SPOILERS Why did Forest create Devs and what was his plan? Why did Stewart kill Forest in the end? This video answers those two questions, which are more linked than they seem. These are just my thoughts and theories
There's a really interesting shot that a lot of people miss near the end of Ep 8. After Lily confronts Sergei about his phone and goes off in search of Devs, she stands on the wooden walkway. The camera cranes up into the tree branches as she walks along it _then cranes back down immediately,_ before Lily would have reached the end - yet she's disappeared.
Like the explanation but seems to omit an incredibly large plot point to DEVS and that's the core belief in Tran Lines - that is there is no choice, choice is an illusion (like the Matrix), every event, every choice in reality is predetermined. The point of DEVS was that if you collect enough data points of the now based on Tran Line theorem you can determine both the past and the future events exactly like a math equation. But as much as they tried - at first - to program DEVS to achieve this exacting equation to past events, it failed. It would fail because the core equation of pre-determination couldn't account for every data point needed so it was cloudy at best like static or noise, and for some reason it could not go pass the point of Lily's death. But when they altered the core equation to accept multiple possible outcomes defining a multi verse - BINGO - time for a bath in Champaign per Stewart LOL. But Forest still refused to accept multi-verse theorem. Because if the multiverse theorem proved true - 1) it meant that Forest's daughter's death was not predetermined in which the event was inevitable but rather that Forest had a choice and his choice resulted in his daughter's death, and 2) the simulation could not provide one exact replication of reality that could then be altered, but rather it would provide multiple simulations of possible realities - some good, some bad. The one we see at the end when Forest says to Lilly "we got lucky" meaning they got one of the good life simulations, but there were other not so good. Forest also said he left memory intact because he thought it would be cruel to the others without it - reference to their other versions in the other simulations where life is bad - because they have their memories though rather than just thinking life is hell, they have some piece of mind to know that their life is just a simulation. This is why Forest freaked out when Lily tossed the gun. It was a moment of Zen for Forest when his core belief in Tran Lines came tumbling down. And when his conscious was uploaded (or simulated) when speaking to Katie she asked him if he understands what this means - he said yes, and "F" it, he still wanted to be loaded in to simulation knowing now there would be multiple simulations, and not just one altered version of a happy ending. Stewart's role was the philosophy of humanity - art, literature, music, and above all religion. Those things science cannot account for but yet exist, but I'd have to save his role for another response. Already wrote a book here.
This. I feel that the idea in this video, that Forest's plan was to make a simulation all along is misguided. His plan was to essentially test and hopefully prove himself not guilty of his daughters death by showing there is no free will. That's why he also rejected the multiverse implementation. In the end he's shown this is not true and completes his character arc by coming to terms with his own guilt. He then decides that the least he could do to make this better for the unfortunate people involved is to run the simulation.
@@themapplesperiod Not entirely sure I follow: "...Forest's plan was to make a simulation all along is misguided. His plan was to essentially test and hopefully prove himself not guilty of his daughters death"...seemed to me the entire plan was not about him "testing" his belief (he already had concluded in his mind that there was no such thing as multi verse and it was a waste of effort) but rather his plan was to get back to a life with his daughter (in a simulation) without her death - i.e. the ending. At the earth shattering moment he discovered the "fatal flaw" that there are alternate outcomes (multiverse) he accepted his fate would be random and may or may not conclude as a per designed ending. But that the beauty of good written fiction - just like the multiverse there are multiple interpretations, who's to know which is right.
@@TheSoulofsin While that might be a valid interpretation, I got the feeling that Forest wasn't looking forward to some happy future for himself, and was instead living in the past and pushing this tech to absolve his guilt by proving time to be deterministic/disproving free will. In the scenes we see him use the machine, it doesn't seem like he's preparing it for a simulation but rather reliving the past and looking at his one 'real' daughter. Maybe I missed something though, been a while since I watched that last episode.
Brilliant! I found this series extremely disturbing! May I use a few moments of your clips, I'll give you full credit in the show notes. Peace and blessings🙏
One interesting question: if Forest goes back to before his wife and daughter died in the simulation, then why does he still create DEVS inside that simulation?
He actually doesn’t. At the end when Lilly is walking to speak to Forest they show us the empty field without the Dev concrete bunker building. He still owns/starts the Amaya company, but not the Devs division.
Devs was an experience. I really love a show when it presents a mood and tone that draws me in. Most of characters were so interesting. I was confused why people think the ending was happy. I think the ending was redeeming for the characters which is not particularly a state that makes one happy. Forest and Lily have the full knowledge of their world -they are omnipresent and omnipotent. Will they be satisfied being conscious in a gilded cage forever? 😘
I know what you mean, living in a world you know isnt really real, even if it feels real, and knowing that there is a "more real" world a level above, that you used to reside in, I think would cause humans to feel dissatisfied
According to Garland, Stewart can be seen sabotaging the 'elevator' in both the projection - where Lily kills Forest - as well as in reality - where Lily throws the gun out. So Stewart was responsible for their deaths no matter what.
The answer is that it doesn't matter - it's a complete simulation of their consciousness at one point in time. It is indistinguishable from the 'actual' one in the outside world.
@@themapplesperiod Surely it does matter though, as it's not a transfer of consciences it's a recreation/simulation of that. In which case he wasn't really "resurrected", it's the illusion of a resurrection in a simulation. The real ones are dead and their consciences doesn't exist anymore. For example, when they were alive and watching the re-creation of themselves in the simulation, they didn't experience both reality and the simulation concurrently.
@@acidtwin well, yeah, but a concept of consciousness is tricky in this sense. For analogy: how can you waking up in the morning be sure that you are the same you that was falling asleep earlier in this bed? You wouldn't know if your consciousness was not the same, you just automatically suppose it is the same according to your memories. And this is basically what happens with Lily and Forest.
@@acidtwin A little late but I think this show works on a paradox like the Ship of Thesus one. Instead of thinking it as simulation let's say it was them realistically cloning the world. The simulations happened after they predicted them, but at any given time it's a clone of the real world. Well as the paradox says, or if I were to put it simply, if you have cloned something exactly. Now which one is real? We as the viewer have an idea but the world in the show doesn't. That was the point of that scene where Steward shows the team 1 second future of them. In that scenario inside/outisde the screen is similar. If anything, the machine is 100% predicting what happens so in that scenario you can assume the real world could also be a simulation. The real world was the one in the past. The paradox concludes to everything. They didn't transfer their consciousness so they're not real, but what is consciousness? Katie transfers their memories to Devs, now inside Devs they are conscious. They feel they're real. They're arguably resurrected. Forrest indeed was a 'fake prophet' that Lily claimed, what he wanted never could work. Devs only works in multiverses. There's many open ended scenes & ideals thrown around in the show though which makes me think it's a Inception style ending. Nothing really explains why the machine can't show the future after a certain point, nothing explains the weird editing after Lily/Forest watch the future, in one scene lilly is shown standing alone in front of the screen.
The main problem with Forest's plan is that a simulation is NOT reality. It's a cool idea, but the entire DEVS (and Westworld season 3) concept rests on the notion that you can collect all data about all things. This is in itself impossible, so the simulations can't approach reality.
I thought this way at first too, but the room with the dead mouse, clock and other items helped me to understand how the simulation is a complete recreation of our world. If they could get complete data of a few objects in that world, then with extrapolation you can define complete data about all objects around it. So you don't need to collect all the data. You just need a starting point and extrapolate all the rest. Similar to the rolling pen example. If you can get all data at an instant of the pen in space and time then you can predict that it was pushed, what pushed it etc. You can also predict where it will roll to, when it will stop, what impact it will have on the particles on it's path etc. Sorry for being late to the party. Just watched this show recently.
I don't understand - why would he need to die to be input into the system? I thought all Katie did was take all of the data about Forest and Lily, and recreate them within each of the simulated realities within Devs (including the "hellish" realities that Forest described, in which they would benefit from knowing it's a simulation, hence the carried over knowledge that's a "burden" for those Forests/Lilys that are living in the "good" realities). Couldn't Katie have recreated them within Devs, as mirror copies of their current selves, while they were still alive? Real-world Forest could never actually be with Amaya, because he exists in this world, where she died. I never saw anything indicating consciousness could actually be transferred. Would love to hear your interpretation - as I'm hardly entrenched in my interpretation, because it's depressing haha.
Hey, I think you're right, there would be nothing stopping them inserting the memories without them dying. But then like you say, real-life Forest would still be in the real world, watching a different version of himself be with Amaya, which I suppose doesn't really solve his desires. There'd be two versions of him with his memories up to that point, one with Amaya and one without, so in order for there to be only one version, he must die. I agree that consciousness isn't transferred, just memories. Forest is effectively transferred into the simulation, where there is already a conscious version of himself, simply by transferring his memories from the real world. Like when Lily "wakes up" in episode 8 after being reinserted. To other people she hasnt changed, but she feels like she's the "real life" version of herself only because she has those memories. It gets pretty weird!
It’s basically the fact that they had a life outside the simulation and were inserted in a different reality within it, that gives them the consciousness of having been transferred into the simulation. So, yes even though Katie could make another copy of Forrest within the simulation, it wouldn’t be the same consciousness. And by consciousness I mean the experiences of creating Amaya and having your daughter die couldn’t exist in the simulation. The only reason Forrest and lily recognize they are the ones in the simulation is because of their memories of having been outside it. Yeah... it honestly gets pretty weird. Because they are still “dead” in the real world. Their consciousness didn’t have to be transferred, as that concept starts to lose meaning once they are in the simulation. It’s very trippy.
It's making more sense the longer I think about it. I also read articles on quantum physics and probabilities. That wasn't the only reality. There were others, he and Lily allude to it. But for this one to exist all the others had to exist, and couldn't be distilled into just the one where his daughter died. At first I thought the ending was kind of hokey. And now I realize the whole thing is flipping brilliant.
Francesca S Yup. It’s one of those endings where the more you think about it, the more you realize how deep it goes. They basically reinvented the universe with 2 gods(or Adam and Eve).
Why could they not see past a certain point after Lily dies? Because she made a choice contradicting the simulated future? Didn’t that future show that they died due to the bullet breaking their vacuum or did it know ol dude was the one who made it fall?
Great question, it's been a while since I've wrapped my head around DEVS so may not be able to remember everything! From memory i think it was because what DEVS shows is dependent on who looks into it, because it has to show them something that they will do despite having seen themself do it. But what happened with Forest and Lily is that DEVS showed Forest a prediction, and then at a later stage showed Lily the same prediction (i.e. after she asked "show me exactly what you saw"). So then the machine cant show anything with certainty, because Lily and Forest want different things, so it cant show them both something that they will both act out despite having seen themselves acting it out. Hence it goes blurry shortly after Lily watches Forest's prediction. Hope that makes some sort of sense! And just my opinion, it gets very complicated and it could be because of something else!
What if Amaya dies in a car accident 2 weeks later. It was also very curious that he never fixated on bringing his wife back. Yeah, sure he was banging Katie...But what does that say about his marriage? Nothing great.
@@francescaa8331 It was absurd to the point that at first I thought Katie was some replica of his wife and he was working on his daughter next. But once I learned Katie was just a smart hot College chick, I was like, why they hell did this guy not give a single shit about the death of his wife and was solely obsessed with his daughter? That is a really big gap in the story that they never explained.
@@TangoNevada In many ways I liked the story, but that is a yawning gap. Also, the few times we see him interact with his wife, looks like he gets along with her... making it more odd. I still liked it for other reasons.
@@francescaa8331 Me too. I thought it was a great show. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed it, But the omission of his Wife in the DEVS project suggests either he blamed her for the death of his daughter, didn't really love her or it was a serious writing oversight. Either way, it was a fun journey.
This show made no sense all they made was a computer that could tell the future and past it wasn't reality just a simulator Predicting the multiple outcomes of the past and future. Oh and if you die in the elevator your uploaded into the system.
The point is that if you simulate reality down to the base level the simulation is its own reality. If every single atom is simulated perfectly and every interaction is perfect than the people in the simulation would be no less conscious and real than you are. It's playing off the thought experiment that we could already be a simulation ourselves and we would literally have no way of telling. Specific plot points don't always make sense in the show but the ideas do.
