument there. The Bible is the problem for trying to connect and interpret passages? It’s a theological book, so interpretation is mandatory. But interpretation need logic and coherence. It isn’t about feelings or it will make no sense. Anyway compilation of the Bible was started by Jewish people. New Testament is seen by Christians as a successor to divine revelation to Jewish people. Jewish people already made a list of most reliable books and it’s by studying and trying to stay faithful to the same logic, scholars, and experts on the scriptures made the selection. It wasn’t decided with chance but with criteria. It follows a logic of “authorship” reliability and theology. You say the problem is the Bible? But its exegesis of the Bible that makes Christian believe. There is a narrative, a theology, a logic linking all the texts. This theology is the foundation of faith. After Jewish canon, Jesus did not left a book but his teachings transmitted by disciples. There are studies showing how apostles, disciples who were direct witnesses are most likely the ones who wrote the gospel. Church fathers selected and councils were not arbitrarily deciding but they chose according to the overall coherence. There are many videos on the subject here on RU-vid. I’m not an expert so my statement might sound confusing, but your argument in my opinion doesn’t justify not trying to make sense of the scriptures.
@@racksityentertainment no. I said, “The problem with this is the Bible, your rule, is a Trinitarian book…” then i asked a question you did not answer…🤷🏽♂
The wisdom in Proverbs 8 is actually personified as a woman which can be seen in the grammar forms of the original Hebrew text, but not in the English translations.
The personification of lady wisdom as a woman can be seen in English: Does not wisdom call? Does not understanding raise her voice? On the heights beside the way, at the crossroads she takes her stand; beside the gates in front of the town, at the entrance of the portals she cries aloud: (Prov. 8:1-3 ESV) Notice, "her voice," "her stand," and "she cries." The problem is that JWs don't know what "personification" is. If they did, they would know a personification is not a person but personal attributes attributed to impersonal things. Lady Wisdom is being contrasted to lady folly (ch 9). The writer is writing as if providing the wise guidance of a father to a son (1:8-10). For this reason, Wisdom and Folly are pictured as two different woman between whom a young man will pursue. People should read the entire book of Proverbs instead of trying to rip verses out of context to use as proof texts. Oh, and when JWs insist that Wisdom is Jesus, ask them who created the things mentioned in 8:26-30-Wisdom or God? They will ignore the question and insist that the Hebrew word Amon, which is _usually_ (not always) translated as "master worker" means that Wisdom had to be assisting God, which it doesn't. My father is a "master worker" and he gives his workers advice or instructions and then goes around to various job sites to observe and ensure that they are doing the work the way they are suppose to. The writer of Proverbs tells people to get Wisdom so that we can image God and bring order out of chaos by listening to Wisdom. Wisdom doesn't do the work for us, she whispers in our ear, as it were, providing us the council to do the right thing. God is pictured as creating the world by means of Wisdom's council. Wisdom watches and rejoices at what God does, just as she watches and rejoices at the things that humans do when we act by her council. In vv. 26-30, God made the earth and established the heavens. In Heb 1:10, we are told that the Son is the one who laid the foundations of the earth and stretched out the heavens... which means the Son is Jehovah God-Jehovah the Son.
Where did you read that - “the one who is and who was and who is coming” calls himself “Alpha and Omega” and according to Revelation 1:4,5, it’s not Jesus. “May you have undeserved kindness and peace from _‘The One who is and who was and who is coming,’_ and from _the seven spirits that are before his throne_ , and from _Jesus Christ, “the Faithful Witness,” “The firstborn from the dead,” and “The Ruler of the kings of the earth”_ Revelation 1:4-5 So here in this verse, of Revelation chapter 1 we are introduced to three characters: 1) The One who is and who was and who is coming, 2) the seven spirits that are before 1)’s throne, and 3) Jesus Christ. Right away we learn in Revelation 1:4-5 that _“The One who is and who was and who is coming”_ *sits upon a throne*. Please keep that in mind. In Rev 1:8, we come across our first use of the title “The Alpha and the Omega”: “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty.” So did you catch that? Of the three characters we have just been introduced to, which of them has told us upfront and right away that HE is the Alpha and the Omega? Yes, it was “The One who is and who was and who is coming”, who is mentioned separate from Jesus Christ.
@cryptogamingz1506 you ok with the ASV? Rev1:8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, saith the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." Is this Jesus speaking? No. Rev1:1The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show unto his servants, even the things which must shortly come to pass: and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John; You don't get given something from God if you are the Almighty God, right?
@@FrankLee-gq8yc yeah sure I am ok with ASV, who is coming then if He is not Jesus? The Bible established that the one coming is Jesus... and before that verse, the Rev. 1:7 tells about Jesus the one is coming, the key point that He is Jesus is the word "the one pierced"
@@cryptogamingz1506 Yip, verse 7 is absolutely speaking of Jesus. What's your thoughts on the many times Jehovah, the Almighty, spoke of "residing" among his peoples, and "coming" to be with his people, yet the scriptures clearly state "no man has seen God at any time"... could it be a figurative "coming and residing"? The nation of Israel didn't physically "see" God as he "dwelt among them", yet he was "dwelling among" them. Here's an example, Ps135:21"Blessed be Jehovah out of Zion, Who dwelleth at Jerusalem. Praise ye Jehovah" Was Jehovah himself dwelling in Jerusalem? We know that his "home" is in the heavens, P11:4Jehovah is in his holy temple; Jehovah, his throne is in heaven; His eyes behold, his eyelids try, the children of men. Have you considered that when God says he is "coming quickly" in Revelation, it is in the same sense? As in, turning his attention to, or dealing to the situation, ie the "Great day of God the Almighty" Rev16:14. Jesus is most definitely "coming", as shown in verse 7, but again, as for God, no one has or can see him, so could he be "coming" in a different sense, as he did in the past? I believe so. What's your thoughts?
@@cryptogamingz1506 Yip, verse 7 is absolutely speaking of Jesus. What's your thoughts on the many times Jehovah, the Almighty, spoke of "residing" among his peoples, and "coming" to be with his people, yet the scriptures clearly state "no man has seen God at any time"... could it be a figurative "coming and residing"? The nation of Israel didn't physically "see" God as he "dwelt among them", yet he was "dwelling among" them. Here's an example, Ps135:21"Blessed be Jehovah out of Zion, Who dwelleth at Jerusalem. Praise ye Jehovah" Was Jehovah himself dwelling in Jerusalem?...
Yeshuah is the embodiment of God almighty so we could see Him and interact with Him since no one can see God himself, how does that work? I have no idea but that’s what makes Him God doesn’t it? Wisdom in Hebrew is Sophia the feminine aspect of the Holy Spirit
1 Timothy 2:5 There is but one Mediator between God and humanity, Yeshua (Jesus) the Messiah, himself human. All Bibles agree, Jesus was a mediator between God and man, was himself a man, and not God.
without modifying the crucial word in John 1:1, Revelation 1:8 (NWT) and the verses before and after that, how can you debunk the idea that Jesus is not God?
@@cryptogamingz1506 Revelation 1:8 is certainly not Jesus speaking! Read the introduction of the main characters of the book of Revelation in Rev 1:4,5. We are introduced to three distinct characters here: 1) The One who is and who was and who is coming, 2) the seven spirits that are before 1)’s throne, and 3) Jesus Christ. Right away we learn in Revelation 1:4-5 that _“The One who is and who was and who is coming”_ *sits upon a throne* . Please keep that in mind - as you see this character again and again across the whole book of Revelation it’s always God the Father! In Rev 1:8, we come across our first use of the title “The Alpha and the Omega”: “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “the One who is and who was and who is coming (Nr 1 above), the Almighty.” So did you catch that? Of the three characters we have just been introduced to, which of them has told us upfront and right away that HE is the Alpha and the Omega? Yes, it was “The One who is and who was and who is coming”, who is mentioned separate and distinct from Jesus Christ. Check for yourself - no NWT needed.
Gs, In vv. 1-7, Jesus is the central figure. John has just finished announcing that Jesus is coming, so A switch to God the Father in v. 8 would be abrupt and is thus improbable. Jesus shares the titles of deity with the Father, and is the one who is identified in the NT as the “I am” of Deu 32:39 (cf. John 8:58). John alludes to Aramaic targum of Deu 32:39 which says, “When the Memra (Word) of the Lord shall reveal itself to redeem his people, he will say to all the nations: ‘See, now, that I am the one who is, was, and I am the one who shall be in the future’” (Targum Pseudo-Jonathan). Here the Word of God (Jesus) speaks as the Targum says, declaring himself to be “the one who is, and who was, and who is still to come.” The case is further strengthened by the fact that Jesus declares himself to be the alpha and omega in Rev 22:13, thus forming a literary inclusio. Furthermore, similar language is used in Rev 1:17 where Jesus declares he is the “first and the last” (cf. Rev 22:13), which is synonymous with “alpha and omega.” Finally, the identification of the speaker in Rev 1:8 is clear enough that even your founder, CT Russell, recognized it is speaking about Jesus and was at pains to explain it away.
He wasn't just created like everything else,He was unique,He was actually birthed out of the Father.Jesus was the number 1 creation, before anything or anyone else.Alpha,the beginning.Thats what it says the Word ( was) God in the pastence.He came out of God and became His own self.
Jesus in his prehuman life as Michael the Arch Angel was the first created angel directly by his Father and God Jehovah.Michael was also known as the Word or as the Spokesman.This is the angel that Jehovah God sent on this Earth to become a perfect human Jesus and to die as a ransom sacrifice for our sins.
Consider how ridiculous the claim about Michael is: 1. Jehovah created Michael the archangel, a demigod who creates everything on behalf of Jehovah (contrary to Isa 44:24 & 45:12). 2. Michael ceases to exist. 3. Jehovah creates the human Jesus (who has no correspondence with Michael. There was no incarnation of Michael, rather, at some point Michael ceased to exist and Jesus was created. So why did Michael have to be annihilated? I do not know, do you? This belief also contradicts the Gospel’s account that Jesus “came down from heaven”). 4. Jesus lives, dies, and ceases to exist. 5. Jesus 2.0 is created (which JWs call resurrection, but is not the same as the Jewish/Christian concept of resurrection). 6. Jesus 2.0 (another human Jesus) hangs out with the disciples for 40 days and then … what? JWs aren’t really sure on this point. 7. Jesus 2.0 ceases to exist somehow and Jesus 3.0 (a spirit creature) begins, who is also called Michael (even though the Bible never makes that connection, and actually shows Michael and Jesus are separate entities; cf. Jude). 8. Heb 2:5 says that God did not put the world to come under the control of angles and then goes on to speak about how Jesus, a human (and God), has been given control of the world to come. Yet, this must be a different Jesus than Jesus/Michael 3.0 because Jesus/Michael 3.0 is an angel. So when does Jesus 4.0 come? This is just one more teaching of JWs that they accept without any semblance of critical thinking and they do so because men in NY tell them to believe it, in the same way they have been told they must believe that Jerusalem was destroyed in 607 BC (instead of 586/7 BC as ALL scholars affirm) and that they must believe that Jesus died on a "torture stake" and not a cross (even though ALL the evidence is on the side of cross).
We don't have to read many books or no books at all just those scriptures in simple clear English A most important matter as who is Jesus God in his wisdom will not need anyone to explain who Jesus is he will make it simple and easy to find and read
Why are you posting multiple posts? Are you just seeking to be a snake in the grass and snap at people walking by, rather than have a conversation with someone who knows their Bible?
How about we let the Lord Jesus himself speak to settle this once and for all. John 6:57 “Just as the living Father sent me and I LIVE BECAUSE OF THE FATHER, so also the one who feeds on me will live because of me.” That Jehovah was truly the Father or Life-Giver to this firstborn Son and, hence, that this Son was actually a creature of God is evident from Jesus’ own statements. He pointed to God as the Source of his life, saying, “I live because of the Father.” According to the context, this meant that his life resulted from or was caused by his Father, even as the gaining of life by dying men would result from their faith in Jesus’ ransom sacrifice.-John 6:56, 57.
Top that with John 5:26 where Jesus said: “For just as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted also to the Son to have life in himself” Life itself is an essential part of God’s eternal essence, but Jesus here says that the Father, who inherently has life in himself, has granted or given it to the Son! That means that the Son did not have life inherently in himself, thus he’s not of the same essence than the Father and this actually proves that the Son must have had a Beginning, and cannot have had an eternal past (because there was a time where he did not have life in himself)!
Jehovah, the Bible God says "do not add or substrut the word of God. YHWH No one has the right to change God's word. The birth of Jesus. On the 8 days circumcised.. Colossians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, Philippians 1:2 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ". Philippians 2:9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,
The Apostolic father’s contemporaries of some apostles should be familiar with apostolic teachings,the trinity being one of them. So, did they teach the trinity doctrine? One of the earliest non- biblical books “the Didache” circa 100 C.E says nothing about equality to support the trinity. Church fathers such as Clement,Ignatius, Polycarp, Hermas and Papias speak of God as a separate eternal, almighty, all knowing being and his son as a lesser subordinate spirit creature whom God created.
Apostolic fathers lived around the first century C.E. Soon after the apologist appeared such as Justin Martyr, Tatian,Athenagoras, Theophilus, and Clement of Alexandria. Did they teach coequal persons or trinity? They also taught the son was a creature.
Ignatius (AD 50-117) in his letter to the Ephesians said, We have also as a Physician the Lord our God, Jesus the Christ, the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. For “the Word was made flesh.” Being incorporeal, He was in the body; being impassible, He was in a passible body; being immortal, He was in a mortal body; being life, He became subject to corruption, that He might free our souls from death and corruption, and heal them, and might restore them to health, when they were diseased with ungodliness and wicked lusts. Now, how could Ignatius and the early church fathers refer to Jesus as "OUR God"?
@@BasicBiblicalTruth Also Ignatius:”The only true God, the unbegotten and unapproachable, the lord of all, the father and begetter of the only begotten son. He has the son saying “the lord created me , the beginning of his ways”, he barely mentions the Holy Spirit as being part of the Trinity doctrine
No, sorry, Ignatius didn't say that. Please do your homework. Second, you didn't answer my question. How could Ignatius and the early church fathers refer to Jesus as "OUR God"?
The trinity was a belief of the Babylonian they worship..but also worship many gods and the trinity was a part of it. Anyway to make story short. COL 1 15-17 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; who is it referring to hear ? Go up to vs13 and 14 there you will see God is referring to his beloved Son.
There are no pre-Christian examples of people worshiping a trinity (one God subsisting in three persons). You can find triads of gods, which is not the same thing as the trinity. Col 1:15-17 shows that the Son is God, the creator and ruler of all things.
Jesus is not an angel, he is a human created by the Almighty as Luke 1:26-35 teaches us. Also, Only the Almighty has inherent immortality and He never dies otherwise that would not be true. 1 Timothy 6:16. So if Jesus died, it is plain that he cannot be the Almighty. Another good verse is James 1:17 that says that the Almighty does not change, and even Jesus said the Almighty is Spirit, therefore, the Almighty cannot become human or an angel otherwise that would mean a change in nature which disagrees with what James is saying. Jesus was created, he was completely human, but the Almighty because of his obedience, raised him up to immortality and put him in a level of authority second only to Himself, the only one above Jesus is the Almighty God, his Father. Jesus is the Messiah, from the Tribe of Judah descendent of David so he is human, to suggest he existed before, it is to refute what the Old Testament teaches about him. Jesus, by the Spirit of the Father displayed powerful signs and also his words were given to him by the Father as Jesus himself testifies when he says “ the words that I speak I do not speak of my own accord, my Father who lives in me does his work” John 14:10
The argument that firstborn means preeminent at the 11:00 timestamp is what I like to call a distinction without a difference. Seth is simply repeating an argument that Sam Shamoon made. David is the 'firstborn', not literally but in eminence . What Seth doesn't realise is that if I am of the highest position of a class, I AM STILL OF THAT CLASS. How on earth can I be in the highest position in a class if I am not of that class/group/category? The statement would have no ontological meaning. David being the firstborn of kings means that David IS STILL A KING albeit the most eminent and exalted. Israel being the "firstborn" of nations is STILL A NATION. Similarly, Jesus being the "firstborn of all creation" means that, for this statement to have any ontological meaning he has to be OF THAT CLASS i.e. of the class of creation. He is the most exalted and eminent of creation. When Sam Shamoon made this argument, at least he realized that even this is not enough to win his argument: it gets him past firstborn but he is still stumped by Jesus being of the creation class. So Sam to racheted up eminent to pre-eminent and lol, pre-eminent is still not enough so he hoiks that up to transcendental. But WAIT!!! The basis of the comparison is King David and Israel. Hence, if Jesus is transcendental and pre-eminent, then King David would have to be transcendental as well.
Jehovah is king of Israel (Zeph 3:15), which is the highest position of a class of humans (Israelites), so is Jehovah a human? If you say, "No," then you demonstrate the problem with your "class" argument. Paul tells us his reason in v. 16, but JWs don’t read the Bible in context. Does Paul say that Jesus is “Firstborn” because 1) he is the agent of creation, ie the one who created all things (positional) or 2) he was the first created thing (chronological, ie a created being)?
@BasicBiblicalTruth Respectfully sir there is no problem with my class argument. The problem with YOUR argument is that firstborn was not used to describe Jehovah so I have nothing to respond to. Have a good evening ( Mr Seth likes to brand me as disrespectful so I am taking extra care to be civil to everyone I dialogue with. Sorry if this comes across as being fake)
@moisesbeyond in Isaiah 14:4, 44:6, and 48:12 all state that God is the first and the last In Revelation 1:17-18, and 2:8 both say I am the first, and the last, the one who died but is now alive. So from these 5 verses we know that IF Jesus is not God, then He cannot claim to be the first and the last. If God is not Jesus, the He cannot claim that He died. I hope this helps
I am not JW. JW aren't allowed to watch this video anyways. Only begotten of the father. What does that mean? I don't know. I honestly don't care. Jesus is God, Lord and Savior. Divine. Holy. Perfect. Jesus lived. Died. Rose. Son of God. Immanuel with us. What does it matter if eons in the past, long before Creation, Jesus was somehow "begotten" is irrelevant. Now if someone wants to say Jesus was created into the womb of Mary and didn't exist before, that is heresy, of course. If someone claims Jesus isn't God, that's heresy also.
It matters because the idea of Jesus being created doesn't fit the triune god narrative. If Jesus is created, he is not God Almighty. Which is exactly what the scriptures tell us. So when Jesus tells us to worship the Father, most ignore that and worship the son as an equal. Jesus never wanted that. You raise a good question, "what does it matter?"... it matters because of what Jesus said: Joh4:23 But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him" The Father. Not the son. The Trinity totally disregards this clear command.
Franky, and other JWs, are not honest with the text of the Bible. JWs must consistently add to the text. When Jesus says that people will worship the Father in spirit and truth, does he say that people will not worship him? No, but JWs must read this into the text. Do people in the NT worship Jesus? Yes. Luke 24:52, Mat 28:19, Rev 5, etc.
@kevinfromcanada4379 Rotherham (not NWT) ●Luk24:52 "And they [[having bowed down unto him]] returned unto Jerusalem with great joy; ●Mat24:19Go ye therefore and disciple all the nations, Immersing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, ●Rev5: "5And one of the elders saith unto me-Do not weep! Lo! the lion that is of the tribe of Judah, the root of David, hath overcome to open the scroll and the seven seals thereof" Jesus "Had overcome", and is now worthy. Something that would never, ever be said of Almighty God. Which makes sense, as Almighty God Jehovah is the one sitting on the throne HOLDING the scroll Jesus became worthy to open. "Dishonesty"?, I think you are projecting again Kevin. Remember God is watching.
Franky, why are you citing Rotherham's version? In Rev 22:9, Rotherham has "and he saith unto me--See [thou do it] not! A fellow-servant, am I, of thee, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them who keep the words of this scroll: unto God, do homage." Would you concede that the NWT is wrong to have "worship" in this verse instead of homage? No, you wouldn't. So you are not being honest. This is classic JW. Instead of arguing for why their translation is correct, they make the child's cry "But MOM! The other kids are doing it!" by citing another version. Is Jesus worshipped in Luke 22:52, Mat 28:19, and Rev 5? Yes.
@kevinfromcanada4379 as you may have noticed, I never cite the NWT unless explicitly stated. The reason I don't is because the exact words you use do my head in, "BUT MOMMY, THAT'S THE NWT blah, blah ,blah" It's painful, so I just use other translations. I prefer the ASV where I can. It's helpful for showing the clear distinction between Jehovah and Jesus. Like ps110:1. Is Jesus worshipped innthe texts you cite? No. As shown above. Just as the synagogue of satan is not forced by Jesus to literally worship his obedient followers in rev3. But it reads as such: 9Behold, I give of the synagogue of Satan, of them that say they are Jews, and they are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee." Jesus into idolatry? Or perhaps proskyneo is relative? As you know it is.
Almighty God is the Father of our Lord Jesus Jesus in not His Father, Almighty God who said: This is my beloved Son...Mt. 3 For no one knows the Son like his Father Mt.11 And no one knows the Father as well as His Son Mt. 16 The Anointed One, the Son of God Mt. 26 The Anointed One, the Son of the living God. Luke 22 Son of God! John 1 This is the Son of God.John 19 God’s Son. 2 Cor 1 Believe the Bible! Believe the Apostles of Christ. NOT 3rd Century, politically motivated, church doctrine!
Almighty God (Jehovah) subsists in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The NT identifies Jesus as Jehovah, the second person of the triune God, by taking OT Jehovah passages and applying them to Jesus: Mar 1:2-3 (citing Isa 40:3 & Mal 3:1), Rom 10:13 (citing Joel 2:32), Phi 2:10-11 (citing Isa 45:23), 2Thes 1:9 (citing Isa 2:10), Heb 1:10-12 (citing Psa 102:25-27), 1Pe 2:3 (Psa 34:8), 3:14-15 (Isa 8:12-13).
Alot of things I disagree with in this video and most, if not all of it, can be challenged using bible and extra-biblical sources. But to focus on one point about firstborn. I think you are misusing the text and language to make your case. Firstly, your position really isn't preeminence as a meaning. If that's all you were saying a JW would agree. You're actually saying "not necessarily birth-order". In saying "not necessarily birth-order" you go to (for one) Psalm 89:27. That doesn't work to build a positive case: 1)David is the firstborn in a relationship with his heavenly father YHWH (Ps 89:26, 27) 2)David is the lastborn in a relationship with his earthly father Jesse (1 Sam 17:12-14) 3)Therefore firstborn can mean preeminence and not necessarily birth-order This is a non-sequiter because the conclusion doesn't follow from the premises. (It would be something like: 'Davids birth-order depends on what relationship we refer to.') It's really a red herring to bring up his position with Jesse because Psalm is referring to his relationship with God! How do you resolve this? (I haven't made a positive case for birth-order, I'm just doing a internal critique of the Trinitarian position)
Hello @eew8060, what I was demonstrating on that slide was that "Firstborn" doesn't necessarily mean "first created", which is how JW's understand it. Rather, it can simply imply a position of supreme authority in a given sphere of influence, which is how its used of David in Psalm 89:27. Given that background, I see no problem in calling Jesus the "firstborn over all creation" since he has the position of supreme authority. I feel like that's pretty straightforward, but if I'm missing you somewhere, let me know!
@@theologywithseth Yes, I laid it out to challenge the logic of that argument. If I've correctly laid out the premises (1 and 2) then the conclusion (3) doesn't follow. How do you deal with that? And I said to bring up Jesse from Psalm 89 is a red herring. How do you deal with that also?
@eew8060 The reason I brought up those examples was to prove that "firstborn" doesn't necessarily mean "first created". That's all I need to answer the JW argument based on Colossians 1:15 and I think those examples accomplish that. So I don't think it's a red herring at all- I think it's responsible Bible study.
@@theologywithseth Ok so you're not following my challenge. You'd agree that firstborn _normally_ refers to a birth-order, right? In an effort to show how it doesn't necessarily mean that you go to Psalm 89. Therein David is called a firstborn in a relationship with YHWH. That in no way demonstrates what you set out to prove. Just because he's not a firstborn in a relationship with Jesse does _not_ show that he can't be a firstborn in someway with the heavenly Father. You haven't demonstrated not birth-order at all.
David is "firstborn" in relationship to his heavenly father YHWH? So, you think that YHWH had coitus with a female human and sired David, just as Zeus did when he sired Hercules. Sounds like you have pagan beliefs.
Was it an accumulation of being unwise that led to creating? Haha! WISDOM here is CHAKHMAH, a feminine form, or derivative from CHAKHAM. The whole TRINITY always were CHAKHAM, but the first step of preparing to create was ONE of THEM (JESUS) taking on the role of CHAKHMAH, the same WISDOM that always was being expressed to new witnesses for the first time ever, entering the role of the WORD breaking an eternal silence towards things that had never been before, beginning their existence upon JESUS as FOUNDATION of all things, communicating existence them these newcomers into knowledge of WISDOM. The first of YHWH's works or services does not mean creature, but bespeaks a newly entered role by an ETERNAL BEING, a new transaction occurring within the GODHEAD without change to any trait of GOD.
Prov 8 says that this MASTER CRAFTSMAN (masculine) is MASTER,and also BEGOTTEN, who gives LIFE, and REJOICEs - thus has feelings. this Wisdom in Prov 8 is also FROM ANCIENT TIMEs - v22, same as Jesus as from ANCIENT times - Micah 5:2 and also the BEGINNING , Prov 8:22 and Jesus is the BEGINNING - Rev 3 and Jesus is also BEGOTTEN , same as this Wisdom is called BEGOTTEN. How many BEGOTTEN of GOD is there?
@@Mr.DC3..1941 you are WRONG, There is NO BIBLE text that called Jesus as CREATOR OR MAKER. the BIble NEVER mentioned or used the term "Jesus is Jehovah". GOD uses ECHAD in Deut 6:4 and Ecclesiastes says two are better than ONE - ECHAD. How many is ONE? it is NOT THREE. ONE flesh is also ECHAD for one, as it is FIGURATIVE. So the plain question for you, is if ECHAD for GOD is FIGURATIVE? NOPE. GOD is ONE. GOD IS ONE-ECHAD FATHER, one-ECHAD GOD - Mal 2:10, so you tell if THE FATHER IS COMPOSED of three persons when it called the Father as ONE-ECHAD FATHER. NOPE. Mal 2:10 shows THAT ONE GOD , IS ONE - ECHAD FATHER and NO OTHER persons are part of that ONE GOD
@@Mr.DC3.1914 Your Masonic bible has been altered by evil scribes. This is what the bible says Colossians 1:16-19 (RSV) 16 for in him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or authorities-all things were created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 He is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning, the first-born from the dead, that in everything he might be pre-eminent. 19 For in him all the fulness of God was pleased to dwell," Jesus created ALL things and not your masonic rendering of all OLTHER things.
@@Scott48-m7e you say I altered it. Colossians 1:16-17 (KJV) 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: Colossians 1:16 (NIV) 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. Colossians 1:16 (NRSV) 16 for in him all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers-all things have been created through him and for him. Colossians 1:16 (NET 2nd Ed.) 16 for all things in heaven and on earth were created in him-all things, whether visible or invisible, whether thrones or dominions, whether principalities or powers-all things were created through him and for him. Every scholarly bible translation says Jesus created all things. I think we are done here.
How can Jesus be God if he is “the image of God”? In our minds, the word “image” makes us think of an archetype and the copy, and while the degree of resemblance can range from partial to complete, they are nevertheless distinct. However, Kleinknecht points out that “since a representation of what is invisible is impossible, the meaning here is a revelation with substantial participation, as in Plato and Philo. The eikṓn is not alien to the object, nor present only in the mind, but is in fact its reality and illumines its inner essence.”[1] In other words, Jesus is the visible manifestation of the Godhead-that which can be seen of God. Col 1:15 is not saying that Jesus is essentially distinct from God the Father (ie. part of creation) as unitarians claim, but within the context of the book (cf. 1:19 & 2:9) is a claim that Jesus is the reality-God manifest. [1] H. Kleinknecht, II, “The Greek Use of Eikṓn,” in Theological Dictionary of the New Testament : Abridged in One Volume (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1985), 182.
@@BasicBiblicalTruth You are in trouble, as all the very best bible scholars no longer believe Jesus is God. From Tabor to Ehrman, do not accept Jesus was God, but a later day invention by Christian’s. However, God’s spirit dwelling in Christ does make him one with God in theory. Yes, Jesus was the created as Colossians claims, he was the first in rank of all created things.
@@bunchlead LOL. You said, "All the very best bible scholars no longer believe Jesus is God." This is a "No true Scotsman" fallacy. Colossians doesn't say he was created. Rather, it says he is the uncreated creator of ALL things.
Jesus is not God. He is one with the Father. We all can be one with Jesus. John 17:20-23 He and the Father are one in purpose. He is a creation of The Most High who we don’t know by name. He is not Jehovah aka Yahweh. This god is a god of war and mischief that Jesus came to expose and refute. Freemasons honor a trinity god represented by a by a three headed snake named Joa:Bul:On which stands for Jehovah, Baal, and Osiris. At Genesis 6:1-4 it states the sons of God had intercourse with the daughters of men and they gave birth to hybrids. Is it beyond God’s power to have Mary become pregnant and bare his son by Holy Spirit without intercourse. God gave us His son with free will to choose his calling. and was resurrected and elevated to a position higher than the angels for fulfilling his purpose. However he was not as high as his Most High Father, He sits at his Father’s right hand. He read scriptures and saw himself in Isaiah chapter 53 snd other prophecies. His parents told him of the angel telling Joseph about him at Matthew 1:20-23. At age 12 he was in the temple for 3 days listening to teachers and answering questions. He grew in wisdom and was favored by God, not himself, Luke 2:41-52 It appears he made up his mind about his calling when he told his parents he was in his Father’s house. The earliest Christians maintained that Jesus was a human being who was a god , a divine being. It wasn’t until later they realized Holy Spirit came upon Mary and God was his Father. Here is where confusion began as to the his nature . It wasn’t until 325 CE at the First Council of Nicaea that the trinity doctrine was finalized after years of debate . The New Testament contains no explicit trinitarian doctrin. However many believe it can be inferred. 1John 5:7-8 in the King James Bible has been regarded as a spurious addition to the original text. The trinity is controversial and mysterious. Confusion is counter to the character of God His character is not confused. He is not the author of confusion. 1Corinthians 14:33 He was in his Father’s purpose ,his intent as defined by the greek word logos at John 1: 1. Being with God means in his intended plan for man’s redemption It states the word was God but some scholars argue this is a mistranslation. They say the most appropriate translation would be “ the Word was a deity “ , which is a scalar category that doesn’t make the Word the same as God. At John 20:28 where Thomas said referred to Jesus as my Lord and my God was not saying Jesus was The actually God Almighty. The meanings of Lord in Greek referred to a title of honor, respect and reverence, one who controlled his thinking and taught him. The rendering of God in the first definition in Greek means god, goddess, a general deity. The second definition refers to a Trinity which was a word not even in the language. This made Jesus equal to his Father. This definition was put in by later translators to support the trinity doctrine In the beginning all things were created with him in mind. The Most High planned a deliverer to redeem man from sin having foreknowledge of Adam and Eves sin losing their chance for eternal life condemning us all to face death. At Romans 8:11 it mentions the Spirit that raised Jesus from the dead shall also quicken our mortal bodies by the Spirit that dwells in us. Jesus said at John 2:19 Destroy this temple ( we are the temple in which God dwells and are one with him and his Father ) and in three days i will raise it up. The Spirit that raised him up was his Father’s. After by his own power he literally raised his body up off the slab he was on. He also revived the temple of believers by his resurrection. He did not bring life back to himself. In 1 Corinthians 15 it tells of the order of resurrections and how Jesus was risen. Jesus has the keys to life and death. By his Father’s power he will grant life. Christ was first, then the firstfruits and afterward those at his coming. Then the end when he ( Jesus) has delivered up the kingdom ( his kingship ) to his Father who entrusted it to him. He is to be worshipped as His Father and all angels must honor him He is to be our judge and redeemer and salvation. Jesus has the keys to life and eternal death, aka Hell. When death is destroyed and Lucifer killed,crushed in the head then death will be no more. He will then turn the kingdom back to his Father His chosen have repented and walked in holiness crying out for God to create in them a clean heart and renew a steadfast spirit that resists sin Psalms 51:10 . He is coming back soon to call His chosen home.
BROTHERMAN, IF JESUS WAS NOT CREATED, CAN YOU PLEASE EXPLAIN JOHN 5 v 26 TO THE PEOPLE YOU ARE TRYING TO MISLEAD? It says, " THE FATHER HAS LIFE IN HIMSELF, SO HE HAS (GRANTED) THE SON TO HAVE LIFE IN HIMSELF....So what happened before the son was ( GRANTED) TO HAVE LIFE IN HIMSELF? IF SOMEONE GRANT YOU SOMETHING, OBVIOUSLY YOU DID NOT HAVE IT BEFORE IT WAS GRANTED TO YOU? BROTHERMAN, do you know that the angels also existed even before the earth was made? When GOD made the earth, the angels let out a big shout of praise. (JOB, 38 v 7) the angels were also there, so weren't they also created at some point and time? WHAT ELSE COULD THE FIRST BORN MEAN, BUT THE FIRST BORN.? You see with all due respect, you guys DO NOT KNOW THE SCRIPTURES, YET YOU KEEP COMPARING YOURSELVES WITH JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES. WHAT YOU GUYS DO NOT KNOW IS THAT DAVID IS THE FIRST KING TO SIT ON GOD'S THRONE IN ISRAEL. AFTER KING SAUL DISOBEYED GOD, GOD REJECTED HIM AND ANOINTED DAVID AS KING OF ISRAEL. Read 1 Samuel 16 v 1 onwards. JESUS was supposed to come through the blood lineage of Jesse. JESSE had 8 sons of which David was the youngest. Jehovah rejected all seven of David's brothers and chose David. JEHOVAH MADE A COVENANT WITH DAVID, THAT THE KINGDOM WOULD REMAIN IN HIS BLOOD LINE FOREVER, RIGHT DOWN TO JESUS. ( 2 SAMUEL 7 v 12 to 16) and ( 1 Chronicles 17 v 11 to 14) THAT is why he is referenced to as SON OF DAVID.( MATTHEW 1 v 1)) YOU GUYS DO NOT KNOW THE SCRIPTURES, AND YOU KEEP TRYING TO MALIGN JEHOVAHS WITNESSES. God created Jesus and used him to create all other things, what is so hard to understand in that? IF THE TOYOTA COMPANY MAKES A ROBOT AND USE IT TO MAKE ALL ITS VEHICLES, WHO MADE THE VEHICLES, THE ROBOT OR THE TOYOTO COMPANY? ( HEBREWS 3 v 4) ? IF JESUS IS GOD, CAN YOU PLEASE EXPLAIN 1 CORINTHIANS 15 v 24 to 28, and please note that at verse 27 ( king James version Bible) it says, that ALL THINGS WERE PUT UNDER JESUS FEET, but it goes on to say when it says all things ,IT IS EVIDENT THAT HE WHO PUT ALL YHINGS UNDER JESUS FEET, IS EXCEPTED. In other words, ALL THINGS EXCEPT GOD WAS PUT UNDER JESUS FEET. TRY EXPLAINING THAT TO THE PEOPLE YOU ARE TRYING TO MISLEAD. IF JESUS IS THE CREATOR, WHY THEN DOES GOD HAVE TO GIVE HIM A NAME ABOVE ALL OTHER NAMES ( as a reward for carrying out the RANSOM SACRIFICE? IF HE IS THE CREATOR, HE WOULD ALWAYS HAVE A NAME ABOVE ALL OTHER NAMES? WHY DOES GOD HAVE TO GIVE JESUS ALL AUTHORITY IN HEAVEN AND ON EARTH? IF HE WAS THE CREATOR HE WOULD HAVE ALWAYS HAVE ALL AUTHORITY? SO TRY AND SEE IF YOU CIULD EXPLAIN 1 CORINTHIANS 15 v 24 to 28 to the people you are trying to mislead.
Why are you shouting? I can't respond to this because it's just one big blast of anger, but if you settle down, I'd be happy to address any of your concerns. I only ask that you be respectful and ask one question or raise one concern at a time.
In Prov 8 the Wisdom is FROM ANCIENT TIMEs - v22, same as Jesus as from ANCIENT times - Micah 5:2 and also the BEGINNING , Prov 8:22 and Jesus is the BEGINNING - Rev 3 and Jesus is also BEGOTTEN , same as this Wisdom is called BEGOTTEN. Even Tertullian called Jesus as the Wisdom of God who was born and CREATED
@theologywithseth While there is no love lost between me and JW’s your exegesis of Prov. 8:22 and Col. 1:15 was severely lacking. For example, you failed to inform your audience that Prov. 8:22 in the LXX does use the Greek word for “create”. And pretty much to a man the Ante-Nicene fathers identified Christ as Wisdom which, according to the LXX was “created”. Also, the expression “firstborn of all creation” does in fact place Christ within the order of creation. Whenever “prototokos” or “firstborn” is connected to a group in the genitive like we have at Col. 1:15 the firstborn is always a member of the group. There are no exceptions. For example, “the firstborn of the herd” is part of the herd. The “firstborn of sheep” is also a sheep, etc. So unless you can show a counter example where “prototokos” is connected to a group in the genitive and is not part of the group then your argument is just special pleading.
Hello @unletteredandordinary! Thank you for your comment. I'm aware that the LXX strangely translated "Qanah" as "Created". However, the Old Testament was inspired in *Hebrew* , not Greek, so it's the Hebrew word that we should base our doctrine on. It simply won't do to view Christ as part of the created order in Colossians because in the larger context of the passage, Paul is making a contrast between Creator and creation and he places Christ firmly in the class of *Creator* . He further says that in Christ, "the *whole fullness of deity* dwells bodily" (Colossians 2:9) which is just another way of saying he's "fully God". Unless you believe God is a created being, I'm afraid we just can't interpret Colossians 1:15 to mean Jesus is a created being. I appreciate your response though!
@@theologywithseth It’s not “strangely” translated “create” in the LXX. It’s simply how the Jews at that time interpreted the verse. And the word “qanah” does have the sense to create via the acquisition of something that one previously didn’t posses. (See Strong’s, NAS or Brown-Driver-Briggs to confirm) Also on Bible Hub it does offer “create” as a definition for “qanah. Note: possessed me קָ֭נָנִי (qā·nā·nî) Verb - Qal - Perfect - third person masculine singular | first person common singular Strong's 7069: To erect, create, to procure, by purchase, to own So it’s apparent that Prov. 8:22 not only can mean God “created” Christ as the “beginning of his works” but the decision of the LXX writers to use “ektisen” or “create” confirms that was the popularly held belief. This is perfectly in line with Col. 1:15. And since you could not give me an example of a “prototokos/firstborn” that exists outside of its group in the genitive case then the point stands; Christ is definitely a created being. This is why he is called a “son”, the “firstborn”, the “only begotten god”. All temporal expressions highlighting a clear distinction between God and the one that he “brought forth” whose “origin was from ancient times”.-Micah 5:2 God didn’t have an origin, nor was he begotten, nor was he born in any sense of the word. Only creatures can be spoken of in such a way. The idea that Christ was created is also found in the Ante-Nicene fathers. Here are some quotes that clearly show they believed Christ was created. Irenaeus calls Jesus and the angels, God’s “creatures”; Against Heresies (Book II, Chapter 6) “How, again, could either the angels, or the Creator (Christ) of the world, have been ignorant of the Supreme God, seeing they were His property, and His creatures” Then there’s this quote from Eusebius; Eusebius of Caesarea - Next to the Being of the God of the universe, which is without beginning and uncreate, incapable of mixture and beyond all conception, they introduce a second Being and divine power, which subsisted as the first beginning of all originated things and was originated from the first cause, calling it Word, and 'Wisdom, and Power of God.' And the first to teach us this is Job, saying: 'But whence was wisdom found? And what is the place of understanding? Man knoweth not the way thereof, nor yet was it found among men, ... but we have heard the fame thereof. The Lord established the way thereof, and He knoweth the place thereof.' And David also somewhere in the Psalms, addressing Wisdom by another name, says: 'By the word of the LORD were the heavens established': for in this manner he celebrated the Word of God the Organizer of all things. Moreover, his son Solomon also speaks as follows in the person of Wisdom herself, saying: 'I Wisdom made counsel my dwelling, and knowledge and understanding I called unto me. By me kings reign, and rulers decree justice.' And again: 'The LORD created me as the beginning of His ways unto His works [Prov. 8:22: Κύριος ἔκτισέ με ἀρχὴν ὁδῶν αὐτοῦ εἰς ἔργα αὐτοῦ - PG 21.541.75.], from everlasting He founded me, in the beginning or ever He made the earth, and before the depths were made, . . . before the mountains were settled, and before all hills He begat me [Prov. 8.25b: γεννᾷ με - PG 21.541.75]; . . . when He was preparing the heaven I was beside Him; . . . and as He was making safe the fountains beneath the heaven, . . . I was with Him arranging. I it was in whom He daily delighted, and I was rejoicing before Him in every season when He was rejoicing in having completed the habitable world.' (Preparation of the Gospel - Part 1, 7.12, trans. Edwin Hamilton Gifford, Baker 1981 reprint, pp. 320, 321.) Notice Eusebius clearly says Christ is a “second Being”. That is a direct contradiction to trinitarianism. Plus he identifies Christ as the created “Wisdom” of Prov. 8. Tertullian also admits, not only was there a time when the Son was not, but also that he was created; “ “There was, however, a time when neither sin existed with Him, nor the Son… the very Wisdom of God is declared to be born and created, for the special reason that we should not suppose that there is any other being than God alone who is unbegotten and uncreated.… the Lord was of Him and in Him, was yet not without a beginning - I mean His Wisdom, which was then born and created… the Father, should be older, and on this account, nobler, than the Son of God”. - Tertullian, Against Hermogenes, Chapters 3, 18 You claimed the Early Church Fathers were Trinitarian. I didn’t know Trinitarians believed Christ was one of God’s creatures and that there was a time when the Son was not? Or could it be you were wrong about that as well? Col. 2:9 is not identifying Christ as God since we as followers of Christ are said to have the same “fullness”. Read the context, it’s talking about Christians having the fullness of the divine quality of wisdom so as not to be misled. Has nothing to do with ontology. To close let me say that if someone purports to be a follower of Christ and such a person can’t read the earliest recorded creedal statements found at 1 Cor. 8:4-6 and Ephesians 4:4-6 and wholeheartedly teach them without adding or taking away from what is explicitly stated then they are not Christians. And if you are worshipping anyone beyond “one God the Father” in the ultimate sense then you would not be worshipping the same God Jesus himself worships. Failing to promote the God Jesus worships as the “only true God” is nothing more than idolatry. Please consider these things more closely and stop teaching people things the Bible simply does not advocate or clearly elucidate. Thanks.
@unletteredandordinary I haven't deleted any of your comments, friend. If you're referring to the extremely long comment you wrote, I assure you, I can still see it! I'll try to reply when I can
@@theologywithseth It’s not showing up at all. I tried viewing it from several accounts and it’s not there. Which means either you deleted it or you’ve shadow banned (hidden) my comments. Don’t worry. You wouldn’t be the first that’s run away from this discussion. Just ask Sam Shamoun or Kelly Powers. 😂
YOU CANNOT DENY HISTORICAL FACT that your paganized Trinity was MAN-MADE and formulated after about 400 years - FROM BRITANNICA - The Council of Nicaea in 325 stated the crucial formula for that doctrine in its confession that the Son is “of the same substance [homoousios] as the Father,” even though it said very little about the Holy Spirit. Over the next half century, St. Athanasius defended and refined the Nicene formula, and, by the end of the 4th century, under the leadership of St. Basil of Caesarea, St. Gregory of Nyssa, and St. Gregory of Nazianzus (the Cappadocian Fathers), the doctrine of the Trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since
@@Mr.DC3..1941 Babylonia "The ancient Babylonians recognised the doctrine of a trinity, or three persons in one god-as appears from a composite god with three heads forming part of their mythology, and the use of the equilateral triangle, also, as an emblem of such trinity in unity" (Thomas Dennis Rock, The Mystical Woman and the Cities of the Nations, 1867, pp. 22-23). India "The Puranas, one of the Hindoo Bibles of more than 3,000 years ago, contain the following passage: 'O ye three Lords! know that I recognize only one God. Inform me, therefore, which of you is the true divinity, that I may address to him alone my adorations.' The three gods, Brahma, Vishnu, and Siva [or Shiva], becoming manifest to him, replied, 'Learn, O devotee, that there is no real distinction between us. What to you appears such is only the semblance. The single being appears under three forms by the acts of creation, preservation, and destruction, but he is one.'
@@Mr.DC3.1914 Your Master and former Masonic Lodge Icon Arius said that he was a worshipper of Satan. Brittanica says the Trinity is in the New Testament “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” (Matthew 28:19); and in the apostolic benediction: “The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all” (2 Corinthians 13:13). Thus, the New Testament established the basis for the doctrine of the Trinity. You are a pagan
@@Mr.DC3.1914 thats a moder myth. no religion had a real trinity. they had a group of 3 gos but not three godes in one. But the belive that YHWH is multipersonal is much older. The jews had this idea already very far developed. You can read about it in the book "two powers in heaven". the jews got this idea from the book of daniel, that described the son of man, comming with the clouds. everyone knew that only YHWH comes with the cloud, so they tried to figure out who this second figure is. turns out, it was Jesus. the jewish leades forbid this belive 100 A.D. because it was too similar to christianity. Do you still belive the trinity comes from the council of nicarea?
