Destiny 2 Lore - Ok... Let's talk about what we know about The Veil & Lightfall's Ending Cutscenes 

and all 3 people there just sat back and watched your ghost slowly move up

@@tonybadaboni to be fair if i was the guardian id be confused as well. we just defeated a disciple of the witness and possibly won the war, when all of a sudden my ghost just starts floating to the veil and im instructed to shoot and destroy the very thing that helped me get this far. on top of this id possibly assume the ghost is going to go scan and explain to us what the veil is. our character goes through so much confusion just as nimbus and caital do, trying to figure out what the hells happening and why osiris is freaking out that we just dont have enough time to react, and enough will to make the shot.

​@@vultionsin3028 we could've just grabbed it with strand lol

@@DustoVonSusto froze it w stasis, even

Hes an isreali actor he played the maji in the mummy movies and star fleet commander in star trek discovery. Hes pretty good

I hopw not. That would eman bungoenitnentiaonlly didnt let us know to save it for fute seasons which is jsut terrible Edit: ill leav the old because its funny but heres what i was saying. I hope not. That would mean bungie intentionally didnt let us know to save it for future seasons which is just terrible.

I hope not cause seasons get vaulted so if I miss a season I’m fucked

They definitely will

​@@cbandit7715 At the same time. They've done this throughout almost all expansions with similar things and events.

​@@cbandit7715 yeah it's a pretty dirty trick from Bungie but it's better to explain it to us than to just leave us in the dark without saying anything about the lore

You don’t need to know you’re giving consent to give consent after all

that's exactly how I'm feeling - the witness is a paracausal being of unknown power after all. its schemes have evaded us on almost every occasion we've encountered them - we only prevail against the witness' followers, which only grants it's knowledge of the witness rather than actually impacting it in any way. it always feels easy to just assume the guardians are 'built different', but being played by the witness is both very possible and very very very cool

That’s a possibility, but I feel like they should’ve revealed to us that we were used. Otherwise we just think bungie botched the story.

I was thinking calus was bait too. If it's true, the witness is a better manipulator than savathuun

@@starplatinum2743 Well that wouldn't be a surprise. The Witness has been playing Savathun from the beginning after all, and she didn't realize the deception until we showed her.

I took my time and navigated the stairs to get down to the bottom. I could have just jumped and landed safely but I just felt that urge to run down the stairs. The overall area though gave me mad Portal 2 vibes. Like I was going down from the pristine and clean facility down to the forgotten depths.

10000% I said out loud to a room of no one "Man, I missed the Ishtar stuff. I hope we get more of this"

@@Lightna Glad I wasn't the only one :D

I felt Portal 2 vibes more than everything. Loved it.

I expected to be called Dr. Shim again lol

That’s what I thought too. I think Nimbus saved our Ghost by grabbing him, and if he hadn’t, Ghost would have been destroyed by the Witness

Literally took the words out of my brain

Agreed, the dialogue in that first cutscene even says link the conduit and then destroy the veil.

I think the witness didn't need calus, but used him to lure us and more specifically our ghost to the veil. calus was the bait and we ate it

@@jacdag1152 the witness did Calus so dirty

I’m of the mind that the Witness expect Calus to fail so that it could use our ghost at the most opportune time near the veil. Sending Calus to the veil ensures that either the guardian would beat him there or that Calus and the guardian would meet him there

Makes sense witness doesn't need Calus. Calus is a bafoon and he was being used.

Maybe we can close the portal using the veil, and that’s why the witness wanted it destroyed but we do not know how to do that yet

@@theyincorporated5711 I agree, I suspect Calus was just a tool to get the Guardian, or more specifically Ghost to the Veil so it could function as the connection between the Veil and the Traveler. Without Calus there, the Guardian wouldn't need to go there.

I mean with zero explanation Osiris said we couldn't follow him in anyway so I don't think that's the case

I didn’t even think about that but you’re absolutely right. Not to mention Clovis basically created pain wherever he walked. If you read the lab notebook lore from Europa’s collectibles you can just see a few example of it. Wild stuff. I’ve got to wonder what other knock of effects this created that might’ve been part of Nezarec’s grand design if it does exist. Off the top of my head, else being turned into the stranger… repeatedly looping through time and seeing failure after failure… it’s really making me question what Nezarec’s relationship to timelines is.

@@MynameisByf very good point. I think there will be a lot revealed in the upcoming raid and beyond. I’m so ready for it!

I'm not much of a Lore buff, however regarding Exos dont they also have a recurring dream of endless battle? Some walk through a field of flowers, but disregarding the peaceful scene that is we may want to look into the nightmares that impose our Exo friends. Not to mention that Cayde, in his final stashes on Titan during the Ace of Spades Exotic quest, mentioned in his entry about the Deep Stone Crypt a "long slow whisper". Would that have ties to Nezerac, as the primary way we hear his dialog are through whispers. What if the Exos are being used as a conduit for further power akin to tributes to a worm god.

@@MynameisByfon the topic of the exos vs the neomuni cloudark: there was a line by the neomuni archivist that said she could try to explain the philosophy behind strand and how we can use it to repair the cloud strider memorials or she could let us go kill stuff, specifically she mentions the philosophy of the unconscious mind. essentially, the setup of the unconscious mind states that in the same way humans physically have evolved to all have the same body plan, all humans have evolved to have the same "plan" of the mind, everything you do on instinct is driven by the unconscious mind that all humans share. the thing that requires clarification is that its very often misinterpreted to mean that all humans psychically connect to the same subconscious which is not what it actually means, saying that all humans have the same unconscious mind is like saying that all humans in existence physically all share the same left arm, left leg, right arm, right leg, torso etc etc, its a fundamental misunderstanding, we all have a body in the same way we all have an unconscious mind. however, what alot of stories like to do in order to set up their own version of the paranormal is to pretend that "actually yes, there is the objective physical world and the subjective/internal world (the unconscious mind), theres the one we experience and sense and touch; and connected to it is the one we think and feel and dream, they are both intertwined, they can both interact with each other, they can seep into one another but they are both unique, individual and equally "real". what the veil seems to be is the thing that connects the light and the darkness together (as osiris said the light deals with the physical and darkness deals with the... not physical? I guess the word would be abstract or maybe intangible? lets just go with psychic to avoid a headache), its like the interface between the body and the mind. We know it is related to the light because the ghost says it feels like the traveller (although unfortunately thats all we know about its relation to the light, I guess you could include that it was somehow linked to the radial mast "light artefact" whatever the fuck that was but at the very least we know that the veil "has" light) and, if we take the view that the darkness is destiny's take on the "domain of the unconscious mind", then we know that the veil is linked to the darkness because it is used to hold up the neomuna cloudark; the reason the people of neptune dont get the same issues we know exos have is because their minds are directly linked to an anchor point between the physical and psychic universes. it would also go on to explain how the vex mind integrated into the cloudark described at the end of the winterbite glaive quest (you know, a member of a race of unfeeling entirely calculation and deterministic "organic-ish" robots) sends us a message expressing GRATITUDE when we keep it safe from the other vex trying to "rescue" it (I should clarify, the quest seems to indicate the mind likes independence which on its own is strange and probably worth a byf video on its own but essentially it didnt want to be "rescued" by the other vex) if a vex mind is expressing gratitude then it must be emotive somehow, atleast extremely unique in ways we cant understand... or we wouldnt be able to understand if it wasnt for the fact that this specific vex mind is integrated into the same network propped up by the psychic energy of the veil. remember how the sol divisive vex under the influence of the witness began to worship the black heart and the darkness? I think this vex mind in the cloudark is an indication as to what would happen to the vex in the black garden if the witness never influenced them, they would attempt to understand the darkness and eventually would develop a "classic/psychic/feeling" mind as this vex in the cloudark has. unfortunately the only way this hypothetical view brings us any closer to understanding what the witness was trying to do is that if it needed to cross the barrier between the physical domain and the unconsious domain (whatever THAT might mean in the destiny universe) then doing what it did in the lightfall campaign seems to make some small semblance of sense. anyway, I dont know if any of this actually made sense, the only reason I know about it is because I played the game control and tried to understand the philosophy behind that and in that game its alot more explicitly an example of a "physical/unconscious" story but I hope this was an interesting read anyway

​@@fawkyou2001 Essentially it boils down the the classic Mind/Body problem. Entire schools of philosophy, and numerous Religion's theology to some extent, are based on different arguments ( more or less a philosophical interpretation of the "solution") for this. Intergeneration of it as metanarrative in Destiny is not something I had considered. Great thinking there. Darkness is the Mind and Light is the Body. The Traveller's physical form (Golfball of the gods) is comprised of the Light. Ghosts are comprised of the Traveller's Light, meaning they are literally part of it's Body. The Veil is comprised of Darkness that "feels" like the Traveller to Ghost, likely indicating that The Veil is the Traveller's Mind. It's possible that The Traveller is both Gardener and Winnower, Body and Mind. The Witness being named as such, likely indicates they Witnessed the reality behind the story of the Flower Game in the Garden. There may even be seperate compartmentalised incarnations of both Both and Mind. Now that I think about it, the Vex use the honorific of Mind for their bosses. Sufficiently powerful Vex Minds create simulations that can be manifested into reality. There's definitely something to this Mind/Body connection you've brought up. Perhaps we can attempt to connect the various races, bosses and characters to philosophical and theological scools of thought. Especially if they attempt to resolve the Mind/Body problem or are built upon the basis of such attempts.

So its essentially like vrmmo's from stuff like SAO and BOFURI.

Its also implied that normally people aren't in the CloudARK Full-time, as Nimbus mentions the "Lockdown" Having emergency bunkers with CloudARK access and Crypods not only keeps the people happier than just being in a bunker, but makes them easier to care for as they would require less nutrition/amenities.

Your body is in cryo/stasis when going into CloudArk (presumably). So it's not the CloudArk slowing you down, its what happens to your body when you enter. Their bodies/minds are still in the "main" dimension of reality. As for the CloudArk... Nimbus, when seeing the Veil, said it looked like a prototype CloudArk, which tells us that The veil is a device/mechanism to detach/re-attach the physical from/to the non-physical. Where CloudArk works with mind/body... The natures of Light/Dark deal with life/death, or body/soul. Specifically, since guardians can be revived after decades/centuries/etc.... and they retain personality but not memories, we can presume this is a body/soul connection, as life/death are both still concepts within physical reality. Given that the Witness has never been seeing PHYSICALLY interacting with anything, ever (it even floats as though it can't touch grass and cant walk), add to that, Darkness is to non-physical as Light is to physical. The veil, literally, would be the threshold between them. The veil was disconnected to the traveler, any by extension, The Witness. Which means the "doorway" only works one way, which creates paracausal imbalance on the side of the physical. I believe the Black Heart was probably not created by the Vex, and may have actually been created by Savathun to trick Nezaraec and the Witness using Worm God/Hive Magic. With it Destroyed, it's had to find other ways of corrupting/connecting to the Traveler, for the Final Shape... manifesting a physical presence and restoring balance. (Are we the baddies?). Also, with the doorway "broken", it is possible that both Nezarec and Rhulk are "stuck" on our side of the veil, and can't go back to/communicate with The Witness. Dead, but not in the proper sense. They may be in a limbo-like state where they are physically dead but their essence can still be re-constituted into the same/another body (like how we can be rezzed by Ghosts). Analogous to how The Witness doesn't appear to be able to have physical body and must possess that which has an inherent connection to Darkness (including both us, and the Ghosts, but with the veil removed, not the traveler.... until it was linked back) The portal is likely what will allow The Witness to ACTUALLY manifest in physical reality, as so far it seems to always be "trapped" being a "veil" of glass that it can't even shatter if it gets mad enough. The promotional clips/trailers also show that this glass seemingly holding The Witness back, eventually breaks. Connecting the Darkness to the Light through the veil itself

Of course it tricked us. It’s plan all along was to use us to create the link it had already told the calus this we just hadn’t known what it meant yet.

Not rlly impressive, if you consider he could've linked the veil himself and solo everyone. The story is just broken af

@@UnknownUser-bk2kf he was keeping the traveler locked in place to prevent escape

@@AnimeTrap69 nah the pyramids did, also the whole solar system was surrounded

To be fair to our Guardian, the Witness has been shown being able to possess our Ghost to speak to us since Shadowkeep. I think that, given everything else that has happened since then and the number of other times we've seen our Ghost possessed ONLY to communicate with us, it may not be that surprising that we didn't consider the idea that our Ghost could be hijacked to be used for other things. We were kind of stuck in an impossible situation. Caiatl had already been exhausted delaying her father, Osiris was in no position or condition to fight, and Nimbus was the only Cloudstrider left and would have been too critical for running other Neomunian defenses to have been fighting Calus.

It is implied that the Veil had something to do with the Witness being able to link to the ghost on Neomuna. Both times it happens is in close proximity to it. And there is a cutscene right before the Radial Mast mission where Osiris says he’s curious about the Veils influence on Ghosts. And then right before the Witness makes the link it is Osiris and radios in to get our ghost out of there like he had figured it out. So idk about it just being able to do it at will any time it’s happened the ghost has had to be near something, pyramids mostly before

😲

makes alot of sense

who knows what the distributary is the, I've never even heard that and ive played the game for 8 years

@@colinfahey4234 the distributary was the place where Mara resided at when she was revived after the events of Taken King. We visited her there weekly during Forsaken in the Dreaming City after the campaign. It was her own throneworld if I remember correctly

@@CoFiCH91 no, the Distributary is the reality the Awoken originally hailed from. It resulted from a singularity created when the colony ship carrying the original Awoken was attacked by a Pyramid during the Collapse. Mara's Throneworld is something different

@@SiniusAZM I could have sworn we enter that area when we go see Mara during Forsaken, no?

This would connect to Nezarec's desire for pain, being forced to kill everyone you know in a dream, including your family and loved ones, is one of the worst pains I can think of.

Yes and the deep slow whisper

It would be cool if we could fight inside the dream. A race towards that tower dhunde chasing a moving boss

I'm not sure if disciples of the witness gain power by "following their nature" the way hive gods do. However, if they do, the creation of the Exos would be a tribute farm bigger than when savathun tricked us into killing her daughter every 3 weeks in the dreaming city.

This was the first thing I thought of, the fact that they all dream, and for so many it's a nightmare.

Jisu Calerondo = the Witness, or another Witness' disciple -OR- the final boss of the hew raid XD

I think we were supposed to understand from the broken-glass transmission to Calus that our ghost picks up communications from the Witness, even ones we're not apparently supposed to actually receive. Maybe the Witness actually wants us to receive those and is playing mind games, but I think a possibility is also that although it can take control of our ghost, it might not be able to stop our ghost from picking up its communications...

I mean Osiris calls Strand by its proper name before we know literally anything about it having to do with ties, connections or tethers so, with all the respect in the world, I'm not giving the writing team too much credit this expansion.

@@chirpynsleepy958 I took that as Osiris just coming up with a name for it, could be wrong tho

I’m trying to imagine

What do you mean? We literally finish the campaign and have very little idea why the worm familiar was such a big deal. All we know is it unlocked a memory. It's a literal mcguffin just like the veil. I had studied everything there was to know about the hive, it's my fave part of the lore. Hell, I've read stuff to my kids on it. We knew almost nothing of value until the exotic gl mission. It wasn't until that quest that we actually understand why the worm familiar had so much power, knowledge and was such a big deal for doing what it did to Savvy. But hey, it wouldn't be the Destiny community if we didn't praise a thing one day, then hate it the next. Sadly, Byf has fallen into this same trap.

​@@Real28 1000% the truth!!!

@@Real28 But there's no mission for Lightfall that explains what the Veil is. Ontop of that, the worm was not that integral to the story of Witch Queen, whereas the Veil is what everybody wants and some people know what it is but never explain it. I agree that the community has issues with their criticisms, but I think in this case its justified. We don't get a clue to what it did to the Traveler.

​​@@Real28 sure, you have points, but there's backing lore that explains all that stuff, the worm familiar is talked about in the books of Sorrow, no such thing exists in lightfall. You're gaslighting people while being well aware that there are answers to your questions, you just don't want to acknowledge them because it weakens your point

The traveller grew from a seed, much like the other paracausal beings, the ahamkara, pyramids...etc... those are the seeds the gardener planted before the universe and found their way into the universe as the gardener and winnower fought before the universe. A seed will be needed in the recreated garden that exists before / instead of our universe / reality.

That was defo my favourite part of the whole thing when the guardian at the beginning of the penultimate mission was just like 'Pull your effing fingers out and get to work' starts domming everybody, bossing everyone around like an Alpha Chad haha.

"the image that ghost first finds while following Rohan's trail is an "hourglass"" 1) Go to Europa 2) Go to Bray Exoscience 3) Look at symbols all along the Wall. You will see a lot of Hourglasses, Brains and Eyeballs! 4) Profit! For extra credit... Look at the "Simulation: Safeguard" symbol!

So…the Traveler itself is the heart?

Linked to the Traveler's remains* The Veil + Traveler = Pale heart

I think the Witness is looking for the Pale Heart which is insinde the Traveler and the Veil is just a Way to open the Portal to "a Dimension inside the Traveler" where he can get the Pale Heart for whatever Reason he wants it.

The hourglass shape is often how the Einstein-Rosen bridge is imagined, as the ER essentially "pinches" space-time at a central point of negative energy before expanding it in a different location, allowing travel between two different points in space-time

😳😳

I saw a jellyfish

My first thought was that I kinda looked Awoken

Considering how biblically correct angels work, yes, it is indeed an eye

you were able to interact with those before completing the campaign.

Noted

OMG

Someone needs to bring a nezerec related artifact to the k1 anomaly

It seems that he already has. Exos have always reported having strange or even scary dreams. We know that Nezarac probably doesn't intent to kill everything, but make it suffer, so maybe the dreams are enough for him in the current time.

Dude! I swear during Season of the Lost I would hear whispers at the Speakers old chamber!

@@gackolpz the recurring dreams of exos were small flashes of their past resets where they fought the vex at Europa whenever Clovis opened the vex gate back at the golden age. We already cleared that in Beyond Light.

So similar to a full dive vr rig like from sword art online where the mind is active in a vr space while the body is in a semi comatose state

Totally agree, the Neomuni are in The Matrix Their digital bodies are not directly replacing their bodies. The Lore Book for Neomuna covers the evacuation of some of the Neomuni to The CloudArk

So um The Matrix?

And I’d bet that your thoughts are correct. That’s exactly what I was thinking when he was explaining DER. This case is not disassociative, it’s more of like astral projecting. An out of body experience of sorts but, you mind is still connected to your body. I’m sure enough trauma to your body would pull your mind out of the cloud arc.

He did mention that EXOs use/used? Vex fluids. Perhaps they, having worshipped the Black heart, which in turn was an imperfect copy, are corrupted so to say. Like, the Neomuni are using the power of the veil directly. A pure, untainted, transfer. Just at thought.

And it's not even out of character for the Witness to treat their disciples like that. After all Rhulk, the First Disciple, had effectively fallen from the Witness' graces due to his failures and arrogance resulting in him being made to babysit Savathun, someone who was ironically enough responsible for some of those failures to begin with. Given the nature of Rhulk's messages in the post-raid mission inside the Pyramid it does seem like the Witness just cast Rhulk aside and was otherwise ignoring him.

That might explain why the neomuna people are more stable then exos

Another question, anyone try Lament yet. It is after all, related to one the Banshee who was the original model for Clovis himself.

How is nezarec connected to exos?

@Marcus Grell Nezerec indirectly told Clovis to build exos, it is in the video near the end. Basically the K1 crew went insane because of Nezerec and told Clovis to build the exos. And Clovis used darkness and vex milk to do so, which have dark properties like Nezerec and the exo dreams as stated above which are reportedly sometimes about them killing all their loved ones, which is a very nezerec thing to project into people's minds.

What are these whispers that are being talked about? I feel like I’m missing a huge piece

the next couple seasons are definitely going to tell us more about the story they even said in the TWAB that we will learn more about the plans of the witness. "know that this is just the beginning of the next year of storytelling that will connect the events of Lightfall and The Final Shape. We can’t wait for the community to learn more about The Witness’s origins, its objective, and the ways we can thwart it and its disciples throughout Season of the Deep, as well as Seasons 22 and 23 later this year." which it seems every content creator Ive watched decided to ignore and/or not comment on

​@@killertaz2099 the issue does not really come form the fact the veil won't be explained. Because everyone is very much aware it will. This however means that the veil does not really hold significance in any way other than the fact our enemies wan to do something with it. This in itself is already somewhat of a problem as you will fail to really convey to the player any sense of urgency to their objective. More problematically, the entire cast acts and speaks as if they understand the ramifications, what the veil is, and what the witness wants to do with it. Again, I can point to mass effect 1 to see how this can be handled. For most of the game you do not know jack shit about the conduit, other than your nemesis is going after it as well. Most of your actions are spurred by the knowledge form the beacon flashbacks that failure would mean the end of the Galaxy, so you are aware of the danger. However over the course of the story you learn more more details about it and breadcrumbs by breadcrumbs end up figuring out what exactly is happening. The cloud striders would have knowledge about the fact the veil is being used as a means to allow their city to exist, but why would they know about it's ability to link to the traveler, or that the radial mast was nessesarry fot it? Or even, why would Osiris know about ANY OF THIS? He just came out of the season of the seraph knowing there was a city on Neptune and they the veil existed and was a source of paracausal energy, that is it. It's entirely acceptable even to have us learn and speculate on its function and totally guess wrong what it actually is.

The Final Shape...

This explains the campaign a lot more. The witness knew calus was stupid and selfish enough to do anything it said for power and recognition. He died being played like a fiddle.

If the witness is somehow related to the winnower, then from their perspective it’s easy to understand, the gardener wanted to create life to see it develop independently from the final shape, and the winnower only wanted that which can exist by itself, so when the gardener made itself a law in the game, they were bound to give the “power from heterodoxy”, thus the witness (winnower) wanted to free the traveler from that, to restore the balance of the game

I feel like since the traveler embodies the light, it is tied to the axioms of the light,much like how Oryx, Savathun, and Xivu Arath are tied to their nature and can not deviate. Maybe the traveler has no choice in fleeing or blessing worlds because it is bound to the principles of the light.

Cayde did mention something about a “Long, slow, whisper” during the ace quest. Those seem to be a theme of Nezarec.

​@@MrBulbo-oz1es Goddamn, that's a really good point!

God I hope so

There's also theories floating around right now that 'The Deep' might also be a bit more literal - The new Exotic Glaive lore entry suggests that there's something on Titan that opposes the Witness and must be protected at all costs. People are taking and running with the theory is that it's a new Leviathan (the creature from Fundament, not the ship).

Savathun and guardians will be an allies.

i think it will tie into his sister since she is supposed to be around rn

Data mined SPOILER: Season of the deep will take place on Titan. Paraphrasing here, but the description for the season has something to do with "resurrecting an old enemy of the darkness"

Hear me out. And I hope this theory gets a bigger look. If the vex where trying to make something like the veil, the black heart. Maybe the veil is something like the brain of the traveler or that kind of dynamic instead. Like the Egyptians thought the brain was useless and the heart was in control instead. The vex tried to create what they thought was the control of the traveler, a heart, thats why they failed, the veil is like a brain. It did kind of look like a brain ngl. The witness would have severed the link from the traveler to the veil, "paralyzing it" so it can enter it. Yet still being alive hence it still powering neomuna. This is my theory.

@@joshlisiecki8702the witness said “your pale heart holds the key”, the key to what? A link to the traveler?

Danm such great theories! so totally packed with info. You players need to stop coping and find a new game because this fInAl sHaPe, sOuRcE oF lIgHt aNd dArK & gAmE oF lIfE bullshit is just being made up on the spot. Regardless of how this god awful saga ends it will be tragic and disappointing and not what people expected and wont satisfy majority of people (everyone apart from the bungie bootlickers that love bungie because they give out pride emblems) but maybe the gameplay will be decent..meh like i say its going to be a shitty generic hero goes ooga booga and saves the day ending where noone dies, noone close to us does anything and then what?? theyve said this is just the end..so the game continues somehow so clearly itll just be the same tower and social spaces unaffected by world ending events with shaxx still standing there but maybe well get another tree!! They are going to end the saga in the most pathetic unimpactful way and us as players are just going to continue doing strikes etc because the story is 2nd though to gameplay to bungie and it always has been

@@Khqraso don’t play it

​@@Khqra where did that rant get you? Do you feel satisfied?

I think they're just naturally attuned to Darkness, and maybe more accurately Strand energy, not necessarily Nezarec specifically

both use darkness (concepts regarding emotion, dreams, feeling) but in vastly different ways. pouka's make heavy usage of memory and emotion to sympathize and care for its companions whereas nezarec feeds off of a certain feeling, that feeling being pain.

I like that idea, like a celestial Yggdrasil

It's not the first time we've seen a combination of light & dark forces. That's quite literally the origin story for the entire awoken civilization.

That's what I was thinking through the video, the Traveller is an entity of the Light as The Witness is an entity of the Dark. I love the Twilight aspect though and agree. I was thinking in Black and White and you were thinking in Technicolor

I always thought it was interesting how the Veil was always referred to as a “paracausal” force, but not a Light or Dark, or even Wish magic force. Ghost can pick up on Light and Dark, but still says the Veil has “paracausal” energy, nothing more

​@@dillonsalmond8929 that is only partially correct. The witness just wields the darkness. It is not made of darkness

@@knickiicht Yeah, I believe the Traveller wields the Light as the Witness wields the Darkness. Sorry, my wording was off

This is actually an underrated theory.

Good catch!

I took it more as the Witness would like it destroyed, but lost that chance when we destroyed the Radial Mast. Maybe if Nimbus hadn’t swiped Ghost out of the air, he would have detonated, Sagira style

​​@@Asheslit unlikely. The first time we find out about the plan, it was "you will *link the radial mast* and see the veil destroyed"(right next to us, btw. A bit weird discussing your plans right in front of your enemies... see point 2.) Second time: "secure the veil, we will create the link [...]" Both of these lines happen before Rohan destroyed the mast. My interpretation is that it was either 1."Use it then nuke it so no one can revert what we did." or 2.just a lie to get us to hurry. They needed a light artifact near the veil, they would've had one either way. Be it the mast or our ghost. Edit: misremembered. Second line actually happens right after.

@@idfk_vfx I imagine it is a bit of both. Much like the Witnesses goals in Spire of the Watcher. Primary Goal: Learn the location of Neomuna, codename: Nefele Stronghold and delete any trace of it. Secondary Objective: Lure Rasputins subminds, imprison them and blow up the Spire. The Sol Divisive Vex and Eramis succeed in their primary goal, but the secondary goal was foiled by us. While we were led to believe that their secondary objective was their primary goal. Season of the Seraph sets up the fact that The Witness and its close allies (like Xivu Arath) always have a plan B or even a plan C ready to go. Just look at the Warsats. If Xivu got control of them, bye bye Last City. If we got control over them and used them on the Wrathborne, bye bye last city. In the case that we get control over them and do nothing, send Eramis in to hack the systems and use them that way. The only way we avoided any of those 3 outcomes was Rasputin sacrificing itself.

Even ignoring the fact there's no evidence the Witness knew it was being observed, why would it need to lie again? If we *didn't* think it was going to destroy the Veil, were we just going to... ignore it and leave Neomuna? Was the Radial Mast entirely irrelevant? If so, that's a *comical* amount of effort just to get a Ghost into the room. I think a much more likely occurrence is it just got lucky. We forgot that our Ghost is a link to the Traveler and that the Witness could control it, and it used us dropping out guard to its advantage. Had we not intervened, Calus would've likely been able to establish the link in some other way, or secured it and just... taken it to the Witness directly. It's a Xanatos gambit, where every outcome results in victory, not some careful six-dimensional chess "I knew you'd do that so I did this" Death Note nonsense.

game dev here: i think its more a question of if this is possible within the constraints of destiny's systems; i think it's still very likely that it could be done, but we also have numerous examples of things bungie says they cant do because of these limitations, even when we would intuitively believe it should be easy

In fact they did something similar in BL, causing your first visit through certain loading zones to prompt Ghost dialogue about his concerns with Stasis.

I would agree if everyone in the story didn't talk like they already knew what the veil was

@@strrmnn Not a single character besides maybe Rohan even hints that they know what it is. All anybody knows is that it’s an object of extreme paracausal power.

Yeah, I would've been fine with them saying we lost and being confused on why things aren't ending and seem to be more in a state of limbo at the moment. That news report from Jisu Calerondo should've been in the main quest and not a freaking patrol. That is vitally important information.

@@strrmnnonly native neomuni have shown that they know what’re you talking about

​@@strrmnn They knew what it did for Neomuna, why it was important and that it had to be defended at all costs. However, on what it did beyond that (ie: On a paracausal level) they were clueless.

I totally agree with this theory

I'm pretty sure the Witness is to the Darkness what the Traveler is to the Light. The Witness is handing out the powers of the Darkness to people the same way the Traveler hands out the Light to people

The veil is the travlers heart because the witness literally says your pale heart holds the key

@@Neo_p1xleliterally makes no sense that the veil is the travelers heart. Look at D1’s opening cutscene where the astronauts on mars first discover the traveler terraforming; at the time neomuna did not exist, so it very unlikely the veil is the travelers heart since it had no heart when it first arrived, and humans hadn’t traveled to & populated Neptune yet.

@@Neo_p1xle u didn't watch the whole video did you?

No it wasn't... it "woke up" at the end of d2 vanilla campaign, when it burnt the shackles off ghauls device to trap it. You literally see it pulse out into the solar system. So really the red war caused all this hahaha!

This is how I am approaching it. I have disappointments in the campaign but not in a way that takes away from enjoyment of the content.

I don’t think the problem is the mystery. I think the problem is how it was marketed and sold. Lightfall doesn’t give new players a reason to stick around. Some veteran players might be itching for more story to come, but Lightfall did nothing to give new players hope for the future, in my opinion.

It would check out considering how the veil is used in our reality

Interesting theory on the Nine, I think you may be on to something... much research is needed on my end thanks for the starting point

This is a great thing to think about Thanks for the new lore mystery that's gonna plague my life

Alright guys hot take, what if the witness is trying to use the nines power to bring about the final shape. What if the nine is going to be brought forth into our reality, the full power of the nine shaping out universe to the final shape

The portal in the traveler leads to the realm of the nine, through which the witness will bring absolute power back through

this is a great outlook, i just don't think bungie got that point across effectively. possibly good intentions, subpar execution.

when you put it like this... it really helps explain so vagueness and confusion in the campaign. we don't know what the witness did cause well, it was dedicated to achieving its goal and to that end, make sure nothing stood in its way. it set us up from the very beginning. i agree that bungies portrayal wasnt the best, but seeing it from this perspective really helps show that the witness is a force equivalent/stronger than us. it just bulldozed its way through sol to the traveler, waited for the perfect moment and striked. and we never had the time to react

@@vultionsin3028 exactly. Another thing people probably don’t realize is that our own guardian became the Witness’ failsafe if Calus failed his objectives. Either Calus links the Radial Mast, or secures the Veil, or kills us, or we kill Calus and the Witness uses our Ghost to form the link.

I agree with your assessment greatly, after starting my second playthrough of the campaign I began to realize what actually happened and that everyone else in the Destiny universe is just as confused as we are. It really is like infinity war to the point where we didn't know enough about what we were trying to protect to make an adequait defense. I made a post as well about Osiris being just as clueless as we are.

Does that mean the pyramid on europa was nezarecs?

@@GrimViridian No the one on the moon belongs/belonged to Nezarec. The one on Europa arrived with the rest of the fleet. The K1 artifact however is what gave Clovis the idea for Exo's

That one was already one of the confirmed whispering items.

@@brandondennis7527I’m confused on what everyone means by whispering items

@@redset985 Completing patrols and other activities on Neomouna has a small chance to get incoherent whispers played. Unless you have certain items equipped. Then they're not incoherent, they're dialogue from Nezerec.

So you're implying that the Veil is similar to the life stream from Final Fantasy 7 and 14?

Children care about their parents after all, even the rebel children

Maybe if you people stopped crying so much about strand then just maybe you could of focused on the story and wouldn't of been confused like a simpleton..

@kolz4ever1980 I think your seriously projecting friend. I understand that whiners must really get on your nerves as a lore head and a lover of the game. But none of what you said could be gleamed from anything in my comment and seemed to be things you assume about me. Good luck to you, But you should honestly take a breather.

I always figured the Vex were the final shape in their own universe.

@@RhianKristen Preach.

This has to be the case

Yeah but we aren’t fighting her directly sadly so she won’t spawn in lmao

I imagine she and her brood are still mopping up what is left of the Cabal Empire after the destruction of Torobatl. Especially now that her ploy last season fell through.

I heard him playing the strike when the campaign required it, Only exotic I had equipped was assassins cowl, which did not translate other sections.

I was wearing Nezarec's Sin on my first playthrough, on Day 1, heard him say 'I am Nezarec.'

@@0nceAhero You do hear his voice in the strike, yes, but afaik normally you don't start hearing him in Neomuna until after LF. But in reruns on my alt classes the Strike dialogue commented on the patrol zone dialogue which I shouldn't have heard yet.

@@skeletor8951 At that point I had not finished the campaign. It was a pretty long "I am nazerac" manifesto type speech

Following up: this is from a Lost Memory Fragment in Warmind. “Lost Memory Fragment 12 DAYS UNTIL DIVERGENCE Jumping into an Einstein-Rosen bridge to travel in time has long been regarded fantasy by serious physicists. But what if there existed a computer so powerful it could indistinguishably simulate an entire alternate timeline? Based on my early research, this is a possibility of Vex technology. The key question would be whether one could take knowledge from a simulated timeline and alter the original. One step at a time, though. This item may be safely discarded.” I think this is the Witness’s goal explained right here.

Did you do it on legendary lol

I was the same way, part of my sourness with the campaign came from how they introduced Strand but replaying on legendary with all the fragments I wanted for a build has been pretty fun

Oh if only Nimbus and Rohan had more screen time... :'(

Cloudstriders added nothing

@@TheAcidicMolotov there’s this ongoing theme of confronting mortality that I really liked. Osiris is on his last life, the Cliudstriders die in ten years no matter what, Rohan dies. your Guardian nearly shoots their ghost and so on. I dare say it’s the best narrative through-line in the xpacs story but unfortunately it’s still too rushed to feel effective.

i think so. thatas why she wanted the traveler safe so the witness could never find either

Maybe because we don't know what it is? Osiris even says that the veil is of dire importance to the witness so we must defend the veil at all cost

He doesn't know it either

While nezerac is an enemy to the witness, it doesn't stop him from being an enemy to us seeing as he's the "final god of pain".

Nah nezerac will not be an ally. We have to put him down.

The raid will give exactly zero answers to the main campaign story.

All the way to D2 vanilla since the helmet is in the game since the begining

Technically, it explicitly links back to Shadowkeep, because we know the Lunary Pyramid once belonged to Nezarec (in Season of the Haunted, we do battle with Calus inside that Pyramid in a location called "Chantry of the Darkest Hour." The title "Darkes Hour" is one of Nezarec's epithets). So we know that the nightmares, and thus Shadowkeep's entire plot, have connections to Nezarec

I hate to burst your bubble, but it’s a legendary weapon. If you click on the weekly campaign mission, it shows an image of a fireteam carrying a whole set of stylistically similar weapons. I’m hoping these get added in as post-raid content.

The Cutscene iirc is before the 3rd mission so the Mast thing is still in play, so it could just be the simple explanation, use the mast THEN destroy the Veil. However, like other people, i think after Witness got Pissed with Calus after he shit the bed on the Mast thing he was just sending him to die for the sole purpose of getting our Ghost there.

​@@Perkustinlmmmmlmmlmmmmmmmmmmmmmmllmmlmmmooplmklplln MollybooOkkll llyl

​bi hjibb

Okay but same though, I thought statue lady was the veil too 😭

It's the traveler

@@kimalikijames7812 I would not be surprised if it was a portion of the Traveller's power, an offshot, so to speak.

it's probably something coming later with a prompt that is active too early or something.

Keep looking . When ghost makes that noise there’s something to investigate and get good info .m

Could be a later addition like others said but also sometimes things are scannable when they don’t have any dialogue like in Duality with the ceiling objects

You have never seen your ghost react to something that can get scanned? There are several around the last city

Doesnt do it on my game might be a bug with you