I love how Asher saw the Black Heart, the Vex's attempt to simulate The Veil, and was basically like "You fools! You did it all wrong, let me show you" and manually simulates it better than the entirety of the Sol Divisive.
I don't know if Asher is still alive, dead, or fully assimilated down there in the Vex Network, but no matter what he is right now I sorely wish I could give him a medal of honor. He's earned it.
Meanwhile, Toland nearly got his entire fireteam killed so he could just screw around the ascendant plane, only taking enough time to say something cryptic and disappear. Toland is the virgin in this scenario.
What i love about the final room where Asher simulated the veil, is that it implies that Asher holed up in what is essentially Brakions attic to build a paracausal simulation of something that the vex in the past tried AND FAILED to successfully make Not only did this madman walk into the Vex's personal library make himself a membership card and did what the Vex failed at in under 3 years, he did it directly under the nose of his greatest enemy Mans arm isnt the only thing made of metal
I can only assume that this indicates that Mir has somehow accessed the Vex's ability to simulate across time and space in order to create multiple versions of himself all working to simulate the Veil
Fun little detail: Mu is the 12th letter of the Greek alphabet. Specimen 12 was the Vex platform simulating the Ishtar team. You know, the ones where 39 copies of them escaped into the network. The pair of Quarantined vex? Gamma and Iota? 3rd and 9th letters, respectively. Is it important? Probably not. But it's a cute little detail.
Didn't Ashir say at the end that he doesn't want to be rescued? That he will stay in the vex network and learn all of its secrets? Mithrax warned that the sheer magnitude of information and "Truth" would destroy him. But Ashir said something like "I will not become truth -- truth will become ME!"
@@H240909he’s annoying and he totally fakes an accent and the emphasis he puts on certain words is so weird. Bro definitely has an ego bigger than his small peen. Can’t watch his vids more just go to the comments and look at the discussions there and people correcting him lol.
Does this just make Asher arguably one of the Greatest Warlocks if not THE greatest Warlock ever? Is it valid to say he's in contention for greatest lightbearer to have existed?
In terms of "long game," yeah. The mad lad sacrificed his path as a guardian to learn more about the vex, drank radiolarian fluid to discern it's nature, and when his time was coming to an end due to the vex incursion into his body and ghost, pulled a "no u" and inserted himself into the network to break the whole vex infrastructure down to to serve his need to know what is going on. THEN he hacked a harpy to tell us what's going on. AND THEN TOOK THE TIME TO SET UP BRAKION FOR DESTRUCTION BECAUSE HE PISSED HIM OFF. My guy has been playing move 16 while everyone else was on move 3.
Asher Mir's body was slowly being taken over by the Vex, so he pulled an Uno Reverse card and decided to take over a chunk of the Vex network so he could keep up with his research. Asher Mir routinely sassed and belittled even the most powerful Guardians with impunity. Asher Mir almost singlehandedly kept Io's Vex, Taken, and Cabal invasions under control, needing only minimal, barely-competent help from his favorite Assistant. Asher Mir confused the brilliant Ikora Rey with textbooks on multidimensional geometry and Vex transformation phenomena. Asher Mir ordered a hit on a powerful Vex mind and built a wall mount for its arm, and ceremonial urn in case its arm was incinerated into ashes. Asher Mir is: the Most Interesting Guardian in the Solar System.
@@dembro27 put a hunter in Asher’s shoes and they’ll make an LMG with an AI in it to prevent themselves from going insane. Put a Titan in Asher’s shoes and I kid you not, they’ll turn themselves into a shield. Funniest thing I’ve ever seen
@@blackout2189 He may be the one variable the Witness doesn’t see coming. I can imagine it now: the Witness will exit the portal on the side of the Traveler, beat and battered, nearly dead. Looking for his armies and ships to save them, only for them all to be obliterated, pieces of House Salvation, Xivu’s fleets, Shadow Legion, and the Pyramids, and all their soldiers and the hundreds of Disciples, also adrift, dead among the wreckage of they’re destroyed fleet. Only for Asher, Ana with a piece of Rasputin’s Exo, Elizabeth glaring at the one that brought her endless misery, and many others, watching the Witness die, with fear on its face. Not knowing how it’s unstoppable fleet could be decimated so quickly and ruthlessly, only for it to see Asher Mir leering with hate, the last thing it sees. Before the Guardian kills them with Sleeper Stimulate, as vengeance for the Warmind, and dealing the final blow for the safety of Sol. At least, I feel that’s how it would end.
The most important thing to understand about the Vex is that they follow Convergence and the Pattern *because* they value survival at all cost. It's always worked out for them in the Garden's non-paracausal universes before time, which is why they follow it so fervently now. But because it's survival at all cost that's at the core of them, not necessarily inherently the Patten, that the abberent Vex even exist in the first place. There are some Vex units that try to explore other avenues to survival, including the Sol Divisive but also these friendly ones we encounter, because it's not the Pattern and Convergence that's truly at the heart of them. TL;DR this mission proves that the Pattern is just the method to the Vex's ultimate goal, survival at all cost.
Between this and the mention fo Aberrant Vex by Osiris in Seraph, it further convinces me Bungie is laying the groundwork for a Vex splinter faction that more or less aligns with us because they see NOT fighting us- or at least fighting the Witness- as their best means for survival.
@@GazingTrandoshan it would be if the seasonal storyline didn’t get retired. But since it will be then those who come after won’t get this context on what the veil is
Im so sick of hearing about this. Damn. Its been made very clear that the mystery is a big part of this year leading into Final Shape and how we will follow the Witness.
@@masterofthelyokianmonsters2886 I see you didn't read the Twab a few weeks ago. There's going to be a quest that answers the questions for all lightfall players and won't be retired. Now you can stop this narrative of "new players won't get context"
I like Asher as a character. Most characters are either unrealistically nice to you or unrealistically mean. Asher is rude but that’s just the way he is.
The veil in the simulation looks like a melding of both “light” branches and the “dark” formless together. where the light and dark meet in the middle the two merge into a strange shape. Kinda looks like two colliding structures merging into one.
it does. i think there was a lot of visual storytelling this time around and that's why people missed so much and have so many questions. this hourglass shape, it was either outright mentioned in dialogue or in graffiti or murals, seems to be all over the place. we've already had the "balance light/dark" plot going for a while but Lightfall has practically screamed it.
Based off of this, it could be that the Veil has something to do with bridging, smudging, or erasing the "line between Light and Dark". I have no evidence to support this, however, and I don't think I could find any if I tried.
@@cainprescott4937 I wish I was more awake and could quote lore (youtube doesn't like links anyways) but I've been pouring over old lore. one of the earliest mentions of "veil" i found was D1 lore linked to Maya Sundaresh, so I 100% am behind that all of this has been planned for a long time. things just naturally changed with development because that's just what happens whether it be a game or a movie or whatever. If you look at the portal the witness made, it seems to be made with light and dark and the veil seems to be that "thin line" we have had mention of for so long. combine that with the detail that strand is like the fabric of reality that we just perceive as strings, I think that the veil is a physical manifestation of that line.
The "Vuvuzela" running gag from Asher Mir is one of the many reasons he is my favorite NPC. I miss how he used to complain about his head hurting from all the noise after we completed a public event on Io. Or the pure joy in his voice when we destroyed Brakion countless times in the strike.
About rescuing Asher from the network.. I remember at the end of the Avalon Node mission today (completing this week’s vexcalibur exotic quest’s first step, though can’t remember if it was triggered by the final subject/intrinsic chest or the end of the mission itself) there is dialogue of Asher telling Mithrax that he doesn’t wish to be rescued, only wanting more access (which is why we were murking Brachion.) Because he’s seeking to “become one with truth” deeper in the vex network. His signal disappeared after that, according to both Mithrax and the second (last) step of the exotic quest at the war table.. I don’t think we’ve seen the last of Asher, but I don’t think we’re liberating him in Avalon.
In a Instagram post of the lead bungie concept artist on destiny they have more of a description of the veil than anywhere else "physical manifestation of incomprehensible cosmic energy. Window into the mind and memory of the universe”
So, first of all, this is *exactly* what the Veil can be described as. Secondly, a friend of mine recently pointed out that just because Bungie didn't hand the exposition to us on a silver platter, the context clues still very definitely smack you in the face in the campaign, but most of us, myself included, missed it because we were too busy waiting for the exposition on the aforementioned silver platter. Instead, they were subtle, and it happened something like this: You walk around a corner on Neomuna, and suddenly you're in the Vex Network. That is quite simply not possible without something that can help transcend the one thing that separates the paracausal forces of Light from those of Darkness. Namely, domain of life and physical versus domain of death and thought. Not a perfect border, but to put a physical body in a data world without losing everything the way Asher Mir did *and* without any Splicing? Yeah, it shouldn't be possible. Not for us, and not for the citizens in the CloudArk. So, how is it done? What is bridging this gap? The Veil. The oft-referenced line between Light and Dark that has been called "So very thin" on more than one occasion. And it just got a *lot* thinner. My friend realized in that moment *exactly* why the Witness couldn't have the Veil. I'm sure someone could have stopped to tell us something about it, but in the grand scale of things here, we quite simply don't rank high enough to warrant an explanation. We're just sent to shoot things like good little toy soldiers because the chain of command is currently in shambles, the world is ending, and really, who cares what it is so long as the other guy ending the world doesn't get what they want out of the deal? Not exactly the Witch Queen scenario where we can stop and have big revelations while everything is on fire.
I just want to know what body part asher called mithrax at the end. I don't think we'll need to rescue him from the vex. I think the vex will ask us to rescue them from him, considering his last statements to mithrax at the end.
If you look at the word Avalon itself, it's considered a place and a definitions. As a place, Avalon is a magical land/possible paradise where Excalibur was forged and King Arthur was taken after his death. As a definition, Avalon means isle of Apples. While Apples do mean long life and youth, Kate Christian context would add the Adam and Eve part where apples hold forbidden knowledge. The apple might be whatever Asher's research is.
While avalon is of course a mythical place from arthurian legend, the fact that the quest takes place in a digital world is peculiar. Because there exists a (kinda old) book series called Otherland, in which a secret caballe of people calling themselves the order of the grail create a fully immersive Cyberspace, in which Avalon is a central narrative element.
Wild out there speculation time: Asher Mir can use the Vex to break the Dreaming City's time loop. Compared to the Nez-quik plot point, it's not that out of left field. This is a Mara focused season. The endless night was a Vex trick. Who's to say Asher wasn't studying that to free up more Awoken resources for Sol's defense. You have to remember, based of Failsafe's brief time in the Vex network, time is not to scale in there; a few minutes can be the equivalent to a couple centuries. So he would have plenty of opportunity to create and test predictive models.
It would explain the harpy in the splicer final mission what better way to study it closer and gather more data than when the vex are attacking and everyone is busy fighting where one lone harpy is by a console Then the none hostle frames are prototype to allied vex
Now that we've seen it in an official capacity, the Veil's structure reminds me of universal spacetime diagrams, which are visual representations of the hypothesized lifespans of a universe. They all have that same, distinct "hourglass" shape. Makes me wonder if that was intentional, given that Darkness and Light created this universe... Could the Veil be a map? Or a diagram of the universe?
Given how little we know about the veil, I wouldn’t be surprised if this was possible. My main question is why would the witness care if it was a map? His main goal seems to be interacting with the traveler, and it seems that we’ll see that play out in final shape. Basically, where would the witness go that he hasn’t already been or deemed unworthy of going to?
If we could (and did) rescue Saint 14 from the Corridors of Time and the Infinite Forest, surely we will find a way to recover Asher Mir from the Vex Network
@@xvx_k1r1t0_xvxkillme7 You’re right, he’s chosen to stay. But, there could very well be a season focused on the Vex and attaining the power of knowledge. Asher could instead reach out to us from the Vexnet, after he finds a way to do so. I feel he’d send a message to Mithraks, as he’d been able to read the messages Asher was unable to send to Eris and the Vanguard. The theoretical season could begin with the Guardian arriving in the Tower with Mithraks, Eris, and the Vanguard discussing how the Kell of Light received a message from Asher. Prompting us to investigate further and discover a way to ensure Asher’s survival with the Vex-attempting to consummate a truce with those Vex that are more independent. If Asher chooses to stay in the network to aid us, we would probably spend that season also working with Elizabeth and Osiris to decipher the information sent by Asher, as discover a way for him to move through the network without the rest of the Vex noticing. Asher may be the door to crucial knowledge, but minds like Osirs, Elizabeth, and Mithraks will be the keys needed for the doors Asher will open for us.
@Hereticsbane Season 22, perhaps? I definitely hope we get a "Season of the Mainframe". Lightfall and Season 20 have hinted pretty heavily that we'll be going to Titan in Season 21.
I am pretty sure Asher specifically says NOT to save him. I Need to double check, but I could be misquoting the dialogue. If I am remembering correctly he is STILL in there for a reason.
uh... am I imagining it or did Byf basically repeat the same line twice right at the end about the veil? o.o "Watch the Avalon node --- if it's not " Sometimes I've heard videos where the narrator will repeate a word or short phrase and sometimes I thought it was cus I was imagining it XD but I'm starting to wonder if it's more an editing error.
The sealed Vex each(?) have unique names. The first is Mu as mentioned. Two more near the end of the mission are Iota and Gamma. I wonder if there’s anything hidden there. Also are there others that I missed?
they're numbers in the greek alphabet, mu is 12, gamma and iota are 3 and 9, and specimen 12 was the platform that watched and simulated the ishtar team. not sure about gamma and iota though
I'm admittedly paraphrasing, but the line "I have been reliably informed it is not a metaphor" had me howling. I love the fact that even in the form he is, he's still my favourite grouchy science bastard.
To me it is starting to sound alot like the vex will be the key to our victory in the light vs dark saga. Think about it, all races have their role except for vex. Cabal and Fallen fight with us, Hive had the Savathûn plot who is also kind of with us in a way and vex have - nothing. Yet they clearely had a big role and it would be fitting. It started with the vex (Black Heart, Atheon) and they are looking for a way to be the winners at the end of time so sounds like we will 'Hijack' their plan eventually to win over the Witness or even cooperate with the vex. The only thing that doesn't quite fit is the taken. I put this up to them being probably originally supposed to be the veil working under the witness as the true darkness race and they may still count as that and may be the major enemy race in final shape. What do you think if you read this?
I agree on all points. The Vex represent "squaring the circle" that is The Light, and are comprised of the triangles that is The Darkness. All they need is someone to make the impossible become possible, and the Vex have done all the legwork.
As each week passes (and it's been less than a month) it's gotten more and more apparent that all of the "writing is bad" complainers are just impatient, and they rushed to review-bomb Lightfall on Steam because the campaign wasn't every single answer immediately spoonfed to them.
Something I haven't heard brought up is during the post campaign mission for the exotic machine gun, I'm maya's retreat it says that Rohan's notes contain an hourglass shape. When we look above the node there, you can see a sideways hourglass shape. Kinda looks like the veil.
I think we could get Asher out if we wanted to. The Neomuni can seemingly interact with the Vex Network via the CloudArk, and with some Splicer help from Misraaks we might be able to reach the node from Neomuna, hook up an Exo body or some other vessel, and pull Asher out into it.
And since splicer tech works through Light, and Guardians are a thing, you could take a group of Guardians, give them Splicer gear, and shove them through Neomunda’s backdoor.
It would be hilarious for Asher to suddenly find himself in an exo body in the Thrilladome. Asher: "...assistant? I demand an immediate three-point explanatory report on why my consciousness has been re-embodied in the middle of this *waves hand around arcade* frivolous waste of hardware and voltage!" Nimbus: woah...you just pulled him out of the Vex network like that? Asher: And who is this towering oaf? What are those gaudy cybernetics? And what is with that bizarre, vacuous speech pattern?! I demand explanations! Nimbus: ....y'know, maybe Osiris isn't as bad as I thought he was...
Asher went deeper into the network at the end of the quest for Vexcalibur. Mithraks pleaded for Asher to be rescued, and that delving deeper into the network would destroy him, however Asher responded by saying that all the truths he uncovers from the vex network would become him.
Asher was really bad ass throughout the mission. Mithraks explaining his actions on Io (i.e. He had to sacrifice everything to be in the Vex network) was also great. But the best memory I had with this mission happened on the night before the Commander's passing. I was playing with a few friends that we haven't played together for some time, and we laughed like crazy when Asher talked about Vuvuzela. RIP Commander.
Heads up for those of you who don’t want to use Vexcaliber all the way through the mission, if you find yourself with a pink barrier but no vex shield charge because you swapped out, don’t worry, holding guard still lets you pass through without charge.
New theory. Asher mir is going to create/become the Irrational Mind and create a whole new subsect of Vex who resist the Sol Divisive. I imagine an odd war council in the future, surrounded by Caital, Savathun, the Irrational Mind and Mithrax with probably Saint 14 at the head of the table.
Alright I got ear buds on and I swear if you listen closely at 11:40 you here like a weird squishy noise nothing against byf at all just wanted to point it out lol
@@gabrielpineirogarcia2078sagira was killed on screen in season of the hunt? (I can't remember) Osiris got stuck by xivu araths magic and sagira sacrificed herself to break him free.
@@dembro27 Could've sworn they animated it and put it in the trailer but trying to find it for the last hour and I can't. Seeing a bunch of reddit posts complaining of no animations. So I guess I stand corrected.
@@maxthejew not on-screen. Sagira died in a Lore tab, when we get there shes already dead, and presumbaly the "Osiris" we speak with might or might not laresdy have been Savathun
I hope asher is able to figure out how to damage and destroy the pyramids cause ive been hoping for that since i saw the cloud strider shoot one in a lightfall trailer.
looks like the veil was made from a “root” of the traveler like we saw in the root of nightmares raid, maybe we’ll go back to the newly formed root on that pyramid ship in the future. so the darkness is a creation of the light, which makes sense from the standpoint of their philosophies.
I’ve seen a theory floating around that the Veil and Egregore fungus are connected somehow, and I think that might be true. This is primarily based on their visual similarity and an offhand comment the devs made stating that egregore would have some connection to Strand, but it’s possible that the Veil is a sort of paracausal fruiting body, like a mushroom, and egregore spores are a kind of psychic mycelium.
The Veil really isnt that similar to Egregore. The tendrils of the Veil look much more like Branches of a Tree of Silver Wings, but even that isnt the same.
Byf, a little thing. The story arc of the Avalon node is completely finished as Asher refused Mithrax help to get out and instead used our help to gain access to the deepest parts of the Vex net. Not to become the truth but so the truth "becomes him". In the Ghostshell the Vex Network starts to tear him apart and integrate him while he reviews the simulations the Vex traced. All of them ends with the Witness winning. Asher laments that "It is how he always said, why even try It?" And his data is "spooled" into the datastream
Just to clear it up Byf(spoilers ahead for the scribetrace shell), After Asher went into the Data stream(final catalyst run for the Vexcaliber, as Mithrax tells us) he was finally merged with the vex consciousness and died, so sadly that is where his story ends. The API still has it classified so I'll handwrite the lore just to show homage to a favorite character of mine. SCRIBETRACE SHELL: "For Ghosts Who Drown in the Truth." The journey was instantaneous; such was the force of the informational mass that pulled the signal into the radiolarian vortex at the heart of the Vex network. Decompiled data from untold Eons of simulation poured into the signal, filling it to capacity. /a single mind filled with voices, billions of voices, each telling their story, now SCREAMING them/ The whorls of writhing data did not abate. They surged in endlessly, straining the signals parameters, eroding, overwriting. There was no time to adapt. A picosecond later and there was nothing left of the signal but a dim ripple of spite. /and all the stories have the same ending, shouted in a single voice, the toll of the bell that heralds the end of time/ It is as I said all along, the signal thought bitterly as it unspooled into the datastream. No one can stop it. There is no sense in even trying.
I just now got a voice line from Jisu whilst doing patrols and overloads talking about an un-partnered ghost roaming Neomuna. Could Rohan or any of the other Cloud Striders be ressurected from their cores? He also said there may be even more visiting now that we/the ghosts know were Neomuna is. @My name is Byf
I don't think he'll have merged into the network. Not completely. His personality is too strong. Who knows maybe we'll end up with a stronger, friendly Mind in like a hydra or (lol) a corrupted and mockingly changed Hobgoblin body named something edgy like Acheron. Now I'm imagining some insane rescue mission into the ACTUAL Pyramidion on a returned Io to get Asher back.
Its interesting that this node is where they go to die/be quarantined. If i renember right (someone correct me if im mistaken), Avalon was a paradise in Arthurian legend. I personally wouldnt think of a quarantine zone/deletion node and a paradise to be in the same node, especially with how vast and immeasurable the vex network is.
All of Ashers exploits this season makes me think that after the Final Shape, The Vex will be the main antagonist of the next saga. If you think about, they are still the most mysterious enemy in terms of the fact that we don't know who or what Mind "Commands" all the vex, we don't know what their Homeworld is (There are multiple Forge stars though), and we don't what their main objective or goal is. They (Possibly) are capable of wiping out timelines but we're still here.
My rando theory for the moment. Don't remember everything but just playin' with my thoughts is all :) In the beginning, both light and dark were one and overlapped. The Big Bang was a result of a broken rule between. The Gardener and The Winnower. The Gardener introduced an exponential with the intent of the flowers (life) to change and adapt, propagate without "guidance from above". Beings that didn't follow a prefigured existence and created their own. With that change, the flowers spread, they grew/culminated, changed and became the first ascendant beings. The very existence of them weakened The Garden until it collapsed. Light and dark (as we depict them) separated, no longer overlapping but still connected at the moment the separated. The moment that time began. The Darkness is the universal constant that allows for past time to continue existing in all its multiverse and The Light is the universal constant that allows for new time and futures to be shaped anew. "The final shape" is the end of time, a final stop to change and a return to something closer to The Garden separated.
The veil is a McGuffin and bungie are currently trying to figure out what the fuck to make it. I imagine daily group meetings between all departments with one job "decide what the veil is". Because bungie currently have no damn clue.
I don’t know how to get a hold of you for a idea or something I find need to be explained/looked over by a lore expert- idk if you have talked about this if so sorry but in the final mission of lightfall story ( Desperate Measures) after you fight the army of cabal and calus- (big head planet) pop up and his daughter try to 1v1 him the Veil is exposed but if you jump over the hole and not go into it you end up in the room where Rohan sacrificed himself, now that you can explore this room freely, there are 3 huge walls in the back that show some interesting art on them,nothing scannable- nothing important just art and theory’s so go look if you want and hit me with what y’all believe it means, plz be nice and have a great day
So strange, it’s almost like bungie is committed to the drip feed… weird, almost as if we’ll get more answers to the lore as the story progresses… meanwhile every LFG is constantly regurgitating your freak out on the veil. Thanks…
Remember that video on the non hostile harpy. You though maybe Asher mir possibly transformed into that harpy lol. I was like dude do you even lore, cause Asher's arm was transformed into a vex arm and harpies don't have arms lol
Hi, Byf do you think Praedyth will play a role in any of what is going on with Ashir? Correct me if I am wrong but isn’t Praedyth still alive stuck in the vex network as well in some type of type loop. Do you think it’s a possibility or any hints that the two of them could start working together?
@@xecron9116 I think you are right! If I remember correctly it was implied that he escaped the vault of glass but was still stuck in the vex network in some type of time loop when they reintroduced the no time to explain exotic pulse rifle in a secret mission.
I love byf and watch all his videos but doesn’t it seem like he repeats himself quite a lot? Doubling up on statements/questions and changing a few words.
Playing Dead Space 2 on any difficulty that isn't easy is pain I'm playing on normal it is stressful I feel mentally tired is this how everyone felt when they met nazarick in the lore😢
Asher really out here simulating a veil after refusing to be consumed by the vex network and in spite of the witness and the entire vex network Asher mir is infact a giga chad
Interesting so If the veil is capable of bringing together the physical with the metaphysical, we could potentially use it to disable and or destroy the pyramids.
