As an old man, retired Army Officer, history and tank enthusiast, I love your videos. I just have to keep it hidden from my fellow 11 Bush comrades. A behind closed doors “tread head” is an infantryman’s apostasy.
Me too! This dovetails neatly into Steve Zaloga's book about the development of the M4 Medium. It too was bounced about between the various players: Devers was head of Armored Force (before they sent him to Europe), McNair was head of Army Ground Forces, and Barnes, head of Technical Division of Ordnance. They were all brilliant people but with slightly different viewpoints. But it was a pity that so much time was lost on Dever's pet project, the M7 - although I sometimes wonder if it can be blamed as much as people do for the late appearance of the M26. It did interfere with the mid-life development of the M4, I think. The book is called Armored Thunderbolt - The U.S. Army Sherman in World War II. Published by Stackpole Books (who else?). I couldn't put it down.
The interesting thing to note about the 3rd and 9th Armored getting trained on the 90mm is the stress that the civilian contractor, I believe his name was Price, put on proper boresighting and aiming for certain spots on enemy tanks. When met with incredulity from the tankers in the 11th Armored Division (what does this civvie puke know about hitting anything in specific on a tank with a 90mm gun) Mr. Price set up a row of German helmets across a lake about 625 yards away (I may be a few yards off here but it was definitely around 600 yards) and proceeded to snipe each and every helmet with the 90mm. No complaints about Mr. Price after that, and as things often happen, the gunners set to work to improve upon Price's shooting. Which they did to great effect! In my searches for researching the T26E3/M26, this gentleman's thesis paper really takes the cake and hits all the points I'm looking for when reading about a certain type of tank from development through combat and beyond, I highly suggest anyone interested in the Pershing to give it a read! digitalcommons.liberty.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1517&context=masters
I recall that when attempts were made to assign veteran Sherman crews to Pershing, experienced crews said No. They were comfortable with what they knew (the M4) and had safety in numbers to avoid Special Taskings, i.e., we need your Pershing to do this or do that, 24 hours a day.
Nick’s commentary has one great advantage over many of the sources available on the subject matter. Look up entries on tank books and you’ll just get a few snippets and a ton of technical detail. But what this article gives you is context and perspective. Great stuff, Nick is right up there with David Fletcher, from Bovington Tank Museum. He needs to be writing, really - the content is great, both in depth and breadth of knowledge, narrative of timeline, major players and major events. Recommend the presentations Nick gave on M4 design and Tank Destroyers to anybody who liked this video; you’re guaranteed to learn something new even if you’ve studied history for years.
@@kreuzrittergottes9336 If you fuck up, fuck up spectacularly so that the boys at USAHEC can marvel over your stupidity for decades and try to find some way for the army to learn from it.
Lol! My tank M1 in 1983/4 Was named "Deguello" It is a song meaning No Quarter It was played by the Mexican Army to the defenders of the Alamo. D 1/67 2AD
They usually end up going back and having to change the initial versions or make them less than fully combat rated even when they test the shit out of them. If the first bunch are going to be not as good anyway you might as well get the production lines going and work out the bugs in that at the same time. They aren't idiots.
Tanks have always fascination me as I'm sure it does many others. Having served in the Aviation branch of the US Army in the 70's I probably didn't miss the frozen experience most tankers enjoyed during Reforger exercises on the frozen tundra of southern Germany in and around the Fulda Gap. Romantic but not practical. I am an avid watcher however and very much enjoy the history you provide. Thank you!
Love this. In the War Thunder computer game I really enjoy its T25 incarnation, which seems to the the (one-off?) version that included semi-stabilisation of the turret. They way the game has it modeled (accurately?) it is sluggish speed-wise but has great reverse and turning and is generally brilliant at peeking out and shooting its 90mm gun. Good fun. I pair it with the M36 Jackson.
I just started watching these videos. I love the history behind what was done when, and why. Puts a whole new perspective on this. Reminds me of our American history teacher in high school. Mr Lowe made us think about things, and it put a different perspective on the whole subject. Thanks
Chief Nicholas I appreciate you sharing your vast knowledge of tank designing, WW2 battles and armored theory. You are very good at conveying the big picture on why things were made as they were on these famous historical WW2 tanks. The various tank statistics you provide + the opinions of the combat experienced armored crewmen; really gives us a well rounded understanding of WW2 armored evolution. TANK YOU Sir!!!
11:24 "Why build production lines of two vehicles when one of them will do?" Apparently the US Navy didn't learn this lesson even 75 years later. *cough* Littoral Combat Ship *cough*
It's not the Navy, it's called Congress. The military doesnt get to decide what they buy, its Congress. There's a reason why the US has something like 10,000 stockpiled Abrams or 8 pounds of government stockpiled cheese per person.
The thing is....once adapted 5" versions of the HVAP gets distributed they will most likely make a different saboted version for the 6" guns of the Zumwalt....in the end the guns will be functional. They will probably remove one gun for more VLS for more area defense ESSM or VL-RAM and some NSM. The focus seems to be surface warfare now.
OnTheSpectrum the FCS concept was pretty hilarous. It basically it was taking the Bradley’s development process and applying it to a whole family of vehicles.
It was meant to tie down german resources, by trying to move and get away with 20 extra 45 tons tanks, that they couldn't use anyway because they broke down all the time and had no ammunition for it. Clever plan !
The joy of a melodious voice without music! In an opera that would not work (although I might listen to operas) but in a video about tanks it's just bliss.
Interestingly, in Steven Zaloga's book Perkshing vs Tiger (Osprey series) he notes that Fireball was repaired and returned to service about a week after it was knocked out in Elsdorf. As noted, the Tiger I was immobilized in building rubble and was abandoned by its crew. Therein lies an important point about the vulnerability of the German heavy tanks - the ability to recover them and perform maintenance was practically nil at that stage of the war. Has anyone published an assessment of German armor lost to malfunction versus losses to hits by allied opposition?
Believe it was about 50/50 in Normandy, primarily due to fuel shortages during retreats. Tho to be fair whoever is on the defensive will have a harder time recovering equipment in general.
1Morrel, such a study would be interesting, because the Anglo-American ability to recover/repair battle-damaged tanks and other vehicles was one of the great underappreciated Allied technological triumphs of the war. Trained crews proved tougher to replace than the tanks, in fact. One reason why U.S. armored formations were reduced to "drafting" guys from other jobs to be tank crew. and then training them more-or-less at the front, without them returning to the 'States to attend armor school at Ft. Knox, Kentucky.
The Germans were just as adept at recovery and repair as the allies were when not losing ground. Not a single Tiger was lost in June and July 1944 in Normandy due to not being able to recover them. That changed in August when they lost ground quickly. All armies abandoned tanks when having to retreat quickly. The French in France 1940, the British in North Africa 1941/1942, the Soviets in Barbarossa 1941 and summer 1942. The Germans were increasingly losing the ability to do much of much from 1944, due to the overall strategic situation of the war.
Perfect timing - I've just finished Spearhead, and can't recommend it enough to anyone interested in tanks and first hand experience stories. What I thought was particularly good was the way it weaved Clarence's story with that of Gustav, a tanker from the other side, and the fateful collision of their destinies in Cologne. Damn Good book!
I like reading, I like listening. Honestly, I don't always agree with you, but life would be boring if we all did. I enjoy your delivery of information. It helps that you a wry sense off humor. Keep being you!
Thanks again for this informative and concise intro in to the T26 Mr. Moran ;) :P Later I will be watching the 3rd part of your museum tour with Sofilein with a nice mug of caffine.
Edit: I'm not sure the exact video I'm referring to is still on youtube but the footage is still out there, just my timestamp might be wrong. I encourage anybody who hasn't already seen it to search youtube for 'Battle for Cologne - tank duel' & see the footage from the T26 knocking out a Panther. Theres a clip that seems to begin at the exact moment the panther took a hit, and you see the crew bailing out and the tank catching fire - you can even see flames through the hole the pershing put in the side of it. Also at 7:45 you can see the commander of the M4 that was knocked out has had his left leg blown off at the knee, yet still climbed out of the tank unassisted, the remainder of his leg still smoking. Puts things in perspective.
@John Cornell I was looking at it purely as a tank engagement. You just prompted me to watch 'Battle of Cologne 1945 - A young woman between the frontlines - The original source'. Not sure it was the exact same tank engagement but definitely part of the larger battle. Wow, a car drove right through the crossfire, the driver was killed and she was shot. US medics treated her but then the tanks were re-engaged & backed up & apparently ran her over (its not 100% certain it was the same woman but her surviving sister said its her in the footage). The tankers probably didn't even know she was there.
@John Cornell no you made me look into the human side of it when I usually look at tanks as exciting machines, don't be sorry. Hopefully she was already unconscious when it happened. Cheers
The Chieftain is very good in holding your attention, excellent delivery. Tankies talking tech are normally the military's answer to Mogadon so a Bravo Zulu to the Chieftain.
'A concealed Tiger tank fired three shots from about 100 yd (91 m). The first penetrated the turret through the machine gun port in the mantlet, killing both the gunner and the loader.' Ouch. An 88 at 91 meters through the MG port is not going to tickle. :/
This video was 4 years ago but I keep coming back to rewatch it along with all of the other vids the chieftain had, since I can't wait for another one.
The problem with thinking "the 76 is good enough" is that the enemy is probably not thinking that and developing better tanks. That kind of thinking inevitably gets you to a place where you may frantically have to play catch up.
Great video. Would there be enough content to do an in depth video on Australian Tank Design/Production/Doctrine/Anything tank related? Same thing with Canada and other Commonwealth Countries. Love to see you read first hand accounts/stories/diary entries/letters from real tank crews as well
There is info on line and several books on the topic. The Australian effort showed what could be done on a shoe string but once the Japanese became involved in WW2 the need for a anti German tank faded, plus the US would not supply components like air cooled MG's and pushed the Sherman which was not the best tank available to fight the Japanese.
@@TheChieftainsHatch Nice one! I guess that shows how many of your audience are *proper* nerds! Thanks for reading my comment! (Dammit, I'm going to have to go looking for Easter Eggs now!)
To shorten the video Ordnance: “Y’all need bigger tank.” Army Ground Forces:”No.” Ordnance: “ We didn’t ask” AGF: “WTF this thing is too heavy and breaks down to much!?” Ordnance: “Yeah but it’s better than a lot of the German tanks so shut up” AGF: “Fuck.”
Well done Sir. I cringe at the parts that you describe the tanks being divided up. Every time I was attached to the Infantry it was a nightmare. In Division Cavalry there were comparatively no issues. But the infantry were always a lot of pain. One time I will never forget my Tank Company (B Trp 1-12 Cavalry but was really a Tank Company as everyone in 1st Cav falsely carries the name) was attached to an infantry battalion for an NTC rotation. I will not bore you with all the stories of how we were tactically miss used but, the last day when the HETS arrived to load us up the BN CDR and XO were standing there screaming like mad men, to get on the F-ing HETS and that once we were on them we were not their F-ing problem! They did not stop screaming and cursing us until all 14 tanks were loaded up. I could not believer their behavior and obvious hate of us from beginning to end of the rotation. It was as if we were the enemy and not fellow US Soldiers.
I would not call myself a Tanker but I was in an M109A2 Pally .... But I love armor and Chief keep these great videos coming. Maybe at some p[point you can talk about the M109 and it's history as it will do direct fire and is now being trained to do so more then it was in Desert Storm. After desert storm this was being trained funny you sight down the open bore but now the computer does it ... But it works in a pinch.
Hi Chieftain. Wondering if you consider doing some more vids on Cold War era tanks. Leo’s, chieftain, Soviets t62/72 etc. a vid on MBT70 would be awesome
Excellent presentation as always, sir. I was curious about the drivetrain issues Pershing had. Were the engine/transmission chosen as a matter of convenience/availability or did the designer simply underestimate the power requirement of such a heavy vehicle?
The issues were the result of not running the initial batch thru rigorous testing to find and correct any problems. Ordnance wanted to do that but was overruled by members of Congress who had been agitating for a heavy tank after the M4's first encountered the Tiger 1 in North Africa. Ordnance decided that some testing was required so took the first three produced and ran those non-stop around a track for 500 miles. Two made it and one lost a road wheel after traveling 300 miles. Ordnance declared that was normal wear and tear so declared that the T26 was good to go.
I read about the politics involving the production and fielding of the M26. From what I read General Jacob Devers (commander of the 7th Army) bypassed AGF (General Lesley McNair) and went directly to General Marshall. Marshall approved it but what I read McNair was still in opposition to it. Unfortunately, McNair was killed during an inspection tour in Normandy when U.S. troops were bombed accidentally by 8th Air Force bombers.
M26's can't have been sent to Amsterdam, as it was still occupied but still I find Chieftain's video's just great! Wonder what tank transporter could take those beasts, anybody knows?
Did the demand for more Pershing tanks ratchet up by the ground troops during the early phase of the Battle Of The Bulge as more German Tanks in quantity started breaking thru the Ardennnes Front and more Panther, Tiger, Tiger II, JagdPanther and Stug IV tanks started to arrive in quantities which might have cause some issues with the Sherman tanks whose medium 75mm cannons were having difficulties penetrating the newly arriving Panzers at range or that the German Panzers were themselves penetrating their own armor at longer range until combat range drop under a mile??
By late 44, 76mm Shermans had been filing in and even Easy 8s were reaching the frontlines, they had enough save for long distance head on engagements with Tiger II and Jagdpanthers. The problems of Panther had been realized and matched by stopgap measures and tactics when they swept central and southern France
ETO thought as much. On the M26, it would have been the only weapon capable of being fired when on the move, but I doubt ETO knew that at the time. Ordnance were as happy to delete it. Then again, note that some vehicles like M18 and M10 did not have a bow machinegun, but kept the crewman.
Does anyone know when the Ford GAC V-12 engine was installed in the T-29 super heavy tank prototype? I ask due to whether or not it was available for any T-26 prototype before the end of 1944. Did anyone developing the T-26 think, "33% heavier tank, I might need a 50% more powerful engine" during the development stage? On the same thought, when was the Allison cross-drive transmission developed? Could a quasi-M-46 tank been available at the end of WW2 or was R&D not ready yet?
Having read Spearhead, I have to question the other main engagement involving the Panther at the Airfield. It's an even more extraordinary story than the Cologne engagement. I understand that Clarence never spoke till recently,but why has nobody ever spoke of this before? I am a big Pershing fan, and don't doubt Clarence, I'm just curious. Any thoughts from those who have read the book?
Is it weird that I enjoy listening to an old tanker ramble on about arcane tank information? Sabres out! Sabres ready! Please consider doing a "developing the M1 Abrams" thanks chief.
The George S. Patton Memorial Museum claims that it has an M26 Pershing tank...but the tank the sign was in front of was an M60....so do you know of any M26 at the Patton museum?
McNair is often included among the list of controversial American commanders in WWII, such as Fredendall, Clark, and Lucas. Despite not being a combat commander, he was killed by friendly fire (aerial bombing) while observing the opening phase of Operation Cobra.
@@torbai The US Army in WWII was, conceptually, really two armies. The first one organized, trained, and equipped the forces at home, while the other one employed those forces in combat operations across the globe. In this sense, the combatant commanders (predominantly Eisenhower and MacArthur) were the customers who identified their requirements to McNair, who was their force provider. A key point to remember is that McNair was neither subordinate nor answerable to these combatant commanders. He worked for the Chief of Staff of the Army, George Marshall. As the Chieftain pointed out, the requirements of each commander varied. Had McNair worked for them, I doubt he could have gotten much done, so he needed a degree of independence. I know this is a gross oversimplification of what was really going on, but this forum limits a broader description. There is much to both admire and admonish about McNair. Nobody had ever been given such a monumental task as he received - turn a million man Army into an eight million man army, and train and equip it to fight an ever evolving modern war. He was a great organizer and excelled in this task. Those who criticize his armor decisions may be right, but I think they pale in comparison with what I consider to have been the Army's worst mistake - the individual replacement system (in lieu of whole unit replacements). McNair advocated this approach to deploying causality replacements, and he had Marshall's support. Far from ideal, it had the advantage of greatly limiting troop space requirements on supply ships. It also reduced the demands on Army recruitment, which made the captains of industry happy. But from a tip-of-the-spear viewpoint, it was a tragic fiasco. When criticizing the decisions of commanders, one must consider not just their successes and failures, but the reasons for the decisions that led to these successes and failures. We will never know for certain, but their shortcomings may have been the result of the best possible courses of action available at the time, abysmal as they may appear in hindsight.
Colonel K Well, I already know that... I am sorry that it must cost you a long time to write a long article but the only reader already knows what you said... My apologies.
@@torbai When I respond to anyone I assume others are reading these comments and may chime in. If not, I don't mind. A lot of the folks here are pretty knowledgeable, and any polite and intelligent discourse is always appreciated. It helps keep my mind sharp.
J Chiappe During world war Two My father worked as a draftman for Fisher body in Detroit as part of a 2,000 man engineering team to work on various military projects as a subcontractor. As a a project came up they would draw off the needed number of various types of engineers to work on the individual projects and go at it. One of these projects he worked on was the Pershing tank. He told me that the project was put on the back burners for a while because not only General McNair was not a big fan of the project but also Patten who was a pretty well known Tank expert. He felt at the time the 5 Shermans could do more damage then one Pershing. He also said there was also a problem in logistics of getting the Pershing on trains and then on ships going to Europe. they had problems fitting them on the flat bed train cars and aboard the ships and it was easier to send 2 Shermans to Europe then one Pershing. Pershing was still a good tank and would have really made a difference if they made it to the battle field in larger numbers.
There is an issue with that story. Patton had no influence with Ordinance Branch, in the Think Tank videos Zaloga talks about how he found a memo in the US archives which basically told Ordinance Branch to ignore Patton's input (one of his proposals was to add two driver operated machine guns, add a second coax machine gun, and something about a machine gun out the rear of the turret to the M4 Medium. all of which are rubbish suggestions). the rest of your story seems to line up with with Army documents.
Still think the US Armoured branch should’ve taken up the offer of the 17pdr and equiped at least a small number of M4s for use where heavy German cats were known to be stationed. I mean would one in every five M4s being a Firefly been a problem?
Cheiftain I gotta idea that might be a bit of a stretch, but if you ever got time, why not take a trip down to Ft, Benning Georgia and take a inside the hatch of the monster “super heavy tank t28”. That would be absolutely awesome.
In his last Q&A, he mentioned that he was putting off going down to Ft. Benning, because they had the T28 under restoration, and if he waited until they finished, he might be able to do a full outside & inside video on it.
Even though Clarence missed his photo opportunity for recognition that day because he was handing out candy to children he finally received the bronze star in person on Sept 18, 2019. Another mention of his good character is his ongoing remorse for the unintentional death of a civilian possibly from his actions that day (or the panther) that he wasn't even aware of until years after the war.
