Destiny Lore - The Dragons of Destiny: Ahamkara (Extra lore) 

The artifact ahamkaras scale says "ha! And the warlock said I couldn't do it!" Hinting at the card where she told him to go kill an ahamkara

Anyone come back after the ending of Forsaken?

Destiny 2: Revenge of the Ahamkara. I would love to fight dragons, that would be awesome.

oh well... I had a good run with Destiny lore without much competition :) Nice work!

It's interesting to come back to this video and see your theory on the Ahamkara's and what they were. Now with D2 Forsaken we know so much more about their kind and the last living one.

Here in my vault looking at my exotics But you what I like more than my exotics KNAWLEDGE! I read a grimoire card every day

Now that we've seen Xol, the worm god - do you still feel like they are the Ahamkara?

“All dragons have wings” -*The Greeks would like to know your location*

On the point of the different spellings of Worm vs Wyrm, historically in Medieval England these two words were pretty much interchangeable, they both meant the same thing in many instances; that thing being "Dragon".

At around 8mins 20secs, when Byf is talking about the lore card and the hunter goes of to win the bet, Destiny actually gave quite a nice little finish to that. There is a Hunter artifact called the 'Ahamkara's Scale' and the flavour text to accompany it is 'and the Warlock didn't think I could do it. Hah!' Just thought it was interesting! Loved the video

I think the long version with personal thoughts included is the only way anyone actually paying attention to this wants to watch it. amazing stuff regardless

We need a dragon born to deal with these dragons

I love these videos! It's also good to talk about these things, especially when the universe itself is vastly unknown. my thought is that the worm gods might be a different species of a similar race (maybe an even more ancient and darker one as well). The remains that the sisters held could identify with this ancient power because of its similar likeness. knowing of this great ancient power, it led the sisters to it and rendered they fates to Worm gods.

In the warrmind dlc for d2 you kill a worm god which is an actual worm so I don’t think the worm gods are ahamkara. Also, one of the only things I could think about were the dragons you can see flying in the distance on Venus in d1. Pretty neat.

Do you know what ahamkara like more than materialistic things ... "KNOWLEDGE"

The Ahamkara have been my favorite lorical mysteries since Y1 and this was a wonderful compilation of all the (scant) information we have on them. These are incredible videos. Thank you so very much for doing these.

Ahamkara raid Bungie?

All the races sort of have an evil demigod they worship, Fallen have their servitors, Hive have Crota/Oryx/Worms, Vex have the Minds, I think Ahamkara are what the Cabal worship, also possibly giving the Psions their psychic powers. Also the Skyburners.

Dude. Imagine this. Ahamkara frozen under the surface of Europa

I like that you explain things from multiple perspectives and limiting bias when you tell us the info you came across and still sound confident of your personal opinion while keeping it separate from the other points. I wouldn't mind more lore from you

Is it just me or does anyone elese want to fight huge dragons?

who else remembers when everyone was freaking out abt the dragons in the sky in d1 what if that was an ahamkara

Assuming that the ahamkara are the size of a feline when young there is one flying in circles around the endless steps. Look off to the left of where you fought the gatelord and check out that drop off. Theres a dragon thing flying in circles, you cannot kill it I've tried.

Plz don't shorten them it's good to have these in detail and thank u so much for doing this series

How would you explain the fact that all the hive have a "worm" inside them all? That is how hive even from thrall to ascendant live so long and look so withered. They all have their own worm inside them. I haven't really decided for myself if the worm gods are the Ahamkara or not but I've been leaning towards not. I cannot see a small Ahamkara being placed inside every hive or have the Traveler allow them to follow him so closely. Since I think they also were around the fallen during their golden age. Perhaps they are the same species or similar but relying on a physical description does not imply them being the same species. Humans and Hive both have two legs and arms but that doesn't mean they are the same at all. I think the same logic can be applied to the Ahamkara and worms.

Keeping these long is a good idea. You don't want to rush the telling of deep lore, and it's definitely something to pass the time and keep our minds active. Keep it up!

I like to think that the form of the Ahamkara is heavily influenced by the power on which they draw. Pure ahamkara look like dragons, the ahamkara that consort with the hive take on the worm like appearance with the power of the deep. Then riven is sort of this hybrid, she was taken but not completely since she still has self awareness and free will so she’s in a form between worm god and her true dragon form. I have this theory because in the lore cards there is a line that depicts Mara weaving a crown of flowers or something under the shade of Rivens WING and yet when we see riven in the raid she has no wings. So ahamkara can shapeshift but are also influenced by the power they use.

still a great video byf. i miss the destiny 1 lore. it holds such a special place in my heart. thank you for all of the good lore throughout this games lifespan. 🖤

On the whole worm god thing, I don't think that the Ahamkara and the Hive's work gods are tone and the same, but are instead related. There's another little theory that the Ahamkara followed the Traveler out of the "void" it came from when it entered our solar system, and it is possible that the Deep that the worm gods existed in was a deep, dark portal into the "void" and demand to be fed with slaughter as the Ahamkara fed on reality itself, thought that is only a guess from all the mentions of teeth in their armor's flavor text, and the quote "reality is the finest flesh" or something like that on the Skull of Dire Ahamkara. I'd say that they're two different forms of the same being, but one chose to feed on death when it escaped the void, while the other chose to feed on reality itself. Hell, the Ahamkara might have even fed on the knowledge and ego of those who came to trade their gifts for whatever they could offer. These beings might have been ready to feed on our worlds before they even knew they would be here, as their species could probably travel between the "void" and what we define as reality without even knowing how or why. WOW I forgot how old this video is.

Byf been listening to you on guardian radio for awhile now, and I have to say the lore was always, always, always my favorite part. Let me say now while I hope you do read this, Amazing job on Ghost & Echoes!!! Loved it and your audio grimoire's as well please put out more. But I say the more info the better so I don't mind at all if these lore videos are long. Can't wait for more lore videos!!! Keep up the amazing job!!!

Id like to see a story segment involving the Ahamkara where you get tasked to bring down the last one however before you deliver the killing blow; he offers you a choice. He will give you power. Power enough to bring down the vanguard, the Speaker, you name it. In exchange, he wants a sacrifice. He wants to know the power of light and so you must sacrifice your light to him. This would lead to a branching story with alternate endings, new missions, new abilities as well as maybe even a new social area (dont think they'd let you back in the tower after that) and essentially add a whole new dimension to the story. Dont know if this is actually good or not, I just thought of it off the top of my head. What do you guys think?

+My name is Byf I love these lore bits so I do like it when they're long. Especially considering how the lore for Destiny is so scattered and in game there are only bits and pieces. I think it makes sense to keep them long because your videos give the clearest description of the plot I think.

Worm with an "o" is still used to describe dragons that are 4-legged, have wings etc, it doesn't need to be justified semantically. "Wyrm" is a stylistic choice that usually appears so people don't read it as an actual earthworm in their head, or because the writing is citing a culture who spelled it with a "y". It just comes from the Old English/High German word for snake. Worm/wurm/wyrm can all be used to describe what we think of as a dragon. Which doesn't change the conclusion of your video, but I don't think the lore or theories would be practically different if they were called "wyrm gods" instead. Now that I think of it, "worm" is an interesting choice because it can still mean dragon but our reflex is to imagine bugs and parasites in the context of the Hive, especially after all that talk of Thralls subsisting on maggots and worms and moths.

Keep these episodes as long as you need to, since I feel like lore needs to be this way. Making sure to get every detail in, and cover as much as possible. Brings about a lot of clarity and understanding, and I love that. Keep them coming as long as they're fun to make! :D

Byf, I'm not denying the great points that you've made, but here's some pretty solid counterarguments that verify the invertebrate nature of the Worms: 1) In the Books of Sorrow Verse 1:9, the "Honest" Worm, Yul, refers to its children as "larvae". A larva is worm-like, but may grow wings and mandibles ("jaws") when it matures (like moths, wasps, or horseflies). 2) Throughout the Dreadnought, you encounter large, slimy maggot-like creatures. Your Ghost explicitly calls them "worms", stating that "the Hive ingest them for sustenance" and that old Earth mythology claims they "grew from the dead", much like real maggots. *This is 100% unambiguous proof that the Worms are indeed grubs and not flying magical reptiles.* 3) The Hive accepted the Worms for symbiosis, although they later find out it is parasitism. Tapeworms can live within the entrails of a host, altering its metabolism. The Worms alter their hosts' appearance. 4) The Darkness is a force of corruption, death, and festering. The Hive have rotted inside out. Worms are nature's decomposers. *MY CONCLUSION:* Your theory of the Ahamkara being able to influence minds is likely the case here. But in-game 3D models, Ghost dialog, and specific terminology throw the dragon theory out the airlock. Yes, the Ahamkara are indisputably dragons, and are probably *controlling* the Worms. But the Worms are *CLEARLY* not dragons, regardless of how Eastern cultures drew them.

Long is good! You are one of very few lire dedicated people who I enjoy listening to and I don't exactly have time to read it all myself. I very much appreciate these videos and I love them so far. Keep up the good work and flood us with content...

Spoilers for Forsaken follow!!!!! I want to completely agree with you about the Ahamkara being Dragons. Sadly - This has been confirmed by Eris Morn to NOT be the case! From the new Forsaken "asudeM" entry (Triumphs // Lore // The Darkness // Truth to Power) by Eris Morn: "4. I've been correlating information on the Ahamkara and the Hive worm parasites. Both display a peculiar ability to convert the host's intent into an ontomorphic, reality-altering effect. Both use similar language in their appeal to the host. I don't think they're the same species, however. The Hive worms spawn large numbers of young from relatively few adults, always display the same physical form, and live in communal groups. The Ahamkara are solitary, elusive, and seem to alter form to suit (or confuse) expectations. The shared syntax "o ___ mine" may be the key-it seems to be a shibboleth used to invoke an ontomorphic effect, placing the target in a cage of "o" (activational, specific, appealing, and naming) and "mine" (defining ownership and subordination). Ahamkara and worm may have evolved separately to exploit this effect, just as many species independently evolve eyes. This might place them in competition for the same ecological niche. I would expect a rivalry or antipathy between them." Another thing that needs to be pointed out that I think you miss in regards to the entry "XLV: I'd shut them all in cells." This entry is Xivu Arath talking in regards to whom she sees as enemies. The Dragons are NOT the ones she is speaking of in regards to being her "gods" - But rather she is saying that their gods should be theirs alone - Worshiped only by them. Take note of whom she titles: HARMONY, THE GIFT MAST, THE HARMONY STING, ORYX, SAVATHÛN, THE TRAVELER, and THE DRAGONS None of these are her gods - But rather her enemies. Also - Your tangent on "Foxe's Book of Martyrs" (actual title being "Actes and Monuments") is incorrect. "Foxe" in this situation is NOT the animal - But rather the name of the man that wrote the book itself - John Foxe. "Foxe" comes from the Old Gaelic transliteration of "Mac a'tSionnaigh" (son of the Fox). Note the "aigh". Fox(aigh) or Foxe. Through the course of time the "aigh"/'e" was dropped in favor of just "Fox". The surname was used in both England and Ireland - Ireland being where the Old Gaelic word originated.

Going off your descriptions line of questions. 1- I wish we could know, but it seems logical to explain that they might be among the oldest species 2- I do not think so, mysterious in their motives yes, but I have to believe they have a goal that drives them to want to bad that it mentally effects those around them 3- With the presented logic you have shown it is far easier to believe they are then are not, yet with just a simple stroke of more cards could this then crumble 4- I feel it more of their very being is so strong that to those who cannot shield against it would then infect them.I hold some doubt that they are doing this on purpose, it just being brought on side effects of them pouring their very being into their works that even their pieces carry on their infectious will.

some big great magic dragon god? why is this not a raid yet?

Byf, your neck must hurt all the livelong day. I mean walking around with all that knowledge in your brain has got to be a truly unfathomable weight! Love your content brother, and have enjoyed it for years. Many thanks, and cheers!

How were you traveling the abyss with no weight of darkness?

I like the length because you're able to cover everything in depth and it makes it all more interesting

the ahamkara is something like the dragon shenron from dbz

Being a fantasy lover the lore actually makes sense and lines up with other dragon or wyrm or worm lore and ageing of it. so I completely am backing you up on this

who is saint-14 because I saw a helmet of it now a ring

No need to shorten! You are amazingly! You are an amazing storyteller. I think you are correct about the worm gods. I think a video about the origin of the Cabal empire would be amazing! Keep it up, these videos are amazing!

Look at the giant skeleton in the wakening story mission. It looks like a worm and it is in a hive area, but it has bones. Worms don’t have bones, dragons do. But it doesn't have any other bones. I believe the Ahamkara can take several forms. There are small worms in the dreadnaught. Are they Ahamkara? There are hibernating bugs on the walls of the Hellmouth, what are they? In the cauldron there is also what seems to be a worm skeleton. Are the winged bat-like creatures on Venus Ahamkara? Also, lord Shaxx posseses what looks like dragon skulls. Maybe there are different kinds of Ahamkara. “These are the wings of pratiya-samutpada, the truth of interconnectedness. The everywhere light” - the description of the light beyond nemesis. There are several clear links to the Ahamkara, such as the helmet looking like the claws of Ahamkara, talk of wings, which dragons have, and interconnectedness, like the Ahamkara’s psychic communication. The thing that stands out most to me in “pratiya-samutpada” In the language in which the culture the Ahamkara originate from, pratiya-samutpada means copies dependant orgination, though I don’t know what to make of this. In Buddhism, the pratiya-samutpada is a force that seeks to bring an end to suffering. It is a one of many doctrines that work together to stop suffering and escape from Samsara. The Samsara arises from wrong knowledge of reality, which could link to Ahamkara. 6 realms of Samsara exist, gods, asuras, hungry ghosts, hell beings, animals, and humans. Maybe like the planes of existence in Destiny. The Samsara is the continual repetitive cycle of birth, death, and intermediate bardo state. The pratiya-samutpada says that all things depend on other things to exist. “... all physical and mental manifestations which constitute individual appearances are interdependent and condition or affect one another, in a constant process of arising and ceasing.” (Bowker, John, ed. (1997), The Oxford Dictionary of World Religions, Oxford) Ahamkara (ego) is one of the four parts of the Antahkarana, the others being Buddhi (intellect), Manas (mind) and Chitta (memory). The Ahamkara is also a state of mind where one has bound itself to an external thing. Both the pratiya-samutpada and the Ahamkara are connected to Buddhism. I think the four other parts will be represented sometime in Destiny or already are. Like mentioned earlier, the pratiya-samutpada is trying to stop the Samsara, which is the continual cycle of birth, death and intermediate bardo state. If I remember correctly, in religion, once you reach a certain state of enlightenment (or something), you are freed from the cycle of life death and rebirth, and you can live eternally in another realm, so the pratiya-samutpada is a good thing in real life, but in Destiny, it could mean to stop guardians from being brought back to life and revived. (A lot of this information may be incorrect as I learned this from reading things on the internet and I don’t know a lot about these religions) That’s just some information without a real point, but I find some of it rather interesting. Thanks for reading to the end!

The longer and more info the better! I love understanding and learning more about this stuff thanks for all your hard work 👍

2 years later we fight them....

Positive I like that, talk about it work it out. The world needs more people like you. People fight change and are so dismissive towards good ideas.

what if the worm gods and ahamkara are just relateted or more of the worms are the dark version of the ahamkara kinda like how the darkness is the opposite of light with the traveler

Good length for the video. I listen while I'm at work so it passes the time really well

Bud got really cocky here. Massively wrong, I wish he was right though.

keep em long, byf, your way of story telling is very soothing and I don't get bored listening to you.. amazing work!

Dragons can be found flying in Venus

Please don't shorten these! I love the longer ones! It's amazing to just have it put together the way you do. ^_^

When you were talking about the Amakara using their will of mind powers, it made me think about the intro cutscene to TTK with the queen and her council using their mind powers to shoot those balls of energy at the Hive ships.

+My name is Byf Another awesome lore video! Keep them long and keep them coming!

Great episode man! And don't worry about making them too long, cover the topics thoroughly, especially if they have a lot too them

These are great. The one about Titans made proud to be aTitan. It makes me more emotionally invested the game. The same as you were in the Masterchief back in Halo. The story you yold about Shaxx and him holding the line was soooo good. The voice acting and etc is great really enjoy being immersed in this.

I really love your extra long lore videos which have more interesting content then the Destiny 'Story' itself. Keep it up. I like them a lot.

I know this has been out in the world for ages now, but the lore about the harmony also refers to them using, "dragon-wishes," to push the hive back. When Savathun sneaks in among the harmony so as to, "vivisect these dragons," "The worm our god laughs and laughs." I guess you could interpret this in a few ways, when coupled with the quote mentioned in the video. 1. The worm gods are pitting the harmony against the hive, using their desperation to turn them from the traveler, and plan on backing whichever side proves victorious. 2. There are ahamkara that are opposed to the worm god ahamkara, or are at least willing to side with forces counter to the worm god ahamkara. 3. The ahamkara really aren't the same as the worm gods, and have been working with beings touched by the traveler for a long time, whatever their reason is. 4. The worm god ahamkara are opposed to the ahamkara helping the harmony, and are effectively using the hive at this time as a proxy army to destroy other members of their species. I'm not weighing in on which of those is right, but those are the only options I see. Maybe the worm gods are just ahamkara that have been touched directly by the darkness?

The longer the video the more info you can talk about. Great video. Love the lore

I'm not seeing a straw poll in the links, but put me down for a hell yeah on any lore content. love your vids man! can't wait for the next

I agree with you Byf, with the lore and information, not to mention the Exotics I'm in full belief that The Arhamkara are indeed Dragons and God like Dragons at that, I hope we get more lore to fill in the blanks, but until then we'll just have to keep exploring the Stars for the answers, but one thing I have in mind is, maybe Xur and the Nine are connected to the Arharmkara

Byf: around the size of a horse The end of last wish: oh I'm a bog ol boi

I totally agree. Besides, after millions of years of dwelling underground, who knows how these dragons may look? I love these lore vids, by the way. Please keep 'em coming.

I NEED more of these lore videos! Battle of twilight gap next?

I love how @17:06 Oryx just goes, "You know what? Never mind...." Also, great work My Name Is Byf, keep it up!

I love the longer, in-depth lore videos

More Long episodes! These are awesome, a great way to delve into destiny's lore

First off, another amazing job on lore telling. Great content and explained in a linear easy to follow manner. On the subject of the Ahamkara and worms, I have no problem with them being one and the same. Though in no way would I be surprised if they were 2 separate entities and the worms had complete control of the Ahamkara race.

FANTASTIC story and explanation 'oh bearer of mine'! Enjoyed every second into the mysterious and little know topic of the Ahamkara.

Don’t forget that when writing legends and mythology, worm doesn’t always mean a literal worm body shape. In Metroid prime, the final boss has the appearance of a crustacean (an octopus in its true form) but is referred to as “the great worm” in some lore. So worm can also simply refer to something evil lurking within. Ie “the evil wormed it’s way into their hearts.”

What I'd like to see is a NPC for a season or something that leaves either a guessing theory or something where they made a protective deal with an Ahamkara. They would get something like a specific loot that they give out whenever deeds the Players do are completed or some other reward while they keep the Ahamkara secret and safe. And maybe the npc has an animation on interaction or idle animation where they keep a hand on their hand cannon whenever a player is nearby, as if they suspect that at any moment they have to fight and run like hell and escape the Tower and the City itself. And whenever they are left alone, they look about and quickly ask their ghost (if made a Guardian) if they are alone or they look about quickly before making quiet contact with the Ahamkara.

What an interesting video on an interesting subject. Alas, 7 years have passed, and there have been no new Ahamkara. Truly, they are gone for good and never coming back, o theorist mine.

I completely agree wit your statement about the worm gods being ahamkara because Eir is a draconic name meaning Fortress; Grand; Huge; Mountain in english

I agree that the Ahamkara/Worm hypothesis is definitely plausible although there is still evidence that remains unseen to be uncovered in the future. Now that Destiny 2 is out, there is more references to Ahamkara. Thank you for providing perspective to an unclear topic!

Just got the Skull of Ahamkaras Exotic in Destiny 2, glad i can learn how cool the helm is

Yes long episodes packed with theories and facts PLEASE I LOVE IT FEED ME

Ghost Fragment: Legends 3 says the call had to be silenced. Eris Morn has always been saying "the calls are silent". Since she is so close to the hive maybe the calls are from the worm which would mean if the calls are the same as the ahamkara the two would actually be connected. This would be why she lead us to our death killing oryx and everything just so she could get that crystal thingy in the end.

I really liked this theory Byf, it was over some very good bases, keep it up.

I like hearing long lore videos. Keep 'em going! And as for the Ahamkara theories, I'm personally on the side of them being of the same race of the Worm Gods. Makes the most sense to me, and in any case it helps tie things together. Good thing the Hunt happened before humanity got its own Oryx, eh?

some thing to add to your theory is that in old english the word worm is used to describe a dragon. In the book Beowulf one of the oldest english books known the word worn is used to describe a dragon that is fought as well as the word dragon. The use of the old definition of word would be clever word play by bungie to describe something that it self live longer than anything else that we know of.

Longer videos please. Love this lore.

Love the episodes long! Keep ALL the information!

Hi Byf you should check out the parallels between the lore of Destiny and that of Plato's Republic. It's mind blowing.

Hey man I'm not the longest sub to you but I want to tell you thank you for these lore videos keep it up! Me and my buddy watch one everyday on our lunch break

I'm still finding gems in 2020 👌. Cheers to the progress you've made!!

WE ARE NOW BLOOD ENEMIES BYF. JK love the videos, i like your general style. I found you from myelin and the planet destiny podcast with you both. Thanks for all you do with the lore for this community. Maybe the Ahamkara are part of the beyond light the warlocks began to seek out.

One of the 310 iron banner artifacts is a ahamkara scale, and the description is the hunter saying that the warlock doubted him, and said he couldn't do it, so the hunter did do it

To build on your translation from hive tongue to English( or whatever language is spoken by the city) There are sections in the books of sorrow where 2 words are used next to each other one in the text and another in brackets. for example: "Behold Eir, and Xol, and Ur, and Akka. The Virtuous Worms. Look upon us, and know that We are go[o]d." This may not shed light on anything lore wise, but I think its an interesting thing to contemplate

When you talked about the Ahamkara nurturing life on their bodies. What if The Dreadnought was made from the body of an Ahamkara? Probably really stretching or grasping at potentially nonexistent straws but i think it'd be awesome if that ended up being the case

..you sound so young, going back through these old videos

The reason why I believe the worms and ahamkara are different creatures 1. Worms are like parasites that live in host (hive creatures as of now) 2. In any grimoire card ahamkara are never mentioned as being a parasite 3. They actually show the worms in game on the dread naught your ghost can scan one

14:00 Dragons in ancient times were referred to many times as worms. Even in our modern time worm has been used to describe dragons, the Hobbit, for instance, Smaug is called the "dreaded worm".

I love this series. And please, keep the videos the same length

9:54 Byf...for the love of all that is good in the lore, please explain about this theory. If you want to do so of course. Seriously, these pieces of theoretical words, which binds with the lore of Destiny in a way, is fascinating to hear, especially about the mentality plane of existence. Reminds me of Interstellar when one of the astronauts is in this Fifth Dimension; using his physical motion of that exact place to play with the three-dimensional world.

I think it's a play on Words with the Worm Gods. In german folklore a large Dragon is often called Wurm or Lindwurm. Wurm in perticular translated into english is the Word Worm. In the German Grimoire it is written as Wurm as well wich makes it a lot more possible that the theory of the Worm Gods being Ahamkara pretty reasonable. And also, who says that an Ahamkara can't be corrupted by the Darkness to work as their emissary or that an Ahamkara would try to strike a deal with the Darkness and got the worst end of the bargain in the end and became enslaved and bound to the darkness? Anyway, Great Video again =) I hope Bungie will let us meet an Ahamkara ingame sometime in the Future. That would be great =)

Something that makes me all the more curious is the text of the Sealed Ahamkara Grasps: "Plating the Ahamkara bones in silver helps to quiet the auditory hallucinations... oh bearer mine." Are the Ahamkara planning something? Is there influence making us coat them to make them stronger?