Design #27 - Warmachine MkIV and the Rise & Fall of Privateer Press 

There are some issues with your timeline and argument lines here. Monsterpocalypse (the first edition, with blind purchase prepainted models) came out in 2008 (the second edition with unpainted "hobby" models came out in 2018), when Warmachine was still in its Mk1 days and had not "broken out" with Mk2 (which came in 2010). The Level 7 line was only one in a long line of PP board - and card games: the Infernal Contraption line in 2007 (with Heap, Scrappers, Bodgermania and Finally Zombies keep out as different games in the same "setting" continuing until 2015), the Grind Warmachine Tie-In game in 2009 (a warjack rugby game) and all the games that came after the Mk2 breakout like Widower's Wood/Undercity, Riot Quest, the High Command card game, the Warmachine Tactics computer game, Level 7 et cetera). The RPGs have also always run on the side of Warmachine: the original 3.5 RPG supplement was followed by the IKRPG (a separate system from D&D) in 2012 and the 5th ed D&D tie-in in 2021. Only Monpoc and Level 7 are not direct Warmachine Tie-ins. The rest are either set in the IK, parodies of the IK, or "alternate timelines" for Riot Quest. It is also the case that Monsterpocalypse 2nd ed seems to be a quite successful franchise. Warcaster is a different beast, mainly because it released during the pandemic and hasn't really gotten traction yet. We will see in the future. But this means the company has managed to diversify successfully with Monpoc, and their recent cooperation with Mythic games to kickstart cheaper miniatures more directed toward the boardgame market (as Monpoc Mk1 also was) will likely see the game develop further. All these things happened long after Snoddy (and McVey, in a way) had left the company a long time ago. Snoddy left in 2005, Ali and Mike in 2007. So the sideline game strategy has been with PP since before people started seeing them as a serious competitor to GW. Which they never were. Although Warmachine was a successful game in Mk1, more so in 2012 and had a visibility boost after Games Workshop launched the first edition of AOS in 2014-2015 and they received a huge influx of understandably very angry WHFB players ( PP sent people with free starter sets to the final WHFB WTC, which ballooned the game locally, at least) they were at no time in the vicinity of Games Workshop in size. As far as I can tell, PP briefly had 100 employees (from their usual 25-50 including contractors) at the absolute apex of Warmachine popularity. Games Workshop as, as far as I have been able to find out, never fallen under 2000 employees in any time of their history after 40k exploded with the increased visibility Dawn of War 1 and the Lord of the Rings line brought them, This is reflected in ICV2 sales numbers - unlike franchise milk cow X-Wing, Warmachine never made it higher than the second spot in the independent retailer reported sales ICV2 spring/fall sales reports. You can also spot in in google trends (with a caveat: pre- 2008/2009 trends numbers are not very accurate). PP is and has always been very small in comparison to GW. PP is not and has never been GW. They have never even been a serious contender in size. The company is firmly in the Small Company category in the US. The only real contender to GW in size is perhaps Asmodee, that has started to muscle in on the miniatures market with their aquisition of Fantasy Flight and establishment of Atomic Mass Games, with their franchise milking Marvel and Star Wars Disney properties. The strategy Asmodee has going now seems to be to try to strangle the other small companies with their aquisition of many US and international distributors, that they roll into their own network (they also sell toys and in many countries handle Pokemon CCG distribution). This means that comparing PP to GW is fundamentally flawed. GW is and has for a long time been the lonely giant, with thousands of players who are never exposed to any other miniatures games than (primarily) 40k. Their advertising muscles are in a category of its own, comparable only to Asmodee's (which is more unfocused - most of its studios make boardgames) and perhaps WOTC. My real fear for the miniature games industry is that Asmodee and GW is going to starve out the independents completely. This will not be a good thing for the industry as a whole.

One final correction. They're not selling 3D STL files. They're producing the minis themselves in house with 3D printing. So it doesn't matter if we have 3D printers or not. This eliminates the shipping crisis right now by circumventing China and the expensive 3D molds. Industrial 3D printers are still expensive tho. It also allows more things that can be done with minis than traditional molds.

What killed the game in my area was when they dropped their Pressganger program! We had tournaments everywhere in Kentucky. We had active demos and paint days. Now their minis are sitting on clearance racks.

Revealing the truth of the old adage that the way to make a small fortune is to start with a large fortune.

Rip warmahordes, it was my fav game and setting for a long time. Its sad to see its dead, but im grateful i got to play the crap out of it during its peak.

Theres another factor that I believe is a major one from personal experience myself as we as a large portion of the gaming community I was a part of which included the PNW and others traveling from across the US and even other countries. A great many people left GW because they became disenfranchised with how releases, rules, prices and the felt relationship between the customer and GW started to shift, peaking roughly around 6th edition 40k and 8th edition fantasy. Nearly all of those people moved over to PP because of the tighter and more competitive rules, lower barrier of entry and miniature collection expansion and relationship that PP had with its players as well as the attitude of grit by grinding to get good at the game. I remember clearly the feeling of dejavu when the announcement was made of having the Grimkin faction added shortly after that the MK3 release announcement, the same feeling I'd had just prior to the exodus from GW which ended up playing out all over again in reality. Many of those that left GW did so again with PP when it felt like the entire draw to WarmaHordes was undermined by roughly the same reasons and a sense that PP had left the ideals and identy which had drawn those players to their game in the first place. Some have given GW another try with 9th and now 10th, most went into a variety of other games some of which being extremely obscure with only pockets of niche followers. Some stopped gaming altogether and went into other hobbies or pursuits. A decent number are coming back around though with the recent successes of Battletech kickstarters (most of whom are because we're old enough to have had it as our "first love" miniature game and its generally speaking the same game and rules from 35-40 years ago with just fine tweaks). Theres something to be said about an old faithful that gets a fresh coat of paint (pun intended). Despite leaving various companies over the decades I really do wish them all well and success so long as they do it based on satisfying their customers and player base and produce good quality products at a fair price. The raising of one companies game thats creates competition ends up benefitting the gaming community as a whole. So here's to the tabletop miniature gaming industry and even more so the community, for all the good memories and times in the past, and to more in the future regardless of what logo was/is on the product.

2:32 I love this concept art for a Khador warjack more than the new sculpts. Great run through history, thanks for making this.

In my area warmachine completely died about a year after MK2 came out. Nobody wanted to learn the new rule set or didn't like it if they did. It was also very disappointing that they disbanded the Press Gang. as a former PG i made a lot of friends there.

Love to see an update on this. PP is coming back around and feels like they are coming back strong

As someone who played a lot of MK2, leaving at the tail end of MK2, its so sad to see how far they've fallen. If your press release is lamenting not being as big as your competition or telling your fans that their old toys will be partitioned away competitively isn't a good look. You should be selling it based on the system and models.

curious if you've revisited this because i think MkIV is sick. i've played since Mk1 and, while i didn't absolutely hate the Mk3 changes, the Pressganger program getting dropped just really put a knife into the heart of my once vibrant local community. i definitely was less interested in the super wacky, alternate timeline Riot Quest stuff that happened. i think the reset -- while still keeping legacy models playable -- is such a breath of fresh air. it feels so vibrant again. the MkIV rules streamline away a lot of the fiddlier elements of the game while keeping the core appeal of the game intact. i think it makes the game much more accessible to newer players in the way the older editions really just weren't. the way they're rolling out product, i.e., tied directly to the way you would build lists, i think is great. i know it isn't a big deal to hobby veterans but having pre-drilled holes and magnets to magnetize 'jack/beast kits and make them stretch further is a great idea. also the sculpts themselves are just a step up from the previous offerings. i initially balked at the implosion in the lore but i now think the new factions and the changes to the old ones feel really great. they cleared out the design space to do some really fun and interesting stuff. having seen it all in action, i'm really excited about the new stuff and i hope my local meta returns.

I live in the Pacific Northwest where they are located, and I can't find a single store that carries their products. There was a single game store where I found their older models, that were clearly old stock that was perpetually on a 70% off discount, because nobody was buying them. This is such a shame, because I used to have massive Khador and Legion of Everblight armies. I still have some P3 paints laying around too.

McVey left GW in 1999 to work for Wizards of the Coast on things like Chainmail. That's where he met Wilson, and didn't joined PP until 2002.

i remember the sudden price rise of the miniatures not long after it got going.

Sorry but I feel like you totally missed what actually killed PP. PP was at its height during MK II. The release of MK III and then the disbanding of the Press Ganger program was what really was the beginning of the end of them. MK III was not well received and disbanding the Press Gangers really rubbed people the wrong way. There was so much backlash that they closed there in-house forum site.

Coal, metal and steam is what I want from privateer press! I’m a mk1 mk2 player, became a D6 (FMF) ikrpg gm as mk3 set in. I will bleed for PP but you nail my concerns dead on.

I want to get back to Warmachine and Hordes so bad, I think that what is missing is really for PP to start selling STLs. I'm not from US so when we started to play here in my area, the game was very affordable and we could import without many issues. With 3d Printing they could launch new designs quickly and they could start selling these into something like One Page Rules. They could still do a "hybrid type of sell"; have the physical selling of miniatures with different and more elaborative sculpts still, so that way they would generate two things, exclusivity for people who still buys those physically and would build hype and more people to play their games with affordability(buy their official stls and print in home). Looks like Mantic is starting to doing that right now, in some sort of shape way or form.

I moved to areas with no Warmachine at all for 6 years. I heard that mk4 was a thing back when it was announced. Just looked into it and honestly I understand how the Warhammer fantasy players felt about age of sigmar. After years of building up models, reading the epic stories and bonding with characters I feel somewhat betrayed with my entire army has been relegated to the war game equivalent of an appendix. I might continue to look into getting back into it but I don’t know if it’s really worth it.

I heard of warmachines way back in the early 2000s or 2010s and the minis were too expensive for me. I now have money and with them going the all digital route just got me allot more interested :)

I wonder how many ex staffers or current PP staffers have seen this?

I honestly think that the living setting is what lead to their downfall. The differences between the factions started to blur. It also made the game near impossible for new players to get into, due to the sheer amount of faction options and the way things interplay. Then we saw the game shift towards InfantryMachine, The power up introduced in MKIII feels like it was PP's attempt to get people taking lots Warkacks again. I love the game system and setting, nothing on the market plays quite like it, I just really dislike the way PP have handled it. MKIV doesn't fill me with much confidence. The lack of Battlegroup entry level boxes means the game is going to be expensive to get into, where as before a Battlegroup could be enough to get playing and those where relatively cheap. I really want PP to rise again and hope they can become a rival to GW, bit I think the decision to alienate their dedicated players by not fully supporting the current Warmachine/Hordes stuff is going to really cost them... and I don't think they can afford that level of fan disappointment.

Hey man, a little late here but i am wondering if i can interview you about your experience with warmachine? Since they were now bought out by SFG I'm doing a video documenting how they got to this point and I'd love to hear about other players experiences with the game and just world and company as a whole. Let me know!

dont know if it is relevant or not but at the time that PP started loosing market share Every Single game store in my area just up and died and I had absolutely no where to go until a GW store finally opened ...

You've made the same mistake that many people reporting on their press release have made. They will be using high end 3D printing for their design and production. They will be selling physical products, not digital files. The machines they will be using are the industrial level printers that cost in the many thousands. Another factor that led to their decline in the US, on a smaller level, was their handling of 3rd edition (and killing their very active forums as well). They didn't convert over statistics for all of their massively bloated SKUs list. When 40K swapped over from 7th to 8th they at least released the Indices so everyone could still play with all of their models. PP didn't instead wanting to do each faction at an amazingly slow pave. Players got tired of waiting for changes. They stopped playing and buying new releases. Retailers tried to dump all of their now unwanted inventory, often for ridiculous discounts. PP became toxic products that no one wanted to touch. And the appearance of being a "dying" game led to it becoming that in actuality. The main reason they hit KS for Warcaster was because they knew that they couldn't rely on a successful traditional retail release. They needed to rebuild their credibility, a point they pleasantly acknowledged in their release for Mk4. Now I've been a consumer and player since they first started with d20 supplements and launched Warmachine. When no one in any of the larger communities here in Florida was playing or supporting the game for 3rd edition, I too stopped playing (though I never get rid of any gaming products which can be easily repurposed). Their news about a new edition started positively but then became less and less so as I continued reading. Their new list building system only covers a very small percentage of existing models and is focused on new sets to get new players into the game. This is a good idea and they need to do this for certain but there's nothing to entice previous players to return. Creating a "wild west" format where "anything goes" which is the only place for older models to play in is a crap idea. Not to mention the exclusion of Hordes rules or another year after release. But, that aside, looking at this as a new player, their prices are FAR too high in comparison to other companies. This is the barrier that keeps me from their Warcaster game to date despite loving the models and most of the rules. When you can get so much more for much less in regards to starter sets, GW obviously not counted, designed to draw in and teach new players why would they go to Mk4? Infinity has two almost tournament level armies, terrain, dice, tokens, and a learn to play booklet for around $150 USD. If you add in their "Beyond" box for whichever starter you got it brings you to a full 300 pt tournament ready list. If you split these with a friend, you get a full army with almost everything you need for about $100. $200 for a single army starting force (not even at full tournament level) is laughable. PP may have already shot themselves in the foot before even getting the game out the door. I love their IP and the rules for the WM/H, and the models but I wish them luck on this. I'll continue watching this from afar but unless a Christmas miracle happens I can't see myself, and a fair piece of the veteran player community, getting involved.

with 3D printing a small miniatures doesnt need far smaller capital to produce your mini's you could do production inhouse having more control. When 3D printing takes off more you could also develop and sell your own filament and do licensing on your plans. Maybe even design and sell your own printer.

Mk3 completely obliterated any hope PP had of salvaging their games.

1. "'Play like you got a pair' was a problem..." - Correct "...Because it was misogynistic" - Lol, no. Wargames were and still are a male dominated space, groin reference jokes would is a positive boost to a player base in the 15-30 M demographic that was their core audience. There were a few problems with Page 5: They brought in a brand of tournament neckbeard who didn't paint his models, barely built his models, or played on empty bases, which is a shitty way to advertise your game to passerbys. It also excused the big problem with getting new players into the difficult to learn, hard to master system; grognards going hardcore on a newbie, who says "F*** this" and leaves. 2. 100% correct on the metal to plastic change and subsequent low-quality plastic being a problem. It was a hurdle they never got over and a cause for increased prices that should have never gotten that high. But that was not the company's killer. The real killer was a combination of making a number of poor/hurtful decisions around the time of Mk3's launch (including the launch) a few months thereafter, along with a renaissance at GW (aka, they did good things instead of bad) and more things out of their control. There was a California court ruling that MTG Judges were technically employees and deserving of water/food breaks etc during events. Because of this, PP ended their Press-Ganger Program out of fear of similar lawsuit. It was for an understandable reason, but it was a major introduction point for new players to get in a game where they wouldn't be instantly crushed. GW had a disastrous launch with Age of Sigmar, but eventually turned that game around with newer releases. Duncan Rhodes developed as a de-facto figurehead, and the one-way communication from Warhammer-community was a positive sign. Eventually a 40K 8th edition launch that took a lot of the good lessons from the AoS fiasco, bringing back a good portion of the player base that had left 5th-7th Ed 40K for Warmahordes. But what really killed Mk3 was a promise from designers that the edition was being 'balanced'. The problem was that it wasn't, and that's the worst thing to promise a group of competitive players. One faction (Skorne) that wasn't good at the end of Mk2, somehow became definitively worse at the start of Mk3. Besides player feedback on PP's own forums, this could actually be seen in tournament results, as every other faction but them (including a few factions seen as 'incomplete' or 'not-core') received a Top 3 finish within the first year of play. At the start of the next year, PP put out the 'January Skorne Update', which fixed a lot of the things that made the faction playable. Also bad was that a faction (Cryx) that was a boogeyman in Mk2 became well-balanced upon launch of Mk3 to everyone's delight. They were then the first faction to receive the new list-building gimmick for the Edition, and promptly shot into first place in tournament results with minimal competition (By edition's end, this would balance, but it was a rough quarter). And then PP nuked their built in forums from orbit, and that's what really killed the company. You were greeted upon log-in with a list of demands that you not talk ill of the game and the forum was heavily moderated. The Faction Pages where a lot of players congregated and where the complaints boiled over were gone. What was gone was the biggest hub for the community, along with an absolute boatload of good information that helped new players get into the game after that first grognard beating. Sure, Reddit and Facebook had pages, but everyone was set adrift.

Do Dream Pod 9 next

This isn't the same company who made warmachine mkI and mkII. Different people at the helm. They're effectively starting back at the beginning in terms of building their brand. Will wait for the reviews/ word of mouth before I move from infinity/malifaux

As someone investigating warmachine as a new player, i can confidently say just their website alone has turned off potential new players. it's just...first off, why is there a "related products" section that links to their other games instead of more models within the same army? the details of models and site nav needs...a lot...of help

PP didn't really kill characters. The stories "evolved," but I'd argue superficially. So many warcasters "nearly" die only to live another day (and then often "epic" versions of themselves). A complete turn off that gave no weight to the lore battles in the books. This is simply not true.

Warhammer 40k was/is an I go/you go systems? News to me.

A living setting was nothing new in North American TTWG settings, if anything the static setting is a British thing that made GW stand out as the weird one out in the late 90s and early 00s when it filled the void FASA and Wizards of the Coast's collapse left that people forget is how GW got mainstream here to begin with.

The biggest killer for Warmachine for me was the hyper focus on the competitive community. It was so difficult to get into because there was no gentle learning curve (at least not in my area). Players were solely focused on winning. There was no narrative or fun in the game. When they changed the rules to allow premeasuring and I was routinely seeing people lay down multiple rulers and templates to premeasure everything in a turn down to the millimeter, I bounced. That’s a type of hyper competitive toxicity that I want absolutely nothing to do with.

The heads of PP really drove what they had into the ground. They had all the goodwill and momentum and found a way to blow it and MK4 was the final nail. Now its just them weezing before true death takes them.

PP became more expensive themselves. It was a large reason I left PP like GW (in 3rd when I was a kid). Monsterpocalypse by MG on KS did a lot better than PP own [expensive] relaunch of Monster- for a fraction of the cost. The value of the new mark 4 isn't there. I can get miniature skirmish games on KS for a fraction of the price. Hell even PP proved themselves wrong when they partnered with MG. They tried KS themselves and didn't get very far (because they're a slow dying outdated company when very little renown in the KS world). KS board game audience is a different group than many of the wargaming audience. Even their KS games were too expensive. PP games, besides from redundant non killable plot armor on characters in their so-called "evolving" stories, had bloat issues which affected balance in their "competitive games." Nothing would make me frustrated to buy and paint minis only to find there were better things in the next book. There was a power creep. I left Mark4 as quickly as I say it with the $75 per battle box price tag. Even higher than before for $50. For a battlebox. There's other skirmish mini games for a lot less. I see you're on KS so you should know about Monolith Pantheon, Limbo Eternal War, 6: Siege, or even Monsterpocalypse by MG (Or Super Fantasy Brawl) or other such miniature games (be it skirmish or anything else), and their price point. Lol. There are new companies and PP had their time in the sun. There was no misogynistic accusation of PP I heard when I was in it.

Warmahordes was so unbalanced, some of the factions had much better abilities than the others, it showed in the tournament win ratios

I adore the fact that all the things I absolutely loathe about nu-GW have a root in this cancerous company.

Frankly amazed you skipped over the triple punch of MKIII/CID/killing the Pressgang, not to mention the debacle of the injection molds in china. I actually like (and still occasionally play) MKIII, but a SIZABLE proportion of the community actively disliked it, and caused a significant lose of the player base. HOWEVER, what REALLY caused the company to bleed players and, by extension, cultural capitol, relative ease of distribution, and profit, was that around the release of MKIII PP implementing CID and giving the Pressgang the axe. Rules continuously changing as a kind of ‘living playtesting,’ combined with a source of supporting, eager volunteers to run demos and events all over the country/world being unceremoniously dumped meant no real way for any appreciable amount of new players added to a contracting player base, which led to the inability of traction developing in an area, which led to lose of potential (and, importantly, sustained) sales, which led to lower demand, etc. etc. etc. In Southern California and the Central Coast (where I live, played, and acted as a Pressganger), this is absolutely what happened, and it killed WMH in this region almost overnight. There were also a lot of ‘little’ things that players disliked (No Quarter getting axed, cards ceasing to be printed and included due to pushing Warroom, too heavily investing in ‘passion projects’ WMH players didn’t care about sapping resources, etc), as well as some ‘bigger’ things (AMG…), but whether these were causes or symptoms…🤷🏼‍♂️ This is essentially all memory lane for me, a former Pressganger who was passionate about playing and spreading WMH from the end of MKI through the beginning of MKIII: 9 years of dedicated gaming during their rise, height, and fall. In essence, I’m just… sad. Some of the contributing factors were absolutely out of Matt and PPs hands, but the majority of these were (now, as well as then) solely PP’s doing.

The way he explicitly called out GW in the article was so distasteful it put off any possible interest I had in that game.

Their hyper focus on the competitive side has put me off the game. It is also ridiculous how Neo Mechanica is impossible to buy. So much put into it design wise, it seems like a waste

mAsOgYnY

F GW

“Play like you’ve got a pair” was an awesome slogan and page 5 was legendary. Please don’t feed into the she nonsense that’s infected so many gaming IPs. It’s not misogynistic. And even if it was, who gives a fuck?

Like your shit! Keep doing what your doing!!!!