Really great video! I think one of the integral part that many upcoming extraction games get wrong is the balancing of 'stakes'. The often heard take is "let's make tarkov but casual & accessible" - which often leads to removing the inherent stakes from the core loop, which ultimately breaks down the motivations, since the loot loses value - and ultimately it breaks down the interplay of different elements that you outlined.
First off...just discovered your videos. Watched quite a few now...all tip top. In regards to this....I just gotta say, man...The Cycle: Frontier was so damn good. Sci-fi Tarkov with the timer removed. They made Extraction dangerous by drawing attention to it and showing enemies where you were extracting. Brilliant. I loved everything about that game, except the cheaters. A real shame. They singlehandedly killed that game. I am hoping Marathon takes a few cues from The Cycle. I am excited for that one. Cheers!
The interesting thing for me is paying a high 'cost' and what that does as a teacher of valuable lessons - I love the fact that these games have a serious cost for failure and that it acts as a means of helping to reinforce more intended mechanics. The psychology behind cost/loss and its effect on player behaviour has been too discounted recently in modern games.
Think it is cool how far we have come in gaming, That extraction base games could finally break through,. I remember in 2000 when phantasy star online, tried something similar, When you would die teammates could take the gear and stuff you earned it would fall for free for all. Back then was patched out later. Also they dabbled with some pvpve for few months, but dial up limitations. And cheating. But they showed a future potentially back then you could see there was something massive lurking in the mode. Then when division 1 dark zone came out, It really showed what could've been done back then. Dark zone definitely had flaws , from unbalanced gears and risk rewards. And cheating. Yet when you we're in a squad or squadron. That Was something special we could see the future getting brighter. Torkov and they current ones just now getting their. Showing next generation. There will be a game that looks at that history and goes this what needs to happen. It then will be one of biggest game for a decade. One thing a future extraction shooter or RPG needs, is servers that eliminate cheating 99.9 percent of time. Servers need be world class. A very strong social hub in game. Clans halls, personal houses ECT. Stuff besides just the weapons and gear you can get. But long-term stuff to show off to your friends.
I'm very interested in the extraction loop's applications to offline experiences like Zero Sievert. It's like a dungeon crawler with a very large, persistent dungeon. Big opportunities for co-op pve as well I think, which avoids a lot of the issues and risks inherent with a competitive hardcore online pvp game.
A great dissection of Tarkov. I think tarkov's extraction mechanic is not it's biggest strength and tarkov is the sum of it's parts. While tarkov and hunt showdown were technically the first extraction shooters, I think a better precursor to extraction shooters would be XCOM and jagged alliance. Metal Gear 5 Phantom Pain, having a base of operations and going on missions, gathering soldiers and supplies, upgrading... Playing these games, I would always get the dream of a modern FPS multiplayer game with a extensive meta-game mechanics similar to these. So when I played tarkov, I felt like my dream has come true in a way. I still think there are plenty of games to be made here: Imagine a jagged alliance type of game with FPS gameplay. Run PMC operations in a locale such as the middle east, hire soldiers, train them, gather gear and supplies, build a PMC headquarters, complete missions for various factions to influence the region and meta game with all the other players around the world. Short term progression, long term progression, immersive setting, survival, looting, risk and reward, sandbox with success for all player types, simply play as a soldier for hire to a faction(easy entry), build your own company or join someone else's. No need to wipe progression, just add expansions to new settings: Africa, South-East Asia, Brazil, Ukraine, US civil war2, Irish civil war2. All I need is 300 million dolllars, 300 experienced developers and 500g of high quality freshly roasted coffee beans every week for the next 5 years.
I want to also emphasize how in tarkov the flea market allows a great feeling of a player driven game loop and value driven strategy. Not enough shooters take advantage of a player driven economy.
Really enjoyed the video. I found myself going "well what about X" and then you'd immediately cover my concern. Not only is it a great explanation but it makes me want to take the plunge into Tarkov. While the death mechanic shouldn't be nerfed due to it reducing the stakes and value of loot if it is, what do you think about adding a guaranteed trash reward for completing a daily mission? Like if the player completes a specific daily mission in the level and they get a random reward back at base. Not knowing what it is while you're in the game shouldn't hurt the game too much, and since trash is valuable in extraction shooters, a guaranteed reward would help with the feeling of aways making progress/retention which would appeal to a larger audience.
Glad you liked it! I think systems like that daily one you mentioned can go a long way to softening the blow. One of the systems I wasn’t able to get to is the idea of “scavs” in tarkov, where you effectively get “free loot” by playing as a non-primary, disposable character for a session. this is an opportunity for players to regain without risking loss. Can totally see how lower tensioned missions which just require you to “visit X location” and it doesn’t matter if you die would work well.
Hey Andrew! Great points all around. I'm an early stage Venture Investor at the intersection of gaming, ai, and blockchain and part of what I think you might have missed is some upcoming extraction shooters with built in blockchain mechanics that enable players to truly own items and can even earn money by looting and surviving. For instance, Deadrop, Shrapnel, and RedDogGames are all coming out with new AAA extraction shooters where all the loot and characters are (behind the scenes) NFT's that players can level up, sell or trade on open market place! As a result, it really makes for some sweaty gameplay - the loot you bring into the game is on also the line. KAP Games using the same mechanics for their upcoming pirate game (Captain and Company), where a small percentage of the population are captains that own their ships, and the rest of the players are the motley crew that can earn loot for capturing vessels.
I don’t personally believe that cod did the extraction shooter correctly and showed that an extraction shooter could be done by a big company since it was such a dumbed down version of tarkov
