Had to comment. I've been DMing for 30 years. Very rarely do I watch a 'how to' video like this and actually pick up useful ideas. This is packed with them. Awesome job! Thanks!
Red Herring room = one of your very best ideas. Especially to have a harder red herring fight than the "boss." Final boss fights are more fun with gags and room mechanics rather than slugfests, which can be brutal late in a session. Dry Erase for life!
This model can be fractal. You can make an entrance section that follows the five room model, with its twist leading into a non-combat segment that follows the five room model, which in turn forks into a boss rush that follows the five room model or a red herring five room model, which then converge onto a five-room twist. You can scale it up or down however you wish, vary it, iterate on it, it has limitless potential. Also, I can't help comparing this to kishoutenketsu - a narrative structure that originated in ancient China: ki (occur) shou (receive) ten (rotate) ketsu (tie together); the idea is that you start with a basic premise (the entrance), develop it (the rp/puzzle room), add some new element that recontextualizes it (the boss or red herring), and then bring everything together into a satisfying conclusion and/or building up another iteration.
As someone new to DMing, I found the majority of this video very informative. Thank you for posting. However, as a player I have to warn against the "suckerpunch". It's fine when you have a twist that leads into more combat or continues the story (or ties different plots together). But when it's entirely or mostly negative, it can make players not enjoy the campaign anymore. I've been in campaigns (usually home grown) where players have busted their humps and overcome incredible odds, only to be told that all or most of the prisoners/victims/townspeople that we're trying to save have died. Even though we "won", we lost. It didn't instill a sense of "we have to do better, on to the next quest!", but a sense of "no matter how hard we try, we can't accomplish our goal. We should give up adventuring". And it will piss players off. Now, obviously there needs to be a level of risk. It's not a video game where the world will just wait for you. There need to be consequences if players are dicking around. What I'm warning against is setting players up for a fall, where they earn the euphoric feeling of having accomplished something seriously important, and then pulling the rug out from under them.
I agree that using this device would be bad in every single dungeon, but I think this kind of setup would be great as a midpoint twist in your campaign that adds drama to the story. Maybe your group is mopping the floor with baddies, slaying monster after monster and gaining incredible clout. Then, after several dungeons of this, things get extremely dark in your storyline. Would add a lot of spice, imo.
This is hands down the best advice I have come across while looking through DM tips on youtube. How to pace a dungeon has been a trial for me up to this point. I'm running a one-shot for my extended family while camping this weekend and am still new to DMing, and this is exactly what I was looking for. This is outstanding.
Coming in here 4 years later, but as a 2nd-game-DM this is super helpful for me. I understand how to design video game dungeons, but D&D is not a 1 player video game. It's been tricky for me to figure out how to create dungeons for D&D. I'll be applying these concepts immediately for my session today. Thanks!
this is brilliant. the most helpful part was including the info of how the players can bypass anything and to be prepared for that. very helpful and will become a framework for every dungeon i make. Many thanks.
Whenever I get stuck designing a dungeon, I go back to this video. It's so much easier to design a flowchart of the elements you want to be in your dungeon than starting with drawing the actual physical location.
Thank you so much for this! These are some awesome tips. I'm running a Dungeon World game, and I realized that, though I'm a rather experienced GM, I haven't really made any dungeons before. Most of my games have been World of Darkness and the like. I was happy to see that your technique here is good for adventures as well as dungeons. So, thanks!
This is enlightening, thank you. It's very much a great groundwork to build from for any dungeon or event setting. You laid it out plainly and simply and that's kind of a tall task--very well organized.
Hey Matt - just wanted to say thanks for this video. I ran my first homemade, entirely from scratch, Pathfinder session using this model as the base, and it was such a huge success! I had only run pre-made adventures, or modifications on pre-mades, in the past, as the process of creating something from scratch was quite daunting. This was the first time I prepared the session entirely from scratch and it was efficient, effective, and waaay more enjoyable for me and my players. Thanks again!
Thanks for doing the Five Room Dungeon correctly, and not following the reprehensible model on nerdsonearth. Why D&D Beyond chose to link to them is beyond me.
So, let's see how the last dungeon I've built measures up to this. First, let me set the stage: The players are send by the local Mayor to end the oddly organized terror of Orcs. One player is an Elf, who has been plagued by the Orcs for over a century, and even though he's good, is urging the other players for a deadly end to the Orc threat. The others aren't quite so sure yet. After tracking through the wilds, where they find more victims of the Orcs (a Grippli tribe), they finally arrive at the hidden dungeon entrance, that has been pointed out by the Mayor. They enter a rocky tunnel, that over a few dozen feet turns into smooth wall. Here, they enter a room, where they find (what they think to be) a dead wizard slumped over a Shrine dedicated to Shar, her holy symbol painted on the wall. Then suddenly the lights drop, as they get jumped by a Dark Creeper (The Guardian)! This first combat takes the Strength of the Inquisitor (who has aspirations of tanking) to about a 3. Thanks to some common sense, they come to the conclusion that any smart poisoner has an antidote nearby (thank Ao for a capable Alchemist), and they head deeper into the dungeon. They find a plundered storage room, where everything is smashed to bits, and beds just too small for humans (I like my cryptic exposition). In another room, they come across means to create an antidote. This takes some time, however. The Elf uses some magic to scout ahead, and comes upon the Red Herring room, a liar of a Giant Spider. This room than is immediatly discarded by the party, they don't want to risk fighting the creature, weakening them again, or allerting the Orcs... that should be somewhere. Then, they come upon what used to be something inbetween a shrine dedicated to mighty Dwarves and a storage (or tomb). This is the Puzzle/RP challenge, as completing the puzzle grants players the right to ask but *one* question of the Dwarves. Of course, one player asks "So, we should just ask our questions, right?", wasting his question (poor fellow). Thanks to three other more wisely formulated questions, they learn what has happened to the Dwarves. The Inquisitor, somewhat recovered, is now convinced that the Orc-Chief must die, to bring vengeance on the Orcs and safety to all their victims. He gives a great speech, and then the party carries on, deeper into what used to be a great Dwarven city. They come to the Throne room, that has been stripped of it's riches, safe a magnificent crown lying on the floor. Greed gets the better of one of the players, who puts it on, only finding out the hard way the crown is possesed. After nearly losing his head, and a good portion of the party's spells, they defeat the evil thing and release the spirit trapped inside (thank you Paladin, I will find a way to use that good kharma). After this actual Red Herring, they take a short rest, and continue onwards again. Little did they know that the Boss/Chieftain is awake now, since I planned out a very nice routine for him. After having incredible trouble with a steep slope ("Really, none of you has put *any* ranks in Climb?"), they find that, in fact, Tymora was smiling upon them, as they can catch the Orc at his weakest point. Any other moment, he would have had a weapon, which would have very, very likely resulted in a TPK. Regard his favored weapon Zan'Vosh, Elf-Eater, a Falchion (2d4+17, 18-20). That's a lot to swallow at level 2. Instead, unarmed, he only manages to bash one player unconscious, before getting overwhelmed by the incredible power of Smite Evil. So, finally, I did have a twist in mind. After this wall of text, do you remember the entrance? The "dead" wizard of Shar? Not so dead. Merely paralyzed by poison and now recovered. And gone. And quite aware who took his spellbook.
So, tl;dr, my latest dungeon matches this format, even when I wasn't aware I could use it! Entrance: Dark Creeper + RP mystery Puzzle: Dwarf Exposition + RP opportunity Red Herring: Giant Spider + Possessed Helm Boss: Orc Captain Twist: A disappearing corpse, a new enemy
I rather enjoyed this video. Normally I don't click on Dungeon tips, but I came across your video and had never seen your work before so I watched it. It was well thought out and gave me another idea on making dungeons and even adventures.
As usual, I love the video, Matt. I've watched it before, but I'm only now getting around to running my first original campaign, and this model is proving a very useful blueprint! I'm not a fan of dungeons, but as you alluded to, you can take this model and apply it to a number of different situations. For my session #1, I've adapted it like so: 1. Set the tone (I'm setting up the scene and throwing them into combat) 2. RP challenge and character development (a respite from combat) 3. A low-level fight if they fail the challenge (in place of the red herring) 4. The culmination of the adventure thus far (finding a person of interest whether they go through the 'red herring' or not) 5. The cliffhanger (I may or may not steal your Corrupter sucker-punch, but I want to put something at the end to leave the players eager for session #2!)
This is mostly a thematic storytelling subdivision of a dungeon adventure ;) Prologue, than first, second and third act, and the final (usually, containing the twist that enforces the next adventure). Your video made me acknowledge that I was instinctually using this scheme all along (I am a DM by more than 25 years, to date), and probabily all came basically from mimiching the plot structure of many many movies, books and novels... Nice video :)
Great starting point to provide structure. You've done a service to new DM's and/or those who maybe haven't had experience contemplating narrative concepts like pervasive theme or foreshadowing. Well done, and much obliged!
Nice one, this is sooo helpful! Watching this as I am creating my first Dungeon, I paused your video at 2:30 and googled the meaning of "red herring" (Not a native English speaker) and after reading it I had a strange feeling like I'd been had...
I'm starting to think of starting a game with my group and all of your videos have been super helpful (especially with someone like me who is going to be new to DMing though I have experience as a player). Thank you so much!
Great vid Matt. I use this technique for nearly every game that I prep. When starting a campaign I will generally do up three roughly detailed 5 room 'dungeon' setups. I say 'dungeon' as, like you said, this does not have to be a true dungeon. I like to write up tier for a dungeon, a city, and a wilderness scenario. Then I keep them on hand for future prep. As one gets used up I replace it with another and set it aside. This allows me to pick something on the fly as needed, for when those sneaky players wander off course. Once you do these design style enough it starts to become second nature.
This is really helpful, thanks for taking the time to make this. I'm new to dming, and basically newer to dnd in general, and I'm now dming a game for players who have played for years, lol. So far i'm doing good, but this is helpful for some up and coming ideas i have, and now I know how to build them better. Thanks!
I really enjoyed your ideas on the theory behind dungeon creation. I loved the lecture style presentation and the examples. This will be very useful. Thank you!
The number one piece of advice I see and get as a DM, apparently regardless of the source, is "keep it simple." I can't even remember how many times I've seen, read, and heard that single phrase in the context of running a game. And yet my first big game is more convoluted than a maze designed by a blind man.
Great video, very helpful. A suggestion for a future video: how can you realistically have a party 'making their way' through a dungeon/castle/caves without noise bringing the entire population down on them. This is a tricky topic, not always handled well IME.
TheSwamper I'd say training your players' characters to be less noisy and disruptive through negative reinforcement will help that even things up. By which I mean, if reinforcements would realistically arrive (the enemy groups want to help each other) then they should come running. If they're not prone to running into an apparent meat grinder, then makeshift barricades or traps set in a hurry while enemies either flee out a bolthole or bunker down for a stand. I got my party to break the idea of "encounter, short rest, encounter, short rest" and taking their time by having them come to a door which had been spiked shut on them because they'd taken too long getting there. Fighter kicked in the door and ate three crossbow bolts to the chest from enemies waiting for him to do just that.
kereminde Thanks for the suggestions, but its not my players that are the issue in my question. It's how do I, as the GM, realistically run a scenario where the PCs are moving through an enemy stronghold and they are vastly outnumbered? The problem being that the PCs either have to play flawlessly (never make a loud noise, never get spotted or found out, etc) because if they don't, they are going to be quickly swarmed and killed. It seems to me that a combat encounter that generates any noise can't occur because the noise would draw guards and then its over. These dungeon maps I see that have multiple rooms and these monsters in this room and these in this room are often very unrealistic for PCs to tackle.
TheSwamper Don't run a scenario where PCs have to infiltrate somewhere they're outnumbered 100-1? To be less sarcastic, there are a few ideas which sound really good for realism when talking about how things work. But there's a few things which need to be thrown out the window when it comes to it because *realism* is not as important as *fun*. It's not fun to play a scenario where one flubbed roll means an inevitable TPK, as much as it should happen. There are ways to tackle it where you reach the level of "believable" without hitting "realistic", which is about where you want to aim for. Those dungeons? I earlier gave one option. There's others, such as planning the enemies relocate - heck you can turn it into an expected part of the dungeon design as given here. Room one is taking the defenders, but the monsters inside hear and retreat, leaving abandoned rooms between the party and the "Boss" which becomes a fortified position with no big one-critter target and instead a lot of smaller ones. While the "Room Two" can be the tension slowly building up as they know the other monsters/enemies are around but aren't finding them.
In regards to your party skipping or missing a room. As a DM try not to limit yourself to designated room locations. Give your players the illusion of choice. Right, left, up, down, it doesn't actually matter. The players may end up where you decide they end up. If you're a DM, don't forget the time you spent building this world, you deserve to enjoy it too.
You could actually also call that the "earring method" because it kind of also looks like a earring. Definitely very good advice, that dungeon was pulled off amazingly in the Provokers session.
As a green DM, I really enjoy this idea. I would think that if the party got to the boss and then left, the twist is unnecessary. However, if they continue to explore the dungeon, look for every nook and cranny, etc. then the twist would definitely be a good option, since they essentially "wasted time."
Wonderfully helpful video! I feel like I've got a better handle on making my first dungeon. I think my twist is going to be that after they restore the powers of this nature god, Pan, he tries to kill one of the NPCs that looks like the one who trapped him, even though the NPC is innocent. The party then would have to decide to save him or leave him.
Awesome vid! I never thought to have a pre planned structure like this. When looking at the last "dungeon" I made and ran though, I don't think it would fit in this exact format. The "entrance" had no combat & no physical blockage to the rest of the dungeon. The RP / puzzle challenge was a constant throught every room ( they had to save people & keep them alive ) .. Red herring.... well, the red herring was sort of a constant as well. Small combats & imagery serving to weaken the PC's & facilitate a tension & release cycle. Actually the entire encounter was built to be an ever growing cycle of tension & release up until the final combat. In the words of one of the players & I quote . . " There was a distinct fealing of dread." . . . I feal successfull but I dont think I followed that mentality you just illustrated. I'm jazzed to give it a whirl though! ';..;'
I'm planning on using this technique for a one shot I'm doing to drag my friends into the magical world of 5e D&D and teach them the rules. I'm thinking of a simple "you all got hired to do a thing", the thing being a local temple has been having strange occurrences around the catacombs. Entrance/Guardian will probably be a combat with a few skeletons, then I haven't really decided what I want the Puzzle/RP challenge to be yet. I want there to be ability checks in there somewhere, but I also want to let them interact with NPCs and each other, so both they and me can get a feel for it. Perhaps a skeleton that isn't trying to kill them? Maybe a regular old puzzle or trap of some sort, put there to ward off grave robbers. Red Herring I'm imagining will be what appears to be causing the skeletons to come to life, or just what seems like the boss, maybe a higher level monster-skeleton or something. The twist I have a kinda great idea for... but it might not be as funny when it's not 4 in the morning lmao
Great video! I've been watching the Provokers sessions, and I found this video very helpful because of the real example from a highly entertaining game. Thanks!
I created a dungeon once. After the party falls into a sinkhole and finds themselves in an underground hive for cannibals they make their way through tunnels avoiding being hit by enemies because their weapons caused your nerves to go crazy. then they had to choose between sneaking past sleeping earth elementals or through a smaller crevice with lots of spiders in it. after that there was a large gap with 5 natural bridges spanning it but only one of the bridges was stable enough to cross. Finally the boss fight consisted of an Ancient Wendigo that the cannibals were worshipping. on their way out they meet a search party of villagers that were planning to rescue some victims from the cannibals but ran into you instead.
Now that I think about it I should have rewarded the thief for being the only one brave enough to sneak past the elementals. Oh well they got a huge reward from the village regardless
Thanks for sharing this, Matt. I think this model is gonna be super helpful for my dungeon drafting in the future. It's definitely getting some gears to turn in my head. :D
aFistfulofDice Great video on a topic that seems to have been pushed off to the side. Solid advice here~! The video got me thinking about several ways that I could alter or manipulate the technique to suit many different kinds of "quests". My current adventure is a large semi-open super adventure based in an "abandoned" city. Players are able to go wherever they please, with multiple ways to traverse the city and learn about a potential player goal through notes and the environment. How would you/do you approach a situation like this? Thanks for the video, Cheers.
Hey Matt, quick question: My friends and I were thinking of programming a random dungeon generator, to help DMs who don't want to build a castle or whatever from the ground up. Just gathering opinions, how much of the adventure (monsters, puzzles, key items, etc) do you think a random dungeon generator should provide? Also, if you have any more advice on what makes a successful dungeon I would love to hear it. P.S. Super excited for BrigadeCon
Jacob Ford There are a few random dungeon generators online, but one thing that I've never found is one that creates a cohesive dungeon. The ability to select a theme would be awesome (i.e. terrain, monster type, element, etc.). That way if I want to randomly generate a fire-themed dungeon, or a dungeon in a jungle, I can do so.
***** There existed one for AD&D 2nd Edition and I still have it somewhere. It's a little funky but it does . . . work? . . . in a sense. I think it's this: www.amazon.com/Dungeon-Builders-Guidebook-AD-Accessory/dp/0786912073
I have a serious question for the DM. First, I'd like to express my gratitude for having this sort of information. It's awesome and nicely presented. Now my question, do you ever get tired of your own voice? I notice dm'ing has made me irritated with my own voice. My fluctuation and inflection ends up dying, and my ears begin to resent how gravelly my voice is, then i restrain my voice and it gets mono. It bleeds into my characters regardless of how I know they speak.
Xchovenei I used to really hate my voice. But I've been making videos and doing podcasts and such for so long now that I'm kind of just over it. Just remind yourself that your voice is always more annoying to you than it is to other people. I'm sure nobody else minds.
I’m late to the party but still wanted to ask a few questions; isn’t the red herring and boss fork ultimately leading to the same room defying the purpose of a fork? I ask this because I think loops are extremely useful in a dungeon but only when connecting distant areas together, if they’re too small then they don’t introduce a meaningful choice for the player in my opinion. Also, do you put the boss room and the red herring room in a quantum state in which, whatever decision players take, they will meet the rooms in a chosen order? I know some masters do that, what do you think about it?
One problem I always have with dungeons is that the monsters in each room always seem oblivious to what is going on in the other rooms. It seems to me that the news of attack would spread pretty quickly and the monsters within would gather together to repel the invaders, making an encounter far too difficult for the party to face... I can't seem to find a solution to this. Also 13:07 - the cat!
(sorry for long message wanted to cover all bases) depending yes and no, if there is explosions than yes the rooms adjacent should know, ( or at the least aware somethings wrong) however if you take them out quickly using swords and arrows ( granted nothing hits the walls and none yells ) then maybe not, say if its concrete walls, with no cracks, sound has a hard time going through solid items, it will however go under doors or through cracks * plus they could mistake it for a sparring match or training
( again long message,... couldn't find a way to shorten it. the 2nd chunk is an example) in an event where there is loud noise have a poorly armed scout arrive mid or right after battle ends ( your discretion ) and then have him possibly get closer or watch for a round . then start running for the closet exit. ( the scout should just be out of range for the party to reach in one turn and melee attack that turn but wont escape in one turn while sprinting, also shouldn't die from one arrow unless crit or stayed at an exit) This could be used in a castle for instance, a messenger finds the fight between your party and the guards and then runs for captains or knights. Usually a alarm will activate and the party knows the castle is on high alert it may be a good idea to allow the party to shut the alarm down, either turning power off (unleashing trapped enemies) or finding the alarm center itself
At the end of any significant dungeon, I like to present my players with a difficult choice, rather than encounter. (Of course, It'll be a difficult encounter if they pick the more direct route, which is often just killing whatever and taking the relic.) For example, in our current campaign, an encounter I have planned is that at the end of a dungeon, they will find three beings. Two humans, and one half-dragon. The humans will be a level 3 Cleric, and a level 5 Paladin, a husband and wife (Respectively.) and the half-dragon will be their child affected by a curse. The two of them needs this sacred artifact to save their dying child, but the party needs It to complete their quest. This leads to an interesting moral issue. Will they just kill the two Humans and put the half-dragon out of her missery? Will they help her? Will they just steal the relic and let the child die? Decisions, decisions.
Little off topic. But you did a video a while back that was about land structure. As in mountains and how land forms. Plus it talked about weather and ecology. What was the title of that book?
but I do not think the entrance allways has a gaurdian, abandoned ruins would have some monsters squatting inside but would not nessesarily have lots of traps and a gaurdian, unless the people who made the ruins didn't like intruders(and that would mean that monsters would have a hard time getting in) - allways consider who made the place and who lived/lives there as that changes what the dungeon is like.
Nothing I didn't know already, but not bad ideas for those who are beginning to create dungeons for games. Still the history and function of the dungeon should be accounted for. Is it abandoned and why? Why are all these creatures here? What is all this loot doing here? Feel free to tell me what you think.
I feel like this is the completely wrong way to start with creating a dungeon, its a good 2nd step but i feel like the first step should always be a question: ''why is this dungeon here? what did it used to be?'' give every dungeon some background to make it feel alive and part of the world instead of, just another dungeon
That is very true, though i still feel like he shouldve awknowledged it, i mispelled that completely but im not english and i dont know how to spell it xD
There's no "wrong" way of doing anything in this hobby. Just because I use this method doesn't mean I'm not constantly doing so with the dungeon's background and history in mind. The example I give IN this video is proof enough of that.
So it's wrong for you. That's fine. Using this method AND giving your dungeon a history and background are not mutually exclusive - and I never state that they are.
I do not understand why there is a link from the "red herring" to the "Twist" section. Shouldn't the Twist come up only after the players have finished the dungeon (for example by killing the boss)?
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