Did Oberyn poison Tywin?

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13 сен 2024

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Комментарии : 425

@james-97209 16 дней назад

The irony of all things is that if rob had postponed his return to the north for like a month or so chances are that the red wedding wouldn't have happened because with tywin and Joffrey dead , Tyrion in essos and Cersei in power rob would appear as the strongest at the time making the freys and the Boltons unlikely to betray him because at the time it would be stupid to do so and far more advantageous to remain loyal. Or at least thats what I think

@j-rey- 16 дней назад

Robb's downfall really was death by 1000 cuts :(. So many small things went wrong.

@Knight-In-Green 16 дней назад

I honestly think of many of G.R.R.M's plots and characters as similar to power-scaling in comic books; the story dictates turn of events, not reason or established lore.

@sarcastaball 16 дней назад

And if George never wrote that book you wouldn't know about any of this. What's your point

@mattcorr5597 16 дней назад

@@sarcastaball you are very clever

@Richard_Nickerson 16 дней назад

Except way more time than that passes

@CarlG-xu6qe 16 дней назад

Either he did or Tywin had the worst case of bubble guts known to man

@Timbo6669 16 дней назад

“Bubble guts”? That’s one I haven’t heard. Is it indigestion?

@stingerjohnny9951 16 дней назад

@@Timbo6669 it can mean a lot of different things based on context, but it generally refers to the runs

@Wolfeson28 16 дней назад

@@stingerjohnny9951 Wouldn't that be the precise opposite of what Tywin had, though?

@chaost4544 16 дней назад

@@Timbo6669 I've heard this term in recent years and it makes me laugh. It's an accurate description of the intestines facing a bad situation.

@clownpendotfart 15 дней назад

Tywin died weeks after Oberyn. He couldn't have been that badly off for nobody to notice over all that time.

@Otsego 16 дней назад

While Oberyn is easily the prime suspect, your conclusion on Varys' motives seems to lend itself to both sides of the argument. If Varys wanted to kill Tywin but not get caught. Poisoning him while a famous master of poisons is around that has motive and is shouting about how he wants Tywin dead would make a pretty great cover. Then, after Oberyn died, when they may have done more of an investigation, Tyrion comes along with murderous potential to clean it all up. I believe fully that Oberyn did it but I would not feel lied to if Martin himself blamed Varys.

@saeyabor 16 дней назад

I think you're right, except for one point: you're talking like we have to choose between Oberyn and Varys. Varys killed Ser Kevan for being _competent enough to potentially cause delays for Connington._ There's *_NO_* reason he wouldn't "openly" (by his standards) approach Oberyn with a time of day and shelf-number to check Pycelle's lab, when it comes to removing Tywin.

@wumbojet 16 дней назад

Imagine how funny would it be if actually both Oberyn and Varys poisoned him but the poisons cancelled each other and just gave Tywin the worst case of constipation in Westerosi history.

@joseph-fernando-piano 16 дней назад

@@wumbojethaha like if Oberyn gave him Widow’s Blood and Varys gave him something that makes you uncontrollably shit yourself to death, and meanwhile they’re both confused when Tywin is just like “my bowels have never felt better!”

@clownpendotfart 15 дней назад

@@joseph-fernando-piano That would honestly be more plausible than the claim of this video... because Tywin lived for weeks after Oberyn's death without anyone noticing anything.

@hebi172 5 дней назад

What would Martin Luther do?

@stephendavis6267 16 дней назад

My theory has always been that Tywin was dying when Tyrion killed him, but not of poison. I like to imagine that Tywin was dying of bowel cancer, and that as a proud and private man, he wasn't going to make it public, but at the same time, he was more desperate to make sure that his family legacy was consecrated immediately.

@jackfoxx6351 16 дней назад

And truth be told this is what I've always thought as well but after watching this video I'm not so sure. But after Tywin died my original thought was that monologue he gave to Aria at Haron Hall about this being his last war.

@davideberhardt6150 16 дней назад

@@jackfoxx6351 But that dialogue does not happen in the books. In the books, Arya and Tywin barely meet, she's a cup bearer to Roose Bolton 'til her escape from Harrenhal.

@apstrike 16 дней назад

This is exactly the kind of thing that Martin should do but doesn't. It would have added so much realism to the character of Tywin, and giving a character an ordinary death would make some of the other overly dramatic deaths feel less so.

@clownpendotfart 15 дней назад

More plausible than this video. Because Tywin lived for weeks after Oberyn died, without anybody noticing anything.

@kworyl6490 7 дней назад

I guess the ‘bowel cancer’ angle would be a play on the saying that ‘Tywin shits gold’ 👍👊

@brandanpalmer9712 16 дней назад

Well, there's another GIANT clue: the poison's name. Any poison would have worked. Probably there's a different poison that would be more fatal, or perhaps even more painful and drawn out. But which widow's blood did Tywin have on his hands? Elia's a widow at the time of her death, and she bled horrifically.

@barehardjeremy 16 дней назад

this a good point. Giving the poison that sort of name is exactly the kind of foreshadowing GRRM uses.

@aulex6545 10 дней назад

This is actually super in line with what GRRM does with the name of in Jon Arryn's death. the poison used is "Tears of Lys", and it is later revealed that the culprit is Lysa, who reluctantly poisons her husband after being manipulated by Littlefinger and cries great tears over his death. Could be a coincidence, but GRRM loves doing stuff like this.

@SlytherinShark888 15 дней назад

Given that Tywin’s most infamous act was damning up the river next to Castemere and thus drowning hundreds, it’s fitting that he was slowly drowning from his body being dammed of its own toxic liquids. Gotta give it to GRRM. He’s creative.

@mt_baldwin 16 дней назад

A master of poison enacting a plot years in the making and travels hundreds of miles to where his target is and.... steals the poison to be used? This evidence works more to exonerate Oberyn than convict him. Stealing the poison is the act of someone without regular access to such poisons, which hardly fits Oberyn. It's also an unnecessary risk, as indeed the poison being stolen was noticed and the whole court knew about it. One more thing, if he had won the duel, made the Mountain confess and Tyrion didn't kill Tywin (so basically events going the way Oberyn hoped/expected they would go), he would be immediately blamed as surely as if he stuck his spear in Tywins chest. No one would believe it was anyone other than Oberyn. He would probably be tried for Joffery's death as well (as in this line of events Tyrion would be found innocent via trial by combat), a vengeful master poisoner shows up in Kings Landing and two Lannisters die via poison.

@Itomon 16 дней назад

Its more fitting that this is someone else's plan, probably Varys, and considering how Varys also facilitates Tyrion's escape, this makes even more sense. My take is, poisoning Tywin was a backup plan that was hastily fowarded after Tyrion's trial

@lisahuber9329 16 дней назад

Actually stealing the poison was a great plan because anyone could have done it. Otherwise it would have been obvious that it was Oberyn, because who else could have made that poison themselves?

@clownpendotfart 15 дней назад

Which is why I don't believe he came to King's Landing to kill Tywin himself, rather than to make him publicly declared guilty of those orders.

@astrinymris9953 15 дней назад

Unless Pycelle lied about this poison being stolen, to cement Tyrion's guilt in the eyes of the court. And if Tywin did noticeably die by Widow's Blood... then of course Tyrion must have poisoned him before being executed. I mean Tyrion had been found guilty of one act of kinslaying by poison in the court's eyes. Who'd question the revelation that he'd committed a second one?

@georgianamatoianu7453 15 дней назад

Consider how did Oberyn plan to get justice on Clegane? He had to bring him to King's Landing. I think he wanted to be accused of Tywin's murder, so he can demand trial by combat, and bet on the Lannisters bringing in Clegane to fight for them, thus killing them both. Another trial by combat presenting itself due to Joffrey'a murder was coincidence.

@sardonically-inclined7645 16 дней назад

I'm not saying he did it. I'm just saying it's a shame he didn't get to live long enough to see Tywin's demise. And I'm a Tywin stan.

@thing_under_the_stairs 16 дней назад

I love both Tywin and Oberyn as characters, and I'm still uncertain here. There's circumstantial evidence and a strong motive, but nothing solid. I'm not even convinced that Tywin was being poisoned - gut wounds mean faster putrefaction, and the quick decomp could just be a metaphor for what a truly rotten person Tywin was under the gilded armour. But if he *was* poisoned, my money would indeed be on Oberyn Martel.

@PumpkinHoard 16 дней назад

Tywins Terrible Turds, a childrens book Oberyn planned to write when he returned to Dorne.

@arnaldolopez6471 16 дней назад

But just like winds of winter, we’ll never get to see it lol

@sfrink1425 16 дней назад

LOL!

@thing_under_the_stairs 16 дней назад

I might write that as an intro to the world of ASOIAF for my 10 yr old niece. She loves anything gross. No doubt she'll want a dragon, too.

@fydofire 16 дней назад

@@arnaldolopez6471 Winds of Winter might actually just be a collection of House Stark's best fart jokes.

@venomdrenched 16 дней назад

Complete with a song designed to supplant Rains of Castamere.

@AndrewK23777 16 дней назад

Great vid as always IDG. Tywin's stomach issues / struggling to go to the bathroom , the stench after the killing blow ; along with the extreme rotting , decay and extra extreme odor(s) while Tywin's body was laid out all very suggestive of poison. Very likely Widow's Blood as the vid suggests. Overall Oberyn seems the type who is so sharp and cunning that he implements numerous contingency plans when pursuing an aim. Someone so resourceful and knowledgable (very well rounded knowledge at that) with considerable access to just about anything ; and specifically a propensity and considerable knowledge of poisons all adds up nicely in this situation (Tywin's death). Such a cunning person as OM the contingency plans just seem to be his way ; he was going to expose and eventually (and arguably most importantly) kill Tywin one way or the other. If OM's plans did not materialize the way h expected the poison is the failsafe. Further suggestive of it being Oberyn's way OM also used poison in combat with the Mountain as an insurance policy in case he couldn't accomplish the challenge with Gregor. If not for Oberyn's further agenda with Gregor he would have bested him simply via combat but the poison the failsafe yet again. This just seem Oberyn's way , knowledge and tendency to use poisons lines up nicely ; and seems he likes to have layers of contingency plans / failsafe which the poisons acted was with Tywin and beyond. One way or the other the Red Viper makes sure to find his mark.

@MJG72a 16 дней назад

Or Varys did it. He knew exactly how to get into the Hand's room. Sending Tyrion ensured his now needless attempt at poison could be covered up. Oberyn was killed unexpectedly and so wouldn't have set up the murder yet, no rush. Plus as a master poisoner wouldn't he have brought his own?

@venomdrenched 16 дней назад

Alternatively, he stole a poison that would be missed and therefore cast suspicion on anyone in the keep.

@Klongu_Da_Bongu 16 дней назад

And a strong Tywin would defeat the Griff. He would take a combined Tyrell/Lannister army and defeat the Griff, and then secure the Stormlands entirely.

@toms169 16 дней назад

You say Oberyn wouldn‘t have set up the murder yet as he didn‘t expect to die. But he couldn‘t KNOW that he‘d beat the Mountain. Had he been 100% confident, he wouldn‘t have laced his weapons in poison either. So in my mind the trial by combat is the exact reason why him poisoning Tywin HAD to be rushed, to make sure he got his revenge even if he lost the duel. Your other arguments for Varys being the poisoner are very strong however! GRRM specifically tells us that Varys‘ little birds must have heard Oberyn‘s threats regarding Tywin. So Oberyn being in the city is the perfect cover for Varys poisoning Tywin. And Tyrion killing Tywin is even better, as it hides the poisoning altogether.

@Klongu_Da_Bongu 16 дней назад

@@toms169 And we know he got rid of Kevan

@KC-in9px 15 дней назад

Or no one did it. It's a work of fiction. The way that you geeks ponder the what ifs is hilarious.

@gshift83 16 дней назад

I think what people are not asking is who or which House benefits if Tywin dies? I suspect Varys. He is well aware of the enmity btw the Martells and the Lannisters plus Oberyns' arrival in Kings Landing presents him with a perfect opportunity to take advantage of the quiet storm brewing btw the two Houses. Who better to blame for the poisoning of the Kings Hand than the Viper of Dorne himself who was not shy to voice his distaste for the Lannisters. "I tell you a secret- Your not a golden lion".😅

@michaelbayer5094 16 дней назад

In the books, Prince Doran is playing the long game for vengance (too long maybe?) by being pro-Targaryen all along. Varys is absolutely pro-Targ supporting the 2 surviving branches of the family. Varys sends Tyrion to Dany to get her to Westeros. Doran dispatches Arianne to find Young Griff (fake Aegon?). I don't think Varys would want Dorne blamed for Tywin's murder. He wants Tyrion blamed. There's ample evidence that Tyrion is the wedge that can split Cercei and Jamie. Varys is eliminating all rivals to Cercei's drive for power, who is weak and stupid, so Martell-Targaryen alliance can take the throne.

@clownpendotfart 15 дней назад

He can't blame Oberyn for giving Tywin widows blood... because everyone knew that Oberyn died weeks before Tywin, and thus couldn't have poisoned him more recently than that. Pycelle would know that Tywin wasn't dying over that time period.

@michaelbayer5094 15 дней назад

@@clownpendotfart You make a good point, but what if it's a slow-acting poison? Since Oberyn did not intend to die, or even if he factored that in, a slow-acting poison would permit Oberyn to leave KL before Tywin died, and pre-empt suspicion of Dornish involvement.

@clownpendotfart 15 дней назад

@@michaelbayer5094 What possible poison is not noticeable for weeks, and then causes death afterward? How can that be reconciled with human metabolism? Would it need to be something radioactive, but with a long enough half life that it takes a month to accumulate enough damage, and also somehow isn't flushed out of the body? And if you believed he wasn't defecating that whole time, wouldn't he realize something was up and be consulting with Pycelle rather than bringing Shae into his bed?

@Infiltator2 8 дней назад

He probably gave it Tywin before the death if Joffrey. If they then believe it was him he can demand the trial by combat. Sp then he can kill the mountain and is free to go. Thats like a perfect plan

@KicktheSky34 15 дней назад

It's kind of amazing, bordering on plothole, that Oberyn is never once even suggested, that I can recall, to have been the one to poison Joffrey.

@James-bi4jz 16 дней назад

Saying the Starks would not stoop to poison makes sense, but the same doesn't stand for Stanis. He was a cold hearted pragmatist who used dark magic to kill his own brother. That said there is nothing to suggest it was him and the case for Oberyn does seem strong.

@clownpendotfart 15 дней назад

The case for Oberyn is weaker than for anyone who was still alive when Tywin died, because that happened weeks after Oberyn's death.

@johnmitchell4043 16 дней назад

Tywin did not give the order to kill Elia Martell... when Tyrion asks why he order her dead Tywin answers... he ordered the death of Rheagars children not Elia, Once her children were dead Elia posed no threat, killing her served no purpose... Tyrion asks, 'then why didnt you order her to be spared?' Tywin says ' because I didnt think to, all my thoughts were on Jamie and I didnt realise what I had in Sir Greagor at that point...

@georgianamatoianu7453 15 дней назад

A point that isn't covered is how did Oberyn plan to get justice on Clegane? He had to bring him to King's Landing. I think he wanted to be accused of Tywin's murder, so he can demand trial by combat, and bet on the Lannisters bringing in Clegane to fight for them, thus killing them both. Another trial by combat presenting itself due to Joffrey'a murder was coincidence. ETA: Another clue to this is more of a meta one, but when Pycelle is listing poisons, he only stops to describe widow's blood, and no other, which makes you think it has to have some relevance.

@Infiltator2 8 дней назад

Exactly. He kill kill both and is still a free man. Killing Tywin is the only reason why he would travel to Kings Landing

@brendan9868 12 дней назад

Poison or not Tywin’s death was definitely inspired by the alleged death of William the Conqueror. Apparently after William had died, the people around him on his deathbed kinda just left him there and servants began robbing the household. When they finally decided to bury him, his tomb was too small for his body, which made onlookers have to kinda cram his body in which caused it to burst and release a horrible odor.

@awesomehpt8938 16 дней назад

I think it was ser pounce

@thing_under_the_stairs 16 дней назад

Cats are clever, sneaky little murderbeasts... and nobody ever suspects the kitten!

@JaceMorley 16 дней назад

The Pounce that was Promised!

@Klongu_Da_Bongu 16 дней назад

Hodor = Hodor = Hodor = ...Hodor Those who know, know.

@clownpendotfart 15 дней назад

Ser Pounce at least hadn't died weeks before Tywin.

@astrinymris9953 15 дней назад

But if it were Ser Pounce, he'd have knocked the vial off the edge of the table after poisoning them.

@gottenm9106 15 дней назад

Plus the Widow's blood fits with the story since Ellia died a widow (her husband already died) and Tywin was responsible for her death, makes him covered in her blood, aka widow's blood

@MissScarletTanager 16 дней назад

My headcanon is that it was both. Varys' little birds told him about Oberyn's goal ("Let them", etc.). Varys steals the poison from Pycelle (He knows the secrets of the Red Keep, and specifically how to sneak into Pycelle's chambers. Oberyn, sneaky as he is, wouldn't know these things). Varys provides the poison to someone he *knows* will use it properly and would be the obvious culprit should someone need to take the fall (Oberyn, who probably knew Varys was playing him but didn't care because it fit his goals anyway). Shenanigans occur, Tywin is poisoned, likely slowly over a period of time to as to not raise suspicion. But then Littlefinger and Olenna orchestrates Joffrey's death, leading to Oberyn dying against the Mountain. Now Tywin is poisoned to soon to die from it, but Varys now lacks a fall guy for the inevitable death. In enters Tyrion, freshly "convicted" of murdering a king already and who has multiple Everest-sized grudges against his father, many of which are well known. All he had to do was point Tyrion in Tywin's direction-ish, and even if Tyrion *hadn't* killed Tywin, he was now set up to at *least* take the fall for the poisoning (which, of course, never ended up being needed because gut-crossbow). Varys gets exactly what he wants on all counts (pissed off Martells, a dead Tywin with no possible means of tracing it back to him, and Tyrion heading to Aegon).

@clownpendotfart 15 дней назад

"Slowly over a period of time"? Tywin died weeks after Oberyn was killed, with nobody noticing Tywin was poisoned over all that time. So Tywin certainly wasn't "soon to die from it". And how would Tyrion take a fall for poisoning Tywin AFTER he's incarcerated for poisoning Joffrey? Is anyone going to believe that Tywin was just accepting drinks from his convicted regicide son?

@ernestcline2868 16 дней назад

Varys may have simply ensured Oberyn had access to the poison he needed without directing the poisoning himself.

@HAL-cp4mt 16 дней назад

Video idea: who betrayed Arianne Martell plans to queen Marcella to her father ?

@j-rey- 16 дней назад

I'm not sure if you've seen it, but Preston Jacobs has a good video about it. I think it's called "A Vow for Myrcella." He theorizes it was likely Drey, as he got the mildest punishment (sent to the Free City of Norvos for three years, to join the service of Doran's estranged wife), Myrcella didn't trust him (he said that his friends call him "Drey," but she said that he is not her friend), and he had always wanted to marry Arianne, as did his older brother, head of house Dalt, and Knight of Lemonwood, Deziel Dalt. That last part means he not only thinks she's attractive, but also wants some of the power that comes with marrying her. I.e., for him, she is not JUST a friend. The Dalts of Lemonwood escorted Oberyn to King's Landing and are loyal to Sunspear. Arianne, while locked in her tower, thinks that Deziel Dalt was too loyal to Doran to fight for her, conveniently not thinking the same thing about Drey. However, when Areo Hotah stepped out of the riverboat at their destination, Drey was the first person to drop his weapons and told everyone that it was probably best to yield. Lastly: Darkstar. In my opinion, Darkstar is a red herring, and too obviously exposited as untrustworthy and morally ambiguous for GRRM to make him the secret mole. That would be kind of anticlimactic to introduce a bitter, cruel, and untrustworthy edgelord, only to have him betray Arianne in the same chapter. Another thing to note about Darkstar is that he may not have actually been the one to slash Myrcella's face. I forgot the logistics, but I think Drey was also near her, and everyone's eyes were on Arys Oakheart and Areo Hotah when Myrcella was slashed. It could have been that Drey pulled a knife and attacked Myrcella, then Darkstar, clearly aware that something was really off with the situation, high-tailed it out of there. I don't see why Darkstar would attack Myrcella in the first place, and it was foreshadowed that Myrcella didn't trust Drey, so their relationship already had some underlying conflict. In short, exposing the conspiracy would get him in the good graces of Doran, possibly leading to Arianne's hand in marriage or a choice seat and lands to become the Lord of, since he will likely inherit nothing otherwise.

@brucewayne799 12 дней назад

It was me

@jacobbronsky464 16 дней назад

Ah, but in that fateful meeting, we know who is the greatest mastermind. It seems pretty obvious to me that Mace saw an opportunity and took it. The known master of poisons, harbouring a grudge obvious to all ? Oberyn was brazen, but no fool. No, the king of long cons poisoned Tywin.

@cardenova 16 дней назад

Lol yes

@clownpendotfart 15 дней назад

Mace couldn't have poisoned Tywin that early, because Tywin lived for such a long time later without anyone noticing he was poisoned.

@Chrispy1990ful 15 дней назад

It's very clear that Tywin was poisoned with widows blood. But it wasn't Oberyn who poisoned him. It was Shae. Oberyn didn't have the kind of access to steal it. Shae however had been working as a maid. She could have stolen it herself or asked one of the other staff to do it. Oberyn also didn't have a way of slipping poison passed Tywins cup bearer. Whereas when we see Shae with him there is food and wine around for them. She likely came to Tywin after he arrested Tyrion to offer her services as a ruse to get access to him. Plenty of people had motive. Only Shae had motive, means, and the opportunity to do it.

@renshiwu305 14 дней назад

"Poison's a woman's weapon. Men kill with steel." - The Hound Oberyn poisoned the Mountain, but he did so via the blade of a longspear. The Hound's observation technically holds about a man's method of killing another man in the case of Oberyn Martell. What woman could be in the picture, though? Olenna Tyrell, Taena of Myr (who testified, falsely, in Tyrion's trial), Cersei (and what a shocker that would be), or Shae. Grand Maester Pycelle told the world what Widow's Blood can do. Anyone present in the throne room for the trial would've heard about the lethality of the poison from Pycelle's own mouth. I don't know if a Westerosi witness is required to stand outside of the court before testifying, but, if Shae had been in the courtroom, she would have been aware of Widow's Blood. Tywin had a penchant for prostitutes. He was previously the Hand of the King during the reign of Aerys II. Tyrion, as acting Hand, discovered a secret tunnel built by a previous Hand, passing underground and connecting Chataya's brothel with a stable some three blocks away. Shae, a prostitute, ingratiated herself with Tywin and then poisoned him to, one, get revenge on Tywin for letting Tyrion be under a sentence of execution, and, two, lay the groundwork for Tyrion's jailbreak. She could have gotten the Widow's Blood out of Pycelle's storeroom by ingratiating herself with him (Pycelle seems to be a horndog like Tywin).

@troperhghar9898 16 дней назад

If Oberon wanted to poison tywin why didn't he bring the widows blood with him, rather then steal it from measter pysell hoping he had a good poison?

@nonfiction9849 16 дней назад

This is my thought, he has all his own poisons. He doesn’t need to steal any from Pycelle.

@GreenMMs100 16 дней назад

Are we absolutely certain that varys didnt just give oberyn the poison. He is a sneaky little fella, he couls have stolen it from pycells poison cabinet, disguised himself and gone to see oberyn in secret; explained that he knew what oberyns intentions were and supplied him with the means to carry them out. It get varys what he wants without implicating himself, and directing tyrion to twins room was the final nail in the coffin. All loose ends tied off and he leaves across the narrow sea with tyrion

@clownpendotfart 15 дней назад

Varys never relies on any highborn people to carry out assassinations for him. And Oberyn couldn't have done it, because he died weeks before Tywin without anyone noticing Tywin was poisoned.

@kb4903 16 дней назад

Doran Martel’s plan- wait over a decade, make an alliance with enemy and then serve on the council together. Brilliant. Oh and send your son across the world to try to marry a queen. lol.

@kobarsos82 16 дней назад

Its actually annoying in the show, that they don't show more proof of what had happened with Tywin and Oberyn's poison. While its understandable they might not want to take anything away from Tyrion's choice, its definitely doing Oberyn dirty in all of this. RIP, regardless. Thanks for the great video.

@clownpendotfart 15 дней назад

Oberyn couldn't have poisoned Tywin, because Tywin lived weeks after Oberyn died without anyone noticing Tywin was poisoned. It's crackpot theorists who are trying to take something away from Tyrion by ignoring the obvious fact that he killed Tywin and a principle of literary parsimony would go against Tywin already having been fatally poisoned (which nobody in the subsequent books appears to believe).

@CosmicCleric 11 дней назад

@@clownpendotfart "because Tywin lived weeks after Oberyn died" Has this been explicitly stated in the novels/series? Also, how long does it take the Widow's poison to work, has that been stated explicitly?

@clownpendotfart 11 дней назад

@@CosmicCleric Search for "ASOIAF Timeline - Vandal Proof" on Google Docs. The note for Tyrion's last chapter of A Storm of Swords says "This is probably even later. Jaime says that Tyrion's beheading has been scheduled for tomorrow. Tyrion's voice has grown "hoarse from disuse." In Dorne there's at least a fortnight between news of Oberyn's death and news of Tywin's death." What poison acts like a time-delayed bomb, being unnoticed for weeks until later it kills someone? The claim is that Widows Wail stops people from defecating, but if Tywin had been experiencing that for weeks, he surely would have noticed and would be consulting with someone like Pycelle about it rather than having Shae waiting in his bed for him to get back from the privy.

@TheLooftWaffe 16 дней назад

Oberyn being in town is the PERFECT cover for someone else poisoning Tywin. One thing you didn’t mention is how Doran (and presumably Oberyn) allude to an even more complete takedown of the Lannisters than merely killing Tywin. The Martells could have found a quieter way to poison Tywin any time if all they cared about was killing him… so why risk Oberyn going to kings landing just to do that, more than a decade later?. I think Oberyn killing Tywin was ultimately their plan but not before the Lannisters were publicly humiliated… seems unlikely that Oberyn would kill Tywin before he got the confession from the Mountain. But, Oberyn merely being in town creates a perfect cover story for someone else to poison Tywin, and then we have Shae spending quality time in Tywins bedroom. I maintain it was Varys, who thought he had one great cover story with Oberyn until he lucked into an even cleaner one with Tyrion.

@jesusyvictoria 16 дней назад

That makes sense and also would explain why Shae was with Tywin

@VodkaHellstorm 15 дней назад

I wonder if the strangeness of the corpse could point to Qyburn having a go at bringing Tywin back, or just generally messing with his body.

@benandrovich112 16 дней назад

Robert, I love these videos!! Your theories, voice and storytelling are top notch! Keep up the great work!

@robgillies2576 16 дней назад

Is the name of the poison also a clue, adding an element of poetic vengeance? Widow’s Blood - with Elia being a widow when she was murdered following Rhaegar’s death?

@giggityguy 16 дней назад

Here's the follow-up question: if someone HAD poisoned Tywin, what was their endgame? If Tywin had died of poison and not being shot, all suspicion would likely have immediately fallen on Oberyn. After all, those in the know would have been able to discover all that we know. Oberyn had means, motive, and opportunity, and seems the obvious suspect considering his reputation as a poisoner and his loud announcements of his intention to get revenge. So whether Oberyn poisoned Tywin or someone else did, the outcome is that it would clearly LOOK like Oberyn did. This would immediately inflame tensions between the Lannisters and the Martells, and by extension, between the crown and all of Dorne. It would likely draw Dorne into diplomatic or military conflict with the Lannisters, something that Oberyn wanted but Doran did not. It could have easily forced Doran's hand, if only in defense. So who benefits from Dorne jumping in? Oberyn, since he's wanted war for years, and he might even have a chance to push Doran aside if he appears too reluctant to fight. Varys, since he doesn't want competent Lannisters running the kingdoms. And in a roundabout way, the Tyrells, since while they're technically allied to the Lannisters, Tywin's death and a war with Dorne would weaken Lannister rule and occupy the Lannister army, allowing the Tyrells to step into the stronger position.

@laser8389 16 дней назад

The idea that it was a long-acting poison that replicates extreme but otherwise natural symptoms would make it kind of tricky to say conclusively that it was poison. Sure, Maester Pycelle absolutely knew that Widow's Blood kills in this way and may have been able to point out both that his was missing and that a known poisoner and enemy of Tywin's had come to the city at just the right time, and this may have been enough to bring scrutiny, but there's no slam-dunk CSI evidence here. Hell, just knowing about the poison and admitting to having had some but it's no longer there could have put suspicion on Pycelle, especially since Cersei was getting even more paranoid by that time and no longer considered Pycelle useful. Not to say that looking at the warmonger angle is invalid, it's exactly what's happening in several other storylines.

@R0CKDRIG0 16 дней назад

Does Oberyn want full on war though? Why wouldn't he stop when the 3 men responsible were dead?

@clownpendotfart 15 дней назад

The problem is that, as much as Varys might want to, he can't blame Oberyn because he's been dead for too long.

@DoakFelix-qr8uw 15 дней назад

Just as Tywin did not kill Elia nor her children, but only gave the orders, so did Oberyn kill Tywin. The deed was performed by Shae a.k.a. Sarella sand, Oberyn’s neice. One of his underlings had already poisoned Tyrion’s cream sauce for the pie, but Joffrey ate it, and died before the Tyrells could even drop the poison into his wine.

@BionicIguana 16 дней назад

Tywin's stinky corpse is probably a Dostoevsky reference, The Brothers Karamazov

@usucktoo 16 дней назад

Great video to start playing while having dinner.

@jesusyvictoria 16 дней назад

Great video. I am covinced now that someone poisoned Tywin and he was going to die as described by Pycelle. However, I am not convinced it was Oberyn. As you said, Varys knew about Oberyn plans and that he would probably take the blame. Varys had a relationship with Shae and was supposed to help her to get away, so he could have given her a last job, and she would have definitely had the opportunity to poison Tywin, more so than Oberyn. And last, when Oberyn dies, Tywin has already been poisoned and Tyrion is rotting in a cell, Varys knows that the blame may be on him now if Tywin dies, so that would explain why he wants Tyrion to kill his father to cover him up. I am not saying it's definitely Varys, but it makes more sense being Varys in my opinion.

@clownpendotfart 15 дней назад

Oberyn can't take the blame because he'd been dead for weeks without anyone noticing Tywin was poisoned.

@MrKguy97 15 дней назад

One possible connection this video doesn't fully cover is that Varys is (probably) partially in league with Doran (the latter being tipped off about Cersei's plan to ambush Trystane from someone), and thus also with Oberyn by extension. They don't have to be entirely separate forces of subterfuge. Why else would Oberyn be so open and nonchalant about his vengeance against Tywin, if he didn't arrive informed enough to know that Varys is an ally? The Martells themselves should have no independent influence in King's Landing either as they've been separated from all of the politicking there. Additionally, how easily would Oberyn really be able to steal a poison right under the castle's nose? His movements were probably tracked throughout the castle and Tywin wasn't just going to give him an unwatched waltz around without knowing anything, unless of course Tywin fully and individually trusted in Varys to do so. Not to mention Oberyn is very recognizable, while Varys is a master of disguise. Varys is the more likely option to have stolen it or enabled the theft so then Oberyn could do the rest. Meanwhile, Doran has been secretly trying to marry Martells to Targaryens in exile. He's known their locations, kept the secret of these attempts, and all with Varys probably being aware. Varys being the most aware makes him the best person to facilitate these dealings which increases the likelihood of his involvement in the poisoning. The timing also lines up with Doran sending Quentyn to Essos. If war broke out between the Crown and Dorne because they got implicated in Tywin's death, it was time to bring Dany (and her army) into the fold.

@Krisliet 16 дней назад

It even makes sense narratively. It's a classic vengeance story: man sets out on getting revenge by killing the people who wrong him and, in the end, he gets his revenge, but loses his life for it. If Tywin dies with Oberyn having no influence in it, then it breaks the classical trope and makes Oberyn travel look more like a fail.

@samhobbs9116 16 дней назад

Everything else done by Dorne was a fail why not this one?

@pankratos5017 16 дней назад

Then why would Oberyn steal the poison instead of bringing his own? The theft would have been high-risk, the missing poison noticed, and it could easily lead back to him.

@clownpendotfart 15 дней назад

What are you talking about? Tyrion is explicitly the one who killed Tywin, weeks after Oberyn died. The (incorrect) theory is this video is that Tywin would have died anyway in a counterfactual where Tyrion didn't kill him, but Oberyn still has no influence in the actual timeline where Tyrion kills him.

@Kubinda12345 16 дней назад

The only problem with this theory is that Tywin wasn't stupid and he knew Oberyn's reputation as well so he would've been extra careful about drinking or eating something around Oberyn.

@saraa.4295 16 дней назад

They did have breakfast together..and tywin surely drank at the wedding, where oberyn was. Tywin was smart, but he believed his own hype. He believed that everyone was afraid of him.

@nont18411 16 дней назад

Tywin is smart but he’s not that smart

@tommonk7651 16 дней назад

Oberyn is one of my favorite characters. His time was too short....

@culinahortus1231 16 дней назад

Maybe Olenna. She has already made allusions to the transit of the elderly in front of Tyrion and if we rewatch the series, she chats with Tywin telling him to appreciate at least something before his death (about Joeffrey's marriage). How would Tywin's death be interesting to her? Well Tywin more or less forced him to marry one of his grandsons to Cersei (Loras in the series, but in the books, she has others). By killing Tywin, she gets rid of the true lion, which leaves room for her granddaughter to rule via her influence over Tommen, put her son Mace Tyrell as Hand of the King and annul the marriage with Cersei, to marry one of his grandsons to Sansa. Which would result in House Tyrell ruling the western lands and the north in the shadows.

@toms169 16 дней назад

There is also the matter of timing that you didn‘t address. Tywin dying from poison while Oberyn (a vengeful master of poisons) is in the city makes it too obvious that Oberyn did it, which would put him and probably all of his family in danger. Therefore, in my opinion, Oberyn didn‘t resort to poisoning Tywin until he had resolved to stand for Tyrion in the trial by combat. Even if he was confident in his abilities, he will have known that there was no guarantee that he could beat the Mountain. So he poisoned Tywin before the trial, just in case he lost, to make sure he got his revenge. It‘s the same reason he laced his weapons in poison: he knew that he only had to cut the Mountain once and vengeance would be his, even if the Mountain were to beat him.

@clownpendotfart 15 дней назад

That timing doesn't work either. Tywin lived for weeks afterward with nobody noticing he was poisoned. You'd have to push the timing even later, well after Oberyn died.

@toms169 15 дней назад

@@clownpendotfart Fair point. But we don‘t really know how long the poison takes to take effect, do we?

@clownpendotfart 15 дней назад

@@toms169 What poison is unnoticeable for weeks, but later causes death? And this is not a mater of continually being poisoned with small doses, there must be no additional poisoning in between the last time Oberyn interacted with Tywin and Tywin's death.

@toms169 15 дней назад

@@clownpendotfart Yes, such poisons exist: thallium, aconitine, ricin, …

@ashelred 16 дней назад

The one problem with this theory is that Tywin knew that Oberyn wanted to kill him and was a master of poisons,so he would have been careful around Oberyn. Varys had his little birds to introduce the poison into something Tywin consumed.

@clownpendotfart 15 дней назад

And Varys was alive during the weeks between Oberyn's death and Tywin's, so if he did poison Tywin he could have done so much later so that nobody had time to notice.

@KevinHwoarang 16 дней назад

In the books most likely, but I don't think Oberyn himself poisoned him, I believe it was Oberyn's hidden dagger: Shae. I truly believe Shae is Sarella

@alowishusdavander7804 16 дней назад

To add to @Otsego - I would think that Oberyn would have brought his own chest full of poisons & party favors and not need to steal anything... Thats what makes me think its not Oberyn

@MacAttack001 16 дней назад

Amazing video. Your calculation are flawless. Well done! :)

@BlondeBarbarian 16 дней назад

One thing I don't quite understand: Why would Oberyn need to _steal_ the widow's blood? Wouldn't he have brought the poison with him? Hell, we KNOW he brought _some_ kind of poison because he used it on the Mountain. So why not just bring the poison with him and avoid leaving a trail that leads back to him? I find it hard to believe that Oberyn has been planning this for so long only for him to forget to bring enough poison to do the job. Also, how could he have known Pycelle would even have the poison he needs? The whole thing doesn't add up imo

@laser8389 16 дней назад

I'm 100% with you on this. I was honestly trying to come up with some reason that stealing the poison would be less suspicious or easier, but I can't make it work. The closest I can figure is that he used up what he had with him on Tywin and had to sneak some from Pycelle for The Mountain, but even then it's thin.

@ARandomGuy24 15 дней назад

If it was Oberyn I think it only makes sense that Varys stole it then gave it to Oberon setting up an obvious fall guy in case things go wrong. In case Oberon stuffed it up somehow he tells Tyrion how to get to Tywin's quarters to try to kill him then lets Tyrion take his shot. He sets up multiple contingencies in case things go wrong all the while setting up fall guys to take the blame. Probably had one of his little birds waiting to kill Tywin then frame Tyrion if he didn't have the heart to go through with it.

@clownpendotfart 15 дней назад

@@ARandomGuy24 Varys never relies on any highborn people to carry out assassinations for him. And Oberyn couldn't have done it, because he died weeks before Tywin without anyone noticing Tywin was poisoned.

@ShadeoftheEvening 11 дней назад

I love the way Brits say "was sat" etc. Always great videos Robert. I got my Mom A World of Ice and Fire and A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms for her birthday. And send her ALL of your videos🖤🐉🐦‍⬛ THANK YOU

@astrinymris9953 15 дней назад

There's only one problem with your theory: *If Tyrion knew that shooting Tywin would shorten his suffering, why would he do it?* Tyrion hated his family with a burning passion by then, so you'd think the thought of a slow. agonizing, humiliating death for Tywin would have thrilled him. Yes, Tyrion wanted a clue about where to look for Tysha, but he had to realize the chances of Tywin remembering anything about the movements of someone who was a nonentity to him a decade later was marginal, if he'd even taken enough interest in her fate to notice. And the chances of Tywin being willing to tell Tyrion if he had known are miniscule. No, Tyrion came to kill Tywin, full stop. Though I do have a theory about who actually administered the poison to Tywin. I mean, yes the man dined with Oberyn, but I'm sure that Tywin, knowing that the Red Viper hated him with a passion, would have been very careful to watch his food and drink like a hawk. So how did Oberyn poison Tywin? Simple- he bribed Shae to do it! Shae probably had no more love for Tywin than she had for Tyrion. She also knew that her knowing the truth about Tyrion's actual innocence might well result in her disappearing after Tywin tired of her. And if she hadn't realized that on her own, Oberyn would have helpfully pointed it out to her. Gaining a slew of money for poisoning Tywin while saving her own posterior... of course Shae would do it. That's my headcanon. and I'm stickin' to it. 😉

@Cdre_Satori 16 дней назад

I think the only reason for Varys to tell Tyrion where to find his dying father would be to cover his tracks after he poisoned Tywin. Because if Tywin got worse after Oberyn is dead then it couldn't have been Oberyn and if he knew Tywin was dying well why not tell Tyrion. He either didn't know Tywin was poisoned and was moving to plan B after Oberyn or he did it himself and it was better to let Tyrion take the blame than dornish

@jimihendrix23456 15 дней назад

I disagree. For someone like Varys, having more layers of obfuscation pointing away from him can only help. Less likely to be caught if more people can be suspected at the different stages of the ordeal

@clownpendotfart 15 дней назад

Finally someone who realizes it couldn't have been Oberyn if it happens that long after Oberyn's death.

@natie3322 16 дней назад

Shae did it. She was Oberons daughter, a Sand Snake.

@richardtabor8686 16 дней назад

OMG, I forgot I wanted to know what you thought about this idea. Perfect timing. Ty for the content.

@yggdrasil2 16 дней назад

Don't forget the fact that Shae actually fell asleep while Tywin was on the shitter.

@Cecil_Harvey 16 дней назад

Joanna poisoned Tywin 20 years ago. That’s why he’s been constipated all the time and has jokes made about him taking so long on the bathroom. Where does all the Lannisters’ gold come from? Tywin shits it out. That’s why he spends so long in the privy.

@justin1730 13 дней назад

If Oberyn had poisoned Tywin, why would he care about the Mountain confessing? There would be no need for Tywin to stand trial because he was a dead man walking. As a self-described bloodthirsty man, why would he use a poisoned spear to fight the Mountain, but kill Tywin by presumably poisoning his drink? My guess is that Varys planned it and Shae carried it out by seducing Tywin.

@erikanders3343 16 дней назад

Possibility not explored very often is the queen of Thorns. She has a lot of motivation for getting rid of Tiwin. One with him gone she could easily have Marjorie annul the wedding to cerci. Freeing her house to have a future. I could also see you embarrass doing the same or assisting.

@ricoc9492 16 дней назад

Hi Robert, where did your playlist of Robert, Rhaegar, Lyanna go? I loved those videos

@NukeMarine 16 дней назад

You missed one bit in that Tyrion gathered a poisoned mushrooms at Illyrio's manse at first to commit suicide if captured, until using them to kill overseer Nurse. Some could say this points to Tyrion potentially poisoning Tywin, but Tyrion is a POV and gives no thought to that aspect. But, Tyrion never tells us in his thoughts that he poisoned Nurse. He just mentions taking joy in feeding Nurse the mushroom meal. Bit like Cersei or Jaime are prime candidates to hiring the cat's paw, but their POV removes them as suspects to the readers. But, whose POV were we in when discussion about Joffrey being the one to send the cat's paw pops up? Only Tyrion and Jaime ponder on the matter leaving Cersei still suspect. Given Cersei never ponders on what readers accept as her killing her best friend by pushing her down the well, it's easy to think that Cersei would not ponder on sending a failed assassin especially after Bran was "killed" in A Clash of Kings.

@laser8389 16 дней назад

If Tyrion had poisoned Tywin, why shoot him?

@BlueAversion 14 дней назад

I like that although Oberyn back himself to win the duel with Gregor, he also made a back up plan in case he lost. He covered is blade with a refined poison so that if he so much a scratched Gregor in the fight then Gregor was as a good as dead. And I believe the book said it was refined in a way that it would kill Gregor painfully and slowly. Pretty nasty.

@aidenowen9221 15 дней назад

It makes sense that Oberyn want to kill Tywin. But, would he have stolen the poison which could easily be discovered and when Pycelle discovers he was indeed poisoned all fingers would point at Oberyn. He was vengeful but he wasn't stupid, I think he would have, at least, made his own poison, he is a half-maester after all or used a lesser known more subtle poison.

@sfrink1425 16 дней назад

Maybe Varys supplied the poison to Oberyn?

@clownpendotfart 15 дней назад

No, Oberyn died weeks before Tywin, and nobody noticed Tywin was poisoned over that time period. Theories blaming Oberyn just do not work at all.

@MariaVosa 15 дней назад

The biggest problem with the Oberyn theory is the theft of Widow's Blood from the Grand Maester. Why would an expert like Oberyn, who clearly came prepared both with his own stash and the intent of killing Tywin, need to pilfer from the Maester? I'd say it is far more likely that someone used Oberyn's presence as a convenient way of poisoning The Hand, knowing that suspicion would inevitably fall on Oberyn. I also wonder if we know how quickly the poison works? Shae was present and could have done the deed, on assignment from someone (Varys, Littlefinger?).

@clownpendotfart 15 дней назад

No, the biggest problem is the timing. Oberyn died weeks before Tywin, without anyone noticing Tywin was poisoned over all that time.

@tempertempernow 16 дней назад

I have been WAITING for you to make this for soooo long

@annettestephens534 15 дней назад

this is a redo of an older video

@morgant6660 16 дней назад

If he went to Kings Landing to poison Tywin, he would have brought his own poison. To be sure of having access and to cover his tracks, he didn't steal poison to use on The Mountain, so why would he for Tywin. I think the fact that the poison is missing makes it likely to be an inside job

@srenkibsgaard9136 16 дней назад

I find the spider the most likely candidate. First tywin. Then his brother kevin....

@daniell1483 16 дней назад

I question the idea that Tywin ordered the death of Elia. Tywin in a frank conversation with Tyrion denies the blame, only admitting that he never told Gregor to not kill Elia. And it makes sense that Gregor and Amory slew Elia; having not been told to leave Elia alone, Gregor would have seen her as fair game. This makes sense: Gregor and Amory's mission was to kill the children of Rhaegar, nothing more. And Gregor later admits in the trial by battle that he did kill Elia to stop her screaming, something we know set Gregor off at least one other time with Pia, knocking out her teeth.

@clownpendotfart 15 дней назад

I think that's correct, but irrelevant. Ordering the death of her children basically implies her death unless she's separated and deliberately taken as a living hostage (which is not an order he gave, even though it would benefit Robert's regime to have leverage against the Martells).

@daniell1483 15 дней назад

@@clownpendotfart Being devil's advocate for a second, I suspect Tywin wanted Elia alive but unharmed for the very reason you raise: Elia would have been the perfect hostage until Dorne got on board with the new Baratheon regime. However Tywin communicated the mission to Gregor and Amory, the responsibility ultimately rests with Tywin as they were his vassals.

@clownpendotfart 15 дней назад

@@daniell1483 I think the issue is that while it would be good for Robert's regime, that's not the same as Tywin. Tywin hadn't yet come to any arrangement with Robert, and wouldn't necessarily expect any benefit of that himself. The more important thing was to decisively break with the Targaryens, and adding infanticide to his sack of the city helped that more than a hostage would. A hostage who could testify about who specifically broke in and killed her children is a headache for him.

@daniell1483 15 дней назад

@@clownpendotfart I don't deny it would be a headache for Robert; that's not the point. Elia had huge value as a political prisoner. If Tywin had her as a hostage, he could have come into Robert's court with one hell of a bargining chip that would force the most rebellious province into compliance with the new order - Robert's order. Elia's death benefited nobody and gave Dorne a reason to burn with revenge for several years. And both of the Martel princes specifically cite Elia's death as a reason to NOT partner with the present day Lannister-Tyrell order. That says nothing about the various plots this incentivized for the Martells (raising Dorne for Viserys, the supposed marriage pact regardless of its validity, etc.).

@jackbelmont4389 14 дней назад

Not only that, but of all the poisons qyburn mentions, we get a literal description of widow's blood

@kylemarkloff4451 15 дней назад

Im fairly certain he got shot with a crossbow while pooping... Everybody poops without being poisoned, not everything is a conspiracy.

@kirby7294 16 дней назад

I just can't see Oberyn Martell, the man who died because his desire for a public display of revenge got the better of him, poisoning Tywin. It doesn't feel like enough of a message. He certainly had the motive and means, but it just doesn't fit his character. In this instance, that is. I can't imagine he would deny himself the satisfaction of a more public killing. If he wanted to kill Tywin in secret, he had plenty of chances and a man as crafty as he is, he would've gotten away with it. He wanted to send a message with his revenge against the Lannisters. Poisoning Tywin wouldn't achieve that.

@clownpendotfart 15 дней назад

Yes, he wanted "justice", not secret revenge.

@kirby7294 15 дней назад

@clownpendotfart He wanted revenge, but look at everything he did for it. He is open about his desire for revenge and he openly tells the Lannister's that it is coming. It doesn't make sense for him to want public displays of revenge just to poison Tywin in secret. And yes, he used his misguided sense of "justice" to achieve it and it got him killed.

@ash072 16 дней назад

Your work is top notch!

@apacalypsagon3758 15 дней назад

Oh an oldie but a goodie.

@ZombieOfBerlin 14 дней назад

Is this a re-upload? I swear, I watched that video before and then suddenly it had vanished.

@drpiv 16 дней назад

Oberyn was one of the most memorable characters.

@JaalKiriam 16 дней назад

I think you've missed Martin's point when it comes to Oberyn having the victory. You are right when you say that, if only Oberyn had stayed clear of the Mountain... I would suggest, though, that he and Tyrion are mirrors of each other in this. The idea that Tywin would have died without Tyrion's self-dooming actions is completely right, but that doesn't mean that Tyrion was actually mercy-killing his father. It means that, like Oberyn, Tyrion ruined his own victory by following his heart in this matter. Tywin's greatest desire at this point was for his legacy, both as a man and for his family. How would he have felt to die in agony over several days (if not weeks) while his legacy withered without his presence to micromanage this new king. He would have lived long enough to see his grandson fall under the sway of, if not overt enemies, at least not-friends. He would have surely known who had really killed him and why and that it was, ultimately, his own fault. Instead he died as a martyr to an evil aberration of a son (in the public's eyes, at least) and the crumbling of his legacy was ascribed to unworthy successors rather than his own evil coming home to roost.

@clownpendotfart 15 дней назад

The idea that Tywin would have died if not for Tyrion is not "completely right". Nobody thought Tywin was poisoned at the time, and this was weeks after Oberyn's death.

@user-cr3ti1vj6f 13 дней назад

Oberyn knew that even if he wins the duel against the Mountain, the situation would be so awkward that he could likely never sit next to Tywin again, so he had to poison him beforehand.

@MrNicoJac 11 дней назад

Two questions remain: - how did Oberyn steal the poison from Pycelle? (how did he know where to look?) - how much time was there between Oberyn dying and Tywin dying? (also: why would he be sloppy enough to let it become known that a poison was stolen; why not at least replace it with a vial that has the same color/contents, so that it would _only_ be found out if someone went looking _very carefully_ for it?)

@2ndMess 3 дня назад

As someone who hasn't yet read the books and happened to stumble upon this, it certainly clears up why Tywin and Cersei wanted Tyrion dead. He was indirectly responsible for Joffrey's demise ..and Marcella..and ultimately the Lannister dynasty. Not exactly being a team player, was he, inviting this ruin upon them all?

@stefanogiannaccini3258 16 дней назад

Literally my first thought, when I read in the book the state of Big T's body: he was poisoned. By whom? Oberyn.

@clownpendotfart 15 дней назад

Couldn't have been. Oberyn died weeks earlier, and nobody noticed Tywin was poisoned over all that time.

@josephmort4039 16 дней назад

Everyone poops. We don't only poop when people poison us.

@whitepeter619 16 дней назад

...so the body basically evaporating in front of people??

@josephmort4039 16 дней назад

@@whitepeter619 Everyone decays too. And Doran and Oberyn had plans for killing Tywin. Slipping him some poison so he died in a few days would've been far too easy for him to die.

@whitepeter619 16 дней назад

@josephmort4039 yeah, except no other character started smoking and melting through the gaps of their armor the day after they died, especially from a crossbow bolt, but ok.

@laser8389 16 дней назад

It's the lack of poop that was the work of the poison. The pooping was from the crossbow bolt.

@whitepeter619 16 дней назад

@@laser8389 the crossbow bolt, made him start melting?? 🤔

@seanseamands 15 дней назад

I just watched this same topic from Alt shift X last night. His video was from 6ish years ago tho

@msc8090 16 дней назад

11:15 I think you leave out the one other (for me) realistic suspect: Olenna, or more broadly, the Tyrells. Tyrion is doomed at this point and killing Tywin gets them rid of the one capable Lannister still around. They are known to get rid of their enemies using poison (which ist, btw. afaik called "a woman's weapon") and now a known poison master arrives in the city? Perfect alibi! Tbh I do think it was Oberyn, however the Tyrells had almost as much motive, opportunity and capability of getting rid of him.

@clownpendotfart 15 дней назад

It couldn't have been Oberyn. He died weeks before Tywin, and nobody noticed Tywin was poisoned over all that time.

@kurtismoore6700 2 дня назад

@@clownpendotfartbro you’ve replied to nearly every comment give it a break

@tiredhippo82 16 дней назад

Could littlefinger have done it? I know there’s not loads of evidence, but he did craft a plan to kill joffery with poison (that was stolen from pycelles store). He does like chaos, did have some issues with cersi and maybe thought it was time to damage the lannisters. Plus Tywin was getting in the way of the Tyrell’s plans so maybe they were involved as well. For the record I don’t especially believe this, but I think it’s about as likely as varys

@Jazzinthedark84 16 дней назад

Me: Ah finally, a video where Robert won't butcher the pronunciation of "Viserys" Me at 15:03: oh for fuck's sake

@Warmaker01 13 дней назад

People spam, "The North Remembers" but forget the Dornish are just like that. Dorne is every bit as dangerous as anywhere in the Seven Kingdoms. It's the place that not even Aegon the Conqueror with this two sisters and three dragons could bring to heel by Fire & Blood. Dorne resisted alone and only joined the fold of the Seven Kingdoms with diplomacy and not force of arms.

@spyderdogg6248 16 дней назад

Tywin just ate some bad chicken

@Bjottis 13 дней назад

I think the description of the poison were just foreshadowing, a clever man would not count on stealing poison, he would bring it with him.

@twinsen1949 15 дней назад

After watching this I feel like it's almost obvious that Oberyn DID poison Tywin

@apstrike 16 дней назад

Oberyn failed to get vengeance, at least on Tywin personally. A noble secretly poisoning another noble for a public wrong isn't vengeance. Such vengeance has to be public. If his brother Doran doesn't know for sure whether Oberyn succeeded then he didn't succeed. Likewise Tyrion didn't commit a mercy killing. We obviously have his POV chapters afterwards and there's no thought of mercy, only guilt. Had Tyrian done a mercy killing then his mind would be full of failed self justifications for that course of action. He wouldn't just be wracked with guilt.

@thepunisher6674 16 дней назад

the theory is probbably wrong because it makes tyrions killing of his father less impactful and jaimes guilt for letting tyrion out to kill tywin making it a mercy instead of an act that was seen as incredibly sinful by westeros it takes away a large part of their feelings about themselves in feast and dance and is just overall lame it just makes a character who we already knew was reckless gengeful and impulsive seem reckless vengeful and impulsive.

@anthonycampos7417 10 дней назад

I completely agree but i feel the only thing thats bugging me is the order. Oberyn poisoned Tywin BEFORE he fought the mountain and tried to squeeze a confession out of the mountain and Tywin as he watched. But then again i guess it was a once in a lifetime opportunity to kill the moutain legally so why even pry dying men for a confession? I guess it was his own hubris and desired vocal vindication i guess?

@saraa.4295 16 дней назад

I assume he did.. There is quite some hinting at it in the text and it is within Oberyns character to take anything from Tywin he cherishes most..which is his dignity, his reputation, and if he were not shot he would have ended up vomiting shit...there is hardly a less dignified way to go! Question is: will it have sny significance in the story? Would it affect tyrion to learn from it? Or cercei? Or does george just enjoy to leave us with unsolved conspiracy theories just for funs sake?

@clownpendotfart 15 дней назад

Oberyn died weeks before Tywin. The Dornish don't hear about Tywin's death until a fortnight after Tywin. He's not to blame for such conspiracy theories, fans who ignore the timeline (and the parsimony of just Tyrion being responsible for killing Tywin) are.

@saraa.4295 15 дней назад

@@clownpendotfart why do you think there were weeks between the trial of combat and tyrion shooting tywin? We have no indication of that and it would be quite unusual to wait that long for an execution. Besides, death by closed bowels is a pretty slow death. But i think you misunderstood me about the conspiracy theories: i didn't mean Oberyn wanted them, but that george did ;)

@clownpendotfart 15 дней назад

@@saraa.4295 From the "ASOIAF Timeline - Vandal Proof" note on that last Tyrion chapter: "This is probably even later. Jaime says that Tyrion's beheading has been scheduled for tomorrow. Tyrion's voice has grown "hoarse from disuse." In Dorne there's at least a fortnight between news of Oberyn's death and news of Tywin's death."

@saraa.4295 15 дней назад

@@clownpendotfart yeah i just reread the last chapter of tyrion.. A voice goes hoarse if you don't speak for a few days... And a two week time lapse is not so surprising.. Elaria sand would make sure there is a raven but leave the capital with oberyn rather quick. But informing the dornish was probably more an afterthought after tywins death.. George is, as usual, pretty vague with time. And again..a slow poison might easily take a week or more to be lethal.

@clownpendotfart 15 дней назад

@@saraa.4295 It's not just "more than week to be lethal". Jon Arryn was known to be sick before he died. Nobody remembers that of Tywin. Nobody notes that he was absent from any duties or appeared unwell at all.

@ognjen89 14 дней назад

I think that the single fact that Tywin died on the privy proves to me that the poison was starting to take effect lol

@kolokoy9555 16 дней назад

Out of all the characters mentioned here, Shae was the one who got closest to Tywin.

@andyl7677 14 дней назад

The only thing that doesn't make sense it that the poison was stolen from Pycelle. Oberyn doesn't need to steal poison, he can make his own. The poison he used on the mountain wasn't stolen from anywhere, so why would he take the risk to steal it?

@sockmonkeyjg 15 дней назад

The irony of Tywin being full of sh*t is hilarious

@Mddle_Man 5 дней назад

Rather a long stretch attributing the missing poison from Pycelles store to Oberyn. The Grand Maester had already been restored to his position and stores before Oberyn arrived in KL