Diarmaid MacCulloch on Thomas Cromwell, Henry VIII and the reformation 

Very interesting, thank you. Love Dermaid McCullough

A fascinating chat about an equally fascinating book. McCullough and Mantel make Cromwell (Crumel) into a much more nuanced person than many books and films make him to be. I was raised on the “Cromwell was totally evil and Sir Thomas More was a saint.” view. “A Man for All Seasons” was really big where I grew up. Imagine my shock when I read “Wolf Hall” and McCullough’s biography and learned differently!

I’ve lost count of how many times I’ve listened to this. I’ve listened to the audiobook of McCulloch’s biography of Cromwell and it is, as you would expect, very in-depth, very well researched. The fascinating thing to me is that he doesn’t just reveal Cromwell the statesman, he reveals Cromwell the man. I love the idea of Cromwell holding great parties and being popular with ladies of a certain age! The fascinating thing for me is how much the Cromwell of McCulloch’s biography and the Cromwell of Mantel’s wonderful Wolf Hall trilogy match up, not in every sense, but in certain significant ways. The only thing I would have asked McCulloch about if I interviewed him is how much his wife and daughters deaths might have prompted what definitely appears to have been a wobble in his reformist beliefs around the time of Wolsey’s fall. Cromwell’s wife died, Wolsey fell, Cromwell’s daughters and Wolsey died in a relatively short space of time. That would surely be enough to make anyone question if they were on the right path and, perhaps, make them turn to the faith they knew, which would have been Roman Catholicism. It’s obvious Cromwell found his way through all that, but the idea of those major events triggering a crisis of faith makes sense to me. The thing that really comes over with McCulloch is that he genuinely likes Cromwell. His enthusiasm for his subject takes you with him. Like Mantel, McCulloch avoids the ‘thug in a doublet’ caricature so many people go for when they speak of Cromwell, and brings out a fascinating, well-rounded character, a human being who was flawed and played a significant part in some cruel acts, but was also a man who was genuinely interested in the poor, was very intelligent, probably more intelligent than many of the nobility, someone who was cosmopolitan, had seen the world and travelled. I think that brings Cromwell the man to life. As for the spelling, I totally agree with McCulloch. There was no standardisation of spelling in Cromwell’s time. People wrote words, including names, how they heard them. Even things like accents could impact on spelling. McCulloch’s example from the Pilgrimage of Grace of ‘we’ll crumb him and crumb him….’ just doesn’t make sense if his name was clearly ‘CROMwell’. Also, in another interview McCulloch gives an example of Henry VIII writing in his own hand and referring to Cromwell as ‘Crumell’. That must have been how he heard the name.

This was a really fascinating character analysis of a complex historical figure!

There was no one like Cromwell!

It was fascinating to me that Cromwell was allied with Lady Mary and an enemy of Anne Boleyn. I thought it was the other way around. Great video!

Fascinating. I have his biography of Cranmer - not finished otherwise - I would have known he nearly came to a sticky end long before Mary! That Irish connection: truth is often stranger than fiction.

Excellent

Thanks that was great!

So Interesting - I wanted it to be much longer.

had the book on audio,. its really well done. I am very interested in Thomas Cromwell and I think his portrayal by Mark Rylance in Wolf Hall was the best one yet. I am hoping to see a final series next year.

MacCulloch and Mantel admired one another, stated by each in separate venues.

I really enjoyed this interview, is it just a one off? David Coast mentioned a podcast at the beginning, but I couldn't find that anywhere. Is there any more of your interviews / work about? Thanks!

Spelling, even of surnames, was not fixed in those days. William Shakespeare signed his name several different ways. Spelling does not necessarily determine pronunciation.

Needs more brightness

I would love to have heard MacCulloch give his opinion on the Wolf Hall trilogy. I wonder if the popular interest in Cromwell sparked off his interest at all?

Does Prof McCulloch's historical expertise extend into any other area apart from Cromwell....? Seems more like an obsession..??

So was he really related?

With all due respect for the very intelligent Prof. Diarmaid MacCulloch on the issue of politics being very personal. Yes, I think politics can be very personal but the modern elected representative politic system, the right to have your own political opinion, multi-party political system where there are rules that determine who is elected and what powers they possess is far more stable than the absolute power of Monarchy. When you have absolute power then any goes because the winners take all. Killing people even close associates is the quick and absolute solution to any problem. You see the purges and assassinations in 20th century Communist states with absolute power leadership. Stalin taking out old political allies (even in a single-party state) with show-trials, purges, gulags, and assassinations/executions. Or Mao Zedong taking out his old political supporters who he himself appointed into high positions because disagreements on government policy. When Mao's Great Leap Forward and Collectivization programs failed leading to the starvation of farming communities. A few of his political appointees within the Communist Party suggested changing his programs. Mao turned on his old supporters and accused them of being counter-revolutionaries. He ordered that they be purged and many were killed. Deng Xiao-ping was lucky and only received several years of house arrest. Mao used his Cultural Revolution to destroy any opposition to his misguided and totally effectual programs, and his refusal to admit failure led to the famine that killed 30-40 million peasant farmers over several years. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. The type of political system that you have makes you far more susceptible to barbarism.

MacCulloch doesn’t understand Catholicism because he’d know that Cromwell’s prayers to Our Lady are because she will intervene to Her Son on behalf of the sinner when Jesus himself may condemn them. It’s a genuine sign of Cromwell’s fear of eternal damnation and has absolutely nothing to do with “mother”. Love from Australia 🇦🇺