Unfortunately the sane and intelligent ones don't get as much screen time because they and destiny generally agree, and destiny doesn't like conversations where he's just agreeing with the other person
@@PatriarchyPatrol He's been given enough time on Destiny's platform to lay out his position. My conclusion is that he's making bad faith arguments. That's not censoring. He's still able to put out his content online.
To be fair, the people he’d shit on for not knowing something generally deserve it due to said people he shits on generally pretending to know what they’re talking about. Like if someone claims ___ thing incorrectly, and Destiny just learned about the topic recently, he can still call out the other persons incorrect claim. He does a reasonable amount of research into the topics he chooses to discuss, at the very least more then the average person researches, so even extensive research done “yesterday” is better then someone who’s basing all of their info on whatever the last thing they heard was. Destiny will look into and think through things and not necessarily just accept everything at face value, and he has my respect for that even for things I disagree with him on
So? If he knows it he knows it. Doesn't really matter when he learned it, does it. Or is there a set period of time that someone has to know a fact for before they are allowed to form an opinion based on that fact. At least he actually does the research before making a strong statement on something
@@Loxer150I think pretty much all leftists should aim to be his level of moderate when it comes to not being an anarchist and complaining that showering is due to an unjust hierarchy but also not being some tankie freak statist either
oh damn, he's already talked to Destiny a bunch already, I started watching him just a few days ago, and went through a lot of his videos, and I was thinking it would be neat for him and Destiny to talk.
@@eartheater3956 someone who appears in Destiny's stream on a regular basis? If you've got a better word for it, feel free to suggest it. I don't really give it much meaning myself, I just use it as a general term if someone regularly talks to Destiny, so if you want to fight about it, go somewhere else lol. If not, sorry about the hostile energy haha.
@@shawncolacchio4999 No, I don't care to fight about it. I was just curious. Just a suggestion, take it how you will, but if you had said destiny orbiters I wouldn't have been confused. As I am not a regular consumer of destiny content, I don't know who he converses with on a regular basis, i didn't understand what your meaning was. I get you now though.
I agree, more of this would be amazing. I love hearing the thoughts talked out. Hearing both sides, hearing critical thinking, asking questions, so refreshing.
You are strawmanning Ben's position. His position is a lot dumber. He talked about selling your property if it will be under water in the near future. The Atlanteans are trying to get some new good land front property after all.
If people believed that sea levels were a real and present threat, beachfront property would be cheap. That’s probably more of a criticism of the reactive nature of markets than it is an effective denial of human caused climate change, though.
I agree, but let's face it, the redpill stuff _pays._ I won't necessarily fault a creator that's tangental to something that blew up that hard (Aba called it) if it gets him views and revenue. After all, it's that stuff that pays the bills so he can do the more esoteric stuff like this.
Andrew Sullivan has an article covering why Israel's transgressions have continued long after any land dispute from the Six Day's War. It is unfortunately titled "Why Sam Harris Won't Criticize Israel" because that frames it a pissing contest about two people, rather than the arguments. But Sullivan's arguments are good. I'll include one highlight. "It’s not just Palestinian terrorism and Muslim anti-Semitism that makes a one-state solution moot; it is embedded in the very meaning of Zionism. If Israel requires a Jewish majority to survive as a Jewish state, a one-state solution is anathema to it. And if all Israel wanted to do was have its tech sector thrive within (roughly) the 1967 borders, and embrace serious, US-backed security arrangements vis-a-vis Jordan, I’d be backing it to the hilt. Instead, as Palestinian terrorism from the West Bank has declined drastically - the Israelis have intensified their theft of Palestinian land. Those settlements deeply hurt, rather than help, Israel’s security - because they alienate most of her allies, exacerbate bitterness and suspicion, and make the possibility of a two-state solution moot."
this is a pile of nonsense because it hinges on the crazy idea that terror has subsided, it has not at any point stopped or slowed down and you must be blind and deaf to the truth if you think so
Destiny : “Why can’t Israel just keep what it occupied?” Also Destiny: “Russia has to return all of the Ukrainian territory that it’s occupied & even Crimea because threatening the World with nuclear blackmail sets a dangerous precedent. Might should not make right”
Idk wtf happened on destiny's wild mushroom trip a few years back. But i feel like since then, hes just completely aligned himself with whatever the establishment believes. To what end, i have no idea. But he seems to have made it a point to simp for dems no matter what they do or believe. Trying to position himself as the ultimate edgy political shill influencer, so he gets invited to the bohemian grove or something 😂
I am not very well educated on this shit, but it sounds like Israel was attacked, then crushed the invaders and occupied their land. If this is the case it just sounds like a completely different situation to Ukraine? But correct me if I'm wrong.
@@troublishoneif i occupy half of your house and you try to kick me out but i'm stronger than you, does that mean that i can take extra rooms, maybe the whole house from you?
Holy shit people are shitting on Destiny when he's asking for more information about a topic, atleast provide arguments, alternatives or something so that him or anyone else can read
He's not! He's clearly trying to both sides this issue because he cares alot about the opinions of his Jewish friends and doesn't want to see them catch heat for supporting literal ethnic cleansing.
@@EgyptConquerorI wish that i could have as simple a worldview as you. If i could just rationalise every event ever to "One side bad, one side good" i would never have to think again! The truth however, is that the topic of Israel and Palestine is incredibly nuanced and multifaceted, and its the reason why there is so much debate on the issue. If it was truly so one sided that Israel was just the ultimate bad guy who oppresses the poor Palestinians then we wouldnt even be having a discussion on the matter because it would already be apparent.
@@coreymeredith4001the truth however! The almighty truth! No bad no good just truth! Sensational contribution! If only I could think like you, craving cartoons and typing out micro aggressive takes! Teach me!
@@coreymeredith4001 isreal palestine is a really simple issue actually. One side has all the power, and has forced the other side into disconnected ghettos without freedom of movement or equal rights. You don't need to know anything about the history to see who is in the wrong. What historical facts could ever justify this state of events?
Absolutely wild that Destiny can have a stream earlier this week showing he literally didn't know where Egypt was or what countries counted as 'North African' and is now saying he's getting radicalized about Israeli history. Literally the meme about teenagers switching their political alignment with every youtube video they watch because they knew nothing about the topic beforehand. Honestly though, good on him for finally picking up some world knowledge. He even learned how to hang drywall.
Destiny is a smart guy, but he's truly an incurious ignorant dumbass when it comes to history or the demographics of the world. He only learns these topics insofar as it'll help win whatever debate he's preparing for or buthurt over. Sad!
Man, I remember when Lonerbox had 50k stream and now this. I have been watching Destiny for a while and never thought the crossover would happen. But I am glad. I think both of these guys can anchor each other. Loner is good essayist meanwhile Destiny is very good at on the spot analysis of arguments.
Honestly, ever since I found out matzo ball soup wasn't actually someone figuring out how to make soup out of mozzarella cheese balls, I've been pro Palestine.
This convo revealed a jarring lack of previous knowledge on Destiny’s part about Israeli history that he is thankfully in the process of rectifying after Fuentes. He should not even touch the JQue debate again until he’s ready. Thankfully Lonerbox is around to make great contributions.
JQ debates are not about history or foreign policy. It's about a conspiracy theory to justify genocide. You don't need to know much history to tackle their nonsense.
Will say his usual debates with nick aren't about the JQ funny enough it's usually racism, interracial people, or the holocaust, first time they've debated actual gulf history which Destiny clearly lacked a bit hopefully he does better next time
>This convo revealed a jarring lack of previous knowledge on Destiny’s part about Israeli history My guy Destiny could not find Egypt on a map last week. He doesn't know shit about anything unrelated to U.S. politics.
How is destiny so anti Palestinian? He ignores the lead up to 67 and goes into detail about how impressed he is wirh israels combat readiness rather than the carving out of Israel from the palestonian people. And the whataboutism with turkey, native americans and elsewhere post ww1 was weak.
I don't know if this is true but regardless it would be a bad look to come out of this research having a negative view of Israel since the whole Nick thing. So it will probably end with a "Its a complicated situation but fuck around and find out, Israel is really impressive, they are a good ally in the middle east ect"
The first question: apartheid states shouldn't exist. And the UK, as a colonial imperialist nation state, decided to duck with the Indigenous peoples there, made up of Palestinians and Jewish folk who had lived in the area peacefully, effectively, and together. That's one of the simple factors of an answer that could be encyclopedias worth
Why does destiny have to be so contrarian on this. If someone invades your home kicks you out, slowly takes more of your territory and kills your people in an incredibly uneven conflict do you not have a right to be mad
It’s complex. Who could know who’s in the right. The people living there or the people invading and putting them in open air prisons. Surely this is a nuanced issue
@@FiremanbothWhether it does or not, their critique is of destiny's take. He doesnt apply the "might makes right" standard to other situations so its irrelevant
Palestinians are ethnically Egyptian, Syrian, and Jewish. When Palestine existed as a Roman province the largest demographic were the Jews. If anyone deserves the name of Palestinian it would be the jews.
Idk why Destiny struggles so hard with this, when at the same time he talks about how he was thinking of killing that underage boy that was doxxing him cause it was costing him money/livelihood. Yet he struggles to understand the feelings of the average palestinian that regardless of international politics (which people were even less involved in 50 or 100 years ago and were less aware of since there was no internet and less communication/media) gets kicked out of their home by israeli military? Every argument I've heard about pro-israel is about some bullshit about how palestinian was "never a state" or something along those lines, as if the average person who gets kicked out of their home cares about bullshit like that. Its still morally wrong. As long as you can't empathize with that, and are instead looking at bullshit like international agreements, or what countries recognized palestine or whatever to prove legitimacy, then you will never get it, and more importantly you are missing the more human element in the equation of the morality of this issue
Morally, there should be no countries. Realistically, counties are made by might, not right. No one has the right to be a country. Including America. We took our shit, just like everyone else.
@@mindlander Yes realistically only actions actually matter. But that doesn't mean that there is no morality to countries/groups of people and how they act. Morality is subjective and I personally (along with most people I think) choose to hold countries to certain moral standards and not just shrug when they win something with military might.
@@mindlander because they were there already and they are the ones getting kicked out, because the other group was there 2000 years ago. I can see a point you are making that theoretically lots of people could have claim to a land in a similar manner, especially the older civilizations. But exactly because this is impossible to resolve (same as restitutions for past wars), my personal belief is that "claims" should only last for a certain amount of years. For example I'm from Greece, and Instabul/Constantinopole was "greek" at some point but it has been 600 years since and the vast majority of people who live there now are happy with the arrangement, therefore I dont think my country should have any reasonable claim over it. But in palestine there are millions of people alive who have been kicked out of their homes specifically, not just some arbitrary borders away from their homes. If you don't see that as immoral, then maybe you would if it happens to you. Or maybe you wouldn't, you'd just shrug and say 'might makes right' and go about your day. But most people would be angry at that and continue to try to take revenge and at this point its just one large jail area and one large prison that tries to fight back every once in a while Personally I dont think anything will happen - the international community just doesnt care enough. Slowly but surely the palestinians will get removed and over the next few dozens or hundreds of years it will all turn into israel. Still immoral though
That's fair. I see your point. The fact it's over religion makes me biased, as I think they're choosing religion over a better life, and that's their choice to make. I feel very sad for the children regardless. They have no choice.
Lol maybe read some literature on how every Arab state at the time was threatening genocide on the Israeli state and try to rationalize a country facing those challenges not preparing for a pre emptive strike
Destiny literally doesn't know sht about any of this lmao It's almost as bad as when he tried to claim that US Jewish Zionists weren't "Jewish" because they weren't born in Israel.
Here’s how I see it. The Jews and their culture are originally from the area we come call Palestine. For centuries they were conquered by many empires and moved around the world ultimately wing finally pushed out by Arabs who took their land settled the area in the first few centuries CE. The Jews were never truly accepted in any of the places the disparora brought them. This necessitated the need a for a land in which Jews could rule themselves without being discriminated against. A fitting place for them to be is the area where they are originally from which was originally called Judea but renamed by the Romans as Palestine to strip the area of the Jewish identity. Sure it sucks that some Arabs whose families been their for centuries (not thousands of years) had to be displaced. Unfortanley the seeds of this “Palestinian” displacement was down by their Arab Muslim Ancestors who contributed greatly to the Jews losing their homeland in the first place and the future reclamation of their homeland in the future.
@@Kirovxx One of the main reasons things are so effed up is because of the apartheid. What we're seeing now is the pendulum violently swinging back in the other direction.
Best discussion on this problem, even though not super extra knowledgeable, which is huge. Thanks for that. Excited for the future discussions about this. Just wanted to say that this really is so much more complicated then people abroad often assume. Most people in Israel and Palestine don't even wanna deal with this, so they just believe whatever the community says to believe. My 2 cents would be that i really agree with lonerbox's take that it's more practical at this point, but then, when he describes his solutions, i think that this is one of the most unpractical ways to resolve it, so nobody would even consider these proposals, at least not from the Israeli side. This would be the end of this state. And this is why it won't happen. It's like saying to the Irish - you get Ireland, sure, but here's northern Ireland, and here's eastern Ireland, and here's southeastern Ireland, and so on...and also, a few million of loyalists from all parts of the region are coming back to Ireland, oh and your Capital is divided and is on the border, also allll of Ireland is now 5 times smaller, so you are a micro state now. Good luck defending it, also almost all your neighbors are enemy states, or filled with people who hate you with a passion and some of them have proclaimed and acted upon the fact that they want to throw you to the sea and much much more...Good luck
@@myselftik you need to consider the size of the country. It's already tiny, and thus hard to defend. It'll be significantly smaller if we divide it even more from different sides. It'll become unimaginably harder to defend and live in. It's an exponential growth of difficulty. Imagine you have difficult neighbors, but each of you have an apartment of his own. Manageable. Now imagine you all live in one apartment, and you only have the room.
funny that you'd bring up Ireland, the IRA had a history of working with Palestinian militants 😂. Anyways, except for Iran what ME country really wants to see Israel gone these days or is even internally stable to wage any kind of aggression toward it? It's not the 70s anymore. It does still have enemies, but they're a far cry from what it used to face. Also, wanted to add that that's part of the reason Israel has held onto those regions that it won in '67, they were strategic. I don't see a point in giving them up either. Honestly, would just be better that Israel annexes them and stop stalling the conquest.
For those who don't know geography, the Sinai Peninsula is bigger than Isreal. There was never a "historic palestine". There was a Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, but never a palestine. And Yes, its weird how a country who had to defend itself multiple times and win wars would have to give land back. The Jews and the Muslims who lived there could have had their own states, but the Muslims refused that proposition multiple times.
There definitely was a historic Palestine, ask any credible historian. Israel invaded the Sinai peninsula unprovoked (with the help of France and the UK) in order to annex the territory and seize control over the Suez canal. Israel had to literally be FORCED by the US and USSR to withdraw its troops after it had already started sending in settlers. Like Lonerbox has said, Israel has unilaterally shot down numerous peace proposals. Peace proposals which the Palestinians side had already endorsed. Let's not sit here and pretend as if Israel was interested in anything but preserving the status quo.
So what if there was never a historic palestine? No excuse to ethnically cleanse people. Are we really going to grasp at these kind of ridiculous straws? You clearly haven't seen the video and are just espousing pro Israeli talking points. So what if Israel had to defend itself? No reason to occupy and enact military law on a people. So what if muslims didn't want to accept an Israeli state? The British who have no democratic mandate just decided to give the land to some people from Europe which lead to thr displacement of thousands of arabs who already lived there for decades. Would you bend over and give up your land and house? Retarded take.
@@mclovin9165 woa, slow down my man. Never said anything about the right to ethnically cleanse anyone. I did watch the video, if you did watch the video you would know Destiny was talking about 1948. If you did know what happened then, then you would know the only people that were going to be ethnically cleansed were the Jewish people living there. The arabs at the time living there left the land so that they could clean out the jews. The Jews fought back and won. Did the arab countries then care about the arab people who left after that, lol no they actually treated them poorly. This is all things that happened I'm not making a judgement call. And Who's the British... they owned the land and governed it. The people there were living under their rule (like how the Ottomans did before hand) I don't think you know how land and countries work. And yes, just because a state 'owns' the land, does not allow the government to do what it wants to the people living there but like they mentioned in the video, it went from a Israeli - Arab conflict to an Israeli - Palestinian conflict, its not as simple as 'bending over and giving up your house'
Nobody who hasn’t visited Israel/Palestine and talked to people on both sides of the border has a right to say that the conflict is simple and the solution is easy.
@@timekeeper2538 You have two states. Terrorism continues because many Palestinians have been raised from childhood to view Israeli people as demons and that their birthright is to the entire land of Israel (“from the river to the sea”). Israeli responses to this terrorism continue to ferment conflict and resentment among the Palestinian people, bolstering support for more terrorism (as has been the case for all of recent history). Meanwhile, hundreds of thousands (if not millions) are displaced by whatever land transfers are arranged, causing further resentment and economic crisis on both sides of the new border. And peace still hasn’t been achieved.
From what I heard just now on this 40 minutes - The Israelis entered Palestine, moved 700k people and commited mass murder (genocide probably I don't know the requirements). And now somehow they have claim to the land? Because their neighbors during that time used to be very violent and would've done the same thing to them. Well that time has passed now the US helps Israel every year the neighbors aren't as active anymore yet Palestinians continue to be discriminated against. How does it sound to you? The Israelis basically destroyed random Palestinians homes e families because of their "dream" bullshit religious idea. They didn't have to move there when they knew they wouldn't be treated well. So yea the conflict is simple it's just people like you are murder apologists - at least keep the same mindset with Russia and agree that Russia is taking its god given land, no? Keep the same mindset with Serbia committing genocide on people of Kosovo.
"Oh noooo how dare you criticise poor innocent palestine, 😢 They were kicked out of their countryyy 🥺🥺, so theyre justified in committing terrorist acts and overthrowing rulers to take controlll ☺️"
Is it possible to upload Destiny's research sessions for his Israel research. Having trouble finding everything in the vods, sins i cant watch every stream just to find it sadly. On one of the channels.
@@amythomspon956 they are also on youtube, and i dont have time to scim through all of them, Just to find everything. I watch few vods everynow and then but I don't time to watch everything and follow along the most recent stuff. Sadly I do not have infinite time.
@@ssStolengrad it is in fact really easy to skim the vods for the parts he isn't watching a video, and is just reading off the text from an article, because those will be the part sin the vod where there is not a video playing on screen. Glad to have helped.
the ottomans were Muslim but tolerated other religions so they managed to keep the peace somewhat. Most people in that regiona re Muslim so it made things calmer with an Islamic overlord. Housing Jews in Western Europe in 1948 wasn't feasible since they were recovering form the war and still were bombed out.
@@Trecesolotienesdos it might not have been the primary reason but it was a factor. Also, who cares. Most israelis are secular and im sure israelis would not be happy with christian arabs/palestinians either, so its not just about religion
Who deserves land is a bs question. It entirely depends on the circumstances. In some cases it's obvious who the land belongs to. In other cases? Honestly, sometimes both sides have a valid claim to the land. That's how I feel with the Palestinians and Isrealies. I would side with the Isrealies because that benefits me, but I'm not against Palestinians fighting for land they see as theirs.
@@Kirito_2016 Doesn't that just lead to infinite fighting, if anyone can claim any land and all claims are equally valid? If you have some way of evaluating which claim is more valid, that would inherently be one possible answer to the question, you'd just need to verbalize it.
@@Kirito_2016 When you said the question is bs. When you said "it depends", you were referring to an answer to the question that's in your head, that you just aren't saying, contradicting the first thing. The point being that if you aren't just lying, you wouldn't agree with your own statement... Do you understand what a hypothetical is? How would you feel if you did understand?
@TimPortantno the question is bs because it's not always obvious who deserves land. But I CLEARLY said sometimes it's very obvious that one party has a clear claim to the land and one party does not. Therefore, I never said that all land claims are equally valid. I may be just fucking weird but when I respond to someone in an argument like this, I'm countering their points. If you're just saying that's just a hypothetical and not countering my point, my question is why? I'd just agree with you, IF all land claims are equally valid, THEN yes, that would lead to infinite fighting. But reality doesn't work that way. So I don't see your point.
It doesn't make sense they leave out Jordan the entire time. Jordan was promised to Palestinians in 1917 as well, is 80%+ Palestinian, they occupied the West Bank(why it's called that) and had basically the same flag and money, and literally genocided the Palestinians, including killing 20,000 in one day(referred to as Black Friday). The British just promised it to the Saudis, and gave it to a Saudi royal family, called the Hashemites. The other 20% is "hashemite" which is just Saudis... Jordan is clearly the Palestinian homeland. They need to do a Welsh/English type of arrangement. Literally "3 state solution".
The Arab states didn't "invade Israel" upon independence. They secured the Palestinian territories against Israeli terrorism, and Israel used it as an excuse to expand their holdings.
@@webdesigntutz Life tip: just saying "cope" doesn't mean anything. It's really important in life to do the reading. You have to read primary documents, read or hear from historians, etc etc. Wikipedia isn't enough.
Very interesting video. I'm at the same point after tangentially reading a little on the six days war and such. Didn't get around to dig deeper yet, since this isn't really a policy issue here.
Destiny was privileged enough to get a free education from him first time, now its time for Destiny to use those internet bucks he has earned to pay back.
@@counselorguy5481 Ah great more globalist Jews with an opinion, Aah Blumenthal the scumbag that had his wife falsify a interview with Fuentes, yeah real trustworthy guy
What?! Hezbola is not a small fish. Many of the badr brigade from Iraq joined with hezbola to form a major fighting force in Syria. Israel now has the major issue that iraqs 1 million strong mardi army is Iranian controlled. You recently saw the mardi army at the Swedish embassy in Iraq. I’ve done many tours of the ME and it’s not as straight forward as made out here.
this is one of those questions that seems more complicated than it actually is, and one of Israel's strategies for decades has been to obscure the reality behind a smokescreen of fake nuance. international law is very clear, because the entire motivation for the creation of the United Nations was to prevent exactly this: as of October 1945, it is unlawful to acquire territory by force. there's no debate, there's no nuance, it doesn't matter if the whole thing starts with another country committing an illegal act of aggression against you - if you use force to seize territory, your claim to and occupation of that territory is illegitimate. Israel's borders end at the Green Line, full stop.
If its always unlawful to acquire land by force, then doesn't that make the 3 other countries at fault for the 6 day war? Hello? Why do people like you ALWAYS ignore or excuse the aggressive actions and intents of the others and simply cry about Israel's reaction. I don't care what international law says, if you aggress upon me for no reason and end up losing resources and land because you f***** up... That's your problem. Don't try and attack people for your own selfish goals next time. What you're saying is the equivalent of what might be about to happen in the middle east between the US and Iran. If you f*** around with our military and trade for NO REASON, then get your entire navy wiped out and occupied... Sucks to suck. Any argument stating the US shouldnt attack in response and hold control over the area for their own safety is one made purely out of ignorance and/or bias. 'Nuff said.
@@elite7329 it's not a pragmatic answer and the reality is that Israel will turn the Levant into a sea of glass before they return to the '67 borders, but the US needs to decide whether they care about international law or not. i genuinely don't think Americans/American lawmakers truly understand the damage their "condemn our enemies'/ignore our friends' violations of international law" position does to their credibility in the eyes of international partners, including a lot of their allies. there's a reason so many African/South Asian allies - allies that America is really going to need moving forward - reacted to American pressure to condemn Chinese aggression in the S. China Sea and Russia/Ukraine with "yeah, this is bad, but you turn a blind eye when you and your friends do the same thing, and at least China's building us a new port"
@@shedshitley I love how you're unable to levy the same kind of argument about international law against the Arabs, but no problem against Israel. Bias bias bias.
Loner's wrong about Jordan, the bulk of Jordan's population is descended from the Palestinian refugees who resettled there, Jordan in fact was the only Arab state to offer full citizenship to the Palestinians. The mass deportation of Palestinian refugees occurred in Kuwait in response to the PLO's support for Iraq. As for Lebanon Palestinians literally tried creating a proto-state in Lebanon to act as a lunach pad for attacks into Israel proper, hence the subsequent Lebanese Civil War they kicked off. Where ever they go either they don't get integrated (Syria, Egypt) or they fully integrated (Jordan), or partially integrated (Algeria, Tunisia, Kuwait Lebanon). But instances where their Partially or fully they attempt to overthrow or subvert the government they live under (Jordan and Lebanon are two pressing examples of this).
@@Re-Todd_Howard but they are not culturally similar. There s nothing as an "arab" culture, every arab country is vastly different and even has it's own version of dialect of arabic.
>Lebanon Palestinians literally tried creating a proto-state in Lebanon to act as a lunach pad for attacks into Israel proper So I checked whether this is true and it's just not. They created welfare systems and vocational schools to take care of their own as they held virtually no rights within the state and had no access to Lebanese social security. Didn't bother reading any further. You're either a liar or spectacularly incompetent.
Hey Lonerbox, why is Marwan Barghouti in prison? Hey Lonerbox, why did the Taba talks not succeed? What was happening in Israel around that time? I believe some called it a "Shaking Off", others called it "Suicide bombing busses full of civilians"
Genuinely good discussion, and cool to see Destiny educating himself on this kind of stuff. Even funnier is that it was motivated by Fuentes spouting lies that he would need research to argue against, kind of giving another supporting argument for engaging with the political extremes; we probably should be called to be more knowledgeable on this stuff.
The problem isn't gaining the knowledge, the problem is the lack of critique of knowledge. Liberal especially have the hardest time being skeptical of what they are reading, especially since the majority of news and literature is written by liberals. If Destiny can't acknowledge the faults of information gathered on both his side and Nicks side, Nick will always win the optics game. The problem is just because your able to back up your claim with evidence, doesn't mean you defeated your opponent's claim. This is the problem Destiny had.
Wait, what? Throughout the video it seems he's researching Israel and Palestine, and feels like he got a hot a take that's wrong that's why he asked LonerBox, no?
True. He should just say Isreal bad, Palestinian terrorists good, and soynod along. I too will pretend Palestinians are just victims and not ever doing terroristic actions. Stunning and brave
@@sidhamze4239guess Israel should bomb Italy then, since the Romans kicked them out of "their country"? Or should it all be Turkish, since it was the Ottomans' land? Or Saudi/Iranian/Syrian depending on who we see as the rightful Califs (and their "successors")? This is just a great game of where to put the "cut-off", admitting that and how complicated it makes stuff doesn't hurt. I personally firmly believe Israel should stop any further settling immediately and best roll back previous ones, but this ain't it chief.
If it was the 80s, destiny would TOTALLY hate Mandela and be like "well, the problem is that if the Blacks vote, the Boers lose their homeland. Seems like a fuck around and find out situation."
Not necessarily. South Africa has always been one racially diverse nation where one race decided to fuck the rest over. The Isreal situation has more to do with national border issues and whatnot.
he wants talking points against fuentes so he drives himself into a zionist corner, he needs to understand that defending jews = good, defending zionists = very very bad
@@joebuddensego626 It's crazy because only a couple of years ago Destiny was debating Alt-righters about how ethno-nationalism is wrong and how there shouldn't be any ethnostates...
@@joebuddensego626He’s too pro American government and establishment. He can’t admit that america has non pure intentions and activities. So he can’t admit that america controls and uses Israel. Which is the true answer.
@@kevbarker8108 lol I could point out endless moral contradictions it’s just a waste of my time. With the cult like following and everything. Lol keep on looking for the sheepdog for the answers to life lol
18:39 I mean, I'm pretty sure Israel benefitted a SHIT TON largely from like... US equipment and US intelligence... Like the only reason Israel was able to destroy Egypt's air force so quickly and thoroughly was due to US intelligence... I think you also even had the Israeli's like, swooping in via helicopter and I think stealing or destroying some satellite dish or whatever, and I think that this operation caused communication problems for Egypt and/or helped Israel's communication? I just remember something to do with them swooping in on a helicopter and doing something to some satellite dish which I found impressive and I think it was another thing they did following US intel... They didn't get US help in terms of soldiers, but it's like Ukraine... The Americans are definitely spying on all these countries and passing off information on strategic targets to the Israelis... And yeah, a lot of the equipment also came from America I believe...
Not even remotely true. Israel was not an American ally until after the 6 day war. 99% of their weaponry up until that point came from France, and their intelligence (like Egyptian advancement on the Sinai peninsula) was actually from some of the earliest usage of drones in military history (if not the first). They literally tied cameras to RC airplanes and flew them over the border. This trope of "Israel only won because of American support" is not remotely true, they won because of the preemptive strike on Egyptian airstrips (the largest airforce in the ME at the time) which gave them air superiority.
@@PrussianBlu3 No, I used my own brain and critical thinking to see in what ways the claim could be false instead of automatically finding ways it could be true so it better fits my narrative.
So much is clearly omitted in this conversation. According to Benny Morris there was no policy of ethnic cleansing Palestinians during 1948. Ethnic Cleansing of Jews from Mena was before 1967 war. The British often capitulated to the Arabs, closing their borders to Jews fleeing Europe, it was this that led rise to militias that turned on Britain. The British didn't give Israel to Jews. The British went to the UN for a recommendation after the series of terrorism and jail breaks shocked Britain. The UN recommended partition. Britain declared withdrawal within a year or so after, and when they did Jews declared a state on UN reconnection. Stuff like this.
If Palestinians don't deserve a state then why does Israel? Palestinians' descendants were there for centuries before the current State of Israel. Netanyahu said that Hamas and the PLO want Israel to end. but then i guess he'd be biased.
@@definitelytherealsaitama6986 Palestinians have been living their for a while too, when Jews were not the dominant group. Why must they leave? they should share it.
I don't think Palestinians are a distinct ethnic group. Palestine is a reference to the Philistines, but it was renamed by the Romans after the Philistines no longer existed. They were Aegean sea peoples believed to have come from Crete.
Odd that when Jews hypothetically vote for special rights it's tyranny but when the Arabs do it, it's merely considered "inevitable". If they can assure democratic rights to minorities, it doesn't matter if there is one or two states, or their majorities. The issue is that Destiny and even LonerBox know in practice that can't be assured, so the whole thing is pointless to discuss in those terms...
There was no ethnic cleansing in Palestine, unless of course you are referring to the Jordanians and Egyptians expelling all the Jews in the areas they controlled after the ceasefire agreements
@@mclovin9165 they left at the direction of the Arab leaders and to avoid the war that they started. If you want to see an actual ethnic cleansing I suggest you find out what happened to the nearly million Jews who lived throughout the ME. Hint there are almost none today
It's nice to hear this side of the story being presented on the internet. Thanks for actually discussing the true history of Israel in a serious and respectful manner to all sides involved. I also just want to add that all of those solutions which people say "well why does this side not just do that" have probably been considered by both sides, and if they've been rejected and you don't know why, it's probably much more complex than you think it is... I don't understand a lot of it either, just bringing up a pov of understanding and not hatred. We need more love in the world.
@@wyattoutlaw2370 People like you are gonna get purged from his community really soon. Enjoy your time under the sun but when political season kicks in, comments like these will get you banned from literally every single platform he has.
While I am glad that Finkelstein brings up the topic of the Holocaust-related extortion by Jewish NGOs, he is a tankie, one that supports the fascist government of Russia (weird doublethink right there). The guy lacks intellectual integrity.
I know like just watch the last three interviews Lex did if you really want context. The Israel side is "we are law abiding". The Palestinian side is "they're coming into our home and claiming it as theirs based on laws in a society I am not allowed citizenship in". Destiny over here like "well it is legal". Did MLK Jr. teach us nothing about the futility of laws as an ethical standard?
Destiny's arguments in this case are sounding vaguely like that realist history professor he wouldn't agree with when the Ukraine conflict began. i'd be curious to hear them talk more about why ukraine/russia comflict is different than this one. I can say US-Indigenous conflict is different at this point because of how old it is and developed it is. If there were only tiny traces of palestine then perhaps a "land back" idea wouldn't be applicable. Same thing with US, it's agregious what has happened in the past but we are here now and cannot undo what's been done. It is not our job to evacuate the US and find new homes in other countries anymore, rather recognize the history of our country and provide as much social help to indigenous people we can (alongside a healthy amount of preserving culturally important lands).
Yasser Arafat, the PLO and subsequent leaders of Palistine has received a lot of money and funding from Isreal. If you want the best for them, electing Hammas does not help the people. The people are being used by pawns by foreign goverments who don't even like them. Enabling that as normal will only make the Palestinians lives worse.
the best way i learned about this struggle is actually through gypsy brides on tlc. its incredibly telling getting to see the struggles of actual stateless people who only have a culture to fall back on.
why isn't there a white version of Israel? why isn't there a christian version of Israel? the US used to be the white christian version of Israel back in the 1800s but not anymore because that was considered racist, but it is ok if Israel is one.
All this shows about Destiny at the core is his lack of understanding of Nations and Nation-states which is why he thinks most right wing europeans are whitnats. Destiny has no care for the Palestinian people (Nation) as a collective, therefore he wants them to abandon there culture and heritage and move to a new land or just flee totally from there own people. He does not implictly care for there cultures or traditions that will be diluted in some way if they move somehwere else in mass droves and if not then completely eliminated. Match this onto Europe to where people like Destiny amongst other American based Leftists and even some right wingers they do not understand the concept of a Nation-state or lkeepinga nation alive. He just wishes to see everything let in because Nations to him really do not matter only economic conditions and welfare matter. He would soon let lets say England (literally Land of the Angles) become a majority asian state because of this. Also the reason why “Nationalism” has now come to be known as “evil word” by many because they simply do not know what it means. Nation-ism. It’s basically putting your People first, your Nation.
@@KoopstaKlicca Soo preserving a people is bad? Would that mean you would advocate for a genocide of a people/nation without it being morally wrong because apparently preserving nations is “clownish”. I mean if you are up for genocide just say it it’s time for people like you to go full mask off.
@@KoopstaKlicca another question is. If you support Ukraine why do you support them? All of the messaging towards why we should support Ukraine is largerly based upon the idea that Russia will eliminate the Ukrainian people, therefore the Ukrainian nation will be eliminated. Should we now no longer care about Ukraine? Since hey caring about your people is “cringe”.
@@daasnahk5058 Because the traditions, culture, community and character of my Nation are very important, highly important. The Nation you are born in is permanent, and you should be proud of that fact and you should aim to preserve that as a goal. It is a unique collective the people of that nation al share and it’s a link that binds that large State together, through the Nation (community). If you rip away these bonds and replace them with mass amounts of different peoples all coming from different cultures then the Nation-State is destroyed and it becomes overridden with division and hate internally alongside the destruction of your native nation. Crime rates increase, social divison increases and overall the state that once held only one nation which was highly unified, happy and healthy is now the opposite. Sure for the rich like Destiny “just move away” is a good solution because he has all the options in the world. He through his wealth has become an Internationalist and no longer cares for his own people, this is reflected in modern day liberal and leftist politics as internationalism is a core part of there doctrine. However this harms the people they are supposedly helping, the workers. The workers/working class only have 1 state throughout there entire life and that is typically there nation’s. It is therefore held by most working class people who have meaning in there lives as a very important part of there country which is why Populism and Far-right politics that focuses on this importance of the nation thrives with them. Simply put, it gives you a goal and a uniqueness and a community that “multiculturalism” destroys. Internationalism and globalism doesn’t work, Nationalism does.
Do you think Native Americans should be able to have reservations? Or should they have to shut up and just assimilate into American culture? If you do thinks reservations should exist , you agree with ethnostates in scenarios where minorities are surrounded by people who would oppress them. Israel is the same.
One unfortunate truth is that no matter what Palestinians deserve, many, if not most, would not accept statehood unless Israeli's lose theirs. Destiny mentioned it, but most Palestinians do not accept the idea of two-state solution.
well tbf tho its an israeli state is a huge compromise on their behalf and they gain nothing from it other than being kicked out of their previous homes and land locked. its p understandable you cant deny that
Please look into the work of Dr. Jacques Gauthier when researching historical rights regarding to international law. He spent 25 years researching it and has a 1,200 page thesis on it with sources pre Balfour. I suggest the Jerusalem Sovereignty : Gauthier speech. Crucial information
Can’t they go somewhere else? How does that not apply to Israel The Palestinians were there. Apparently Destiny is only cool with defense and your own property if it’s random American dorks
Lonerbox is being kind of dishonest about saying Israelis didn't want peace in the 2000's, he doesn't acknowledged it came right after Camp David where Israel offered to Palestinians almost everything they could have wanted and was answered with the second Intifada, aka the biggest terror wave
Minute 36: A unilateral withdrawal to 67' borders has several difficulties: 1. As lonerbox said, 500k Israeli settlers in the West Bank is hard to remove. 2. It's hard for the Palestinians execpting peace without a full right of return, which is a deal breaker for both sides. 3. 67' borders mean a withdrawal of Isreal from half of Jerusalem, which includes the historic Jewish quarter as well as most of the holy sites. 4. A withdrawal has a strong likelihood of Iran or any other radical entity feeling the power vacuum. In the Israeli conscious Gaza is the proof for that.
It's sad but I think the only way this ends is if Israel takes both territories and the Palestinians are given International support to settle and thrive in a newly created state for them. Arab countries need to accept that Israel isn't going anywhere and anyone who attacks it will lose.
I agree. The best case scenario if maybe the iseraelies can provide a path to citizenship for the Palestinians or maybe grant them some designated cities or towns ruled by them or else I can even think of the worst case
@@adedayooyegunju828 Not gonna happen because the influence of Iran, Syria and Lebanon are too strong on the Palestinians and they want to keep using them as a launching pad to attack Israel. For that reason all these countries will never accept a resettlement/integration program
Literally no country on planet earth is going to agree to the ethnic cleansing of millions of people, keep dreaming. The way this ends is Palestinians receiving full Israeli citizenship and equal rights.
@@adedayooyegunju828I don’t even support Israel but why on earth would they even try to let those ppl into their country? They aren’t idiots like Europe or the US lol
3:57 sorry this statement is just so wild to me. needing to talk to someone to deradicalize you from making such a statement like "do they even deserve the land, just let them go somewhere else" and not even reading up on the nakba. thats just fucking crazy.
@@mcyg2079 i- when did i say he needs to read everything right now. i said its absurd he has such a wild position having only read up on like 1/8th of the conflict, which is something he'd agree with in any other context lmao
@@mcyg2079 its still a wild, ridiculous thing to say with your whole chest like that. and if you were honest you know if he heard anyone else make a wild claim about anything else, he'd call them out, no matter where in their research journey they are lmao
A good resource for looking at the development of nationalism after the Second World War is Prof. Joshua Landis at the University of Oklahoma. He's the head of the Center for Middle East Studies there and does work mainly related to Geopolitics of the Greater Middle East, mainly related to Lebanon and Syria, but he provides some good context to what was happening in the region at the time.
LonerBox is really taking things out of context, or at least out of chronological order. The Jewish paramilitary organizations formed as a response to growing violence from the Arab population. Most of these organizations, like the Hagana, were formed in the 1920's, and they only become somewhat serious after Jews were massacred in 1929 in the Palestine riots. The Hagana was still completely useless and unorganized in 1921, during the Jaffa riots, were about 50 Jews were killed in their homes and women were raped. Did the Irgun and Lehi massacred Arabs later? 100%. But they didn't start this mess. And it's a little fucked up to characterize Jews as blood thirsty ruthless killers where pretty much everywhere in the diaspora Jewish communities were fairly peaceful, keeping to themselves and definitely not ganging up on the locals. Also the Palestinians did get a state - the British partition plan that was the basis for the foundation of Israeli divided mandatory Palestine to TWO states, a Jewish state and an Arab state. But like 5 Arab armies invaded Israel on the day it declared independence, and in the aftermath of the 48 war, Egypt took a junk of "would be Palestine", Jordan also took a piece of it, and Israel took a piece. But if these countries wouldn't have launched an attack that failed, then nothing would prevent the Palestinians to establish a state alongside Israel back in 48. I'm very confused as to why people don't see how this as a root cause of the Palestinian problem. Any peace offer that includes the right of return is impractical. Giving millions of Palestinians the right to return to Israel de facto makes Israel another Arab country. I really don't see how that's even remotely reasonable. I think there is a place to discuss reparations of some sort, but you cannot grant all this population an Israeli citizenship. Israelis might as well just pack their shit and go live in Alaska.
