As someone who actually works in the tech industry i am glad you took even a small amount of time to actually learn yourself, you've done more than most and that even goes beyond just the game itself.
This is the last term i have before obtaining a degree in computer engineering. I have extensive knowledge in regards to rust, c++/c, and assembly, with experience in c#. So when I see "oh we need a new engine, spaghetti code kekw," it frustrates me because I know those complaining have never maintained legacy code or written oop code.
@@cooperbeggs6420 Learning languages dosent give you insights into this; software engineering design perhaps moreso. Also, working with legacy code is essential. Correct. However, do you really expect legacy code to still be not tested, constrained, wrapped, decorated... I mean, I hate to shit on what you've learnt, as good job getting a degree, however rust, c/c++, c#, and assembly are all a one dimensional viewpoint. They're built from the same thing. For example, when taking a more object based idiom (eg java) to this issue, ideas like proxies, adapters, etc come up. A more functional perspective (eg haskell) implies that it isn't holistic and functionality should be simplified. A more mathematical perspective (eg prolog) implies that there are inconsistencies that need to be verified. A hexagonal architecture is essentially what I'm talking about. software engineering design 101.
You don’t know anything about game engines though….datto said so.
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Posting my reply to another video about “Destiny 3” here (I’m a software engineer). Three things about the need for a Destiny 3: 1) Some software engineers love rewrites. If a system is complex enough, they say a rewrite is the solution (rewrite here is “Destiny 3”). But rewrites are typically a non-solution; they may start off great because you are focusing on the core functionality, but once you start addressing the edge cases you end up finding they need the same exceptions you had and thought were just bad code. 2) The only recent issues that look like a systemic problem are the error codes, and those are likely to be caused by a recent change, not an engine issue. 3) New games typically have many more bugs than older games. Destiny 2’s list of known issues is minuscule compared to most games. It’s guaranteed Destiny in a new engine would have many more problems than it has now.
A low life that gets paid to play a video game got some under hand money from bungie and now defends every shit thing bungie does. Might not matter to someone who gets free money for playing a game but removing 500$ worth of paid dlc is a big deal and it’s not our faults bungies engine is shit. They are now owned by Sony they are just lazy
Agreed. I think the only time a new engine is justified is when the current engine can't support certain features, or if in order to add a new feature, it would take a ton of work and be quite unstable, etc. (not worth it). Otherwise, the time spent working on the current engine means that it will be the smoother and more stable option.
With the beyond light engine upgrade and scripting changes . There is definitely a link on why we will likely not get older missions in the exotic rotation.
@@MangoKai I think so too. Even with large overhauls of how the engine works Bungie could just recreate these old stages in the new system. And a lot of the work in terms of audio, textures, models, map layout and planning would mostly be done already in that regard. If anything they'll likely have them be last on their list of returning stage s because of this.
@@MangoKai actually, there is and Datto knows it. He can’t say that because he’ll break his NDA, but when Aztecross broke it accidentally, it precisely on this topic.
@@MangoKai it’s not impossible (since they’d have to made from the ground up almost) but take for example outbreak. remember that one spot in duality where ur sliding down? Yeah in there’s one In outbreak I’m pretty sure it designed to kill so with the recent physics changes they’d probably have to revamp a shocking amount due to general changes from old code to gameplay mechanics that would not fit currently.
As someone who worked to an extent with unity, I once looked into UE4 and it was so completely different, that nothing you know carries over. That in mind, going from a custom engine to a standard one would not only require massive amounts of work, but also break the workflow of the development team. Also I feel like the video explains this problem quite well for non-programmers, Good Job.
Can't explain that to non developers tho lol, I've seen what it takes to swap engines lol, I played runescape alot and when they swapped from osrs to rs2 it wasn't possible to carry your old stuff over to the new game, the game was completely changed lol. All theese "internet developers" don't know much😂😂 glad to see someone who does
I'm a programmer working in AAA game engines. Most of this was about right, but a few small things to correct: Some game engines give you full access to their engine source code (Unreal Engine). This means that if you had a blocking issue, you don't have to wait on Epic to release a fix, you can just allocate some engineering time to modify the engine to do what you need it to do. This is a huge selling point for Unreal Engine. Unity is a company which makes 100% of its revenue from licensing their engine to game devs, so if the engine source was publicly available, it would affect their bottom line. So, they guard that super closely. When I worked at Facebook, even they couldn't get engine code access even by offering truckloads of cash. If you wanted to switch your game to a different engine, you pretty much have to rebuild it from the ground up. You also have to learn the ins and outs of that new engine. That can be months of ramp up time. You still have the texture, models, animations, sound & music, and all of the raw "art" assets you can reuse, but you'll certainly have to redo all the shaders, particle systems, game logic, user interfaces, etc. You're basically building a new game. The business case working for years to reproduce the same content, which already exists, and you won't make new sales off of... is a really bad business case. Not to mention, QA would need to thoroughly retest absolutely everything again. Is the bug an engine incompatibility issue or a dev implementation issue? If you switch engines, build a new game and expect 6-12 months of ramp up time for your team of cross disciplinary devs to become proficient -- then expect the 3-5 year dev cycle.
I can’t understand why even though my Wifi is stable, I still face the connecting server issue from Destiny 2. Does other people also having the same issue even now ? Is my Wifi problem or Bungie poor server problems ? By the way, my WiFi is 2.4ghz
@@alekiller2 datto is many things but he's no simp for Bungie lmao idk how you take it as simping but my word do you have some self reflection to go through
@@nazarus1283 skimping maybe not. But it's a standard bad faith take of community feedback. Example: Framing the engine complaints as people asking for Bungie to just "copy and paste" destiny into a new engine is just terribly bad faith.
Unironically, it was precisely this kind of talk that made me go into game dev and programming in the first place. If everyone kept saying 'just swap engines' and Bungie apparently wasn't doing this really simple thing, then there had to be an answer as to why. Which was what kickstarted this whole thing in the first place. Your 45 minute conversation with someone about game engines was how I started too, and then proceeded to spend the next couple of years learning these engines and learning how to code. I went to go figure out why, and loved every moment of it too. Turns out, this shit is just insanely complicated.
Stuff like this is why, when I hear someone complain about Bungie fixing specific bugs before others or not fixing the server issues, my first question is, "Have you ever coded anything in your life?".
I honestly felt the exact same way as you and it’s the reason why I went into software development. I now have a greatly newfound respect for game developers and give them a break whenever a bug or glitch comes out or even a server issue here and there.
Ok, so I have a question, if you know. Obviously a Destiny 3 wouldn’t get a new engine, but wouldn’t there still be a lot of new development and an ability to fix or re-write a lot of the code that’s causing issues? It’s a lot easier to make new things than try to work on all that legacy code from what I’ve been told?
Right. Cause more money going into this franchise while the Crucible getting laggier is perfectly fine. Or farming for hours for the same two unusable perks is not bad coding either. But hey, simping for Datto is your favorite thing to Datto.
@@Krohn117 No one should feel bad for wanting a better experience, his point was that simply demanding a new game engine is not going to make that happen.
The game Rain World was ported into Unity in mid development, which took them about 2 years to do. Destiny, which is basically 100x as big would take an insane amount of time and effort to port to a different engine
On a side note that has to do with the footage. On strand titan i noticed you looking around to hit your allies with the tangle for woven mail. You can throw the tangle at them and since you have the aspect equipped for it, the woven mail will pulse twice over the span of 3 seconds i think. So long as you make it into that pulse you'll still pick up woven mail too. It's pretty nice to be able to chuck a tangle at allies ahead of you and pick up the pulsing tangle's woven mail along the way. Lastly, thank you for showing the clutch solo GM completion all the way through. I was on the edge of my seat thinking you were not gonna show the end since it was just background footage lol.
As a game dev student, I really appreciate you doing this. It frustrates me so much how people are never satisfied with the things we create to make them happy.
I don't know how yall do it. I once had aspirations to make video games and began teaching myself C++, then I began noticing how ignorant, infuriating and insatiable video game consumers tend to be, more so than consumers of other entertainment media, and it killed my desire.
@@CouchCit Hell, the consumers are the least of the problems for the poor bastards who get into game design. Good luck finding a company to work for that isn't pure shit.
Make em happy? It's for profit, are you that soft in the head? Or should I tell you to cut the crap. Also people are satisfied with good products and services. Maybe you should consider the alternative that Destiny has rarely been that. Fuckin hell, God forbid a paying customer has complaints. Even Datto went out of his way to say the complaints were valid, in this very video.
In the same way people are annoyed about a shitty meal prepped by a reckless chef, who charges full price... We get annoyed about shitty deployments thrown out by reckless devs/Bungie leadership. It's not charity work. Devs may make games for people to love, but they're charging money that we put work in to earn.
@@jonathanwilliams3713 People make the choice to buy it tho. At this time, if anyone is not satisfied with the way the product is delivered (and it has been the same way for years), do not buy it or assume your purchase. On the other hand, bungie should be more transparent about the state of the game for sure.
This has been the most entertaining video coming from someone who went to school for game design. I have these debates with friends all the time and I try to tell them I went to school, studies game design and how the whole thing works. Also big praise about how players have 0 agency outside of reporting. I hate when people who have no idea what it's like to work at, with or around the engine let alone working in a game company in general and thinking they have an iron proof solution.
At about 17:45 where you ask if we’d rather have old content or new content; with what happened with lightfall, I’d say I honestly want my old content back. And the reason people want a destiny 3 is because the game was at capacity and they took away tons of our shit that we paid for. You say “oh well what about the people that paid micro transactions for d2 but what about the people that paid for the CONTENT?
That would also include that as well since I can bet alot of people would want their armor and weapons that they have on their character and vault which includes all of the weapons from release to now, along with everything everyone bought which may look easy but is probably not and won't be here in a long ass time
This is the biggest W I've seen this week. As someone who has been in software dev for 30 years in everything from AAA game companies, and FAANGs to fortune 500s and startups. The community has every right to be frustrated, but the community has shown that they think they are experts in a domain that they clearly aren't. Do I know what Bungie should do? No and neither does anyone who hasn't seen the code base.
yeah, i've just graduated in iT, and even with my understanding ( albeit small, but vastly bigger than half of reddit or so it seems ) i can understand that those problems have nothing to do with doing a switch in engine, which would be such a killer move ... for the game that is Seeing people complain about engine and "spaghetti code" like they know the world about it is hella infuriating
A low life that gets paid to play a video game got some under hand money from bungie and now defends every shit thing bungie does. Might not matter to someone who gets free money for playing a game but removing 500$ worth of paid dlc is a big deal and it’s not our faults bungies engine is shit. They are now owned by Sony they are just lazy
I’ve watched every video you’ve ever made about Destiny, many of them multiple times, and this might be my favorite. Any reasonable, thoughtful player should be positively overwhelmed when they consider the amount of work that goes into designing and programming this game, and the constant suggestion that every issue, especially technical ones, are due to incompetence is exhausting, and often clogs up or derails the discourse in the few places where players can actually gather to talk about this game. Thank you for making this video, Datto.
The more I grow as a professional software dev, the more fascinated I am at the technical side of video games and the more amazed I am that any are stable at all.
I feel it would be the opposite of what you said. It's like stripping the car of everything (the games content) and trying to jigsaw it onto a smaller, stronger, faster chassis/frame (the game engine) It MIGHT fit, but it would look garbage, probably fall apart, and will DEFINITELY COST YOU A LOT IN REPAIRS, which is a huge thing that people don't think about
Ppl can have thier opinions all they want but I think we all can agree that shit needs to change the game has been slowly falling apart for about a year and a half now with no real look on when it can end simple as that
Genuinely asking, if the issues we are experiencing are extremely difficult to fix and there is reasonably no clear solution, then how can Bungie move forward? From all sides it just seems like it's a "the only way to win is to not play" situation because its only natural that Bungie needs to keep the proverbial Destiny 2 ball rolling all the while. I'm only starting to learn about development as a whole so don't blow my brains out here
I think Bungie will fix some of the issues, leave us to deal with the smaller ones, and continue with new content because that's what MMOs do. They tend to be good at fixing game killing issues, like character deletion, crashes, laggy destinations. Smaller stuff, like instant death phalanxes, or fps affecting stuff, will just be part of the game, unless it becomes a pressing issue.
The same as any software developer does: Fix important bugs, leave the rest alone. Every piece of software has bugs usually a LOT of them. No team can fix most of them in a reasonable time so they prioritize the ones affecting the most players negatively.
A long time ago I remember Frank O’Connor saying something like “The problem with sequels is that they need to be exactly the same, but infinitely better”.
In the AMA with David Aldridge linked in the description, someone asked a question that sparked this response: "Most fun project - probably the post-destiny2 engine development effort - intended for a future destiny game, but was eventually refactored and folded back into destiny 2. The team made huge improvements to the engine which were key to enabling D2 and the D2 team to operate at the scale they are today." TL;DR: We already got the Destiny 3 engine.
TL;DR: We already got the Destiny 3 engine. Based on what? An effort they DIDN'T finish? How on earth would a half functioning relight of the current engine be considered the destiny 3 engine. We got the skeleton of it at best. Also do you know what "refactoring" is? They probably had to "refactor" half of the new engine (i.e improved) stuff out to fit the old engine. You don't just work backwards like that and expect it to be viable.
Very good video. BUT towards the end all I could focus on was whether Datto was going to save the GM with zero revives and being the only fire team member left!
as a software dev, thank you for making this video. Its so hard to explain to people how stupid they sound when they say things like "just fix the bugs" or "just upgrade the engine". also, I'm pretty certain CoD is so huge because it just has tons of high res, uncompressed audio and video in multiple languages.
So here's the deal as a software dev myself. The issue isn't the servers or the engine. It's the mentality of the lead developers and the marketing teams. Since Destiny's inception there had been a cycle of developing fixes and then selling those fixes. In every season or expansion drop bungie breaks something or changes something that doesn't need to change. Then when everyone complains they then market the fixes for the next season. There are a ton of examples over the past 8 years. Vault space, LFG, sunsetting, reducing PVP size, armor 2.0. Destiny isn't a game that is meant to be good. It's meant to just good enough to have you wanting more. And that's how they suckered players for years into buying to season and expansions that are Half done
Here’s something I actually do feel qualified to tell Bungie: I would be ok with changes coming out at a slower rate to allow for more QA. I think it is “as easy” as that in terms of avoiding rushed patches that break the game for a week and then are themselves patched up.
A low life that gets paid to play a video game got some under hand money from bungie and now defends every shit thing bungie does. Might not matter to someone who gets free money for playing a game but removing 500$ worth of paid dlc is a big deal and it’s not our faults bungies engine is shit. They are now owned by Sony they are just lazy
I wanna say, even when cross says "Quiet '#' the 11s are talking!" I think he's low key trolling. Would suck if cross' tomfoolery actually melded his chats braincells to construct bs
@@tehblanketyblank8776 Not a problem specific to Destiny, but there are plenty of content creators out there who behave in a way that is socially acceptable in context but socially unacceptable out of context. Waving around Guardian Ranks as a form of elitism is an intentional joke about the flaws of the system and about elitism itself generally, but if you have 1000 people watching you and 1% of them don't get the joke, those ten people will take it as encouragement to harass other people. Happens all the time.
I agree with everything Datto says here. However, I think one of the reasons that older content isn't played is because the pinnacle/powerful reward structure is removed when something new came in. If empire hunts, wellsprings, etc. still have pinnacles, those pieces of content would still be played, even years later. Sometimes, just going after the gear isn't enough. Just my thoughts.
Someone please take this video, cut out all of the annoyed bits and digs at the community , and give is the 5 minute long explanation that "you can't move a full game to a new engine with a snap of your fingers and your connection issues are server based, not engine based" please
This was probably the most satisfying destiny video ever made. You tell em. Holy shit you put it into words, everything annoying me rn about the community. Clear and concise and well thought out.
I've been telling ppl forever that Destiny wouldn't feel like Destiny if it was made in another engine. And also saying server issues have nothing to do with the engine either, the amount of ppl I hear saying the servers are crap, or they're down again, and we need a new engine is crazy.
A big thing is that a lot of these issues that we do see pop up come directly from them adding new content to the game or changing things about the games systems. The reason why we see things like audio issues is almost guaranteed to be directly related to either them trying to upgrade the audio to better support 3d audio and take advantage of new tech developments, OR is caused by those things being updated and breaking the compatibility with D2s integration with them. The reason why we see Radiant and Volatile from some sources not dealing with champs is because those interactions have to be explicitly programmed, because the alternative is your arbalest losing its anti barrier because your radiant went away. If I had to guess why we had people not properly loading in for each other and looking invisible Id wager its because the files that dictate our guardians appearance are constantly expanding, and whenever they add something new like titles or GR and one packet gets lost on it way from Costa Rica to California suddenly your character is invisible until they can patch in a failsafe. A lot of people complain about them not testing things or not having enough QA, the reality is time, they're pushing things out when they feel comfortable that the bugs that haven't been found haven't been found because they aren't causing crashes or they're edge cases. The alternative is us waiting MUCH longer for a game with slightly fewer issues, or us getting the amount of content were getting now at the same speed, but no new exotics, subclasses, buffs, debuffs, weapon perks, ect... because each one of those is a new piece of code that can introduce problems when interacting with other things. The thing that Im actually upset about in regards to the most recent patch is the nerfs, Stand Grapple getting axed, No multiple finisher mods, Glaive nerfs. It sucks learning about or finding a new interesting interaction and enjoying it enough to develop a build around it JUST for it to get nerfed to not work. If something is dealing too much damage or giving too big of a buff then fine tone the number down, but a lot of these things getting nerfed aren't gamebreaking and require sacrifices from other areas of your build, These are interesting choices that you're taking away from the player pushing them into running one generic best loadout, and that sucks.
I trade kills in this game more than legitimately every game I’ve ever played aside from D1. Whatever they need to do to fix that dumb shit needs to happen.
I've spent my life working in my two areas of passion, firefighting and I.T. I know, odd combo. But as a programmer, I can 100% respect everything said here. I was never a fan of Datto until today. Subbed.
I'm just going to respect the fact that anyone willingly worked both in firefighting and I.T. as a combo, let alone individually. People like you really deserve a refreshing beverage and a medal. Much respect!
As a (non-game developer) software engineer, I'm going to watch this video on repeat as I browse social media groups that discuss game issues for the rest of my life.
I hope in 10 to 20 years Bungie can release a story driven reimagining (or retelling) of Detiny's story. Just a 20 to 30 hour campaign that masterfully reworks all the story experiences from beginning to end.
I love how datto acts like developer laziness doesn't exist and no I don't care how much work it takes to build a new engine. Bungie sunsets content we've paid for plus nickel and dime us with the eververse store. Then have the nerve to sale us a half hearted expansion with a new sub class that was originally meant for witch queen. If a company loves and cares about what they do, then making a quality product for paying consumers, some who have supported you for years is not a problem and definitely isn't met with excuses and the most environmentally friendly recycled content ever. Datto you are entitled to your opinion but so are the gamers that have literally kept this game alive and relevant for 10 years. BUNGIE IS BEING LAZY AND COMFORTABLE. You know what other games are like that ( madden, 2k games, fifa franchise, ). I bet if another game better than destiny comes out ( a real destiny killer) alot of problems would get fixed alot quicker and the quality of the game would increase exponentially.
They can't change the engine, but if they really want to support the game longer they'll have to deal with the massive technical debt of the game. If not, game will just explode. This is not a take, it's reality. In its current stat, Bungie can't support Destiny for many years like they pretend they'll do.
The fact people are even insinuating we need a Destiny 3 after the fucking hissy fit a lot of them threw when Destiny 2 was announced is beyond insane, and it's even more insane that they have no clue what they're talking about whatso-fucking-ever
Genuinely loving the energy in this video. Also the only reason I want a d3 would be because i want to play as an eliksni or cabal and i just know that'd need a whole new game for it
I mean... no, not necessarily. It'd take a long time creating assets specifically for player-controlled Cabal or Eliksni that work with the engine but that's it. New playable characters don't at all need a whole new game, look at mobas.
One point to remember with the DCV. 5% of space and near 0% play time is partially because many of the bounties, quests, and other seasonal stories force you into very specific game modes. Good example. This season the only reason I've touched lost sectors is because of guardian ranks and story quests. If you don't play every day, but you want to keep up on the story, you have to follow their guidelines and only then can you go back and do other content.
I think there's a limit to how much you can get a community to play old content. Refreshing loot, adding rotators, and rewards like pinnacles are nice and all, but players aren't like that. People are tired of seasonal activities after a month or two. Same for new raids. We generally do a bit of the old content, maybe for nostalgia or because it's rotated with nightfalls or raid rotator, but the wow moments come from what's new, whether it be story, environments, or even reimaginings of the old, like reprised raids.
@@sauceinmyface9302 Don't disagree, but I was inconsistent the first few years of D2, but the summer before the DCV happened I was able to catch up on most of the old content. Not all, but most. I still wish I could finish some of that, but I understand that probably won't happen.
@Crunch Bar I started with Beyond Light, have never run it, and would like to. Bungie could add craftable loot with random rolls. Bungie could add a new exotic. Bungie could give it challenges and a seal to grind for. Bungie could give it new ornaments to grind for. Bungie could give it adept loot. There’s six potential reasons to re-run Leviathan.
Software engineer here - thank you for saying politely what I scream out whenever I see those idiotic takes on the internet. It's hard enough to develop software without the pressures of live service game with clockwork content updates, and I do not envy D2 dev team the position they are in.
Great way to put it Datto. I work in Aviation Engineering and I can't tell you how frustrating it is to try and explain things that are commonplace to me, to people who think they know what they're talking about but clearly don't. Sony would not have bought Bungie for more money than all of us combined will ever make if they had no idea what they were doing. There is no other game like Destiny, not even close. Things will get better and worse and then better again that's the reality of a live game. Keep up the hard work Datto.
I don't know anything about game engines. I do know that Bungie was purchased by Sony for $3.6B. I do know that during the last year or so we've had way more server/technical issues than in the past. I do know that Bungie employees need to do their jobs. If they can't, go find another profession and Sony will find someone who can do the job.
As a SysOps Admin, the fix the best I could guess is to spend the money on higher tick rate dedicated servers. The engine is fine, it's not broken. The servers being the issue also comes with a massive host of issues when it comes to protecting IP and data security. The amount of time that it would take to update even just update the YAML or JSON consumers inside the engine that we have now would take YEARS. I feel for Bungie as someone who joined a company with a HUGE amount technical debt, they have quite a bit but I'm sure that server solutions are on the forefront of their mind. I wish them the best of luck
Heres some constructive criticism from a destiny 1 vet who skipped destiny 2 til literally last night so i have no stake in this HUMBLE YOURSELF, your antagonist approach is unnecessary & makes you unwatchable
The #1 thing bungie could do/have done is just say "we're aware of the server issues that have been an issue since LF release, we understand it's frustrating, and we're working to lessen these issues and prevent crashes/game errors. That's it. They work hard at what they do, and put in a lot of effort and time and sweat into this game/the server. The only real issue I've had with it is the lack of communication, which bungie is known best for.
You say that, Jo, but if every TWAB contained apologies about whatever wasn't working right that week, wouldn't it at best become white noise or at worst seem passive-aggressive?
The only problem that I have with bungie - is that legendary shards bug that made us happy got fixed in 1 day, but the bugs that affect new and old player experience stay soo long, that people already forget about the existence of them
Love the video. Thank you for giving a summary. Got tired of defending this stuff from people who has no idea of the complexity in the complete process.
May have not heard, but the DCV, while still working, is not as powerful taking content out as it was. Yes, with Beyond Light we removed 4 planets (Io, Titan, Mercury and Mars), but since then we got Europa, Savathun's Throne World, Neptune and Cosmodrome. Is this relevant? Maybe, maybe not, but what I'm saying is that we're getting close to having close to same content as we had prior to DCV bring a thing. I was personally expecting Nessus to go away with LightFall, to counter the planet exploration portion of Neptune, but that's not the case. Additional to the fact that sunset is no longer a thing with weapons, we could probably have again an issue with weapons that have strange aspects and bring some strange shenanigans with it. The sunset existed for a reason, and I don't think it was just to sunset broken weapons such as Recluse or mountaintop.... This is full theory, and may not be related with the server issues at all, but it's something to take into consideration.
All i took from this rambling is Bungie is a indie develeoper and not a company with the backing of Sony now. Unable to grow the team, expand or do better. Just expect the same.
I think bungie needs to do what siege did a while ago with operation health, take a season off from entirety new content to just have the programmers fix stuff without having to worry about implementing new stuff
Thank you! It's so hilarious when people act like they know how game engines work when they don't even know what takes place in game development. "JuST CreAtE a NeW eNgIne bRo" like that's gonna be possible in a few months or even a few years. Actual clowns in the community.
You know one thing i thought about when people say what would be the point in making a d3 if our stuff carried over. Well tbh you already answered that earlier, the game can't handle having so much content at once. Vaulting should have never been the solution, while i understand why as a company they did it its still scummy as all hell and essentially scamming the consumer
Bungie "our game engine sucks" Gamers "so change it? Or fix it?" Bungie "no that would be work but hey we gonna still charge you full price for Forsaken and increase our other prices without increasing the value of our product at all in fact we're actively going to take away stuff you paid for and dont you dare bitch about it"
So many Bungo Dick riders in the comments. I don't care how complex it is, if you can't provide full service, then don't offer it so I can take my money elsewhere.
I do actually know more than most about game engines having worked with every publicly available mainstream engine to date. Swapping engines isn't even on the radar of a valid solution. it wont fox anything and it could take upwards of 4+ years for a game the size of D2 (That's a ballpark timeframe based on experience with other engines. I have NOT worked with the D2 engine).so what's the actual problem then? its a mix of things. you cant just add things to a game forever. it doesn't work like that. there will be problems, there will be bugs and they will take time to fix. I would also like to make it clear that the engine upgrade, while better for performance COULD have made things significantly more complicated. coding is hard and if you, the reader, don't know nothin about nothin, keep your mouth shut. ALL OF THAT SAID. as someone who has worked extensively with game engines, Bungie HAS to be dragging their heels/ignoring some bugs. it is entirely unacceptable that there are bugs that have been in the game for literally years. I've also worked with large servers professionally for a large corporation (Just because I know I'm going to get the comment, no I cannot divulge what company as I'm under an NDA until the company is no longer in business) and I can safely say that their servers are not being run and maintained properly. extended maintenances are one thing, annoying sure, but I understand it. constant error codes on the other hand are a loud cry from the server saying something isn't right. the error codes have been happening for years which tells me that for years the servers have been mismanaged. errors once in a while are one thing, but errors every week? nah. As for the "Destiny 3" argument, the fact that you even had to talk about it says a lot about how absolutely braindead the community can be at times. Content vault sucks, yes, and I haven't worked with D2's engine but I can say that porting content just from a previous VERSION of something like unreal to a new version can be an absolute nightmare and realistically often isn't worth the time.
It's more like how Aztecross makes a video every month talking about how D2 is dying and in it's past breaths and how a new Engine + D3 will fix everything. Yeh daydreaming but pretending like thats the only way to fix D2
So if the engine is Not the problem and as you stated it is Bungie's servers that are Not up to par.......follow me.....Why does Bungie NOT BOTHER TO UPGRADE THE SERVERS TO HAVE A SECURE CONNECTION AND NO LAG for the players that play the game????? hmm...sounds like rocket science and I didn't even speak to an IT expert.
Hey, just wanted to say that while I agree with the point you are making, when you tried the analogy of taking a car engine and putting it in a motorcycle, it kind of falls flat. Boss Hoss motorcycles have been around since 1990 and are literally what you described, a motorcycle, that functions like a motorcycle, with a car's engine. That covers can you question, as for should you do it, why not? They run faster are more fun to ride. For the is it still a motorcycle part, absolutely, it looks like, runs like, sounds like, and it rides like a motorcycle, so I would say it is still a motorcycle. Your analogy should have been the other way around, taking a broken car, removing its engine and putting a motorcycle engine in it, then expecting it to just work without issue.
No matter how much we enjoy the game, you have to admit it's in a terrible state and all the backlash is warranted. Even elitist datto can be wrong at times.
You're not wrong. People can be frustrated or upset. Absolutely. But "internet experts" telling Bungie what to do, and how to do it isn't helping in any way, and that's the key thing people need to grasp from this. Bungie know more about the back end of DESTINY than EVERY other player, no matter how knowledgeable said player thinks he or she is.
When Datto said “if you think it’s that easy I got a place for you to go and it’s linked in the description” I wasn’t quite sure what he meant and as soon as I saw a link to Bungie’s career page I nearly lost it 😂😂😂😂
Datto just ran game on you kids and you failed for it of course he's going to make excuses destiny is how he gets paid. The engine is 30 years old what 30 year old hardware man made any of you know that doesn't need replacing and this engine runs all the time no breaks.
The car analogy was close but rather than take the engine out, it's like stripping off every single piece of the car until only the chassis remained, then trying to fit on parts from a completely different make and model
Totally agree, the a new engine would be like remapping all of destiny's very complex interactions into that new engine's configurations. Needless to say, insanely complex for no reason.
Its more like having an old ferrari (which you understand but has some issues), but then buying a new toyota and try to recreate the driving feel of that old ferrari in the toyota. Can you do it? maybe you can get close, but it would take a fuckton of work.
🤔 I feel the more accurate one would be getting a brand new shiny chassis and then taking everything else from the old car and somehow trying to make it fit on it and then being able to drive off with the thing (hopefully) not falling apart
As for the network people who cry about poor connection. Imagine the car being sent to one piece at a time, and you at (exaggerated) the speed of light are expected to build that car as fast as you're getting the parts. Not to mention how some parts may take longer then others due to something getting in the way somewhere along it's path. That's how packets work for Networking.
I love the fact that datto is in a place where he can make money off of telling people he's tired of them looking to him to validate their thoughts about destiny.
To further Datto's point about migration complexity Satisfactory by Coffee Stain Studios is moving from UE4 to UE5. They talk a lot about what small modifications to the engine they have made, and how many people and how long they were working on the upgrade. While the team investigating the feasibility was small, it is worth keeping in mind how limited their customizations were. This all in mind, it has been months, even a year since they started looking into the upgrade to when they announced that they were going to do it. And that is UE4 to UE5, with a near ideal candidate for uplift. Moving a game like D2 to a completely different engine would be worlds apart more complicated. I am a software dev, not for gaming but for another industry. I am working on an application that replaces a legacy application used by all of our clients. This application is nowhere near the complexity of D2, yet has taken us YEARS to get to the point where it can replace the legacy app for the majority of our clients. Every time I see the community complain about the speed of Bungie disabling an exploit vs the speed of patching a bug that is hurting them it kills me. Even from the outside, I know that the two are no where near the same level of complexity, and I can't even always gauge how long it will take me to fix a bug in my own code because I'll think it's something simple but it ends up being something complex and dependent on some bit of legacy code that is used all over the place, and only in this one context does it break. And that's when I have access to the code! I don't have access to the D2 code, and couldn't imagine what layers I would need to unravel to fix any given bug because I can only guess at the interactions that might be causing it. I get that it sucks when something that benefits us gets disabled quickly, yet something that hurts us takes time. But that happens often because the things that do benefit us like the shard exploit CAN be disabled by toggling a switch. Notice that the Vorpal bug has been around for a long time, that benefits us and it's still not patched, nor is it disabled because it can't be disabled without disabling every weapon in the game that has the trait. The same thing goes for things that hurt us, they usually don't take the form of something that can be easily switched off. I get that it sucks, I get that there is this desire to balance good bugs with bad bugs, and I do think that Bungie could do a bit better about addressing timelines to resolution or internal priorities about what is getting fixed, but it must be understood that easy "fixes" will almost always get prioritized over more complex ones simply because they are simple
The thing is, nobody is expecting Bungie to ship a new engine tomorrow. Nobody has said it's a quick easy effort. Datto's entire video is arguing against things nobody is asking for.
@@st0nedpenguin datto’s point is that making a new engine or porting D2 to one would take an insane amount of resources. his analogy about putting a car engine into a motorcycle was not as apt as it could have been. its more like doing that while moving at 60 miles per hour. in order to make changes on that scale, bungie would have to stop all development on destiny 2, which they have already said they aren’t going to do. its a non-starter
@@st0nedpenguin You don’t spend much time on Reddit, do you. Datto’s entire argument is refuting what MOST keyboard warriors on Reddit are absolutely asking for.
Yep, I used to build websites. I know what you're saying. They think they're wasting resources patching exploits instead of fixing bugs but I'm sure they're different departments at Bungie.
@@lostsurferjames5 I think it’s the communities you are involved in, I left the Destiny subreddits cause they were ruining the game for me, I just stick with cat subreddits and stuff about space.
I’m a full stack web dev. I’m curious to what your thoughts are about Bungie’s QA team or process given the amount of bugs being reported by end users?
somethingsomething. Reee how dare you not be able to make a engine in a week for free reee. Seriously the sheer amount of crunch and numbers and man hours would be atrocious. But I do hope management not the devs make some decisions to hope leviate some issues the last 3 weeks.
As if bungie would listen to anyone that isn't "the old guard". Regardless of whether it's a good idea or bad idea. I've seen firsthand their work structure and it is reminiscent of the worst parts of valve and current blizzard with none of the good parts.
@@frauasylthe one I hate the most is the refusal to let the game run on Linux. They don't even need to actively support it, it already runs on proton, and their anticheat supports Linux, they just refuse to enable it.
@@monty58 Why do you think they "refuse to let it run", as if it can run but they don't want it to for no reason. Do you not think that such a small number of people play it on Linux that it just isn't worth the time. It would have to be a coordinated effort, and nobody up high is gonna say "yeah that seems like a reasonable use of time, to catar to the 0.1% of players who play on Linux"
@@lemon1797 because there is no "time" or "coordinated effort". The game already runs on Proton, they just have to not ban people who try to play it on proton. Battleye will do that for them. They already fully support Linux and Proton. If it was because it wasn't worth the effort, sure, that'd be fine. They could say that and most of us would begrudgingly accept it, but they haven't said anything. Instead they've said hey, if you try to play on the Steam Deck or through Proton, you'll get banned.
As a programmer and developer, this entire video actually had me laughing because of how obvious some of this is to me. Great information, Datto. Thank you for taking the time to make this video
I'm not even that, most experience I have is like... GameMaker coding in HS. And so much of this had me like "...do people really not understand this? If you even know what an engine IS you should know this."
im not even a dev and feel the same way, the closet to dev experience I have is very basic HTML web pages and some python knowledge, and even I know that things are complex
I'm not a developer or programmer and even I knew the engine couldn't be changed easily right now. I'm also not really seeing arguments that Bungie needs to change the engine 'right now!!!' but more that people are pointing out that Destiny 3 should've been made years ago but Bungie decided to keep Destiny 2 going out of a sense of greed. They deserve all the grief they are getting right now due to the game falling apart because of it.
I’m sure a lot of developers are very happy that this video exists. I don’t really know how game engines work but I am in the IT field and everything you said about users and their expectations vs reality is very relatable
@Mirasolov Klose Wrong, you paid for access to a product and signed (or checkmarked that you read and understood) a giant pile of legality that means that they can take the game down for any reason at any time and you can sit there or go outside and enjoy the free time you have been gifted. You are entitled to NOTHING so stfu and touch grass :)
@@mirasolovklose3888 Complaining about a product you paid for that isn’t working properly is valid. But offering unsolicited advise when you don’t have the matching accreditation is plain arrogance.
I do art for game engines, like Unreal. I watched a GDC talk on how Bungie renders PBR, a system that allows multiple overlapping textures to create reflections, illusion of depth etc. and thankfully it’s a similar system. But if anyone suggests implementing anything other than textures, and model files into a new engine, you’re insane. Skeletons, effects, lighting, oh my god, PHYSICS, you’re insane.
Also, game dev is cursed. A good number of comments start with 'wtf' and 'idk'. Having to go through and port 5 million+ lines of code, most of which already barely work, to another engine would likely be harder than translating a lost language.
It’s a sign of mastery to be able to simplify complex physical phenomena into lifelike, real-time effects in video games. Physics is hard, but simulating physics is harder.
