About Erron Black's throw animation: if it looks like the recoil is fake, that's because it is. It's not the motion of a guy firing guns, it's the motion of a motion-captured actor miming gunfire while waving prop guns. It's a symptom of Netherrealm's over-reliance on mocap.
I think the point is "this looks like kids flailing nerf guns because it basically is just kids flailing nerf guns". If they worked from scratch, they would have more ability to consciously add those small details over the hours and hours spent making animations. But no, netherrealms says "just rely upon the 5 seconds of actions of a mo cap actor with a nerf gun"
@@Felix.Fictus But they'd have to actually use their money to hire someone who actually knows how to proffesionally use guns. They were probably cutting corners with some things in the game. (Not defending, just thinking of an explanation).
*Looks through the old comments* "It's because MK is trying more realistic approach than the other fighting games!" and "It's only like that for the frames" Me: Lol what?
ONE THING 10:48 a "pistol whip" IS done with the barrel or in the case of a revolver, the frame closest to the cylinder. pistol whipping with the grip is done with slide action pistols because they are more prone to jamming when you potentially dent the slide by hitting a hard surface (skull) with it. if you have ever looked into it, you can see that actually the classic pistol whip with the revolver is a devastatingly powerful attack which can easily end up killing a man in 1 or 2 strikes (its on par with brass knuckles). the relatively light modern handguns are made with polymer frames and aren't nearly as solid in construction meaning that the ONLY way to do effective damage on par with the revolver pistol whip is to add spikes to the bottom of the mag (like in equilibrium) or in the case of Red Hood, he affixes a sort of taser to the bottom of the grip. that aside i agree with your points about lazy looking animations with very little follow-through or "weight" to them.
Generally you might use the grip of a revolver if, say... you ran out of ammo and don't have time to reload. In that instance you'd do WAY more harm with the heavier, bulkier end of the gun by using the barrel as a club's grip. Since Erron is using loaded guns for his pistol whip it'd be better to whip with the barrel or the frame. More or less I'm saying that you're right, just with a couple caveats for special circumstances like your gun being empty.
8:49 JESUS CHRIST, someone sat down and made this and looked at it in the end of the 3 minute session and thought "Yeah that looks fine, people who play NRS games lack critical view of things anyway."
I’m here commenting because I watched this video nearly 5 years ago when it came out and just suddenly remembered it while trying to find something to eat in the fridge…life’s strange.
It's amazing how not only did the MK team learn NOTHING from Erron Black, but somehow made his godawful animation look decent in comparison to Peacemaker.
DUDE! Have you seen MK11 official story trailer? Looks like they watched your stuff about animations and all this rant about Erron Black. Don't know much about animation quality, but I am goddam sure they gave him oversized guns instead of real size revolvers. But hey- that's a start, amirite?
As much as I love MK I gotta agree with the analysis here. Erron Black was my most anticipated new character but for some reason I just felt like something was off while playing him. You made it abundantly clear what that thing was. I think this channel is very valuable as it just goes to show you how important animations are and what aesthetics can do to enhance a games experience
To everybody that says "who cares about animations" (in a videongame lol) keep in mind that its just like having a good movie with a shitty cast. It can ruin the movie. And for video games that are more based on animations it can ruin the games aswell. It looks like NRS is improving in the animations department as seen with Redhood! Gives me more hope for MK11
I say who cares because he literally gives no reason for why the animations are bad. All of his complaints on the stances are subjective statements. Saying cowboys have a specific stance is so dumb that I can’t even take that seriously. Especially when he goes on to say that he would make his stance like a SF character who isn’t even a cowboy. That’s a whole contradiction. Saying his revolvers are too small, is again, a subjective statement & he bases this on games that aren’t even fighters, where hit boxes are way more important. He compares to Chris from MVC3 but MVC has a more cartoon-ish art style, this is an argument made based in pure opinion. Saying his shooting animation is too fast is, you guessed it, a subjective statement. The move is fast because it’s supposed to be advantageous for the user. An animations frame data is more important than his subjective idea of the animation in this case because he can only make an argument of opinion, not fact. This is a video game that completely ignores physics & realism to a degree. Comparing his guns to real guns is ridiculous. We don’t compare guns in a FPS to real guns, & those claim to be realistic. See how easy it is to pull an argument by loosely comparing 2 things that are only similar because they have guns? That’s what this whole video is.
Dude, nice irony and strawmen you have there, going for a yard sale? :^] You're hopping around the main statements in the video too hard, the comparison between Erron and the SF character was to show his idea of a clear pose and how you can expand with better animation from that point onwards. Also "Saying his revolvers are too small, is again, a subjective statement" it's a yes and a no at the same time, you might like the smaller guns, or you might like bigger guns yes, but looking at the MKX gameplay you can clearly see that more saturated and a bit bigger guns would've made more justice to the gunslinger stance, there is almost no point in him hitting people with the guns when he looks like he could do an equal job even without them. A lot of animation critique could be seen as subjective because it's based on visual examination, but you're not going anywhere with the conversation if all you do is complain on the subjectivity and decide to strawman on every point, you didn't even tell your own ideas on how he could develop his thinking on animation, nor did you compare SP DW's comments and ideas to your own and the existing media, to create a more clear and analytical outcome for your own comment of his critique.
vili rantala This is a comment section. Not a critique the critique section. If I cared to actually help develop his thinking on animation, my points would still hold true. In fighting games, frame data is more important than animation. This is not debatable. I'm not saying animation isn't important because it is, but on to my "strawmen" The SF pose is the exact same. He wasn't using the pose as saying how you can "expand with better animation". It's literally the same pose. He even says "motion comes from his shooting arm, so I'd like to highlight that back arm".... So Erron Black has a shooting arm now? I thought he used 2 guns. Now that we're debating this, in hindsight, this would seem like a cover up for blatantly copying the SF pose after claiming cowboys have a specific stance, then taking the stance from someone that isn't a cowboy, but i'll give him the benefit of the doubt & say that he just likes that pose. Bigger guns is purely subjective & you even go on to make a subjective statement, while trying to state it as a fact. "looking at the MKX gameplay you can clearly see that more saturated & a bit bigger guns would've made more justice to the gunslinger stance" yet his examples in the video are implying that he wants "telegraphed poses so you can see where (s)he's firing" The point of the gunslinger stance is him having quick firing attacks. He has some really damaging combos involving those attacks. If they would have made them slow & telegraphed then his Gunsliger variation would be the revolver equivalent of the Marksman variation. Slow firing, telegraphed shots. Have you played MKX? I have. At a competitive level. The Gunslinger variation wouldn't even be the same or as good if it had "telegraphed shots" & slower animations.
I can't believe that this character was animated by a development company that has been making fighting games for over two decades. It's a sad day when a cheap anime fighter with a poverty budget has better animation than a triple-A fighter like MKX.
because when people see things they don't like they claim it's lazy and act as if game companies are dictators rather than just... not buying games they dislike
one ring to rule the magicarp What if they like it and want it to improve and acknowledge its flaws by constructive criticism nowadays with information so widespread we make our own entertainment if we don’t bitch and complain nothing changes stop being a close minded five year old
close minded 5 year old? really? name calling because I say something you disagree with? honestly, I have to agree, calling people out on bullshit is important, however this is different, this isn't some company that is trying to squeeze every last penny out of you, it's a company that is working on a budget, apealing to the masses, and focusing on making a good game as opposed to making the game an unplayable peice of trash wearing make-up. Yes you have the right to critique, but should you really treat telling a large company that they did animation in a way you didn't like, as if it were a problem like EA squezzing it's customers dry?
Micolash Host Of The Nightmare Nitpicking? Mate animation and character designs are some of the more important aspect of a fighting game, only after depth, complexity and balance.
Since Erron Black is returning in MK 11, will you make a video on him? I think it would very interesting to review his animations in a new game and compare them to the older ones :)
At 5:27 it says his name is Face but I couldn't find Face nor Freed so idk what game they are from Edit: Someone in the comments said the game is Battle Fantasia
The gun size is one of the most insignificant, nitpick complaint I've ever seen. His gun size is just fine, because while MK is ridiculous it has some grounds in reality in terms of the style it's always had and that's what makes it special. Overly large revolvers or ridiculously overexaggrrated stances wouldn't work for Erron Black simply for the fact that in much similar styles the cowboy is cool by not doing much at all.
I can agree with you on that, though I see his point with why larger gun size would express the guns better and show that they're actually there in his hands. But I think that they could've done better without making his guns larger. That is, as he stressed before, key frames. If they had to cut down the amount of frames to demonstrate how quick the attacks were, at least make each frame express the attack more as if you were drawing it on paper. You wouldn't just draw a blur of motion, or the moment just before he fires the gun while he's in an awkward stance.
Here's what I think: If your only criticisms are nitpicks, then it means most of everything is fine and you went for the very minor stuff. In other words, useless.
There's still ways to make his gun stand-out, like colors or poses, the point was that most of the time you can't tell what he's doing with his guns and making it bigger is just one way to fix it Plus how is a slightly larger gun sillier than Kung Lao's hat or Jax and his metal arms, hell one of the characters is a fusion of three cyborgs and I'm only talking about weapons here I'm not even touching on the character designs (except Triborg but he is the weapon), it's not made to be at least somewhat realistic in any way
To be fair, in the story mode, Erron Black is the biggest idiot ever. I still remember that embarassing scene when he tried to shoot Kung Jin who was way far in the back, but Takeda was in the way, so Erron Black used a big brain move - he....charged head-on, with his pistols facing forward. The worst thing is that Takeda could've easily grabbed him, run all the way to the other side so there's even more distance between Erron and Kung Jin, but instead all he does is go for Erron's legs, make him lose balance then have Erron start on the left side of the screen. That scene was just moronic, no matter how you put it.
Honestly, I wasn’t able to see how E.B.’s animations needed improvement at first, but once you compared him to Red Hood, it became painfully obvious! 😂
I actually like the decision of MK to use quickdraw and actual sized revolver. but its a mixed feeling, its kinda like seeing a walking Frankenstein monster, you see something familiar as "real" (im not quite sure how realistic the gunmanship is, all i can find in YT is quickdraw competition with blanks or bob munden's gun show) handgun shooting with weird punches and kicks. the punch and stances well lets say MK is ingrained with it from the very beginning. no surprise there.
I hate that McCree has ruined the character archetype of the gunslinger forever since idiots now reduce every single cowboy inspired character to "lol high noon".
Mvc2, blazblue, persona 4 arena, arcana heart, battle Fantasia, and the last blade. I really wish you would credit the names of the games you include, cause that’s 2 minutes and 20 seconds in and 6 different series that you haven’t mentioned by name once, which really sucks
I agree with your assessment. Erron Black had a decent look and feel to him, but the poor animations and voice acting really brought him down. Such a shame.
What kills me with these discussions is how SIMPLE and obvious so much of this should’ve been in production. But at the same time I feel like so much of NRS animation problems come from NOT wanting to supposedly look too much like Street Fighter, which is absolutely absurd.
I used to play Erron a lot. Gunslinger variant, too. This was a cool video, brought up a lot of points I never thought about. Though I dig how you barely see the guns in combos. Fastest hands in the...netherrealm?
Judging from comments it's all nitpicky, idle stance is fine and quickdraw is supposed to be very quick because it's a quick pased game. Fine, then explain me why his idle stance looks like his reaching hand is pulled by puppet string? If you can't make guns more visible because game needs to be quick pased, then... why even bother giving him a guns? The only time his guns are remotely visible during gameplay is while using throw (and it's animation looks like he pew pews instead of shooting his opponent) which could be replaced with punches. While Abi's idea of showdown stance looks a little silly it's much better gameplay wise. Currently you can't see what Erron is going to do because he has no key poses and choice of his color pallet makes him blend with the enviroment on some maps. That also means his opponent can't really prepare for his actions. I like Erron's design, but the execution is just bad. Along with his almost nonexistent screen time during story mode it makes him rather forgetable. I won't complain if he doesn't return in mk11.
When you talk pistol whipping it depends on the fire arm. Realistically with any fire arm holding it by the barrel and using the butt end as a hammer isn't a good idea due to accidental discharge (that idea came from the era of single shot weapons interesting read!). Using the barrel of the fire arm is a more modern way of doing it because it allows a more precision when going for a target on the body [finger off the trigger of course]. But with revolvers especially single shot it wouldn't be used by any sane man, because the cylinder can be fragile after many uses. Anyway, just found the channel, love the analysis keep it up!!
Actually A.B.I. those who say they use weapons in MK aren’t REALLY using them to their intended purpose. They’re like the classic TMNT cartoon, who just brings them out for show.
I played this game for years and never noticed anything wrong with the animation, compared to say Tekken, MkX sounds and looks really good.Could be better, yes, no reason to bash it like you do, you seem very biased.
I think the reason you didn't notice is because the animations go by so quickly, especially since NRS animation has no anticipation in their movement like most other fighters
yes. It is not hard for people with design experience to become biased. it is the expert bias. Firm critics more easily spot trope/filmography problems in films since they watch hundreds very carefully, chefs note ingredients and thoroughness of preparation, writers spot pacing and characterization issues. Once you have the experience, you see the problems, and thus you can see the carelessness of others.
1 - I never noticed anything wrong, it feels just weird to me such a harsh critique when me and all my friends were never bothered by the quality of the animation.It's not the content per se, just the tone he used. 2 - That's also completely possible, I'm not a native english speaker, lol.
I feel like erron black's outfit design was horrible, but that could just be netherrealm not wanting to animate baggier clothing. he's a gunslinger, not a chipendale dancer
yea most of these points seem very subjective. Like MK strays away from other fighting games by being more realistic and cinematic. While i do think some of the animations are rough, a lot of good examples from your previous video. This one doesn't seem to convince me. Your entire section about his guns is so weak. The guns are to scale, because they didnt want them to be too ridiculous. The sounds of the guns pretty much tells you when you are getting hit, and they are fast for the gameplay reason of him mixing you up with multiple attack strings using his guns. I know you focus on the animatoin, but the great sound design of MK fills in a lot of the "hidden" gaps you find in his animations.
The stances and animations are NOT realistic. Sugarpunch went into detail last vid about how so many attack animations lack the flow or muscle movement of actually doing the action. Games like Street Fighter and other examples used follow basic animation principles for replicating movements and exaggerate them for visual flair when appropriate. MK basically emulates the same shoddy animations from the 90s. As for Erron's guns, the problem with them being to scale is that they are borderline invisible during animations. This is why Capcom increases the size of guns for Resident Evil characters even though they are to scale in the original games. You do have a point that the sound design makes up for some of the shortcomings, but that still doesn't make all these shortcomings excusable when MK is the top selling fighting game. It has a bigger budget than most of the games Sugarpunch compared it to, and yet they do their animations significantly better.
I know this video is "old" but I will tell you the problem of the pose you made: Exagerated. He doesn't look like somebody ready for a quickdraw, he looks like Sub Zero. In fact, the only difference between Sub Zero and you pose are their hands.
The nit picks here are dumb. Mk is ‘sort of’ basing this on realistic fighting styles. Doing any of his suggestions will make the game unplayable. Mk will have to fundamentally change everything about their playing style to do this. This was an award winning fighting game. Also, wasn’t it the top selling fighting game? Why should mkx change their style to be like the ones that they are dominating?
Okay I'm sorry but the way you said you'd pose Erron looks hilariously bad, like I actually burst out laughing, if that were in the real game I would never win a match against Erron Black because I'd be too busy losing my shit
This video is well edited and brings interesting points to the table, but in all I can't really agree with the points maid. But it's just my opinion in the end of the day so if you wish to read my thoughts I'll continue writing. All in all the animations are very clumsy looking when he's brawling I can agree to that , but the gun play and guns themselves, I personally find them really fitting and powerful due to the sound that goes with them. The animation looks sharp and powerful , the gun isn't visible , well it doesn't need to be when your opponent needs to be guessing your next move , if he can't see your gun then your doing your job well slinging your gun around like a maniac. The animation may not be up to the quality of some others but what is here feels fitting and cracking with style when the guns are used. The melee though I agree does look sloppy but the gun play for me looks perfect for what it is.
Spyro The DragonBeetle But what about the recoil? Is or nonexistant or simply exaggerated. And yes, for "reality" purposes i see trying that your guns aren't visible. But this is a fighting game, you need to see the guns, and not that predicting bullshit (basically because no matter how good you're at predicting, there's sometimes that you can't predict something or someone and that's where reflexes and actual key poses take place)
I get that you don't want to discuss mk11, but dude. Erron Black has new and way far more improved animations. He has best ones in entire game in my humble opinion!
Loved this breakdown but please mix your BGM quieter for future uploads, felt a bit frustrated through the whole video since it competes with your narration too much.
@@KashewKiddo3826 the thing with Hol Horse is that he is doing the posture because he likes cowboys. I am not kidding , Araki said that Hol Horse pretty much nerfed Emperor by been a cowboy poser.
This perfectly explains why Jason is one of the few characters that feels any good to play as for me in MKXL, the animations actually fit him unlike the rest of the characters
I see his weird animations when I watch MKX gameplay and then realise how Jason isn't meant to know much about moving his body in the most effective way
@@scottyj8655 If we're talking about the Remake Jason. Or the Video Game Jason, much as he is supposed to be mobile, cause Gameplay Reasons, it still feels... *like a Big Guy swinging Weapons.* Not sure how to phrase that.
@@Berd-Wasted. Jason has known how to use a crossbow since part 3, always puts bodies in weird jumpscare spots at the end of each movie, built a shrine for his mom in part 2 and that cabin in general was built by him, hell in part 4 he constantly tries to grab the machete out of that girl's hand but keeps hesitating because she's slashing it at him. I think he knows how to use his body just fine. Sorry for the long comment.
bud389 MK is literally a game made by weebs. Not that you can't dislike NRS or Nintendo's handling of their fighting games, or who ever they farm out their fighting games for. ... I generally like mixes of Asian and American-European stuff, which is why I like Legend of Zelda, as a Japanese developed example. I also like Skullgirls as an attempt by Stateside people to make an anime fighter. Granted, Japanese games has often had "Western" on the payroll and contributing since Sega has existed if not earlier.
Gonna have to look this one up myself, really liked Cody in SFIV and he animated quite nicely there, I've can't think of too many instances where animation downgrades for a character in a street fighter game.
@SavageGrenadier25 I agree with you to the extent that MK's focus is on that over the top realism, however, I think it is more important for a fighting game to look good rather than fit it's style all too much. MKX in particular has the most style in the series, after Armageddon that is, but it's animation looks the least interesting or well made.
I don't agree, Robin's second attack of his Crouching 1 - 2 combo has his sword's movement barely visible, his crouching 2 lacks anticipation, and although his super has a great beginning and end, I find the middle part a bit... Awkward, like the devs weren't sure what to put there to paddle some time leading to the finish
There's even a reason for the the overall limb size of the characters in SF series, it is that way so the players can see better when an attack is reaching, it has a function beyond aesthetics
@@sirjeanpepper2492 But 2D fighters also have small pauses after a hit which you can clearly see their pose, plus something like Guilty Gear didn't have oversized hands until Xrd, and while Xrd does use models instead of sprites, they try to make them look like sprites...
@@Lukmendes he means 3d in a gameplay sense. Just in general fighting games that have 3d gameplay have longer startup animations so the oversized hands aren't necessary for helping recognise attacks. Also gear doesn't rely on the hands as visual indicators except for slayer and kind of jam. It relies on the weapons the characters use that gives them distinct and recognisable attacks.
Dr.Sir Bruce Armstrong Mother Fucker The Third when someone wishes the entire Team that worked on the last Jedi (with the exception of Mark Hamill) cancer that is laughable
Woah, this is pretty useful and informative for my project, I didn't even realise stuff like this was important. Thanks man, just shows I need to pay more attention
The problem with Netherealm animation is that it isn't enough over-the-top, the realistic character and stage design is nice, but nothing else is realistic about their games, so they should drop the stiff and uninspired realistic animation and go for something more exaggerated and stylized.
but relatively realistic martial arts has almost always been their calling card. Back in the 2D games, Midway would mo-cap the characters using real martial artists. Heck, they wanted Van Damme to mo-cap Johnny Cage. The gritter fighting style (sans special moves) was part of what separated MK from SF back in the day.
Quadraxis This has always been miku biggest gripe with the MK series as a whole, since it's inception. I can't get over the stiff as a board animations.
To me, NRS games are an e-sports to watch, and the beautiful realistic designs make their games the only fighting games I _can_ watch. VF, SC, SF, Tekken, SSB all look laughable to me. I hope they never follow the line you suggested.
