Des Moines Cruisers VS Iowa Battleships 

While the Iowa's are just flat out incredible, i think the Des Moines are probably the best gun ships made. I wish they had made all 9 and had all seen service and refit and were still around in use.

Listening to Ryan explain any topic in amazing detail while I study has become a favorite ritual of mine. Thank you for the great work done by everyone at the museum.

USS Salem was also a movie star, playing the Graf Spee in the 1956 movie 'The Battle of the River Plate' (a.k.a. Pursuit of the Graf Spee in the United States).

Former USN Surface Warfare officer; grew up near the Philly shipyard and was always amazed at the sight of the three lined up together in the basin. Newport News had a lengthy career, and I never understood why the Navy used Baltimores in Korea & Vietnam and used Salem & Des Moines for such a short time, primarily as 6th Fleet flagships. The 8" automatic guns as seen by Newport News off Vietnam would have been well used by Salem & Des Moines off Vietnam as well. They were just superior overall to the Baltimores. In the early '80s, I hoped Salem & Des Moines would be brought back maybe instead of a battleship or two, but Ryan is correct that they just didn't have the capacity for modernization to compare to the Iowas. I recall seeing the grass growing up on the fantail of Des Moines in the '80s. I last saw Des Moines in the mid-'90s after I left the Navy. It was moved to the other side of the basin and was in terrible condition. The yard workers called her "the eyesore." Salem needs help. She needs to be moved to a better location to increase visitor traffic & revenue. I'm concerned about her future. I don't want her to end up in Brownsville like her sisters.

90 rounds in the air before the first one hit the ground!! I was proud to crew the USS Newport News (CA-148) The last all gun Heavy Cruiser, in service. A note, our 8"55 guns could fire a R.A.P. round just over 20 miles. I think that the Des Moines Cruisers could stand toe to toe with any Japanese Battle ship, except the Yamato and the Musashi, I'm a little prejudiced, but the Iowa's would have a tough fight against the USS Newport News (CA-148)

I'd love to think what Admiral Lee could have done with a De Moines, imagine the carnage he could have caused 0.0

It comes down to tactics! "Play to YOUR strengths, avoid the strength of your opponent." In close, the rate of fire from a Des Moines would be VICIOUS!

Watching from Des Moines , Iowa. This is great!

What make Des Memes great is that they have automatic loading 8 inch guns, there's no autoloading naval gun with that size ever existed before. Plus the Des Memes unlike previous heavy cruisers used Powder case unlike the others used powder bags, which makes it safer and quicker to load and fire shellsm

Interesting would be to compare them to "Alaska" class - something in between "Iowa" and "Des Moines". I hope to someday have 1:700 models of all of them next to each other.

In the 80's I often argued that at that time the primary purpose of the Iowa was to project power , nothing before or since has the PRESENCE of an Iowa!

Do you know what would be interesting? If you guys did a comparsion video on the tiny differences between all four Iowa class battleships. Something us ship nerds would love to see. Great video.👍

As someone who grew up in Iowa (and born in Missouri) very close to Des Moines I very much appreciated this video!

The Des Moines class heavy cruisers were incredible ships and we are lucky to still have one around. And even though I think a version with modern radar and missile defense along with nuclear power would be an incredibly valuable asset even today, there's just no comparing throw weight per minute versus an Iowa class. If it's a lightly armored target, then sure- the Des Moines class is almost unbeatable; however, if it's a hardened target then you need that 2700 pound AP shell to get the job done. There's nothing like a 12 ton broadside to say "you have displeased me and I intend to make it clear just how much". A 350 pound shell can kill your enemy, a 2700 pound shell can sublimate them.

Great video ryan and libby, thanks! more of this pleeeease!

Your videos always feel like a very enjoyable short seminar class…. Please keep up the good work!

I think we should still keep a few analog gun ships in service. One day we may be defeated by our enemy's mouse.

The Des Moines class pretty nice but for me my favorite cruiser class the Alaska's!

I would like to see a video comparing USS New Jersey to what would have been the French equivalent of the Iowas, the Alsace class of battleships. The Alsaces would have been upscaled Richelieus armed with either nine 16" guns or three quad 15" turrets for a total of 12 heavy guns.

I like how you referenced World of warships in your video 😁

Thank you for the detailed comparison between these 2 great American warships .

Those 8-inch guns are insane. Plus, they can be loaded at any angle.

The Sverdlov class light cruisers were the only real threat during the Des Moines class years of service. An engagement would have been never evem close. I also think the Alaska class would have been a better choice to remain in commission than the battleships. They were cheaper to operate and there were no ships that could stand up to them.

I believe that the Navy should have used Salem and Des Moines more than they did . Very often the Navy does not get the most out of their existing fleet , a case in point being the Spruance class Destroyers many of which were scrapped at less than twenty years of age.

While belt armor was similar In Thickness to Baltimore, it covered a much greater area of the waterline. On the Baltimore’s the main belt ends at the fore and aft centerline 5” mounts. There is only a narrow 3” strake of armor below the waterline abrest of the main armament.

I would like to see a comparison video between the Iowas/Des Moines and the Worcesters. An even more forgotten class of super gun cruisers that actually got built.

Great review. I served on Newport News from 1968 to 1971. Note: the "News" was second fleet flag during those years.

Interesting to hear Ryan's take on the ships in WOWS (World of Warships).

I can only imagine that there were more than a few Japanese Naval officers that breathed a sigh of relief upon seeing or hearing about these cruisers- that the war ended before they were commissioned. Even the Alaskas came too late to see any real naval combat- as the IJN fleet had pretty much ceased to exist as a fighting force by that time. As a cruiser commander, just knowing that either of those types of ship was out there, lurking and hunting is the stuff nightmares are made of...

I think that Salem vs Alaska would have been a more fair comparison

The USS Salem stars as the admiral graf speaking in " Battle of the river Plate"

I loved the world of warships reference :)

Fascinating!

I see today that you are getting $500,000 for the teak decking. Wonderful!

You have the coolest job

Hi Ryan... Do you play World of Warships? And if so, what ships do you play or like the most???

Awesome comparison

I was stationed at the Philadelphia naval shipyard in 86. They were there then cool

Thank you

Great stuff.

Ryan thank for your work! I didn’t know you were in MA. Yes great vessel! The battleship Texas is “ Quite unique “!!! How effective would her torpedoes be in combat? For a ship at her time, it had promise and right into WW2. A Grand Olde Lady the Texas Is!

USS Pittsburgh CA 72 - A Baltimore Class heavy cruiser: From Wikipedia: The 104-foot section of bow broke off owing to poor plate welds at the Bethlehem Shipbuilding Co. at the Fore River Shipyard, Quincy, Massachusetts - On 4 June, Pittsburgh was caught in Typhoon Viper[1] which increased to 70-knot (130 km/h) winds and 100-foot (30 m) waves. Shortly after her starboard scout plane had been lifted off its catapult and dashed onto the deck by the wind, Pittsburgh's second deck buckled, her bow was thrust upward, and then sheared off, although there were no casualties. Still fighting the storm, and manoeuvring to avoid being hit by her drifting bow structure, Pittsburgh was held quarter-on to the seas by her engine power while the forward bulkhead was shored. After a seven-hour battle, the storm subsided, and Pittsburgh proceeded at 6 knots (11 km/h) to Guam, arriving on 10 June. Her bow, nicknamed "McKeesport" (a suburb of Pittsburgh), was later salvaged by the tugboat USS Munsee and brought into Guam. The 104-foot section of bow broke off owing to poor plate welds at the Bethlehem Shipbuilding Co. at the Fore River Shipyard, Quincy, Massachusetts. The typhoon damage also earned her the nickname "Longest Ship in the World" as thousands of miles separated the bow and stern. Thanks for sharing your video!

It's cool to see y'all mention World of Warships, I used to play it years ago and had stopped but these videos made me want to play the game again and get things like the Des Moines and Iowa.

I’ve always wondered why they didn’t do a mix of iowa and Des Moines. 2 of each ship would have been a nice combo to see. Would have saved money and keeping a Des Moines around into the 21st century for shore bombardment would have been a great idea for far less money. If only…

As a gunnery officer aboard Newport News I can tell you those rapid fire fully automatic main guns were phenomenal. Like firing an AK47 with 270 pound bullets. The nine guns could fire 90 rounds before the first one hit its target. On a raid into Haiphong Harbor in 1972 we fired over a thousand heavy caliber rounds in a four minute raid and following 10 minute running gunfight with three Russian built torpedo and missile boats.

You may have heard this, the missing Mk. 41 Vertical Stable was reunited with the USS Salem!

A comparison video I’d like to see would be New Jersey vs. the Russian 2nd Pacific Squadron (since New Jersey would easily best any single ship of that era)

0:28 Alaska Class: Am I a joke to you Ryan?

One comment, and I don't know what it means, New Jersey and Newport News were both in service during Vietnam. Given that, New Jersey was brought into service and put out of service, Newport News stayed in service for a few more years. As I said, I don't know what this means, but they did have a way to evaluate them.

Love you Ryan

Imagine a twelve 16in gun Montana-class with Des Moines main battery as it's secondary. Possibly the ultimate battleship that never was?

Thumbs up just for the Wows reference haha

lol I was playing WOWS in my Baltimore while watching this

Hello, you could do a comparison with the Japanese heavy cruiser Atago.

I would like to see some comparisons of fleet carriers.

I know Fort Drum in Manila Bay wasn't an actual battleship but a "concrete battleship" but it would be an interesting video if the Iowa's could have knocked out a fully functional Fort Drum or if the concrete protection of the fort plus the 14 inch guns would have won the battle.

That is a hugeeee amount of firepower just pumping out 8" shells.

You should come to the UK and film HMS Victory and HMS Belfast

The only cruiser to come close to the amount of weight downrange would probably be the HMS Tiger class with their 4 6" auto guns firing 20rds per minute per gun.

The des Moines are just extraordinary. My question is, considering the rate of fire, a hat emptied the magazines in about two hours, were the rifles lined,and what was the amount of shells fired between either relining,or barrel replacement?

In WW2 the Heavy Cruisers USS San Francisco had (17) battle stars and a Pres. Citation, USS New Orleans had (17) battle stars, USS Minneapolis had (16) battle stars, USS Portland had (16) battle stars and Naval Citation and USS Louisville had (13) battle stars and were in WW2 from the very start - 1941 - not the Baltimore Class. Note: (1) Baltimore Class lost a bow in a typhoon due to construction welding issues - cold welds. The Pre-war cruisers never had that problem.

another great video. Be nice to perhaps get an Identification of those folks in video from 38 to 52 seconds.

Even though the total weight of fired ordinance per minute is equivalent, I seriously doubt the 8 inch shells had the striking power of the 16 inch. The Mark 16 8 inch/55 caliber of the Des Moines cruisers threw a 335 pound shell, the Mark 7 16 inch/50 caliber threw a max 2700 pound shell. For area denial or very lightly armored, the 8 inch, for area denial in congested areas or for penetrating power, give me the 16 inch.

I have seen and heard your statements about rate of fire. What I would like to know is , how long could that ROF be maintained without barrel damage from overheating.

Cool

That bow photo of the CA looks a lot like the Iowas from that angle.

Don't know where to go with my question. But is there footage of 16" shell impacts? I am very qurious as to how impressive ground zero must look.

I have a photo of Ryan on top of turret # 1 on board Salem.

As to which id prefer, it would depend on the operations id be doing with it. If its shore bombardment, id want the Des Moines all day. Being able to lay down the same amount of ordnance and on many more targets could be a huge plus. If the operations involved sinking shipping or attacking other fleets, id want the Iowa's or Alaska's on my side, same speed more armor. Now if the Des Moines was built with more speed in mind to compensate for the thinner armor, would be hard not to take them though.

Using the classifications of “Des Moines” and “Iowa” keeps mixing me up. Some guy in the 1940’s: “Let’s really intimidate the enemies of freedom by naming all of our warships after Iowa…”

Since there were no torpedoes on these cruisers, it all comes down to the number and accuracy of 8" shell hits on an Iowa vs the same for incoming 16" shells on the cruiser. Early 8" hits would have to knock out the radars and guns of the BB pretty quickly, otherwise, lights out. The speed and maneuverability of the Des Moines might also play a role.

13:25 harbor shot , there is a NewPort News class LST along the pier. If new footage she is the last.

Hmmm... all sorts of comments here along the lines of: "we should have kept this, we should have kept that... if we only upgraded... etc..." Ummm, no. What the Navy kept, was nuclear attack subs. Because one of those could sink any surface ship before it even knew it was under attack. In fact, in multiple exercises, subs were "sinking" every ship on the opposing team - and the exercises were called off early. A big-gun boat is also just a big sitting-duck. Except in very permissive environments.

Some new Des Moines are what we need. Fill them with Standards and the automatic guns. It would be a great weapon.

When I went on a tour of Salem I could swear there were two engine rooms? What am I getting confused by?

I wonder if it would have been possible to make an automatic 16 inch gun on a post war battleship.

I have heard from people I know in the Marine Corp say that they would really like to have a Navy Ship with a big gun for shore bombardment.

Missiles have their uses, but they are far more expensive than shells. Doing away with the gun ships was wrong. I will always contend that a BB or CA visiting foreign countries puts people in awe. As far as I can find, USS St. Paul (CA-73), a Baltimore class, was the last gun cruiser having served until 1971. I saw her as she UnRepped off Sacramento in the Sea of Japan in April, 1969. Beautiful ship. That leads me to think the Des Moines class should still be operating, or a newer class that could take advantage of guns and missiles.

Sounds like while the Iowas are now museum ships, the Des Moines class ships could still see use today if they were still around. I think they should've been brought back with the Iowas and modernized back during the Reagan administration. They'd probably be still in service with those gun system upgrades and continual current modernization. It would have been quite the sight to see them in service in 2021. Imagine those guns with GPS computerized modern target systems upgrades. Very deadly to say the least.

Ryan of the Battleship USS New Jersey Museum and Memorial - agree these ships should had seen more active duty service than they actually had- because I believe that the possibility of close range ship to ship fighting exist- despite of those say about missiles- it’s like that the generals and admirals thought close air to air dogfight was over with the introduction of missiles on aircraft-. The F-4 Phantom was originally built without machine gun - but soon after the start of the Vietnam War- the F-4 Phantom was built with a machine gun.

Can you do a Fletcher class vs a tribal class destroyer?

The British had a light cruiser with automatic 6" guns but ( only 2 in her final configuration ) that was decommissioned right before the Falklands conflict- HMS Tiger.....The US had a 6 " gun light cruiser with automatic guns (12 of them) called the Worcester class...but these guns had more mechanical issues than the Des Moines class.

Great video guys! Here's a thought.... Have a weeky/twice a month raffle to play World of Warships with Ryan. Great way to raise money and we get to shoot ships with Ryan!

The Iowa class battleships not only were larger, and therefore could carry more missiles, but had heavier armor. I'm not sure how well any ship would do when hit by a Soviet AS-4 Kitchen even with a 1 ton conventional warhead, but the Iowa's would be far more survivable against these and smaller missiles. Although I never understood why we didn't put 2 to 4 Sea Sparrow launchers and replace the Mark 38 with Mark 45 guns, which would have made the battleships even more survivable.

My favorite CC in WOW is the tier 10 Hindenburg with her 8 torps per side in addition to the guns. I like to hunt BB's with her especially around islands where the element of surprise lets me unload at close range. Why did US cruisers stop using torps? I can understand no smoke in the age of radar but not having a secondary primary weapon seems illogical.

I think that the U.S. Navy should have retained the DES MOINES Class and the IOWAS too. Ryan, I agree with you. These were by far the FINEST and BEST BBs and CAs built by the Navy. I am GLAD that the American people decided to save all four IOWAS. I just wish all three DES MOINES had of been saved too. They almost U.S.S. NEWPORT NEWS. But, unfortunately, those plans fell through.

That statement about the last gun cruiser you can visit is about to change as the AP Almirante Grau is apparently being saved as a museum

The Iowa Class battleship is more powerful because they are Battleships but the better question is which is more effective as well as what if the Iowa class ships were given the same upgrades as the Des Moines. Or perhaps of the Montana class had been build with the same upgrades around the same time

How would modern missiles do against either Des Moine class crusiers or Iowa's armor?

I was not a gunners mate I was a Boatswains mate. I serve from 84 to 88 so President Reagan was my commander in chief and what a great commander chief he was. I was on a 10 cam Uss davidson I Garcia Class Fast frigate

Great summary of the best gunships ever built, and kudos for the World of Warships shoutout!

Can you tell me if the Des Moines cruisers were really that easy to ammo rack as how War Thunder portrays them to be. Are their ammo racks really that exposed as you stated they do have a shallow draft.

Ryan we need the NJ in WoW as a T10 premium ship with Vietnam retro fit secondaries to make it different than the T9 Iowa

The Des Moines class heavy cruisers arguably were the most beautiful and elegant surface warfare ships ever to be commissioned in the U.S. Navy.

Still waiting for a comparison with the Queen Elizabeths in general or Warspite in particular.

I do think ships still need guns. I don't think that they are better than the Iowa class battleships but they were the best cruisers.

I wonder how they would have made out at Guadalcanal??

8" 55 👍 Des Moines Class The most fit for purpose warships ever built

The lack of armor would be the deciding factor.

As always, very interesting. I normally prefer to read, but when Ryan is offering the explanation, I'll gladly listen. The issue with the three ships in the Des Monise class is the crew compliment. Crewing the three Des Monise would be equal to crewing roughly 14 Ticonderoga class guided missile cruisers. More modern systems would have reduced the Des Monise crew size, but those ships would still require a lot of resources for their capability. In addition, I like stream as much as anyone, but the handwriting for gas turbines was already on the wall. As Phillip Bouchard said, the Navy doesn't always get the absolute maximum out of every ship in commission, but they seem to get enough.