I have been enjoying these videos so much. Spent most of my life listening to preachers and scholars who do everything they can to fit the Bible to their preconceived beliefs. Finally I am at a place where I can listen to honest scholarship ❤
Those who believe Jesus knew or believed he was God (especially fully God) must also answer why Jesus prayed to his Father, and said "the Father is Greater than me". These things also seem to contradict the later creeds declaring Jesus "co-equal" with God.
It's primarily only Paul's worshippers who think Jesus is God. The apostles certainly did not worship Paul. Jesus told us many times in many ways that he was not God.
It's very difficult to be sure. My understanding of Bart's opinion and a lot of scholarly consensus, is that while Jesus didn't teach that he was God and thus his followers didn't believe it while he was alive, the idea that he was in some way divine developed quickly after his death as a way to make sense of the Messiah being executed. This very likely wasn't Paul's contribution, but something developed by those disciples who remained followers after the crucifixion. First an adoptionist version - where Jesus is the Son of God, adopted either at Baptism or at the resurrection, then with birth narratives in Matthew/Luke and eventually as pre-existent in John.
You were careful to say "Paul's worshippers" and not "Paul". For it would seem to be false to say Paul ever taught that Jesus was God or equal to God from any of the writing we have of him.
@@youngknowledgeseeker I have zero respect for Paul. He is of the spirit of anti-Christ and is not my friend in any way. He is responsible for more people being led astray than any other man in history. Do as thou wilt is the whole of the law according to Paul!
Yeap, these people always attack the 3 main tenants of the Christian faith, the Virgin Birth, Diety of Christ, and the Resurrection. All should be taken by faith.
Even Paul didnt consider Jesus to be God! But his postulations about Jesus coming to die for sins of others opened a pandora box for idolatry by later followers down the line..
In short: No. HIs disciples did not see him as God and only John 20:28 and a couple other passages in John could make a person think otherwise. Keep in mind that John's gospel has WAY more figurative language (e.g. "eat my flesh and drink my blood") that Christians love to take out of context. Jesus claimed his God (John 20:17) is the ONLY TRUE GOD in John 17:3.
*Christianity is a divided religion* that cannot even agree with itself. *It is divided on:* Doctrines, interpretations, translations, bible versions, word meanings, denominations, sects, dogma, attitude, rhetoric, and more. Christianity has around 2.3 billion believers. It will always be divided. For it not to be divided, either around 1.3 billion belivers would have to admit that they were wrong all along, or another billion mixed Protestants would have to become Catholic. Also admitting they were wrong. To mess things up even further, Catholicism and Protestantism themselves have plenty of divisions. And no version is more divided than Protestant Christians - possibly the it's the most divided of all religions. We must always remember that the people who thought up the stories, lived in the deeply superstious Hellenistic Levant of antiquity. They were all frightened, often terrified Magical Thinkers, except for perhaps a rando Greek philospher or two. But the majority, including royalty, were superstitious Magical Thinkers. To a torturous and murderous degree of self-righteous zealotry. *The bible can be, is, and will be* interpreted to fit what anyone wants it to say. To fit what each sect wants to hear, within their own degrees of arrogance, narcissism, and confirmation bias. Blended with with basic good natured, congregations of love, mercy, compassion, kindness, etc... …vs always angry, grievance collecting, hyper-toxic churches, based on hatred, hypocrisy, judgementalism and bigotry. Congregations high on hate, crazed with suspicious conspiracy theories, fake news, meanspiritednes, willful ignorance and willful lies ... Now add the ingredient of Magical Thinking, and anything one wants to be true, "is true" - especially if thinking and talking about it, and worshipping the notion, makes them _feel_ better, soothes and comforts them in their grief and fears, and celebrates their joys. It _must_ be true, because we want it to be true. That's typically the idea to try to make belief work.
We need to be mindful the Gospel of John was written about 80AD who based it on Q material which means the authors fabricated most of it to build a faith....not report facts of any kind...points that seem to be lost on those so desperate to believe they flavour the truth with their own words.
All we really know about the Jesus guy is the word Jesus is most likely a title meaning Messiah in a blend of Aramaic Hebrew not so much a name....and certainly not a title the Romans would have used in convicting and Messihnistic trouble maker... And we seem to have some evidence that the Jesus guy and his mates were Jewish trouble makers inciting civil unrest for the Romans loosely called the messiahnistic movement, as they edged the Jews to rebel against living under Roman rule by thinking one day a messiah would one day be born of virgin birth and save the Jews from their miserable existence. It was Paul, Luke and Mark who took the trouble maker ring leader and made him a messiah long after his death.... and stopped other followers of Jesus writing or preaching anything Paul was not preaching . Galatians 1:8-9 & 1 :13.
@@apollo8352 I dunno about all that...especially that nonsense about his name. Jesus 100% (Joshua, Yeshua, Yehoshua, Iesous) is his proper name meaning "Yah saves" or "Yah is salvation"...nothing to do with "Christ" which essentially meant King/Chosen One. Your posts are a bit bonkers mate, and I say that with love. It's like you made that all up, or are misquoting someone, or you read a pseudo-scholars work and are quoting them accurately...
Jesus was made from God's Man to God-Man. In his own words he never claimed divinity, Verses were twisted & added later to suit the narrative(check the council of Nicea, etc)
@Breakthechochamber Well Paul is a true deceiver, the less said the better, a Jew Bounty Hunter who goes on to write so many abhorrent books which are now part of the New Testament.
The divine claims are pretty clear in John's Gospel; although, granted, it is a very different gospel than the synoptics, where there is no real claim on Jesus's part claimig divinity. The writer of John's Gospel is coming from a very different place, where the Logos ("the Word") is a divine being existing with the Father from the "beginning." In the Book of Acts it's worded in such a way to show that Jesus was a human favored by God and then exalted after his death.
It was only after the alleged resurrection the disciple thought that Jesus is man -God. Before the alleged resurrection the guys thought that he was a teacher ... rabbi... prophet .....and they hopped he is the messiah and will be a king. When their hope dashed as Jesus disappeared and did not become the king of Israel .... as a Jew at that time, having some Hellenistic thoughts ....they counselled them self ...thinking that he was raised to heaven .... and slowly ...slowly ...exalted him to be son of God and then be God. During Jesus life …Jesus never thought or behaved like he is God…..his mother never felt …behaved …or…claimed that she gave birth to God ….His disciples, never treat Jesus as he is God. Please Christian give us break from all this nonsense and read John 17-3 ( It is eternal life ….so they may know that ONLY YOU FATHER is the true God ) very clear
Jesus prayed to God: Luke 6:12. And it came to pass in those days, that he went out into a mountain to pray, and continued all night in prayer to God. And yet people saw Jesus. This again proves that Jesus cannot be God. Exodus 33.20. But,? he said, you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live. 1 John 4.12. No one has ever seen God; 1 Timothy 6:16. who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen. 1 Timothy 1.17. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen. .
Yes, messages got altered from word of mouth. However, if you gather the common thread of Jesus’s teaching it will be revealed to you the non-duality of his teachings. Further more, he revealed the Divinity was not just in him, but in everyone. ❤
We dont even have first hand accounts of the apostles to answer this question. But they may have thought he was *the prophet LIKE MOSES in Deut 18 18.* Interestingly, the verse says that God will put words into the mouth of the prophet. This makes the whole Logos/John 1 topic useless, because this figure is not "his word" and God even has to put words into his mouth. Moreover, the Messiah (called prince or David) according to Ezekiel will even offer sin offerings for himself and is only a servant of God according to Ezekiel.
They "may" have thought he was the prophet like Moses? Peter literally calls him that in the book of Acts. What John's figurative writing in John 1 means is the same as 2 Cor. 5:19 --- that "God was IN Christ reconciling the world to himself." It's a shame Christians abuse John 1 to try to make Jesus into God. They deny Christ's teachings when they do this, and, of course, they don't care because Christians rarely ever read the book they claim to get their beliefs from.
"Dr. Dustin Smith" has also been proposing that John is also drawing upon long standing Jewish views of and anthropomorphizing of (God's) "wisdom" and "word" (like of those found in ben sirrach and other wisdom literature of the time of John). God's word and wisdom were closely related almost interchangeable, and so John says that the word/wisdom of God is now Jesus, that is where they can be found and met. No longer in Torah or the temple or wherever you thought, it's in Jesus now/it is Jesus now. By the way we can see Jesus=wisdom in Paul and the gospels. They literally call Jesus "wisdom" or "the wisdom of God", not an accident from a people whose cultural writings literally describe wisdom as a being walking about to and fro acting on behalf of God and owned by him.
The Jewish Christians continued to worship Yahweh, "the one God" after the crucifixion. Jesus' nature was debated for centuries. Some considered him a risen angel, the Son of God or, the "Son of Man." Others considered him a prophet, and many considered him to be an "anointed one" (i.e., Messiah).
I'm not aware of any Christology that considers him a risen angel. There were definitely early versions that considered him a human prophet or a human Messiah. Others that thought him the adopted Son of God - born human but adopted and exalted by God, which made the sacrifice of the death and resurrection meaningful. I've seen modern theories about people originally believing him an angel from the mythicists, but no good evidence of early heresies of that nature.
@@jeffmacdonald9863 The Book of the Hebrews chp1-2 may be addressing a community where that, or something similar was an issue. The author has to make a whole case of why Jesus is superior to Angels, there's no need for that unless people were going around equating him with Angels in some way.
In high school, one summer, I took 3 translations of the Bible and read them chapter by chapter and decided what I wanted to believe. Time has changed some of my interpretations. I believe we all get some things right and some things wrong, and mostly, it is all good depending on how it relates to your own life. Take the prodigal son story. The son,his brother, and their father all had different opinions.
I don’t mean this in a critical way, I know many people use this phrase, but I always find it odd when people say things like “I choose to believe” To me, what matters is the truth and I do my best to determine what is the truth, realizing that what I may like to be true has no bearing on what is actually true. In fact, if anything, I have a bias to believe things I want to be true so I should be most skeptical of such beliefs. For example, I would like it to be true that being moral is its own reward. That as Socrates said, a true understanding of the nature of humanity will lead us to be moral. I think it is true and I think I can provide evidence it’s true but it is an hypothesis that I’m skeptical of and subject to extra scrutiny precisely because I want it to be true.
No, his disciples only saw Jesus as their TEACHER and LORD, as attested by Jesus' words in John ,13:13. .Apostle John declared Jesus only as the SON of God and the Christ of God only in John 20:31 and in 1 John 5:1,5. Apostle Peter only IDENTIFIED Jesus as the SON of God and the Christ only in Matthew 16:16. . The Apostle Paul teach and preached Jesus as the SON of God and the Christ of God only in Acts 9:20,22; Acts 17:3; Acts 18:5,28. Martha, the sister of Lazarus, only declared that Jesus is the Son of God and the Christ. NONE OF JESUS DISCIPLES EVER SAW JESUS AS THEIR GOD, NONE AT ALL.. .IT IS THE CHURCHES ONLY THAT MAKES JESUS GOD, APOSTATE CHURCHES.
False. This is a misunderstanding of what Christ was saying, and it also assumes that there wasn’t a Tradition believed outside of the Scriptures. There is no evidence that Christianity arose from the Gospel accounts, nor is there any evidence that there wasn’t an orthodox Christianity and a united Church. There is certainly evidence of other teachings about Christ, but this is explained within the Scriptures themselves as well Church history and Tradition. This entire field of study is premised on the idea that the Holy Traditions of the Church, including the Scriptures, are not true, and there is some other underlying “truth.” This is a presupposition, not a conclusion based on evidence.
@@bradleyperry1735 _The things (the gospel) that Jesus instructed his disciples to preach was to begin at Jerusalem._ Luke 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: Luke 24:47 And that *repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.* Luke 24:48 And ye are witnesses of these things. _The phrase of calling them “Christians” began at Antioch, and not at Jerusalem._ _The phrase Christians started with Barnabas and Saul/Paul, and not with Jesus nor Jesus' disciples._ Acts 11:25 Then departed Barnabas to Tarsus, for to seek Saul: Acts 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples *were called Christians first in Antioch.* _Again Jesus foretold and instructed that the things which was to be preached in his name was to begin in Jerusalem and go out from there. The phrase Christians did not begin at Jerusalem and go out to Antioch. It began in Antioch and from there went out and then went to Jerusalem._ _Paul did many things backwards to Jesus' teachings and instructions._
@@christinabutterfield1801 I don't think anyone thinks she's trans, she has biological children of her own and that's one thing they haven't figured out how to do. She sometimes lists her pronouns as "she/her," just in case the multicolored hair doo wasn't enough to give you a hint of her leanings.
no none of the disciples worshipped or called Jesus as God..if thats not enough heres more evidence: ‘The son can do nothing by himself; he can only do what he sees his Father doing.’ (John 5:19) ‘I can of mine own self do nothing.’ (John 5:30) ‘I do not seek my own will, but the will of Him who sent me.’ (John 5:30) ‘I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father.’ (John 8:17-18:) 'My Father is greater than I’ (John 14:28) ‘My father is greater than all.’ (John 10:29) ‘So Jesus answered them and said, ‘My teaching is not mine, but His who sent me.’ (John 7:16) 'Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.’ (Acts 2:22) ‘he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, ‘My Father’ (Matthew 26:39) For Peter, Jesus was a servant of God (Confirmed In Matthew 12:18) ‘As my Father hath taught me, I speak these things,’ (John 8:28) ‘The Father, who sent me, he gave me a commandment.’ (John 12:49) ‘I ascend to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.’ (John 20:17) ‘The son can do nothing of himself, but what he sees the Father do’; and directly after ‘I can of mine own self do nothing.’ (John 5:19, 30) 'By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.' (John 5:30) ‘no man has seen God at any time.’ (John 1:18) ‘We must obey God rather than men! The God of our fathers raised Jesus’ (Acts 5:29-30) “Who is this?” The crowds replied, “This is Jesus, the prophet from Nazareth in Galilee.(Matthew 21:11) ‘But we do see him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus.’ (Hebrews 2:9) And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, (John 5:37) ‘I live because of the Father.’ (John 6:57) ‘God raised up his servant’ (Acts 3:26) ‘your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed.’ (Acts 4:27) ‘of Your holy servant Jesus.’ (Acts 4:30)
Father is source of son and spirit, and Father is without source so Father is the One Who is Supreme His Essence prevails their persons Glory be to the One,nothing resembles Him Begets not,nor is begotten
The early Jesus disciples were all Jews.The idea of a man being God would have been both repugnant and blasphemous.The same goes for the Trinity and Mother Mary.They would have been appalled and rolled in their graves.
Which is why we see an adoptionist Christology in Mark and in Paul. Adopted as the Son of God, first at his death or resurrection and in later ideas at his baptism by John. We can see the development of the idea of Jesus as God in the New Testament. Those early NT writers were still mostly Jewish. Even John, who explicitly has Jesus as always divine.
Has anyone ever thought that due to the limitations of the English language when God says let us create man in our own image it basically means that the word us is being used as a plural to define the greatness of God?? For example queens and kings of the older time would use the term we.
I would like to note that when we have trouble defining the the logic that Christ is both human and divine, we would also have to contend with the fact that existence holds both on its same plane, God and creation, which is an equally paradoxical and fallacious idea by definition. Think about it.
Apples and oranges. It does seem to many that saying Jesus is all human and all divine is like saying he is all white and all black, or all circular and all square. For example, as God a being could fly through the air if he liked; a human can't.
Using “if” in a question like that makes it, IMO, meaningless. “If my aunt was a car, she’d be a Chrysler”. “If ancient aliens built the pyramids….” “If the earth is flat….” “If unicorns are real, can they fly?”
@@vegadog3053 😂. Not sure if you’re being cheeky or not. If you are not, I’d ask god why he was so absent and didn’t give decent proof of his existence. And about why he/she created a world with so much needless suffering. I doubt a supreme being would damn me for using my critical thinking capacities to come to reasonable conclusions about the world he/she created. And, to go right back at you, what if you’re wrong about Islam, Hinduism, Judaism, Mormonism, Scientology, Zeus, or Thor?
Could it be that those generations in those societies believed that any man who has annihilated his own ego & egocentric, selfish / self-centred agendas, has literally and thus metaphysically become totally immersed in God, and it is thus that their names then become "equal" to God (for lack of better terminology). Meaning, when someone prays in the name of these great saints, such as Jesus or Krishna or Buddha, they are actually praying to God because these personalities have in essence nullified their egocentric selves & become totally immersed in God?
I am glad I saw this because it explains why St-Doug-of-PineCreek became canonised. It happened in part because St Doug's great grt grt grt grandfather flew across the Grand Canyon- unaided and not as a projectile out of an Howitzer cannon.
not accurate according to Islam: _"And mention in the Book about Mary when she withdrew from her family to an eastern place.” “So she took a veil (to screen herself) apart from them. Then We sent unto her Our Spirit (Holy Spirit) that presented himself to her a perfect man.”_ _“She said: ‘Verily I take refuge in the Beneficent (Allah) from you! if you are God-fearing.” “He (the angel) said: ‘Verily I am only a messenger of your Lord that I bestow on you a pure son’.” “She said: ‘How shall there be for me a son while no man has touched me, neither have I been unchaste.”_ _“He said: ‘So (it will be)’. Your Lord says: ‘It is easy for Me, and that We will make him a Sign (miracle) unto the people and a Mercy from Us, and it is a matter decreed. “So she conceived him (Jesus) and withdrew with him to a distance place.” “And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a palm-tree. She said: ‘Would I had died ere this, and had been a thing forgotten’.”_ _“Then (a voice) called out unto her from beneath her: ‘Grieve not! Verily your Lord has made a stream to flow beneath you’.” “And shake the trunk of the palm-tree towards yourself. It will drop on you fresh ripe dates.” “So eat and drink and refresh your eye; and if you meet any mortal, say: ‘Verily I have vowed a fast to the Beneficent (God), so never shall I speak today with any human being’.”_ _"Then she brought the child to her people, carrying him (in her arms). They said: ‘Verily you have done a very indecent thing’.” “O sister of Aaron! Your father was not a bad man, nor was your mother an unchaste woman.”_ _“Then Mary pointed to him. They said: ‘How shall we speak to one who is (yet) a child in the cradle?’” “He (miraculously) said: ‘Verily I am a servant of Allah; He has given me the Book and made me a prophet’.”_ _"And He has made me blessed wherever I may be and He has enjoined on me prayer and almsgiving so long as I live.”_ _“And (He has made me) kind to my mother, and He has not made me arrogant unblessed.”_ _"And peace be on me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I shall be raised alive.”_ _"This is Jesus, son of Mary, a statement of truth, concerning which they doubt.”_ _"It is not befitting to Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! When He decrees a thing, He only says unto it: ‘Be’, and it is.”_ Holy Qur'an - Surah Maryam (Chapter Mary) 19 : ayat 16 to 34.
@@Model3GenerativeANdroid Islam is manmade religion created by arabs for arabs. Islam just appropriated the Bible, it's stories and prophets for Islam just to legitimate new religion. What Islam says about Jesus is copy paste
@Wong Jack-Man "Who do they say I am" Disciples: Uhhh, idk God, I guess? Jesus: No, seriously, I don't really know what I'm doing here someone help me out.
Excellent interview, but one problem. The question "Did Jesus' disciples think he was God?" Was not discussed. Would've been good to learn about Jesus' self understanding and then the views of his immediate followers...those who knew him in person. Did they likely view him as a divine being? Or is it that the elevation to divine status likely kicked in sometime after the belief in resurrection kicked in?
Who is the Most High and Sovereign God? ANSWER - Jesus Christ KNOWS that the Creator is the Most High and Sovereign God who authorized and sent him from heaven to earth thousands of years ago to teach and preach the "Kingdom of God" and "Resurrection of the Dead" to imperfect, suffering, and dying human beings. FACTS about ATHEISM, AGNOSTICISM, and RELIGIOUS FANATICISM How do Atheists, Agnostics, Jehovah's Witnesses, SDAs, Mormons, Baptists, Catholics, Methodists, Born Again Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, and fanatics of all kinds of Religions in the world VALUE the lives, dignities, and existence of their co-imperfect, suffering, and dying human beings? ANSWER - All imperfect, suffering, and dying Atheists, Agnostics, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, SDAs, Catholics, Baptists, Born Again Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, and fanatics of all kinds of Religions in the world who are misleading and deceiving their co-human beings to reject the BIBLICAL Sovereignty of the Creator and the BIBLICAL authority and teachings of Jesus Christ about the "Kingdom of God" and "Resurrection of the Dead" and believe instead the lies and UNBIBLICAL teachings of the anti-Christs about "Armageddon", "heaven and hellfire", "Trinity", "rapture", and "reincarnation" are the LIARS, CRUEL, TRAITORS, MERCILESS, and DECEITFUL persons on earth who are enjoying their lives, having fun, and just don't care even if their haughtiness, lies, deceptions, hypocrisies, ungratefulness, and cruelties hurt, offend, humiliate, and degrade the lives and dignities of their co-human beings that cause their sufferings, pains, griefs, miseries, and DEATHS. The TRUTHS about the CREATOR and JESUS CHRIST that HURT, OFFEND, and ANGER all Atheists, Agnostics, Jehovah's Witnesses, SDAs, Mormons, Baptists, Catholics, Methodists, Born Again Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, and fanatics of all kinds of Religions in the world. How do the Creator and Jesus Christ VALUE the lives, dignities, and existence on earth of all imperfect, suffering, and dying human beings? ANSWER - Jesus Christ KNOWS that all imperfect, suffering, and dying human beings who FREELY and WILLINGLY - 1. Respect, love, and obey the Creator as their loving, kind, and merciful God and Heavenly Father as written in Matthew 22: 37 2. Submit to his authority as the One given by the Creator all authority in heaven and on earth as written in Matthew 28: 18 3. Believe his teachings about the "Kingdom of God" and "Resurrection of the Dead" as written in Luke 4:43, and John 11: 25, 26 are the LOWLY, ORDINARY, KIND, RESPECTFUL, and SUBMISSIVE persons on earth who will definitely be favored, honored, and rewarded by the loving, kind, and merciful Creator with ETERNAL LIFE and existence without sufferings, pains, griefs, sickness, and death on a safe, secure, and peaceful earth without traitors, liars, murderers, immoral and perverts as written in Revelation 21: 3, 4 ; 21: 8 How will imperfect, suffering, and dying human beings live and exist on earth eternally if they just become worthless and useless dusts on earth after their deaths? ANSWER - The Creator KNOWS that all human beings, like animals, will just turn into worthless and useless dusts on earth after their deaths as written in Ecclesiastes 3: 19, 20 ; 9: 5, but all his lowly, loving, kind, respectful, and submissive worshippers and believers of his Christ who died recently and thousands of years ago like Abel, Noah, Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Naomi, Ruth, King David, the Christ's early disciples, and many others will not remain as worthless and useless dusts on earth forever, instead, in the right and proper time and as written in John 11: 25, 26, the loving, kind, and merciful Jesus Christ will FREELY and WILLINGLY resurrect them back to life so that all lowly, loving, kind, respectful, and submissive human beings can FREELY, happily and abundantly live and exist on earth forever as submissive and obedient subjects of the "Kingdom of God" or His Kingdom and FREELY enjoy his and his Christ's eternal love, kindness, goodness, generosities, compassions, favors, and blessings for eternity under the loving and kind rulership, guidance, and protection of Jesus Christ as his Chosen King and Ruler of the heavens and the earth as written in Revelation 11: 15.
He is consistently and overwhelmingly portrayed as 3 things. "Messiah" ("Christ" in Greek, "Anointed One" in English). "Son of God" (Meaning the Davidically descendant "King". And per Luke and Matthew, also one whose life started directly by God alone). And "Son of Man" (portrayed as more of a self designation. Its most base meaning is "human being", and at its highest meaning refers to the "son of man" in Daniel). None of these phrases ever, ever, ever, ever, e v e r, *ever* , *e v e r* meant you were God. They all referred to being God's chosen one/marked out one or chosen King essentially. In the New Testament he is never portrayed as equal to God, he is portrayed as the #2 in the Universe, and that being a position not inherent to himself but one bestowed upon him by God after his resurrection. Please don't believe me, go do your own study, come back and tell me if this information is incorrect even.
@@youngknowledgeseeker thanks. That's actually my viewpoint also. All I was saying was that it would've been good to have also discussed the question which acts as the title of this video. :). The question the interview set out to discuss was never posed to Ehrman . A bit annoyed by that.
World famous author, Leo Tolstoy said: “Muhammad has always been standing higher than the Christianity. He does not consider god as a human being and never makes himself equal to God. Muslims worship nothing except God and Muhammad is his Messenger. There is no any mystery and secret in it. The law of the Qur’an will prevail in the world because it agrees with reason and wisdom. I have come to understand that humanity needs only a Divine law to establish the truth and destroy falsehood. Islamic law will encompass the entire world because it is consistent with reason and agrees with wisdom and justice.” .
All religions are elements of Human Culture. There's no such thing as "God". When we humans die we're dead in exactly the same way as a dog or a cat is dead. Enjoy life, there's nothing after it.
A wide breadth of knowledge. But for me, you missed the most noticeable difference, that makes [Protestant] Christianity totally unique. We believe that salvation is by God's grace, His forgiveness by our belief and repentance (Ephesians 2:7-9). In all other religions, salvation / enlightenment etc. is based on our good works. For me, this separates a true religion from a fake one (Catholic, Mormon, Jehovah's Witness, Muslim, Buddhist, Sikh, Hindu, or Pagan). For if I have repeatedly broken every command given to Moses, a just and righteous God is not going to look at my occasional helping an old lady across the road, and think that it outweighs my sin. Furthermore, sin requires a punishment, or God is neither righteous nor just. Someone has to pay for my crimes. For our wrong-doings still remain, despite our good deeds. This is why Romans 3:23 says we have all sinned. So one unique contrast is the notion that God died for our sins. This contrasts sharply with Greek and Roman mythology, where so-called gods were only capable of responding to our disobedience with vengeance and anger. The Trinity is found in the Old Testament. In Genesis, the Spirit of God walked upon the waters of the deep. This same Spirit descended like a dove on Jesus, as He was baptised in the River Jordan, and to His followers afterwards. In Isaiah 53, the Messiah (or the Christ, in Greek) is clearly identified in terms of birth, life, ministry and His death is foretold remarkably accurate. So anyone with knowledge of the Torah, would have equated Jesus as God, and Peter identified Him first in that role, says the Gospels. Of course, the nomenclature does not help, as the same person is known by different names: the Word, Son of God, Son of Man, Immanual (which means God with us), the Lamb, the Way, the Intercessor, the Saviour, the Christ, the Messiah, the Truth, I am, etc. Jesus certainly claimed to be God. He said that "if you have seen me, you have seen God", "I and the Father are one." "only God alone can forgive sins, and I tell you that your sins are forgiven". Either that was a lie or the truth. I think if it was a lie He would not have been able to do the things He did and said. In summary, I think the evidence points to this being true AND all other religions as being false.
I think it's pretty obvious that the "12 disciples" are mythical. How much sense does it make for a cult leader to pick out exactly 12 people to follow him, and they all immediately drop everything they are doing and follow? Realisticaly people would float in and out of the movement and even if Jesus were trying for 12 to represent the 12 tribes of Israel, he would not have been able to attain that. It's much more likely that the idea that he had 12 followers was a later addition. Yes I know that Paul talks about "the 12" but it's not really clear what he meant or where he got that information. Maybe the idea that he had 12 followers was already a thing in Paul's time. That doesn't make it true though.
@@onejohn2.26 Paul's writings exist but he wasn't even said to be a disciple - he was an apostle (these are different things). Peter/Cephas probably existed too, but who knows if he actually followed Jesus around as a disciple... Anyway the point is that the idea of Jesus having 12 disciples representing the mythical 12 tribes of Israel is also mythical.
@@onejohn2.26 If you go through the gospels one comes up with more than 12. As with the family/siblings of the NT main character, the actual number and names appear to have been quite fluid. The NT authors are being more creative than historical with their claims.
He hinted that he was the father but they didn't read the signs. That's why when Philip told him show us the father and that will be enough. Jesus said, He who sees me sees the Father.
Yeah, but Phil. 2 doesn't have to be understood the way you're describing. If being in the form of God (2:6) is read as a type of adam, then this can be read as consistent with the 2 Adam theology as in Romans. And doing so makes more sense of how it starts in 2:5 by saying that we're supposed to be of the same mind!
🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation: 00:15 *📜 Understanding the perception of Jesus as God in ancient times.* - Perception of divinity in ancient cultures: From ancient Egypt to Greece, the boundary between mortals and the divine was more permeable, with a continuum of divinity. - Varied perceptions of divinity: In Greek and Roman traditions, gods could take human form, mortals could have divine offspring, and some exceptional humans were elevated to divine status. 05:34 *🏛️ Exploring the concept of mortals becoming divine in Greek and Roman mythology.* - Divine beings in human form: Gods like Zeus could take mortal form for various purposes, leading to divine-human hybrids like Hercules. - Mortals elevated to divinity: Exceptional individuals, whether through extraordinary abilities or righteousness, could be deified upon death, blurring the lines between mortal and divine. - Emperor cult in Rome: Roman emperors, such as Caesar Augustus, were often deified during their lifetimes, contributing to the perception of humans as divine. 10:32 *⛪ Examining instances of mortals and divine beings in ancient Jewish thought.* - Divine beings in human form: Old Testament accounts like Genesis 18 depict instances where God himself appears in human form, interacting with mortals. - Mortals elevated to divine status: Figures like Enoch and Moses were believed to have been elevated to divine status due to their righteousness or closeness to God. - Interpretations of monotheism: While monotheism was a dominant belief, ancient Jewish thought often acknowledged the existence of other divine beings, albeit with a strict prohibition on their worship. 19:30 *🛡️ Background of Monotheism in Hebrew Bible* - Monotheism emphasized in Hebrew Bible. - Rare instances of monotheistic declarations, such as in second Isaiah. - Diversity among Jews regarding monotheistic beliefs, including the identity of divine beings. 20:49 *💬 Jesus' Divinity in the New Testament* - The New Testament presents various perspectives on Jesus' divinity. - Jesus depicted as a human exalted to divine status in some texts. - Different New Testament books offer diverse interpretations of Jesus' divine nature. 23:36 *📖 Contrasting Views in the Gospels of Mark and John* - Mark's Gospel portrays Jesus as a human figure without explicit claims to divinity. - John's Gospel presents Jesus as a divine being equal to God, emphasizing his pre-existence and divine status. - Radical differences in how Jesus' divinity is depicted in Mark and John. 25:42 *🕊️ Early Christian Views of Jesus' Divinity in Romans* - Paul's letter to the Romans contains a pre-Pauline creed emphasizing Jesus' divinity. - Jesus' divine status linked to his resurrection in early Christian thought. - Paul's complex understanding of Jesus' nature reflected in Romans 1:3-4. 29:18 *🔍 Examination of Jesus' Divinity in Philippians* - Philippians contains a poem (Christ poem) discussing Jesus' divine nature and exaltation. - Paul presents Jesus as a divine being who humbled himself to become human, then exalted by God. - Contrasts between Paul's views in Romans and Philippians highlight complexities in early Christian theology. 32:54 *🧠 Modern Christian Perspectives on Jesus' Divinity* - Modern Christian views often perceive Jesus as both human and divine, though with variations. - Orthodoxy asserts Jesus' full humanity and full divinity, challenging conventional understandings. - New Testament authors lacked philosophical frameworks to articulate Jesus' dual nature comprehensively. 38:47 *💬 Naming of Divine Beings in Antiquity* - Naming conventions of divine beings in ancient cultures. - Jesus' name was common and not particularly unique in antiquity. - Worship of gods typically involved knowing their names, but some exceptions existed. 39:56 *🌍 Conversion to Judaism in Antiquity* - Judaism was not an evangelistic religion; it did not actively seek converts. - Jews had a distinct cultural identity and were not focused on converting others. - Acceptance of converts was not common and often reluctant. 41:22 *📖 Jesus' Use of Old Testament Quotations* - Uncertainty surrounds how extensively Jesus quoted the Old Testament. - Most of the time, Jesus does not quote long passages from the Hebrew Bible. - The accuracy and extent of Jesus' quoting remain largely unknown. 43:19 *📚 Introduction of Chapters and Verses in the Bible* - Chapters and verses were introduced at different historical periods. - They facilitated reference but were not originally present in biblical texts. - Lack of chapters and verses posed challenges for manuscript collation and reading. 46:03 *🤔 Understanding the Concept of Faith* - The English term "faith" has various connotations, including belief without proof. - In Christian theology, faith is often associated with belief in the unseen. - Apostle Paul's understanding of faith leans towards trust rather than mere intellectual assent. 49:17 *📜 Evaluating Bible Translations for Historical Accuracy* - All translations carry inherent biases due to the translator's perspectives. - Using multiple translations and a study Bible can help mitigate bias. - The Harper Collins Study Bible is recommended for its diverse scholarly input and explanatory footnotes. 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I find that when people use words like abundantly, they have picked that up from other religious popular ways of talking. just like when people pray to Jesus many times and they use the word just just this and just that and just Lord wouldn't you just do this for me? abundance is a wonderfully religious word. abundantly clear. if it was so abundantly clear why is there so much debate on the issues?
@@kencreten7308 because the synagogue of Satan who is in control of the physical system currently has inserted many false teachings into the Bible and also into many other aspects of life. Simple.
It was only after the alleged resurrection the disciple thought that Jesus is man -God. Before the alleged resurrection the guys thought that he was a teacher ... rabbi... prophet .....and they hopped he is the messiah and will be a king. When their hope dashed as Jesus disappeared and did not become the king of Israel .... as a Jew at that time, having some Hellenistic thoughts ....they counselled them self ...thinking that he was raised to heaven .... and slowly ...slowly ...exalted him to be son of God and then to be God. During Jesus life …Jesus never thought or behaved like he is God…..his mother never felt …behaved …or…claimed that she gave birth to God ….His disciples, never treat Jesus as he is God. Please Christian give us break from all this nonsense and read John 17-3 ( It is eternal life ….so they may know that ONLY YOU FATHER is the true God ) very clear
Ac 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up JESUS "AGAIN"; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. Pauls claiming DAVID WAS JESUS. Jesus said...... Mt:22:42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, [The Son] of David. 43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, 44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? 45 If David then call him Lord, """""how is he his son?""""""
It is not for a human [prophet] that Allah should give him the Scripture and authority and prophethood and then he would say to the people, "Be servants to me rather than Allah," but [instead, he would say], "Be pious scholars of the Lord because of what you have taught of the Scripture and because of what you have studied."
@27:30 Jesus the Descendent of David??????? The Root (root of a tree) didn’t Jesus say “ before Abraham I am” Who was before Abraham??? The order of Melchizedek? The Noahides? Ham-Shem-Japheth? What exactly is the rainbow covenant? Seriously.....
As a muslim, I've always thought that judaism had the same idea than islam that God can't take a human form. I was shocked to learn about the verse in the Hebrew Bible where Abraham is said to have been visited by God in a human form.
Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish zombie, who was his own father, will make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh, and telepathically tell him you accept him as your savior, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a talking snake tricked a rib-woman to eat fruit from a magical tree.
Does Mark have jesus saying he is the Son of Man, etc.? I'm under the impression Jesus speaks about the son of man, but thinks he's going to be another character, but Christians later foisted the title on Jesus.
Yes. The high priest even accused Jesus of blasphemy when he referred to Himself as “The Son of Man.” Mark 14:61-64. “But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer. Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?” “I am,” said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.” The high priest tore his clothes. “Why do we need any more witnesses?” he asked. You have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?” They all condemned him as worthy of death.”
It's important, and difficult to grasp viscerally, how different the role of the divine is in our current world than in previous iterations. Our very post-Newtonian default -- even if we don't know the details -- is that some physical (include biological) process produces what we see around us. Contrast this with the not very distant world in which we had no idea how diseases worked, could not cure them, did not know what the sun was made of or how it produced light & heat, etc. etc. etc. We have moved definitively away from a world of unknowing, in which the vast bulk of phenomena could only be understood in terms of constant expression of the supernatural -- walk out your door, blink your eyes, sneeze even, and there it is. So of course for the divine to be present in our thinking at all it must, in a certain sense, be absent from our world, abstract, filmy, far away, felt only at odd moments. Yet we persist in imagining that people of the past thought like we do, and that the familiar terms have anything like the same meaning.
There was, indeed, a spectrum of divinity in the ancient world: but there is an absolute difference between Zeus and the God of monotheism. The God of monotheism, whether philosophical or religious, is absolute, probably an omnigod; whereas Zeus is a being within the world, subject to change, having overthrown Kronos and being subject to challenge in his own pre-eminence. In the ancient Greco-Roman world, the metaphysically serious people seem to have subscribed to one or other philosophy, and if it was a theistic one, to have given more or less acknowledgement to the mythological deities, as civic religion or as a metaphorical expression of some aspect of the absolute (as Lucretius begins his poem with an invocation of Venus, represented in a highly mythological way). So the claim that Jesus of Nazareth was, in some sense, the omnigod is very different from representing the deceased emperor as a god.
The Gospel of John and his logos (word) is a play on the works of Philo... just making Jesus the intermediary unlike Philo who I believe gave no name for the logos
Another Sheep following barts and megan lewis inadequacies sam shamoun exposed his silly arguments which are made my muslims and rabbinic jews as well . In the very first chapter of Mark Jesus is proclaimed to be the second Yahweh.
@@pabloandres06183 Please inform Dr. Ehrman about your conclusion that in the first chapter of Mark Jesus proclaims that he is the second Yahweh! Dr. Ehrman and vast majority of Christian Scholars think that in all three first Gospels (Mark, Matthew and Luke) there is no sign that Jesus himself says or thinks that he is the God. It is only in the Gospel of John that right away Jesus portrays and proclaims the he is the God and as you know most of Christian scholars don't even consider Gospel of John has any historical value in it at all.
Jesus was always God preexistent with the Father. His disciples beleived him to be God too. Bart Erhman is an atheist so he has to prove otherwise. The first sentence of the gospel of Mark reads : The beginning of the good news about Jesus the Messiah,[a] the Son of God,[b] 2 as it is written in Isaiah the prophet: “I will send my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way”[c]- 3 “a voice of one calling in the wilderness, ‘Prepare the way for the Lord, make straight paths for him.’”[d] Mark quotes Isaiah where the Messenger clears the way for God and applies it to John the Baptist and John cleared the way for Jesus. So, Mark beleived Jesus to be God according to the very first sentence of his gospel.
My issue with the book that he constantly uses the term "God" rather than "divine". The two aren't synonymous, and the with the points he's making "divine" is more accurate.
Although not mentioned in this interview, the Ebionites (a sizable group of Judean followers of Jesus) did not consider Jesus to be God - - at least not during his lifetime. Much like Enoch, they viewed him as being fully human until his death and at least some of them did not consider him to be "God" even after his death.
True. Some believe the Ebonites probably most closely followed the actual teachings/practices of Jesus vs the theology of Paul what later became the Gospels.
Aye, and for that reason, I myself could probably be a modern-day version of an Ebionite, but couldn't possibly accept Paul's interpretation of Christianity.
No new testament author thought he was God most likely. It's not even a contest, he is just simply never described that way as far as exegeting the Bible in its 1st century context is concerned. You don't need to pull the ebionites, use the New Testament our literal 1st century Christian documents of their dogmas. They thought he was the Christ, the Son of God. Two terms that seemed to have nothing to do with being God at all and in fact seem to disqualify you from being God.
@@youngknowledgeseeker Good point. In some ways, the NT could be described as being a debate about the nature of Jesus - man (?) prophet (?) angel (?) Son of God (?) Son of Man (?) human and/or divine (?)
@@youngknowledgeseeker Mark 8:27-29: he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that I am?” And they answered him, “John the Baptist; and others, Elijah; and still others, one of the prophets.” ... Peter answered, “You are the Messiah.
I took a class that used your Bible: Historical and Literary Introduction book, and I liked it so much I didn't sell it back after the class. That book made that class much better than I was fearing it would be.
- The Gospel was originally one book, written by Lazarus in consultation with the Apostles [John 21:24] and published soon after Jesus left them on their own. The religion was hijacked by Rome, the Gospel was broken up scrambled adulterated into a bunch of competing narratives. Later four of those adulterated gospels were canonized with falsely ascribed authorship and a Gnosticism cover-story. It was the finding of an original Gospel of Jesus scroll in Jerusalem that gained the Knights Templar power over the Church and their eventual undoing when the church finally retaliated against them Friday 13th.
Dear Megan and Bart: Bart mentioned several times that he is teaching a class at UNC about Jesus' representations in films. Could you please make a podcast about that subject? I think it would be really interesting - BTW: "Jesus of Montreal" is one of my five all times favorite movies. Very best!
No, they didn't and I'm sorry to say how many years of going through the NT it took for me to come to that conclusion. It wasn't until I started to read the gospels from the perspective of what would 1st Century Jews have believed, not 21st Century Christians, that the light bulb went on.
As a Muslim, taught to believe in Jesus, but not that he was God, I am happy to see you've come to this conclusion based on your own efforts and rational thinking.
A Jesus figure shows up in many many NDE's even to those who are self proclaimed atheists. The Bible presents Jesus in different ways and maybe that's the point. He is whoever you think he is
Jesus was a prophet and not god. The people living around him knew he was a prophet. Nobody called Jesus everlasting father, mighty god or prince of peace. John 4:19. 19 “Sir,” the woman said, “I can see that you are a prophet. Luke 24:19. “About Jesus of Nazareth,” they replied. “He was a prophet, Jesus even called himself a prophet. Luke 13:33. Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem. .
Another interesting episode. Glad to hear Bart recommend the Harper Collins NRS translation as that is what I have after watching a series of lectures by Dale Martin at Yale, I think it was. I'm from the UK so don't understand "tenure" but will look it up ready for next week.
Tenure is something given to teachers after a number of years that basically makes it harder to get rid of them. This means that they have greater freedom of expression and research. If their research takes them out of the mainstream or stated school philosophy they are not threatened.
I wish we could have heard the opposing views of Paul’s especially James the brother of Jesus. With Paul trying to evangelize his Christilogy, I’m wondering if James was like you guys are nuts he was my brother in human flesh pure and simple which is why Paul couldn’t sell it to the Jews and went to the gentiles.
@@PatrickPease clarified post. Meant Paul is going around selling that Jesus was divine while James was like no he was just my brother. This is why Paul couldn’t sell his theology to the Jews and was being claimed that he was corrupting Jesus’s teaching.
@@Michalis_Veniopoulos Stop making things up. 1. He didnt write the letter. 2. If Satan is called God of the world (2 cor 4 4) please make the same conclusion.
At 34.50 I like the Muslim stories of Jesus's childhood, to fill in. I think God's presence was in/with Jesus and Jesus was also thinking like a child and learning. Father Joseph grabbed him by the ear when he misbehaved. I think Joseph and Mark were very strong parents.
I'm a great admirer of Bart Ehrman; I love his erudition and biblical scholarship. His work on the historicity of Jesus is amazing. As a Catholic, I have not had the problems that he has had after he rejected fundamentalism. The essence of Christianity (and I choose the word 'essence' deliberately) is the belief that Christ rose from the dead. It is that belief that defines Christianity. Even St. Augustine in the 4th century said the bible should not be taken literally. Even the attributions of the Gospels to certain Apostles is uncertain as are a number of the 'Pauline' epistles. We Catholics are well aware of these 'difficulties'. They are not difficult for us and we believe in the risen Christ and the teachings and interpretations preserved and handed down through the generations; a very different perspective from 'Fundamentalism'.
We read in John chapter 3. Except a man be born again of the water and of the Spirit he cannot enter the Kingdom of God. Jesus says this in the last part of Mark, Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues. Jesus did not put salvation before Baptism, He did not say, "He that believes and is saved, shall be bapized." He puts baptism before salvation. See Acrs 2:38 Repent and be baptized every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ and ye shall receive the Holy Ghost.
What Bart is trying to explain (around 47- 48'00 ) about Paul's notion of trust/faith/belief being something stronger and stranger than an intellectual concept might be clarified by referring to the Islamic term "surrender" (which may be what the word Islam itself means, if I remember rightly) - as in surrendering to God's will, or (in Paul's system) to Jesus's love, I always hated the way Paul's words about faith vs works come across in English (the only language I know), and it's interesting to consider the possibility that Paul might have been saying something meaningful-on an emotional level even though it's fart from rational- (instead of just airheaded hoghwash that justifies selfishness and sloth, the way it's generally understood and (ab)used by a lot of modern-day "Christians".(who like the idea of being "saved" without reforming their greedy smug ways)... Keep up the great work, you two.
At the very least, we better be doing that. At least we will be able to look Jesus in the eye even if we were right or wrong about if he was literally God or not.
@@youngknowledgeseeker apparently Jesus is not coming back. He's been late for the past 2000 years. But we still can love the creator (God) by loving His creation and taking care of it.
Jesus promised that his generation would not pass before he returned again. Promise failed. Still 2000 years later, people claim his return is imminent. Kinda laughable. People always think the times they live in are special. Having an historical view really helps and,IMO, gives us needed humility.
"You're less likely to have a coup if you're a god"... that's pretty well exactly Napoleon Bonaparte's excuse for making himself emperor (I suspect he quite liked the idea anyway). There had been an attempt on his life - by a royalist, who by definition was a devout [edit: Catholic]. So by getting himself crowned by the Pope - even though the Pope had to be blackmailed into doing it, and in the end he got tired of all the rigmarole and put the crown on his head himself - Napoleon wanted his potential assassins to give up their plans rather than commit a sacrilege. Be that as it may, the fact is he died in his bed.
Yeah, that basic idea carries over from pagan god-kings to the Christian "divine right of kings". In a Christian context, kings actually being divine doesn't really make sense. It would be blasphemous. But if God has appointed the king rule, that's not far off. Didn't work all that well against palace coups or even rebellions by other wanna-be kings, but it did help against peasant uprisings and the like.
It's been a long time since I read it so I could be wrong, but I think in Philip Dwyer's book Napoleon: Citizen Emperor he mentions that Napoleon had to be convinced to take on a more regal title like Emperor. He even declined being offered the title of Caesar saying no one besides Julius Caesar, his hero, was worthy of that title including himself. Initially he liked the idea of being First Consul for life since the title set him apart as something new and different than traditional heads of state. However, he came around to the idea of Emperor since it was different than a king, place him on a more equal footing to traditional monarchs, would help consolidate his regime especially with the large number of monarchists & conservative revolutionaries (remember, the French Revolution originally started with pushes to create a constitutional monarchy and later spiraled into over throwing it creating a republic of some sort). Even then he was never "Emperor of France" but instead "Emperor of the French" which did two things: invoke the Frankish ruler Charlemange who was crowed "Emperor of the Romans", and also present Napoleon as the leader of the French people and its citizens, rather than the owner of the state. That said, even without the various titles he was more than happy to think to himself as the heir to Louis XVIII's thrown, saying things like "I found the crown of France in the gutter and I picked it up" and using the kings old possessions, like silverware or finely crafted hunting rifles, for his own enjoyment.
Jesus is not god. Jesus said he has a god. Mark 12:29. Jesus replied, “The most important commandment is this: ‘Listen, O Israel! The Lord our God is the one and only Lord . John 17:3. Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. John 20:17. Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’” Jesus also made it very clear that he can do nothing, and did not like people equating him to god: Matthew 19:17. And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, John 5:30. I can of mine own self do nothing: .
SAY NO TO TRINITY! Deuteronomy 6:4. Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. Mark 12:29. Jesus replied, “The most important commandment is this: ‘Listen, O Israel! The Lord our God is the one and only Lord . 💖☝God says: Qur'an 112:1-4. قُلْ هُوَ اللّٰهُ اَحَدٌ "Say, He is Allah, [who is] One," (QS. Al-Ikhlaas: Verse 1) اَللّٰهُ الصَّمَدُ "Allah, the Eternal Refuge." (QS. Al-Ikhlaas: verse 2) لَمْ يَلِدْ ۙ وَلَمْ يُوْلَدْ "He neither begets nor is born," (QS. Al-Ikhlaas: Verse 3) وَلَمْ يَكُنْ لَّهٗ كُفُوًا اَحَدٌ "Nor is there to Him any equivalent." (QS. Al-Ikhlaas: Verse 4) .
GOOD TRY! 😂 MY TURN! "For in him all the fullness of the 👉Godhead dwells bodily." - Colossians 2:9 "Without controversy, the mystery of godliness is great: 👉God was revealed in the flesh, justified in the spirit, seen by angels, preached among the nations, believed on in the world, and received up in glory." - 1 Timothy 3:16 "Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son. They shall call his name Immanuel;" which is, being interpreted, 👉"God with us." - Matthew 1:23 '"If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on, you know him, and have seen him." Philip said to him, "Lord, show us the Father, and that will be enough for us." Jesus said to him, 👉"Have I been with you such a long time, and do you not know me, Philip? He who has seen me has seen the Father. How do you say, 'Show us the Father?"' - John 14:7-9 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day. He saw it, and was glad." The Jews therefore said to him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?" Jesus said to them, "Most certainly, I tell you, 👉before Abraham came into existence, I AM." - John 8:56-58 "looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great 👉God and Savior, Jesus Christ." - Titus 2:13 '"I and the Father are one." Therefore Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, "I have shown you many good works from my Father. For which of those works do you stone me?" The Jews answered him, "We don't stone you for a good work, but for blasphemy: because you, being a man, 👉make yourself God.' - John 10:30-33 "Of whom are the fathers, and from whom is Christ as concerning the flesh, 👉who is over all, God, blessed forever. Amen." - Romans 9:5 'Thomas answered him, 👉"My Lord and my God!" Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen, and have believed."' - John 20:28-29 "Behold, I come quickly. My reward is with me, to repay to each man according to his work. 👉I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End." - Revelation 22:12-13 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and 👉the Word was God." - John 1 👉"The Word became flesh, and lived among us..." - John 14 "He was in the world, and the world was made through him, and the world didn't recognize him." - John 1:10 "For to us a child is born. To us a son is given; and the government will be on his shoulders. His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, 👉Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." - Isaiah 9:6 'Jesus said, "I'm the light that's over all. 👉I am the All. The All has come from me and unfolds toward me. Split a log; I'm there. Lift the stone, and you'll find me there."' - Gospel of Thomas, Saying 77 "His Son is the radiance of his glory, 👉the very image of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power... " - Hebrews 1:3 ”Have this in your mind, which was also in Christ Jesus, who, existing in the form of 👉God, didn't consider equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men. And being found in human form..." - Philippians 2:5-8 'Seeing their faith, he said to him, "Man, your sins are forgiven you." The scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, "Who is this that speaks blasphemies? 👉Who can forgive sins, but God alone?"' - Luke 5:20-21 'When I saw him, I fell at his feet like a dead man. He laid his right hand on me, saying, "Don't be afraid. 👉I am the first and the last, and the Living one. I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. I have the keys of Death and of Hades."' - Revelation 1:17-18 🙌🛐Jesus received worship: "Where is he who is born King of the Jews? For we saw his star in the east, and have come to worship him." - Matthew 2:2 "They came into the house and saw the young child with Mary, his mother, and they fell down and worshiped him..." - Matthew 2:11 "When they got up into the boat, the wind ceased. Those who were in the boat came and worshiped him... " - Matthew 14:32-33 "... They came and took hold of his feet, and worshiped him." - Matthew 28:9 "He said, "Lord, I believe!" and he worshiped him.' - John 9:38 ..."Let all the angels of God worship him." - Hebrews 1:6 ⚠️Now compare this to when people tried to worship people or even angels: 📌'I fell down before his feet to worship him [the angel]. 👉He said to me, "Look! Don't do it! I am a fellow bondservant with you and with your brothers who hold the testimony of Jesus. Worship God, for the testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of Prophecy."' - Revelation 19:10 'Now I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. When I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who had shown me these things. He said to me, 👉"See you don't do it! I am a fellow bondservant with you and with your brothers, the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship God."' - Revelation 22:8-9 'When it happened that Peter entered, Cornelius met him, 👉fell down at his feet, and worshiped him. But Peter raised him up, saying, 👉"Stand up! I myself am also a man."' - Acts 25:26 [And in Acts 14:8-18, St. Paul rejects worship] 👉And finally, from the mouth of YAHWEH (God) Himself: ⚠️"I will pour on the house of David, and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplication; 👉and they will look to me whom they have pierced..." 🔨✝️📌[Understand WHO is speaking here!] - Zachariah 12:10 💜
It depends what you call christian. I sort of call myself christian partly because of the culture but also because I find truth and value in a lot of hthings jesus said. Ironically people who say I"m NOT a christian would then go on to spout practices and views that are more closely associated with Paul, who never met Jesus, and typically says the OPPOSITE of what jesus said.
@@r0ky_M Not at all, but thats irrelevant, I'm interested in the words, metaphors, allegories and moral and political attributes. If it had been Pete Seeger I'd be a Seegerian, in fact he said a lot of good stuff too.
I am an exJW (Jehovah’s Witness). They teach that Jesus was “a god” Satan is also called a god (“the god of this world”) in 2. Corinthians 4:4, and humans were sometimes called gods in the Old Testament). It means mighty or powerful persons. JWs teach that Jesus is subordinate to God the Father and not part of the trinity. It will be interesting to hear your explanations!!
JW are right in : Jesus is not God but subordinate to the Almighty . As for Trinity: Trinity is no mystery - simply misunderstood / The Spirit proceeds from the Father - In Christ Jesus exhibits / It reveals a relation between God and man that exists / The Three are not coequal - though the 3 do coexist. What made you leave JW.
The Trinity idea comes from Pythagorean Philosophy, but it might have originated from either Judaism or Egypt.?Pythagoras was educated by Jews in Egypt (according to legend) and was Phoenician. The basic idea was that The One is God the Monad the origin of all things, two was the feminine principle and three the male principle (and regenerative principle) and that Three was the first real number, as it takes three points to make a shape. And Plato said the world behind the physical world which we can not perceive is made of triangles. So the early Logos Doctrine Christians saw Jesus as the Divine order of Creation and axis Mundi. Which can easily be read in the writings of Justin Martyr. Philo the Jewish philosopher was called “the Pythagorean” by (I think Clement) and there is an ancient reference that the Essenes were Pythagoreans as well. In early Christianity the followers of Paul such as the Marcionites were in conflict with the Logos Doctrine Christians. And part of the conflict was Doetic vs Trinitarian.
@@loveismyreligion548 , thanks for your reply! JWs do not know that the JW organization has lost many court cases where millions of dollars are being payed out for the mishandling of child sexual abuses. We were constantly warned not to read or watch anything negative about the organization. Professor Hassan, cult expert calls this “information control”. Behavior control, Information control, Thought control and Emotional control (the BITE Model) all 4 can be applied to the Jehovah’s Witnesses. I learned that the founder CT Russell was a false prophet and false teacher, so was the next leader Rutherford. We were followers of men (namely the 8 members of the Governing Body in New York). We had to obey these men and follow their rules.
The earliest part of ANY gospel is Papyrus No. 52, which is part of A version of the Gospel of John and is the size of a credit card, and is dated to no earlier than 125 AD.
Professor Ehrman I love listening to you but a few of your explanations with respect to Hebrew scripture or not in line with Jewish teaching at all. The angel of the Lord and the third man meeting Abraham is not G-d. The nephilim were not heavenly beings according to every Jewish exegesis. I'm just raising this point because when a lot of us listen to analysis it is completely alien to what the Jewish sages have taught for thousands of years. Minor quibble I enjoy all your presentations and Megan you are absolutely an extraordinary person!
Love the podcast! Huge fan of Dr. Ehrman, I actually got to meet him once many years ago, in Toronto. It was a big deal for me (: I would like to see a debate between Dr. Ehrman and Mark Goodacre, on any topic! Doesn't matter what the subject is, perhaps the existence of Q, or something like that? I would pay good money to see that debate! Love to see it happen someday, my inner nerd would go crazy! Lol 😆🙏
Yes, they knew He was.. Peter told Jesus that he knew He was God, he said Jesus was "the Christ, the Son of the Living God." Jesus said that this was revealed to Peter, not by the flesh but by the Father in heaven. Jesus claimed to be the "Son of God", claiming this is accepting deity and making yourself equal with God, and Jesus claiming to be the "Christ" means that He is the "Annointed One', "The Messiah" , the Jews knew this, this is why the Jews wanted to stone Jesus on TWO different occasions, The disciple Thomas also after seeing Jesus after the resurrection claimed Jesus to be his "Lord and his God." All of Jesus's disciples knew that He was God and went to share the Gospel with the world. We must remember that this is our temporary home separated from God for a short period of time because of sin, but all people who repent of their sins and believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ in the Holy Bible and accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior by believing that He was God on earth Who died to pay for their sins for them and resurrected from the dead to defeat eternal death for them and believe Jesus is coming back again at the end of this world to set up His eternal kingdom, will be forgiven of their sins and have eternal life reconciled with God. Read the entire Gospel of Jesus Christ in the Holy Bible in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. THE GOSPEL (THE GOOD NEWS) OF JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD AND SAVIOR - Jesus Christ came down here from heaven, God on earth, to be born one of us His own creation and He dwelt among us for over three decades and He taught us about God and His eternal heavenly kingdom and how to live righteously and He lived a perfect sinless life. Then He gave His sinless life to all people from all nations to pay for our sins for us for us, by dying on the cross and resurrecting from the dead three days later, to take the punishment for our sins for us, to defeat eternal death for us to reconcile us sinners with God to give us eternal life with Him, and after He resurrected from the dead to defeat death for us, He lived on earth for forty more days, speaking to many people, then He ascended back up into heaven and He is coming back again at the end of this world to set up His eternal heavenly kingdom for all people who repent of their sins and believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ in the Holy Bible and accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior Who died to pay for their sins for them, to live in for the rest of eternity, forgiven of their sins and reconciled with God.
I have always felt confused by the timeline following Jesus' arrest to the time of his death. Growing up as a Catholic it has always been inferred that he was arrested on Thursday, and crucified on Friday. As a Catholic it is understood that Jesus was the most important person ever born, so historically they would have assumed every high mucky muck would have cleared their calendars for such a VIP. BUT that is seen only from an historical perspective from Jesus' worshipers. BUT In Jerusalem, to those who had him arrested, he was seen as a rabble rouser. Why wouldn't they have arrested him and let him cool his heals in a nice shady cell for a few months before anyone of any importance bothered to see him about his case, if ever? It is my understanding that many people just "got lost" in the dungeons never seeing the light of day after being arrested by the Romans. But they report that He would have had to have been arrested, then directly taken before Pilot (the most important Roman in town), then directly taken before Herod (the most important Jew in town), then brought directly back to Pilot, they then had to get a gathering of people to form for Pilot to offer Jesus or Barabbas; they never say how Jesus got from Pilot's place to the Palace or back (did they just walk), nor how long did they have to wait to be seen by some of the most important people in the country. So in a day he was arrested, taken before the Governor whose schedule was wide open to deal with an arrested rabble rouser, he meets the guy, decides he doesn't like the case, and sends it to the King, whose schedule is wide open, and He is immediately available to see someone He may {or may not} see as a rival, but takes the time to interview him anyway, then ultimately sends him back to Pilot, whose schedule is still wide open to deal with a miscreant, because a Roman Governor didn't have anything else on his plate. How long were the Jews in Israel generally held between being arrested and actually seeing any kind of judge? It all seems rather quick that all of the most important people in Israel at the time had wide open schedules; try making an appointment with even the lowest level judges today, you can wait months before being placed on their docket.
Remember that it is a piece of literature that you are analyzing. It’s not unlike Star Wars fans analyzing things and events from books,movies, and shows from the Star Wars universe. The gospel narratives are based on oral tradition passed on for 40-70 years after the death of Jesus so it is extremely easy for losses in translation, contradictions, and diversity of the narratives.
I suspect the Jewish Council was 'hot to trot' so to speak, but Pilate was more concerned with the coming Passover than he was about the leader of a small band of Jewish oddballs, and so there was a quick announcement of the charge and sentence. The palaver about Pilate having a private chat with Jesus (that we somehow know about), crowds gathering and Pilate washing his hands of the affair, is likely embellishment.
I recall maybe from another episode of this podcast that Pilate, as governor, didn't actually have very much power per se and was mostly responsible for collecting taxes and ensuring there weren't revolts. With the memory of the Jewish wars still fresh in Roman minds it would have been a priority to prevent revolt by acceding to the demands of powerful figures in the local community.
On the subject of how long to trial a person would have been held, you need to understand that it was very likely not a trial to begin with. Court cases for citizens of the Roman Empire were tried properly and required long setup times just like in our time. Cases brought to the ethnic judges involving non-citizen local elites also took a while to handle. Sentencing a rabble rouser took three seconds. Why waste dungeon space if you can deal with it today? Pop in, pop out, cross. Done.
Whom did the apostles believe Jesus to be. Acts 2:22 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus the Naz·a·reneʹ was A MAN publicly shown to you by God through powerful works and wonders and signs that GOD DID THROUGH HIM in your midst, just as you yourselves know. Acts 10:38 about Jesus who was from Nazʹa·reth, how God anointed him with holy spirit and power, and he went through the land doing good and healing all those oppressed by the Devil, because GOD WAS WITH HIM. No one in their right minds would believe a man would be God. God worked THROUGH Jesus, though.
Stop this nonsense at once. Jesus is Son of God and he now sits at right hand of God in Heaven. No one goes to the Father in heaven but through Christ, and only Christ. So stop all the blasphemy. May God have mercy on your soul.
Hey Bart, everyone always coments on Megan's appearance, and I don't want you to feel left out. Those tortoiseshell glasses are on point and your beard is looking particularly distinguished today.
@@--cr35 That is emotional appeal, just like children when they like something, which doesn't necessary means it is good for them, and doesn't change the fact that it is an abomination and will bring God wrath upon all who participate or support it.
@@--cr35 "80. And Lot, when he said to his people, “Do you commit lewdness no people anywhere have ever committed before you?” 81. “You lust after men rather than women. You are an excessive people.” 82. And his people's only answer was to say, “Expel them from your town; they are purist people.” 83. But We saved him and his family, except for his wife; she was of those who lagged behind. 84. And We rained down on them a rain; note the consequences for the sinners."[Quran 7:80-84]
Do you people think that God is making it so difficult for his creation of human beings to get to know him or know what he is ?! Do you think he is going to leave it to our feeble limited minds to figure it out and then he goes and judge us with what we came up with rightly or wrongly ?! Any so called “ holy book “ that makes this topic a conundrum or open to discussion with the finding of many flows and contradictions is definitely not to be followed or trusted ! Simply look somewhere else !
Hello Sir great program. My opinion.Iif Jesus came from God he is a god there is always that Supreme God and lower gods such as in Palms 82 the Elyon in conceil with the Elohim, The Almighty is talking to the gods..In the Creation stories it states Let US make man. Genesis 2 stop them or they will become like us.so if a God created Jesus then Jesus can be a god. 🤔 created
