This videos covers one of the trickier sections of the NEC: Section 210.23. It answers the question of whether a dishwasher and disposal are allowed on the same circuit, and takes a deep dive through the rest of 210.23.
Thanks for the three hour rule explanation for continuous operation. I upgraded my built in non-plugged electric furnace air handler to a 5 ton from a 3.5 ton and it had a 100 amp breaker. We put a current meter on it and it read 82 amps on high. It is a 2 speed, 42/82 amps. The 2 amps is for the blower motor. We were uncertain about the definition of continuous load until I watched your video. The heater will never be on high for three straight hours.
This was by far one of the best 'code reviews' and descriptions, that isn't just a 'yes / no' but a good reading of it and a 'human' explanation that you can follow with out questioning you Ryan, it allows the viewer to say "Ahhhh I got you, and I understand" rather then the yes/no stuff. Thanks, now with a few screen shots I can tell other friends info..... we were chatting about it the other day because of a situation exactly the dishwasher and garbage disposer (👍) is each on their own 20 amp circuit, and they aren't even on the same tandem breaker. 😳 They are on 2 completely different tandem breakers 6A and 8A and the B's on each are 'spares'..... WTH????? So thanks for this and I shall be looking at more from you.👍
Ryan Jackson, I do want you to know every video you put out is Valuable. We can all learn code by studying but you add some extra support and info. Much Appreciated and God Bless!
RU-vid and you are mind readers...I'm examining our circuits after a breaker box rebuild and this is just what I needed to hear. Complete algorithm suggested.
Great video, I just went through the stuff when a customer asked to add a disposal to their island sink. They had a dedicated disposal at their main kitchen sink. I couldn't find a reason why you would need to pull a new circuit when the original could handle both loads
hey Ryan thanks for the awesome information very helpful on understanding codes ill be the first to say i have done the hp rating incorrect thanks for clearing that up
They should allow over breaker rated current for disposers so long as a momentary switch is used (you cannot leave the switch on and walk away). The device is not run long enough to heat the wires up even if running at the same time as the dishwasher.
Excellent content! It was Mike Holt suggesting the three way switch. 😀I’m studying for my Washington masters exam and was going thru my Mike Holt dvds on this section yesterday.
Well Done as Usual. The key is the branch circuit ONLY supplies the Dishwasher and Disposal and nothing else, such as lighting or plug and cord connected utilization equipment. Once it does then 210.23(A) through (D) kicks in...Well Explained as Usual Ryan.
I would LOVE to have Ryan on an episode of Coffee Hour. He brings amazing insights, and knowledge to our electrical industry. Huge supporter of Ryan and what he does. Sadly It's been hard to do any videos or podcasts lately as the Academy has me swamped but I think Ryan and myself will hook up eventually.
Ryan thanks for share your time and knowledges with us. Now referring to the disposer name plate in this case what would be the hp rating 3/4hp or 1hp?.
In my opinion, think it’s a good practice to always run a Multi wire or two separate circuits for the DW & Disposal, especially in new construction and major remodeling. This video really provides the rationale, both the DW and disposal are fixed, but are also replaced / upgraded over the years. Two circuits will protect the option to upgrade, without having to rewire @ some point in the future. However, for homes with one circuit this video makes it perfectly clear what you can do.
WOW! Blown away by your explanation. You know as a apprentice 15 years ago I remember dis this with my JW, but it was sweeped under. I recently I was in this very position of suppling a DW and disposal from a single circuit, I was uncertain of 100% code compliance but you cleared that up! Just curious what about a disposal and the light over the sink scenario? I remember that being called by inspectors multiple times in my career. Would love to hear your thoughts
Remember, he said, "210.23(A)(2) Equipment fastened in place (50%). The load must not exceed 50% of the circuit rating if lighting, portable equipment, or both are supplied on the same circuit." So a 10A disposal should be able to work on a 20A breaker with lights, presuming the lights aren't greater than 10A load. But I could be wrong. I'd go read 210.23 and see what it says.
@@icevariable9600 ... point taken, but the max load on a 20 amp breaker is 16 amps, although there is some allowance for start surge on a disposal. I take that to read 50% is the allowed max for those fixed appliances. There's still 6 amps left for a light fixture.... although your local inspector may frown on it. Perhaps there's an exception if the light WITH the other things is still under 50%?
You discussed UL rating for household appliances. How about commercial equipment? We are seeing a lot of equipment imported from overseas that are obviously not listed. For example, refrigeration equipment for walk in coolers etc. We always get asked if they need to be UL rated. As far as i checked, i do not see NEC requiring UL listing on those kind of equipment. What would your thoughts be on that? Sometimes these equipment will even require European voltages like 380 or 400 volts 3phase or 220-240v single phase line to neutral power. They will offer to sell a transformer to come along with it. It'd be great to see a video about tips and tricks for compliance. Your content and explanations are fantastic. Thank you.
I watched another code channel video on this topic, where the instructor said that some modern dishwashers could be considered a continuous load. I assume continuous load rules still apply to this scenario (2 fixed in place)
Thanks for the info. I do have a kind of related question because it is an appliance question. Would a refrigerator be considered a "fastened in place" appliance? It is not easily moved and most have an ice maker which is connected to water.
I would place a saw drawing 14 amps on #12 copper to a 20 amp breaker because it would be just my luck to get a call back that the high in rush motor current would trip a 15 amp breaker maybe once a year. We were taught the 125% rule that all motors even the ones that only run a few minutes a day should be on wires & a circuit at least 125% larger then nameplate amps. Some times like with air compressors had to supply a breaker or time delay fuse 150% higher then nameplate amps. Good to see another well produced vid from you. Also do not believe that the code rule for kitchen counter top receptacles having at least two 20 amp dedicated circuits. Now with protruding islands off a counter top think it should be at least 3 twenty amp circuits. Saw houses where they have a 4 slice toaster, 30 cup coffee pot, blender, counter top toaster oven etc.
Two small appliance branch circuits are just a minimum. It’s up to us to point this out and educate as early as possible in the building process, hopefully while still in the planning stage.
Hi Ryan great video as always, Table 210.21(B)(2) says for cord and plug 20A circuit max load is 16A, if the dishwasher and disposal are both cord and plug would this be true? Thanks again great work!!
Ok found out contractors ran 2 yellow romex to the dishwasher outlet and the tab is broken to make it two circuits (there is no line to a switch). Both romex just run to the attic and attach to the same 14-2 romex that is a 15 amp circuit. Is this some kind of trick to help pass an inspection? My dishwasher is LG and rated for 15 amps and my garbage disposal has a sticker on it that says it is 9.5 amps. Trying to get them to fix it...
Have to poke fun at hard working brillant Ryan but here goes. Heard of people coming out of the closet but never somebody coming out of a dishwasher. I always installed a dishwasher on thier own circuit breaker but now with combination AFCI/GFCI single pole circuit breakers costing close to $50 each would reconsider adding the garbage disposal to a single circuit. ( 12 guage copper NM on a 20 amp AFCI breaker. Dishwasher load calulation can be misleading. The motors in all the new dishwashers use less power then the heating element and believe the calculation should only use the 125% multiplyer for only the motor then add the ampere for the heating element. Heating element is purely 100% resitance load with 100% power factor and no locked rotor intush current like a motor.
Nice 👍 my question would it have to be AFCI / GFCI protected? We have different views of this in my region… I personally would think GFCI would not have to since the outlet is not readily accessible? But would be required to be AFCI protected per Article 210.12 (A).
Felix has pointed out the GFCI codes for the DW. The disposal would need to GFCI’d under 210.8.A.7 since the receptacle location falls with the sink distance rules. They both must be AFCI protected because the outlet (in this case receptacle outlet) is in a kitchen, 210.12.A. Building Code does let you put the DW receptacle behind the DW. Since the receptacle will be under the sink, it is still readily accessible as long as you don’t need a tool to open the under sink doors.
in the 40 years of doing electrical work I have always ran a separate 20 amp ckt for the dishwasher and disposal using a 20 amp recpt. under the sink with the top half switched for the disp. to plug into and the bottom half non switched for the dishwasher to plug into and installed rated pigtails on each appliance......And the only place I use 15 amp ckts and 14 wire is some lighting and gas fired furnaces....most every thing else 20 amp 12 wire......keep it simple
@14:14. So we can decide if we, or any future owner will or will not utilize it for 3+ hrs? I always though if it's possible to run 3+ hrs it's continuous. Thank you for all the videos.
Idk, can you imagine doing a house calculation load with that mentality? I doubt anyone will run a dishwasher even more than 1-2 hours ever, in residential applications of course.
My wife only knows one cycle on our fancy dishwasher. Hygienic with heat to dry dishes. Yep the longest and most expensive cycle. The motor probably never runs more then 10 to 12 minutes before going to a rinse cycle then heater that probably does not draw 10 amps so in my eyes you could connect the two appliances that never run motor never runs over 10 to 15 minutes. I have rewired kitchens during remodels and always but the dishwasher, garbage disposal and refrigerator on their own circuit breaker. Used to love when people spent tens of thousands of dollars to gut & update a kitchen from the 1930 or 40's and people refused to spend money to replace a 60 amp service & fuse box. Told them to please get somebody else to cut corners. Had some of these people that called me back to say they could not run dishwashet, garbage dispisal, hot comb in bathroom. Told them they had to hire somebody to split up circuits and by the way now that walls are closed in going to cost a lot more.
@@vlad1889 ... even a dishwasher will shut off at the end of a cycle, so there's a break in service. IOW, the 5 minutes to empty it is less than 3 hours.
Does NEC require that dishwasher and disposal circuits be sized for what future owners could reasonably install, or may the circuit be sized (smaller) for what will be installed initially? For example, a future owner COULD reasonably install a 15A dishwasher and a 1.25hp (12.3A) disposal. These are the largest sizes that are currently on the market. The dishwasher could be run virtually continuously for a party so needs its own 20A circuit. The disposal at 12.3A needs it’s own 15A circuit.
on the flip side, where does it say on a applicance label that it requires a AFCI or GFCI but yet the NEC requires GFCI receptacles in a kitchen. Didn't see anything on the labels that it required a gfci.
I may have missed it in all the other comments... What about three fixed appliances on the same circuit in the kitchen. I've got the dishwasher, diospser, and the instant hot water tap all in the same region. What would be my parameters there?
can you yes; should you no. Having a heavy motor load right next too and on the same circuit as senstive electronics in modern dish washers helps account for their increased failure rates. I separated mine by just running 14/2/2 to that location.
1 hp is only 6.1 A at 100% efficiency and 120V. Those name plates look quite accurate actually. 9.5A for . 75hp means it is a pretty inefficient motor, but likely puts out it's full rating. The main place I have seen the lies is on vacuums. I believe they are taking the stall torque and multiplying it by the maximum speed to get those those numbers, but the two don't occur at the same time so they are lies.
There's no such thing as a 100% efficient motor so doing a conversion of HP to watts and calculating amps from that doesn't really help since a motor is not a resistive load. Also, I'm not sure where you're FLA numbers are coming from but they're incorrect for 120Vac motors. 3/4HP is listed as 13.8A @ 120Vac per NEC table.
I have been in the same house and on the 4 th or 5th dishwasher. First was a portable on wheels that we had the two years in an apartment then cut out a cabinet and made it a built in. Newest dishwasher & even my direct drive heavy duty large capacity v washer machine have motors halve throw size of older ones and draw at least 35% less current. Guess that's due to being energy star rated. Have Manuel started on my gas dryer & washing machine. Had to down size ampere rating at least 4 amps lower on the latest washing machine. Glad I had the Manuel starter on those washing machine. Twice starter tripped out due to me not removing handful of #10 solid wire from my pocket causing water pump to jam up.
So I’m looking to purchase the Nfpa 70e but I don’t know what I should get , the standard 70e or the handbook which one has more detailed information and what is the difference thank you .
Hey Ryan; thanks for all the videos and info. Hard to believe that I been following you on instagram for a while and I just found out you also had a RU-vid channel
How do you get around Table 210.21(B)2? Maximum cord and plug connected load on a 20 amp receptacle and a 20a circuit is 16 amps? Maximum on a 15 amp receptacle is 12 amps.
A duplex is two receptacles. The total load on the duplex is limited to the rating of the device. Each of the receptacles can take up to 80% of that rating.
@@RyanJacksonElectrical I paused the video at 7:50 mark. It reads disposal is 6.6A and dishwasher is 9.5A = 16.1A 'Both may be supplied by a 20A circuit that doesn't contain any other loads'. Assuming you have cords on them, that is a violation of Table 210.21(B)2 that states the maximum cord and plug connected load is 16 amps for a 20 amp rated outlet on a 20A circuit.
Both a dishwasher & garbage disposer on the same branch circuit ? ? ? I don't see any problems with this, so long as the nameplate ratings of both appliances do not exceed the rating of the branch circuit and so long as the branch circuit is dedicated to those two appliances (with nothing else added to it.) In practice, I also use a single 20-ampere branch circuit to supply electrical current to a common household refrigerator and a typical household microwave oven (up to a 1.2kW rating), since both appliances are not continuously operated (the refrigerator cycles on & off, and the microwave oven, for obvious reasons - is not in operation for more than several minutes at a time.) My interpretations of the CODE when it comes to two dedicated circuits in a domestic kitchen environment is defined as two dedicated appliance circuits supplying counter-top receptacles that are intended for the use by portable, cord and plug connected small appliances i.e. toaster, coffee machine, food processor, meat slicer, rice cooker, etc. larger appliances such as the microwave oven or a convective air-fryer (with a nameplate rating of 12.50 amperes @ 120V.A.C. or 1.5kW of electrical energy consumption or power draw should be placed on a different circuit dedicated to that appliance as would be the case above (with the household refrigerator only drawing 3 amperes (0.360kW) or less when it is cycled on.) Commercial/industrial refrigeration units may very well draw even more electrical energy (in excess of 10 amperes (1.2kW) in some circumstances) and would otherwise be handled as the same as a microwave oven, being that it would also require a dedicated electrical circuit in order to operate reliably and without overloading the associated branch circuit supplying it and causing the circuit protection to trip offline, causing the refrigeration unit to cease operation and the contents requiring refrigeration to expire. I honestly do not see why NEC Article 210.23 is really all that difficult to understand? Basic math skills are definitely required in order to sum up the total circuit demands needed to understand when loading up branch circuits used for supplying specific appliances or applications, such as that of what would be found in a domestic/residential kitchen or commercial food preparation environment, workshop, or any other environment where there is a higher than normal electrical demand. I almost always keep lighting equipment, light fixtures or luminaires & associated utilization equipment (ceiling fan(s)) on a separate or dedicated electrical circuit, apart from circuits supplying kitchen appliances & electrical receptacles or other convenience receptacles so as to prevent the affected area from being left in the dark, should an electrical overload or other electrical fault occur on one of those appliance circuits.
Contractors put both my garbage disposal and dishwasher on the same 15 amp circuit. Remodel is not finished. Does this need to be corrected? Garbage disposal is 8amps and I can't find the info on the dishwasher we are adding (did not have one before).
@@RyanJacksonElectrical oops i was thinking 20 but it's a 15 amp. Going to change my question above to be 15 amps instead of 20. Thanks! I think you did say 20 would be ok in your video. Just opened that box for the dishwasher and it says it should be on a dedicated circuit (15 amp minimum) but I can't find the power numbers. Didn't have a dishwasher before so they were supposed to provision power for it.
Depends on the situation. If I am doing remodel work on a kitchen that’s on a slab. I will definitely put that on one circuit if the wire is in good shape.
why is that? he just demonstrated that it's code compliant and perfectly safe. most of the time you don't run both together. you use the disposer first and then start the dishes
All these “Well, better just run another line” or “better safe than sorry.”If a client is being charged an extra $1000+ dollars to run a new line because the electrician can’t be bothered to apply their own expertise, maybe quit being electricians. The whole point of a profession is to provide competency to someone who trusts you to be a subject matter expert.
@@talbertadams6586 I was referring to minute 11 in the video. If in the future the machine is replaced, no one knows the parameters. Also, if the luminaries take, let's say, 15 amps, does the nec allow to add an outlet to the circuit?
@@MrClaudio ... gotta read between the line again. If you mean old fashion Edison base bulbs, then all bets are off because people can stick any bulb in a socket and overload things. If you have newer fixtures with a specific socket type that can't accept a different bulb, then the math is different on the lighting load. What I am driving at is 15 amps worth of light is 1800 watts. (continuous load) If the CFLs are 20 watts each then that's 90 fixtures. If they are LED then probably twice that. I doubt your local inspector will allow that many fixtures on a circuit, no matter what the code says. BTW, if these are industrial type lights and permanently secured / hardwired, then you probably should be looking at the 50% rule for load.
What about table210.21(b)(2) Total cord and plug connected load. No more than 16 amps on a 20 amp circuit. Looks like you're over by 1/10 of an amp. If you're dishwasher & garbage disposal are cord and plugged type. Just curious that you didn't discuss the total cord and plug connected load table 210.21(b)(2)
Oh...so each receptacle on the duplex can supply up to 16amps if on 20 circuit....(but you can't load the branch circuit up to 32 amps)... It is not stating the total being plugged into both. Is what the table means. What I think is getting me confused is how the tables description, uses the terminology" total cord and plug connected load in excess" should it not drop the word "total" and just state "cord and plug connected load in excess" The word total makes me want to add up all my cord and plugs connected loads. Thanks I really do appreciate your work.
JIC he doesn't respond, the answer is yes. (Haven't read NEC 2020 yet, but it's almost certainly still "not prohibited". I buy code books every other cycle to save money :-)
@@JacobYoces I'm going by all of the articles. TBH, there's a few parts I've never read, near the back, for very specific things. If a 91 degree bend was prohibited, it would be for a specific wiring method (Art. 3_ _). I'm familiar with most of those articles, and it's not in there (99.9% sure).
As a retired sparky that spent 50 enjoyable years as a sparky never saw anything in the NEC prohibiting prohibiting more then a 90 degree bend in conduit. Just look at some if the old fashioned but still used conduit feeding a lamp with a shade that has more then 180 degrees in a bend illuminating an outdoor wall sign . As long as you do not go over 360 degrees in bends it would be legal. I already made over a 100 degree bend in conduit while running conduit from 1 wall to a connecting wall that was maybe only a 70 degree angle rather then walls being 90 degrees.
Hey Ryan, just to clear things up. If cord and plug connected equipment is limited to 80% of the circuit rating, then why do manufacturers make 1875 watt hair dryers, and deep fat dryers, toaster ovens and steam irons rated at 1800 watts, with a 15 amp plug? It would seem like they would be required to come with a nema 1-20P or 5-20P to comply with the NEC code for the 80% rule.
16:48 210.23(C) Does this imply that a 40 or 50 amp circuit in a dwelling unit cannot supply anything other than cooking equipment? E.g. EV Charger, Welder, Large AC, Electric Furnace etc.
For these other appliances / equipment, you would be running an individual branch circuit and 210.22 would apply, and not any of the multi-outlet rules of 210.23.
@@J-Jim ... good point. I can't think of any applications where a 30 - 60 amp outlet would not be a dedicated run to a single outlet. Anything over 60 amps will be a sub panel and broken out from there.
You said that the dishwasher and disposal were "fixed in place". Then at 10:10 you said they were "fastened in place" and that "you're going to need tools to get those out. At 10:44 you said both your dishwasher and disposal are "fixed equipment, 210.23(A)(2) does not apply". So, you're using the terms interchangeably. However, the definition of "Fastened in Place" is found at NEC 625.2: "Mounting means of equipment in which the fastening means are specifically designed to permit periodic removal, without the use of a tool, for relocation, interchangeability, maintenance, or repair." Note that it says "without the use of a tool" and "periodic removal" which, disposals and dishwashers are not periodically removed. Can you clarify this? Also, id "cord-and-plug" pretty much equivalent to "not fastened in place"?
@@RyanJacksonElectrical Ok, thanks for clarifying that. But can you still clarify the difference between cord-and-plug, Fixed in place and fastened in place? Maybe some examples of each, since they're not in Article 100.
