I'm hybrid but about 95% of that is ITB lol. The other 5% is my mixbus chain and printing vocal stems thru my vocal chain if I know they tracked their own vocals with an interface.
Absolutely! I’ve Been Mixing Here In Atlanta For 30 Years! Came Up On SSL, Neve & Trident But My Friend Glen Schick Moving Completely In The Voice Inspired Me To Go For It Although I Have Tons Of Vintage Outboard Gear From Over The Years From API, Dbx, Focusrite, Bae, Drawmer, and Manley. But Because I’ve Used The Actual Hardware And Understand What It Should SoundLike And How It Should Be Used. I Get Great Results Now Totally ITB. Thanks For The Discussion 👌 Spent My Available Cash On Speakers And Amazing Conversion
I've been working in the music industry for 25+ years. I mix full time. Between 150 - 200 projects a year. I'm a freelancer so I'm mostly working with people who are recording at home so the tracks I get to work with are usually less than ideal. I do have a few pieces of hardware but I'm working %75 ITB and I get KILLER mixes time and time again. I know this to be true because I have a proven track record and my clients return time and time again. I also compare my work to the stuff on the charts all the time. Yes, there is a difference but I'm almost positive the difference is more from the tracks I am being provided to work with than from my skillset or tools. Getting it right at the source is BY FAR the most important thing. The tools will only take you so far and it doesn't matter if they are digital or analog at that point. That's what I've learned over all these years.
@@EdThorne For sure. Getting it right at the source is by far the most important part of a good mix. Even tho it really has nothing to do with mixing. I use the same plugins and hardware for almost every mix I work on. So I'm consistently using the same stuff to do the work. So if it was the gear that mattered, in theory, every mix should sound pretty much just as good as the last one. We all know that's not how it works tho lol. The quality of the performances matters quite a bit too. If you have good recordings performed by people who can actually play/sing well then you are off to the best start you can be. Those two things are the most important. After that, it's knowing what to do with the tracks when you get them. If I had to put a number on it, in my experience anyway, the tools you use to get the job done account for about 30% of the whole picture. I've mixed everywhere from world-famous control rooms to the train lol. I've done mixes that were 100% analog and 100% digital. I rarely find myself saying, "man if I only had (insert plugin/hardware name here) that would be all I need to knock this mix out of the park". I often find myself saying, "if these guitars were recorded better the whole mix would sound so much better"! Anyway, I'm rambling. Thanks for listening hahaha!
@@RealHomeRecording Hey Adam! While I do post on gear space every now and again, unfortunately I'm pretty confident I'm not the Matt you speak of lol. I'm not very active there usually. Sorry to disappoint haha!!
@@matt_nyc_audioengineer Yes it's true for mixes. The only thing that sounded true (one pro was saying...) was that in "mastering stage" (where you want that extra 5% of magic) working with some extra analog gear is much more forgiving if you make any small mistake where with digital you have to do everything almost perfect for top result. I don't even mix in computer (everything on a outside high end keyboard workstation) and I've reached progress using the same stuff over and over and I found quickly is better to work with the same tools for years getting best with it than constantly changing the plug'ins and making a big mess everytime ... :)) I use only some transformers at mastering stage and a high end preamp makes sence when recording vocals which again conforms your point that the recordings must be top notch and you are already 90% there - if you know how to mix reasonably well of course. Years ago I thought: I have a bad gear, I should work with computer, than 5 years later my mixes are 100 times better with the same tools, so it's not so much gear as knowledge and expirence. The tehnology nowdays (ITB mixing) is good enough so you can make great mixes. 20 years ago was a different story, but not today. As I said, maybe in mastering stage makes sence to add some analog stuff in the chain ...:)
The old debate hardware v digital…All the famous top end ITB mixers like Andrew Scheps receive their audio that’s been tracked through analogue….Ed mentioned this….this kills the debate. By all means use a EQ plugin to tweak a vocal tracked with a U87 and Neve preamp 1176-LA2A hardware chain….but don’t think for one minute a plugin chain will beat a quality hardware front end.
The big things for me are ergonomics, the experience, and inspiration. Being able to turn a knob vs use my mouse is significant in all 3 places. It's significantly less wear and tear on my arm (I've had 3 surgeries), it feels tangible which tends to allow me to really feel the music more intimately, and of course because of that I'm inspired to work and have fun doing so!
Great video, well said! I have a hybrid setup. Doing my own shootouts analog hardware is better than plugins, but the difference is very subtle and slight. and if you record with analog gear it's practically non-existent. what matters is getting the harmonic saturation and natural warmth at some point in the signal chain. If you get it during the recording stage you won't need it later on. The issue now is that most people aren't mixing with hardware they're using on board preamps in a low end interface (looking at you focusrite 2i2) and giving it to you to mix. so putting it through hardware will make it a lot faster to mix - notice i didn't say BETTER - as your skill, room, ears, taste will always take you so far and if you have goals/vision that doesn't align with the client well then it's a bad mix. the analog gear i got is a bus compressor, distressor, api preamps (probably gonna sell), and a BAE (neve) 1028 pre/eq. Essentially I got a great signal chain to record vocals and acoustic guitar at the highest quality. granted my current space isn't a place to record any of those things well (i got all of that in my old place which was great for this stuff). In any case I think having a GREAT vocal chain these days is everything. get a top notch preamp and compressor combo (i highly recommend what i got rn) and don't skimp by buying warm audio it's not nearly as good, if you wanna save some cash get stam audio or a bunch of other brands that are slightly more money but much better quality (i've also heard a bit about quality control issues with warm). So did you (or me) waste the money? Depends on your client base and how much you value your time (assuming you save a LOT of time with analog gear). here's the important thing too: if you don't like what you have, you can easily sell it for most of your money back, and in some cases i've actually earned a few dollars upon resell. it is VERY difficult to sell plugins these days. and in some cases nearly impossible to transfer licenses. plus analog hardware rarely becomes obsolete where as plugins can sound inferior after a few years. if you have the work or spare cash and record more than mix, it may be better to buy hardware. if you are only mixing, i don't think it matters much: whichever way works best for your workflow.
Forget about "which sounds better," I ask myself "which is more enjoyable and whats the value of enjoying what I do"? Theres my equation. Hybrid setup here
After mixing ITB for about 6 years, I've been looking into analog gears. That's how I found your channel, Ed. I've been using emulation plugins for years and recently. I started tracking vocals through an ITB chain (0 latency plugins), mostly with Neve1073 style Pre & EQ, then an 1176 and LA2A. My goal is to familiarize myself with the committed settings on the way in. At first, I was making a big mess most of the time but I believe I got better after a couple of months. And I guess I'll be making some mistakes when I actually use analog units but it's quite necessary imo. Trial and error, of course.
Sounds like you’re in the Apollo world of DSP processing on the way in! It’s great! Goes a long way to improving raw audio for sure! Analog is a whole other beast of gain staging. I had to completely re-learn the concept for the different format. Still tweaking it for consistency.
I had the very same thought sitting a few rows behind you. When JJ’s achieving mixes like that 100% ITB then i concluded 1/2 way through the seminar I did need to spend what I have in past year on analog gear. And I was VERY glad my wife was not in the audience lol. Commercially for mixers, it does not make sense. Maybe for producers and much more for recording engineers it makes more sense. Am I gutted I spent 5x that on outboard? Not at all. I knew going in that ITB was much more efficient both practically and commercially. BUT. For experimental and educational purposes I don’t regret a penny. In fact once I buy protools and figure out the rest of JJ’s chain i’ll fill in the gaps. I already have 80% of the analog equip of his chain. And SHMC been ordered since. But my needs are different from startup/small scale mixers or large commercial mastering factories. I only have one client and I’m not on the clock. So in conclusion if I had the aim of setting up a small mix suite then I would say 25k mostly on 500s would be a waste if money. Interface, high end channel strip and rest on speakers and room correction i think would be better. But you’re 100% and the biggest takeaway from that seminar. Whatever tools are used. It is the skill of the mixer that matters. What plugin or hardware used will have little bearing on the mix if the skill is not there. So investing in those skills and the tile to learn is next stage for me. In meantime just hire in the talent. Thanks for the two vids on the seminar. Great work!
I think gear does not really matter in the mixing realm , i always mix in the box so i can make surgical mixng decisions . To me, the room + monitors (reference) & skill are more important than the type of EQ or Compressor i use
I moved to hybrid this year. I too think it gives more depth and frankly easier for me to get the sound I’m looking for more quickly. I also learned doing FOH on analog consoles so to me it is more natural to turn physical knobs. Could I achieve great mixes ITB? Sure. Is the difference worth the money I spent? Maybe. Do I enjoy the process and the creation more, 100% yes -and since my studio is more about having fun, helping people then I think my investment was worth it.
I think analog, as you seem to agree, is more important for tracking than it is for mixing. So unless you're tracking -- which it doesn't seem like you are -- than I would think that you could sell your analog gear and invest in a high yield savings account so you can actually get a return on that investment😂
I am tracking in the studio. I’m also forward planning (and purchasing) for my career goal studio when I buy a house. So most of it I’ll keep for those plans. 🤘
I have a hybrid setup similar to you: lots of stereo racks, some 500 units separately and one or two mono pieces. My purpose for analog is simply for character. All my corrective stuff is ITB. But it’s perfectly okay for experimentation with gear to provide sources of inspiration to us in the moment just as much as it is to sound good. Whatever helps us stay connected to the process and on our journey is what’s important. Ultimately, so long as you are finishing music in whatever fashion you aspire; writing, mixing, mastering… that’s what is important. How you get there is not. Consistent releases/product is more important in this generation than the the quality of music was previously. Peoples tastes are s***! The vast majority of people are less invested in music and artistry, peoples attentions spans are shorter and so interest to any discipline is watered down. Music is served to our fingers before it is our ears so long gone are the generations of talents like Stevie Wonder etc. The saying is hard work beats talent until talent beats hard work has never been truer. Ultimately, you could use talent as a metaphor for analog gear - it only benefits your music if you are achieving consistency. Otherwise, what’s it got to add value to besides your electricity bill! If analog gear helps keep you interested in your journey, that for the most part is worth the investment.
what analog is good for, saturating the bass with sine waves instead of distorting with square waves in digital. Dre would slam the kicks and bass in a tape and would come out perfect.
As a hobbyist, I’m surprised no comments about pedals for reamping or as effects, some are unique. Other than that I can only justify outboard compressors and tape saturation when I want to hit them hard. (Plug-ins usually have more limited sweet spots) .
Absolutely. Analog feels good and plugins pick up the slack where analog can’t help me (dynamic EQ, multi-band comp, side chaining etc). Best of both wins for me
I used hybrid for tracking. My compressors and preamps are hardware inserts that I can change on the fly inside the software. The only other use is reamping my drums to get them bigger sounding. Besides that hybrid mixing and all that recall is a nightmare!
It seems that the biggest problem is going back to old work. What was the compressor and EQ set at for the bass? Where was the panning done, where were the levels? This seems to be the biggest problem. Analog does sound better and you just reach for a knob and get what you want, digital is a nightmare because of all the "tricks" needed to know for setting up the OS, the DAW, the plug-ins, etc, but with digital things won't change when you go back to the tracks 2 months later and automation is built in. Using detailed cue sheets with analog is time consuming but that's what is needed. Still automation is what's needed. Digital is only good when it's 24 bit, 96khz.
I've been through analog gear, summing mixers, compressors, SSL Fusion & BusPlus etc. I've settled in high end digitally recallable mastering analog gear. I mix into the chain and bypass the limiter. It's by far the best solution I've come up with. You have to know what your'e doing but you can get to hear what the finished track sounds like. Then you print itb. Then send it back through the chain plus a few plugins and limiter on. Finished track. Sorted.
A porsche is much faster and and fun to drive than a Honda. But if you are delivering the world's best pizza with either, it will taste just as good when it gets there. What is necessary to get the job done?
After years of mixing through an expensive hybrid setup I recently challenged myself to take finished hybrid mixes and and put them back in the box to see how close I could match them. To my shock and dismay I started to notice that not only could I match my hybrid mixes but I was actually liking the ITB versions more. The hybrid mixes just sounded like they were pushing and smearing up against an invisible ceiling whereas the ITB mixes just felt open and effortless. Now I have to figure out what to do with all my gear 😢
Interesting. For sure there's some plugins that create space and openness, the UAD PulTec for example, so I use it for space. The low end on my IGS RBEQ sounds much better though so I use both. Result!
I went through the same process. When I converted my studio to Atmos I went full digital because I sold all my analog gear to fund the conversion. And I my surprise, my mixes were instantly better. By comparison my hybrid mixes were mushy for a lack of a better term. The digital mixes were so much clearer and open and punchy. Not sure when plugins and daws surpassed analog but they definitely have 🤔
@OfficialEllis tell that to Serban Ghenea 🤣 Also: Andrew Scheps, Tchad Blake, Michael Brauer, Dave Pensado, Phil Tan, etc. I'm sure you've heard of these guys and their amazing in the box mixes. Maybe you need to justify the money you wasted on analog equipment. There's nothing wrong with spending money on something you enjoy just realise that it's not needed, just wanted, there is a difference.
I'm a believer in having tools you may never need, until that day you need them. So no you haven't wasted your money. My first piece of analog gear was a Art Pro VLAII compressor. Having it at my fingers helped me to get to understand how compression works. I'm a believer everything sounds better through analog outboard gear. I'm like you using a hybrid set up. There are certain plugins I can't live without like the MV2. So in conclusion for me, No you didn't waste your money, you just use a different set of tools. Awesome set up Ed, love the idea with 500 series equipment especially that patchbay. I hope to expand my beer budget studio set up one day soon. Keep the videos coming.
I cut my teeth with tape and console mixing and was eager to ditch it all when digital arrived... the next 10 years I was all digital and just could not get the "X factor" I got with analogue. Hybrid is the way to go... especially when units like Tegeler's Magnetismus 2 exist!
Hey Ed. First: super interesting Video. So thanks for this. I would love to have some outboard gear for tracking. Since 3 years i am working with the Apollo X4 and its good. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to make a comparison with real preamplifiers so far. but I could imagine that there are certain advantages. Thanks and greetz. Carsten ✌🏼
Watch this space for a Neve preamp comparison. Thanks for supporting the channel. Can’t go wrong with the X4, you can make some killer vocal input chains
As a singer,songwriter,and a producer,- besides this,- i am a photographer either. I still hear the talks,that the film-cameras are better,than digital ones. Other people say : No! Digital cameras clearly winns! Here is the parallel between music mixing and photography: there is no magic button on none of cameras,or studio hardware. The same with postproduction: none of the software or plugin has button,called " MASTERPIECE". But every picture and every music mix has to be captured with the eye and ear, -with deep meaning, deep emotions and feelings. Today, in this wonderfull era of digital world of analog gear emulations,married with experience, -makes everything possible! And on the other hand many musicians/songwriters are sooo much concentrated on the " analog or digital" instead just to concentrate on creation process. If i see beautiful sunset,- i dont lose my time,regrettig about the fact,that my Profi-Camera with super - duper Lens is not in my pocket,no! - I just take my phone and catch this beautiful moment! If i have the great idea for new song,but my studio gear is out of reach, - i dont care - i just take my laptop,USB MIC and just write my new song.Our attention is lost somewhere between "digital and analog". I will say,that 100% of my songs and music i am making ITB. Some of them sounds good,some - could sound better,but the main idea is there! And when the other musucians asks me : is this real or sampled guitar ? Are these drums real ? And if i see that even very professional musicians dont hear this difference,dont even believe,that everything was mixed and mastered completely ITB,- this sounds not like the compliment only,but lets me understand ,that if you know the tools,that you are wokring with - is it hardware,or is it software - but you know exactly,what you do ,and how to reach the final result,using these tools - this is the key!
The main question you should ask yourself is "Am I pleased with my work flow and why do I even work as a mixing engineer"? I am sure it is not only to get the most number of streams. It must be because you have fun doing it and love mixing. There only rule is that there are no rules - everbody works differently each in their own way and the most important is the result and sonic experience. So if you are happy with your setup and the results are great you have wasted 0 $.
You may have over bought some things as we have done, however the difference with these so called pro mixers and what they do not often tell you is they are mixing already world class stems that have already gone through high-end gear with pristine precision that cannot be achieved on a Rhode mic and focusrite Scarlett out of someone's bedroom. A mixer in that situation is already working with house money, so of course they can stay ITB, but remember the tracks did not start that way. Many of these mixers do not explain the full story, because often they are sponsored by the plugin companies and their job is to sell you more product, get you hooked and then eventually go subscription. These mixers did not learn their skills on plugins, but actual hardware as they both behave differently. With analog/hybrid you will always own it, learn it and become better overall as it's limitations is what creates mastery as a bunch of options often leads to stagnation. It takes me longer to mix with pure plugins than with analog. Also since I have mixed professionally recorded tracks, the process is even quicker, because aside from maybe tone shaping and leveling, it is over 80% there. Now again did you overspend??? Yeeeeeaaa 😅😂 but hey as long as you had/have fun then what the hell because you cannot take a dime of it with you once this ride is over.
@@EdThorne aye many thanks mate I appreciate it. I'm right there with you when I look at my accounts for buying gear lololol. But like you said we love it. Keep up the good work and I really enjoy the channel. 👍
I see tons of videos about mixing in the box, but I can't find much about RECORDING in the box. Does it make a difference if my vocal chain is analog gear or plug-ins? I must test this.
Jaja bro that’s so cool of you, trying to be honest with yourself despite the truth might hurt! But I don’t think this is a matter of “I listened to a better mix than mine made in the box so I probably wasted my money in my analogue gear cuz my mixes do not sound as good” I think as you said is a matter of skill and experience so In my opinion the answer should be:how do I use the gear I have to sound like that? That’s it. At the end of the day (and this is a truth that hurts too jaja) nobody fucking cares if you used Telefunken mics through a Neve analogue console when they are dancing in the club or whatever, they care about how the music moves them emotionally, if we can achieve that as mixers, who cares if we did it in our laptops using native plugins or in a $100k studio!! The only ones who care and suffer are us judging shit that most of the people don’t pay attention to and those are the ones who pay jajaja To me is finding a balance of spending money and time wisely in what really matters!
:20 “Jaclyn Joshua mixes 100% in the box and has billions of streams” So does Jack Antonoff and he works almost exclusively analog. Different strokes for different folks. What works for you works for you and that’s all that should matter IMO
@@EdThorne Jack Antonoff. Look him up. He’s one of the hottest producers in pop right now. He also has some mix with the masters sessions I’d highly recommend. Love the channel, keep up the amazing work!
Doing production completely in da box or analogue/hybrid highly depends on whether you are recording, or just mixing/mastering. IMHO, no need for expensive outboard equipment if you're not recording (tracking) vocals or instruments. But is it waste of money, if one has analog equipment? Hella no, it sounds great, those small unpredictable variations digital in-the-box equipment simply cannot reporoduce. And human ears yearn for that kind of sound, that is NOT so perfect and digital, hence - you can see revival of vinyl and cassette tapes.
@@EdThorne Ed thank you for your quick reply. I am trying to make a purchase of pair of these and want to make sure I make the best decision. I appreciate your time.
I don’t think you wasted the money. Last weekend I went to the gearfest and listen through the audient mixer and I wish I could take it home😢. But with saying that, the stems might have been more likely done through analog gear and in a great studio, But when you use plugins as instruments and Loopmasters like me. There is a bit of je ne sais quoi going on 😏 n’atamean . And that’s why I bough a Korg hybrid mixer a few weeks ago😅. I had already owned a few 19u pieces so now I’m waiting on a friend to help me put the shizzle together. 🙏🏾. To get The sound of analogue requires too many bloody plugins.over 10 years I’ve acquired enough waves plugins to fill a small 6x6 bnq shed and I still not entirely satisfied with my mixes. I wish someone would surprise me one day . I’ll provide the stems 😊. Who knows maybe I’m not fully skilled enough to get the results😂
For those of us that take this seriously, and it sound like to you do, we’re all constantly learning and evolving our process. No-one piece of gear will salvage our mixes but learning as many tools and tricks of the trade as possible will definitely help
Analog gear, by itself, can't do anything to help or hurt a mix. My question is: Are you doing anything with the gear to make your mixes sound better than before?
Good question. I need to consider this one for a full answer. In short though, some pieces offer different characteristics that I like and it really focussed me on using my ears and not watching displays which I think has been good training.
@@EdThorne I have a lot of analog gear which I own for logistical purposes when recording large groups, bands, and artists. The gear I own is directly related to how I work and how I sculpt my sound sources on the way in during tracking. For instance, I can get a musician to play a certain way depending on how I setup the gear. If a drummer is timid because his drums sound overly loud, transient heavy in his headphones, I can force him to dig in by gain staging with the preamp-high passing-and compressing his monitor mix without any latency issues. If a drummer is hitting the drums like cannons, I can sculpt a sound to feed back into his headphones that forces him to settle the F down and play with dynamics in mind. Once I've encouraged a musician to play a certain way, I can then worry about how I'm going to sculpt and capture the audio for the real keeper take, again in real time with no latency issues. (Nowhere in there did I mention that the gear, on it's own, sounds better.)
Personally, I’d say plug-ins are as good as they’re going to get and I still think there’s a difference. But it’s marginal, and not worth it for everyone.
I am fully in the box. Yes i do feel the pressure to get analogue gear for tracking. As for mixing, its daft using analogue. Its too slow and cumbersome for me. I couldnt be fagged chasing knobs and buttons all around me. hey thats the beauty of digital, its at your finger tips. I figure if you want "flavour", get it at the source. But even here, i quite enjoy the raw tracked files. It gives me a live vibe and non of the over produced junk everyone else does. BUT, i am not in the same market as top producers or engineers. I roll my own and feel quite happy staying in my space. If you want to roll with the big boys, i guess the pressure is intense, lol. An arms race?
Interesting. I just don’t see it as the immediate future. It’s a bit like crypto - genius idea but there’s a lot of technical evolutions that need to take place for it to filter down to the average consumer.
@@EdThorne I agree it has not been widely consumed yet as a music media. But if the Streaming site rumors are true you will not be able to submit soon to Apple Music or Spotify unless there is a Dolby Atmos version. As well you can command a better price point for mixing customers or secure more business.
It doesn’t matter, cause the listener does not caaaare ❤, a mouse feels great… The computer mouse is perfect, could it be? Maybe it’s our materialistic ideas that keep us from making music
Did you waste money? Yes! But only because you bought too many processors. You can get great mixes and use some analog tools that bring your mix to the final top. Maybe a good comp, eq and stereo tool or a box like the Neve MBT for the mixbus is the best of both worlds imo. And remember - JJ mixes itb but his mixes see some analog gear from the mastering engineer.
there is two capsules, tubes and an external power supply on an 800g, thing is a piece of analog gear on it's own. Even if you track with unison, that thing alone gives an analog sound off the jump, many engineers say they have to tame the top end etc..if we check the frequency response on it, it behaves almost like an eq
Great video and thanks for sharing your experience! A few things...Maybe not base a decision on 1 other person's experience, there are a lot of factors that differentiate him from the way you work. And to your point, how was the audio recorded/tracked that he's mixing? I'm assuming it was recorded via analog gear? As for the signal chain, I think it comes down to your goals. I have an acoustic drum kit and I get better results with analog pre-amps in a 500 series lunch box vs an audio interface. I prefer standard parametric EQ's so I do that ITB, but I do like and have analog (1176, Opto) compressors. And it really does come down to skill and the way you like to work, turning physical knobs feels better then moving my mouse. Lastly, especially with 500 series gear, you can try and if it does not work out, replace with something else. On the down side it can be like learning to play golf, every $1000 dollars improves you by .01% :), for example, I have the Shadow Hills Compressor plugin, but I'd love to get the $2500 analog version, is the difference (that I can hear) worth the extra $2475 cost? Hell no, but...
@@EdThorne I have... 3 mics - (Glyn Johns layout) Beta52 on KD // C314 overhead // SM57 (near floor tom, facing SD) going into 3 pre-amps (camden 500 2x, SSL SiX CH) in a RND R6 lunch box audio interface into Logic, with EQ plugins and outboard I/O into analog 1176 for drum bus
When I moved from outboard gear (including an analogue desk) to ITB, it took me a long time to get the same quality of results I previously achieved. This, like most things, was down to skill, knowledge of my gear and not the gear itself. A monkey with a mouse is not an audio engineer with decades of experience.
100% agree here. If your tracks have mojo in the first place you can mix from there in the box after the fact. I also believe in the tracking phase to create a vibe and I do the "live and die" by it method (at least 80% of the time) and have it all baked in (modulation, effects, good and bad noises, etc).
that is my exact game plan. since i have u gathered here may i ask, what nice slow compressor would you guys recommend for vocals ? in a dual comp setup where i already have a quick vca one ( max 8ms on attack) trying not to break the bank with a cl1b :s and also how hard u guys go on A/D converters ?? im on a adi-2 which became the weakest link in my chain but i have no reference point to know how much better it could get
@@LordBiffMusic For my 500 series rack I love my Hairball FET/500 Revision D for vocals. For my AD/DA I am using a Cranborne 500ADAT chassis so it takes care of that and then some. For an Opto type compressor I can't recommend the Audio-Scape Opto Compressor enough especially for the price you pay. Love their gear! I also have a Revive-Audio modded ART VLA II (I went with the Cinemag add on) that was very affordable and is excellent after the mod. If you are willing to make a switch and have an interface with 500 series the Cranborne 500R8 might be worth a look as it it does a lot and has A/D and Adat and summing built in. If i did things over I would of gone with that as my do it all piece.
No, you didn't "waste" your money. If a hybrid workflow is how you like to work then embrace it and move forward. I hear a lot of "this person mixes hit records and only uses, blah, blah, blah",....Andrew Scheps mixes on $100 headphones,....this big time mixer does this, etc, etc. As you said, if you get impeccably record raw tracks you're more than halfway there. It's one of the differences between truly pro and not.
Analogue is awesome! However, for simplicity, space and $ sake, I've been recording completely in the box with my Apollo for half a decade and never looked back. Awesome video and content as usual Ed, thanks for all you've done for our audio community!
I spent 30k on a analog hybrid set up. Spent 50k moving to Nashville to go to Blackbird because it's a gear addicts dream. After all that, I sold all of it because the gear is not the problem. If we could buy great recordings with gear everyone would. You still have to play your instruments and write great music which is hard. It's more important to learn proper recording and mixing techniques, but at the end of the day the gear are tools, an SM7 didn't sing Thriller for Michael Jackson, Aretha Franklin voice doesn't come with a U47. It starts at the source. You can make great recordings with a Behringer x18 and budget mics. I did one mix on the hybrid set up that I thought truly had an awesome analog sound, but other mixes in the box were better and easier to recall. Unless you have an assistant, clients these days want recalls galore for the smallest adjustments. The analog gear didn't improve my mixes at all. It was more expensive and cumbersome.
@@EdThorne I mean I don’t think there’s a wrong way. It’s just about the workflow that you want. I definitely had a lot of fun using compression on the way in with a real compressor and all that jazz and at one point I had a TG one and that was amazing on drums and I would use it in parallel on pretty much everything. It was a lot of fun I definitely don’t blame anyone for having analog gear . I just found that there was other things that I need to focus on to make a good song or a good mix
I went from full studio with Neve V72 Otari Tape machines PTs and about £70k of outboard. To a hybrid mixing system based around a neve 8816 and 8804 summing system about 10 years ago . Kept a lot of the outboard for a few years and slowly realised the recall is genuinely impossible even with neves fancy recall software . It was never the same and as I got to working on more Media composition quick recall became essential and the benefits of my outboard g series bus comp and ancient pultecs where getting smaller and smaller . Hence 11 years in from closing the studio in now entirely ITB. I’ve kept a few choice bits for tracking but essentially I’m down to one rack with 5 units init . That’s it . I could never go back to analog again now .
Thumbs up for experience before any software or hardware you use. I have been mixing for 25 years. I first started with a Mackie Digital 8 bus and an Otari Radar 24 ch. recorder. From their the owner of that studio built an enormous studio with Studer 827As, Pro Tools, Outboard gear AND an SSL 9k!!! Worked their for many years, mixed many albums in that console, although only recorded to tape once; drums, bass and guitars and bounced into Pro Tools. Then I built a hybrid studio in my house and started doing side projects in there. I would sometimes mix in my studio then go mix the same song on the console, not only did it sound better but I worked much faster. But some projects wouldn’t have the budget for the console so I had to work in my home studio. Then I went to a studio with Oxford consoles, and although they are the best faders I’ve worked on, the sound wasn’t like the SSL. Then I stopped going to this studios and worked a lot in my home studio, I kept getting better with the hybrid system, and I was working faster and the budgets for the projects kept reducing!! So there was no going back. Then I started working with a producer who had two SSL 4ks. My first mixes sucked! So it was a hit and miss thing. The problem was I was doing the same things ITB and using the console as a summing mixer, but the color was getting in my way. Although the last mixes I did on it were much better, recalls were a nightmare. And we had a lot of clients so I couldn’t afford the time wasted. Came back to my hybrid mixing and just did the best I could. One day I moved to another city and didn’t want the hassle of reconnecting everything. I was working on one project that started in the hybrid system and decided to finish it 100% ITB. The results after adjusting some levels, especially drums and bass was negligible to me and to the band. Since then I stayed ITB and didn’t look back. In my experience, having to know how to get great results is the key. If you can get them with gear, go ahead! Still the recording process does have to have at least great mics, mic-pres and a/d conversion. That is a must!
To answer rhe vid title by myself Yes and no Yes if you focus on soundresults and have knowledge on whats outthere to mix in the box No if you love the workflow with hardware and love hardware in generell In 2024 and counting you can get pro results with soft and hardware
Analog hardware has the benefit of no latency. Which is a Really Big benefit, especially when it comes to automation. I am not aware of any daw that has perfectly addressed the issue of plugin latency compensation with automation.
The real difference you get is if you don't insert any fucking plugin and any insert from your daw. And sums OBT. I work that way and the difference is noticeable! I don't use plugins. And I spent a lot of money on them...
The thing I noticed about analog since my journey. The amount of headroom I have, the depth, and the sonic character from the gear. I love the hybrid approach.
Having grown up with analog and tape machines and analog hardware, I sold off almost all of my anaolg gear back in the 2000's and went ITB. After using that for 15 years I started buying analog gear again and began inserting it back into my workflow. Mostly in the tracking stage but mixing as well. Without a doubt, analog gear sounds better than plugins, but the truth is, some plugins will do things analog can't without spending many tens of thousands of dollars. A hybrid setup is the way to go. There are advantages to each platform.
I worked in a million dollar studio back in 2000s. It had the SSL 9000 and 4000. Doesn’t get better then that. With tons of outboard gear. Back then yes you needed that gear. Today you can still use it. But I can make a really great mix just using plugins and my RME interface. Plugins have caught up finally. And now if you are using outboard gear it’s for preference not out of necessity.
plugins make amazing music but still no where near hardware plugins still lack depth and 3Dness and a polish that plugins still struggle with again not to say you cannot get good masters in the box
did you waste your money? Well no, unless you feel you did? If you like analog gear: perfect, enjoy it. I dont want the hassle, my mixes sound better ITB (i feel at least and other say the same) and I can recall so easily I will never go full analog. Im a session drummer too, and I did do the A/B and I feel the ITB approach won.. though both had its advantages. But I can simply sum some tracks analog if I miss something... but I rarely feel I do. AND I saved 50k ... which I used to buy more drums ;-) NB: key is a good tape emulation... I use AirWindows ToTape5 and AnalogObsession PreBOX for that. Better than the expensive ones in my opinion.
Analog will always be worth it, but it can be a pain in the ass and I personally advise against it. These plug-in emulations of today are just stupidly phenomenal and they’ll only get better, so I advise beginners to stay away from it. Remember lads, digital won the race against analog a long time ago for many reasons. You can carry £100k of digitised analog equipment, in your bag…that should speak volumes.
I’m slightly hybrid and want to head the way you have gone however hearing that 30k. I think it’s time to leave it as it is, back itb😂I don’t record audio just for mixing
This whole discussion is a way to avoid the obvious truth: skill is what makes consistent world class mixes. Its as childish as somebody saying you need adidas football boots to be world class... If you like em, fine, but it doesnt make you better or worse.
I’m a tracking and mixing studio so having a console and outboard gear is very important for getting sounds how I want them. When mixing I’m itb unless someone wants to pay for analog mixing which is more because if recall. Honestly most clients don’t care how I mix it as long as it sounds good. If I was just a mix engineer I’d opt for a nice master bus chain. As you said in the video, these guys are getting top tier recordings to mix. Plus decades of experience interning with other pros. Cheers
I wish hardware wasn't such a slow pain in my ass... but it is! So i am completely in the box now and will sacrifice the 5% quality difference for the speed and recallability. The average consumer listen to the music on laptop speakers and bad ear buds. They cant even tell a great mix from an okay mix, all they care about is if the music moves them. So I think if you focus on the writing, energy and performance that losing 5 or even 10% quality in the track won't make a difference at all.
Hybrid, I think you touch on the main driver for me it's the tangible feedback. I tweak a knob I hear the results. I often feel a disconnect with plugins and tend to lean into presets rather than play with it and find what sounds right, meanwhile understanding the why behind it
Serban Ghenea has won a total of 19 Grammy Awards and three Latin Grammy Awards. He mixes completely in the box. So yeah you probably should have spent that money on amazing monitors, that would have made a much bigger difference than a bunch of 500 series modules. If you can't hear it you can't engineer it 😊 Analog is a disease that we all catch at some point in our careers, but it's very liberating when it's cured. Tho it's a very expensive round trip.
lol yi went down this rabbithole, for a decade 30 grand in and now out, i kept my prism lyra and a 1073n, the 500 series never could hold a weight and density tracking compared to my thermionic culture, and as my mixing got better and the right plugins and such, now my paintbrushes and small itb rig sound as good as the records i loved, its a tough pill but true, its in the mix these days, and sony mdr7506 translate great to small bose systems realworld stuff etc, just make sure the tracking chain pre ad and clock is great then your away, prism get it done
When I first started recording with a DAW I literally used it like my old tape machine. 16 in/16 out thru my old Mackie 8 buss desk. These days I do everything ITB, except for vocals going in, which I sometimes track thru my old TLA Ivory if I want some overdrive to do some screaming. Even then, Cubase's stock "Da Tube" sometimes sounds better (actually used both on my GnR covers). For the money I wanna spend and the amount of people who will listen to my songs, ITB works best for me, at my skill level.
Having started in 1993 I can state that analogue gear sounds great. But I have to be honest, plug-ins and emulation in 2023 is almost indistinguishable in a full mix. Add multiple instances, MASSIVELY less initial outlay, no maintenance no running cost, a lot more free space, no heat, instant recall, etc etc etc. There’s only one winner most of us who can’t afford 25k of analogue gear. And I have to be honest, I wouldn’t spent it on anomalous gear even if I had the cash lying around. For me the proof is in the pudding: I’ve been entirely in the box for three years now. And I’ve never looked back. Just my 2p’s worth!
Fair enough, man. It’s whatever works for you. For me it’s all about the learning experience too. Where do plugins come from, why do they try and emulate analog, etc.
No you didn't. I have about 100k worth of analog gear and tens of thousand in plugins and wouldn't trade any one of them for just one method. However, you answered your own question. You need analog gear to get the high quality sounds going in. Once its ITB then sure you can mix there. I have a hybrid setup for over 30 years and was doing in the 1990 when Hybrid wasn't even a thing. My mixes back then sound just as good as all my high end gear mixes I have now. But there is a differences in the overall quality. So, keep your gear and buy more cause its just plain fun.
since most people consume audio in mp3 format, with wireless earphones or headphones, and we record digitally these days, I couldn't care less about analogue gear. Well when I say couldn't care less. I mean although I would like the analogue gear personally, the end user isn't really going to tell, and learning is more important.
What else would you have spent $25,000 on? At the end of the day music is what you love. Won't be the last time you come across money.. Then you could buy more pluggin's 😂
If you have the skills(im sure you do),and optimized your room and monitoring first, and above all , you're coming up with results you are really happy with, then i don't think you wasted your money on analog gear, rather used your tools to full potential and took advantage of what the analog has to offer vs staying itb. This offset the cost imo. If you think you are able to get "same" mixes quality without struggling more and putting more effort and time, satying itb , then u can consider downsizing maybe. In both cases happy mixing
Since the gear holds value you could probably sell it for 20k, so did you get 10k use of it.... would be a nicer way to look at it, for sure analogue gives dimensional mojo
Haha. That’s the business way of looking at it for sure. For me, this is all about building my long term “career goal” studio further down the line. All this gear will have a place for tracking and mixing.
It’s such a catch 22. I really do love the warm audio stuff for the quality and affordable. Running through that stuff during tracking I feel and hear the slight improvements
I stick to Audioscape and Stam (even Black Lion)- happy to own no Warm (as poor as I am lol) woukd feel like buying Behringer ( tho I’m sure Warm are better humans then behrnger ceo
Analog has a nice look to it, gives one the sense of street cred, but it's importance has dwindled. My preference is analog compression for vocal tracking and that's about it. I guess I also go hybrid with guitar amp's using 100 watt heads into Two Notes Torpedo Studio. Digital or analog, the limiting factor is essentially down to ability, creativity, and experience.
I dunno man, I've heard amazing recordings done on a Slate modeling mic, vs 20k microphone chains with the nicest gear. The performance and the engineer knowing what they're doing and the room plays more of a role than the equipment had.... even in TRACKING.
Cannot compare the process of staring at a screen (to see where the knobs are going, is the mouse in the right place) to putting your hand on a rotary and turning it without even looking to see what you're doing and using your ears to get the desired result. The analog compressors I have compared in real life have always beaten the plugins. But if you're not using them properly, then there's no conversation to be had about which sound better.
No you simply got the tools that INSPIRE you to achieve your goal. Some can sit at. liptop all day, freezing tracks, comping, and that's ok... some others need tactile. I personally prefer Hybrid mixing, but I've got millions of soundscan on digital mixes and analog mixes. To each their own tool choices.
What I wonder is you spent 25k on analog outboard gear, but use very mediocre/mid level speakers. I'm not precisely familiar with how your workflow is done, so maybe it's all justified, but out of this money, I would've probably bought a pair of ATC monitors, (SCM25s or 20s since you are monitoring up close, those are cheaper and still excellent), an analog patchbay to save some money on the Flock, and maybe one or two excellent compressors instead of the many. (IGS-s, Warm Audios, etc) But, as I said, I don't know your workflow, maybe these all need to be used at once, in which case this might be the best spending of that lump sum..
I'm looking intoPMC6s, ATC SCM25As, PSI23s, and PDP MUM8s with a Trinnov unit atm. My workflow was primarily bucket mixing top down but I'm tweaking it as I go.
Yes, I agrre with you, the key is the quality of sources material, for classic and jazz you haven't to process much, in other genres yes, mix is the "colouring" phase.About 25k money question, for most of us is not the point, with good references analysis/training, and good medium high quality studio setup everyone can get at about 3500 € (pc, mic, nearfield, headphones, audio interface, controller, vv,), sw to rent, it's possible to get very good results perfect for demos and first promotion (music first). The if the songs will have good feedback then it would be possible to invest paying professional studios with also more than 25k hw gears. The problem is the 10/90 rule, after a quality treshold of the sound to get a 10% improving you need spend at least 90% more...much better to invest in a course and do many many mix and master, at least this is my vision..have a great music ..Ciao 🙂
Not to forget also the costs of electric energy, the technical assistance for repairing or other things, and in particolar the recall of the settings for every gear differenti in every song. There is now just one gear, I know, that Is possibile to control via Daw, otherwise taking photoes and using Vst Snapshots 🙂
Put some perspective into it... John Mayer with a Squier strat or you with a 20k Custom Shop? Easier to view that way, right? Sell the gear, keep the gear. Wont make a difference. NOT ABOUT THE TOOLS. Never in any discipline.
Yep, I agree. It’s all about the user. For me this journey is about learning analog workflows and characteristics and improving my ear. And having fun doing it!
