Do all 12-bit samplers sound the same? 

"My name is Espen Kraft, but everybody calls me The Eighties"

Was there a DAC cart on the TRS-80?

@@timothydahlin5321 yeah explain yourself 🤨

Evidently there were expansion interfaces for the TRS-80 and software like Orchestra 80 was available, but with only 48kB of RAM available, you were limited to *very* short samples. Similar technology was available for the 48k ZX Spectrum in Britain (also based on the Z80 chip). Cheetah made interfaces and introduced the Specdrum and Sound Sampler, but they were essentially useless as musical instruments, as there was no MIDI capability. Effectively all you could do was play back a short 17kHz sample by pressing one of the Spectrum's rubber keys, but there was no sequencing. It was more akin to a digital tape recorder; a demonstration of digital recording technology, rather than being actually useful.

Cheers! :D

@ＦＬ Ｈ３ I think the main reason why bitcrushers will never sound the same as these old samplers is because bitcrushers just lay a static setting over top of the sound instead of actually sampling it. But even if you sampled a bitcrushed sound, it still wouldn't sound the same because that sound is mostly due to the behavior of the converters in the sampler. Unless someone figures out a way to emulate the less predictable behavior of old ADCs and DACs, bitcrushers will never be able to sound convincing enough. The only plugin I've ever heard that came close to the old sampler sound is Cyclone by Sonic Charge, which is an emulation of the Yamaha TX16W. Since it's an actual sampler instead of an effect, it gets way closer than any bitcrusher ever will. It was even made by the guy who made the Typhoon OS for the TX16W.

Was that when they recorded someone tapping a wine glass then a kid played the sample up and down the keyboard as a complete song? Loved that and I got an SK1 for Christmas 😂 then I got an SK200 a few years later. I still have them 😀

Cheers! :D

CMI Fairlight & Emulator EMU were used ❤

@@nicolaskavvadias8488 Yeah, expensive at the time.

Thanks! You should feel very alive on this channel then as 80s music is what I do. ;-) Cheers

Cheers! :D

Cheers Rick! :D

Cheers! :D

Many thanks!

What went wrong after the 80s?

@@rachelar D to A converters became too clean and digital sounding, which is neither warm or natural (this applies to all audio electronics). This is why my CD player is a Philips CD-104 which has a 14 bit DAC inside (Sound wise, it will blow anything else away!)

@@delatronics3257 what are your thoughts on the Roland MV8000 and 8800?

I left Roland in 1997 so these are after my time, I also never had one for repair as Delatronics authorised service centre in the UK and Brazil. Likely to be reliable and great sounding though.

Yep!💕🎵☔️

Exactly 😀

And remember "don't copy that floppy"!

I remember how exciting analog synth sounds were and when sampling came in that was mind blowing to kids in the 80s! It was weird for me too because the sampling revolution started here in my home town, Sydney Australia with Fairlight samplers! We were not used to being the centre of anything back in those days. Unfortunately Fairlight did not survive the 80s, but either did Moog, Sequential or Oberheim (although thankfully they have been reborn so to speak!).

Cheers! :D

Gold Jerry! Gold!. ;-)

@@EspenKraft Thumbs up for the Seinfeld reference

Cheers! :D

Cheers! :D

Cheers Damon! :D

Cheers!

Cheers! :D

Excellent, congrats! :D

Cheers! :D

Cheers! :D

Thanks! Well, it depends on what I'm doing, but generally I'd use the S-10 over ANY other sampler. For the ease of use and the sound, mostly the sound. It's true that there is a kind of difference in sound between the S-50 and S-550, but the term "pure audio quality" is not the term I'd use. ;-) It's more about grain in the very lower octaves. The S-10 will always be my preferred choice.

Me too. I'm debating on getting a floppy emulator. I'm the original owner and the drive still works - plus I have a new replacement... but still. I also have a non-working DSS-1 with the ram upgrade and SCSI, but alas, the lights come on but nobody's home.

Have you found editors for the dss?

I replaced the floppy myself. No soldering. Just open the beast and put it in. Real simple and so worth it. All the factory sounds is on the internets

@@tobiasjeansson Yeah I have a bunch of sounds and I've created a bunch. I haven't used it much lately but plan finding a place for it in a new studio environment. The only editor I know of is the old SampleVision by Turtle Beach. It appears to still run on Windows 10 but I haven't tried editing with it yet. I know it will be extremely slow with sample transfer over MIDI.

@@Garflips I have developed my own editor which I will eventually release for free during the year. Works fine so far: modernretro.epizy.com/korg-dss1-program-parameter.html

The input level did vary among the different samplers. Like I say in the video description, it is nearly impossible to make such a comparisons video consistent throughout. I'm well aware of the release time of the Amp envelope in the P2000, but I didn't bother going into that. I don't think it matters for this video. Cheers! :D

How do you like it versus the ADD-one?

Never seen one for sale here in Norway and I wouldn't want to buy one for the prices they go for either so I'll probably will never be able to feature one on this channel.

Cheers! :D

The Amiga had great qualities, no doubt about that. Unfortunately for it, it lost the battle to the Atari ST in the pro studio world. No studio I ever worked in had any Amiga, but it was always an Atari ST there, and a stack of Akai samplers. ;-)

@@EspenKraft That's because of one simple reason. By the time studios were buying Atari ST's, it wasn't until the 90s or the end of 1989 when Cubase came out. Higher quality 16 bit samplers were widely in use by then, so for them to consider what was advertised an a built-in 8 bit sampler on the Amiga was of less use to a large studio. Lesser known since it was not advertised, was it could actually do 14 bit sampling if you used software that supported it (not so widely in use). By the 90s, both the Amiga & the Atari ST were on their death beds. It was the 5 years before that of these platforms where it really mattered. By the 90s, the PC won the war by a mile, and the Mac was the 2nd biggest platform. To the masses, it was sort of crazy to buy either an Amiga or ST by the 90s. But imagine having these sampler & soft synth abilities.......way back in 1995! I took notice, and could see the great value of having a state of the art personal computer that could do the same kind of thing as the Ensoniq Mirage which was new on the market, the first budget sampler (priced similar to the Amiga 1000), so why not just buy the computer, enjoy the very best video games available for any home system, top of the line general purpose computer, and this great built-in sampling & synthesizer ability? Really, I still do the same kind of things I did on my Amiga in the mid 80s today, but on a PC now. And those things......were not possible on the Atari ST.

The Atari ST with Pro-24 was something a lot of studios were using, all the way back in 1986 and the Atari ST was the preferred computer of choice in the studios for the sequencer and patch-editors at the time. That the Amiga could do sampling and other stuff didn't change the fact that studio owners and producers saw it as a toy, a souped up C64. Unfair yes, but this is how it was. The Amiga bombed every time as a serious studio tool. It simply wasn't regarded as such. Not even by me, and I was a big C64 user already. I too went the Atari ST route. ;-)

@@EspenKraft I seemed to recall the Dr T's software was one of the first popular sequencing packages around that time, and available on both platforms. It may be true large music studios weren't using the Amiga for MIDI (their loss), but wasn't it true most studios just used tape at the time in the mid 80s? Certainly for what I do...rock bands, MIDI sequencing wasn't a huge thing. Those bands I love, and was influenced by basically did the same thing they do live in the studio. Actually playing all the tracks heard, or most of them. My attitude was....let the recording engineers be the recording experts. I want to play my synthesizers. But with the Amiga, I also like that it could "be my instrument". That some how felt....like a personal touch connecting me with it. Technically speaking, the Amiga had equally as strong of MIDI abilities. TV stations and video production houses turned to the only personal computer that could replace expensive dedicated computers that had cost many tens of thousands of dollars. MIDI sequencing could have been done equally as well on either platform, but the Amiga had that amazing (for mid 80s) sound chip equal to synthesizers/samplers. In the 80s & beginning of the 90s, I worked in television. "producers saw it as a toy, a souped up C64" Funny you say that. I'm sure you know the history of these two computers? In fact, it's the ST that actually is the souped up C-64. The Amiga has nothing in common with the C-64. The primary people responsible for developing the C-64 and marking it, Commodore's founder and key engineers left Commodore to develop the Atari ST. Ironically, the Amiga's development team were key people from the old Atari. These two companies almost did a flip flop. As an Apple user, it was the C-64 thought of as a toy. I switched from my Apple to the state of the art Amiga. I had a C-64 "as a toy", and I had it for exactly that reason.. With an Amiga, like the Apple, you could do a lot of serious things with the Amiga. The "only" reason the ST was developed was because the people that brought you the Atari ST, could not get their hands on the upcoming Amiga technology. which was being developed for 4 years prior by a large team. They tried to obtain that amazing technology, and failed. The result was, making a cheap knock off of it, which ended up being the Atari ST. A "cheap" knock off of the Amiga. It sold for half the price originally. Many people had already learned from how those same people that brought you C-64, you couldn't trust them. They built their stuff out of the absolute cheapest parts, and they did not care about their users or dealers. In fact, the man most responsible for bringing you the C-64 & Atari ST, was not a computer user himself! In the end, I believe the Amiga total user base far exceeded the total user base of the Atari ST users, despite the ST's lower cost. Companies like Steinberg were just plain stupid in choosing their platform. In the end, they probably could have sold a lot more copies with a larger user base. The Apple ][ did not become #1 in the early 80s because it was the cheapest platform, but being cheap was 100% the strategy of the C-64 & Atari ST. The Amiga was the first computer in years designed to be.....state of the art.....in every way...Since the Amiga.....no major new computer platform has attempted to be that ever again. Advancements have been incremental every since, latching on to need to be compatible with something before it.

@@n8goulet I come from a commercial pop "chart" world, and radio/tv commercials world as well, where sequencing was a big deal. The inbuilt MIDI interface and MIDI OS integration helped the ST too, less clutter and it just worked. No matter how big Amiga fanboy one can be or no matter how sore and bitter one might feel, the Amiga did loose to the ST in the pro audio world at the time. That's a fact. It did rise to a solid workhorse in tv/video studios in the years to come, I myself worked on a Amiga 2000 for a couple of years myself, as a video editing platform, genlock and all that. I do know what I'm talking about as well.

Thanks! While the song plays it says on the screen to check out the video description for links. ;-) I have links to all my featured music there. The song is available online. Cheers

Mange takk!

Cheers! :D

909 for a Kurzweil K2500? You made out big time in my opinion.

Thanks!

Sure, on a technical level all sorts of things is going on, but in "overall consensus" these are 12-bit samplers and they were also advertised as such by their makers. ;-)

Life is like that for a lot of people. Life always get in the way of fun, unless you make some changes. ;-)

It's not as easy as for many of the other samplers as the controller electronics is not part of the S612 itself. The S612 never had an internal QD. You have to add the electronics AND the drive so more elaborate process. It is doable though. Cheers! :D

No chance for that I'm sorry to say. ;-)

I generally dislike physical mods like that and would definitely not pay for one. I work the DSS-1 just fine as it is. ;-)

@@EspenKraft Well, the Straylight is based on an official Korg-sponsored mod from the 80's if that helps :D Tom just added USB instead of SCSI and a couple other things to make it more modern. You can read it here: www.straylightengineering.com/projects/korg-dss-1/the-upgrade-story/

Absolutely, I know what it is and what it can do. I've been aware of it for a long time. I just don't feel the need to pay that kind of money for what it can give me. I'm very happy with the stock factory DSS-1 and apart from having to swap out the display for a new one, it does everything i want. That's my stand on it. Others might feel the opposite and there's luckily no rights or wrongs. We all do what we like. Thanks for mentioning it for potential new people interested. :)

Thanks. I could have, but I had done a detailed Emax vs Emax II already so didn't bother.

@@EspenKraft I had already watched it

If you check back just one video you'll see that I've replaced the QD in my S-10 with an emulator. The S-10 video here is old, I just edited in. I do love to use floppies and quick disks, nothing fuels my nostalgia more, but sometimes, for practical reasons I have to do some choices based on efficiency and in the case of my S-10 and S-700 I went the emulator route.

I think the opposite. Roland S-760 like the Akai S1000/1100. Great workhorses in the studio, clinical sound with a lot less personality than the 80s models. Of course in the beginning of the 90s we didn't think like that, but now, now I much prefer the 80s models.

@@EspenKraft Thanks for this video. Indeed, moving to 16bit seemed logical at the time. I loved the S-330 and miss it for many reasons. 8 outputs, crunchy character and the audio wave 'paint' feature :)

@@EspenKraft Play around with the “Bit Convert” feature (and its associated “Skip Address” parameter) on the S-760 and be prepared to change your mind about it sounding clinical… well, maybe. Perhaps you were already aware of it.

The brass chords just seem more musical, despite being less "clear" than the others 😌

Must be. ;-)

I had one, but it was so glitchy it wouldn't work consistently. I'm looking for one right now and as soon as I get my hands on one in ok condition I will do it. I really love the Mirage and was featured a lot in my music productions a long time ago. ;-)

Thanks Espen, I look forward to that video because I know it will be great!

I had a Mirage - was very fun to use with that inbuilt overdub sequencer

The TAL sampler is my preferred VST sampler/player. That should count for something. ;-)

Cheers! :D

@@EspenKraft FOR YOU ALSO HAPPINESS, SURE MY ENGLISH...KKK

Yes

This is exactly what I show in this video, if you watch it. ;-)

Probably because of the Drumulator hats and claps. It's definitely not the same drum track.

My S-10 is stock and it receives and send samples through sample dump.

@@EspenKraft I got mine just when the instrument came out - I guess the upgrade ROM was installed as standard in later batches of the instrument.

@@NONFamers Strange as I too got it new. It always could do that.

Thanks! I have done that already in the form of the S-550 video. With the RGB out going to the external screen, it's the same thing. The S-330 just have less memory than the S-550.

@@EspenKraft ok, I must have missed it.

I never wanted to do that for this video, but YOU can do it. ;- Cheers! :D

;o) I still use a tape recorder in my home studio setup. In the late 80s I borrowed a Yamaha VSS200 Sampler that had no disk drive or anything ,so the only way to backup samples was with a cassette recorder.And i still have the old tapes :) Cheers

Thanks! The TAL sampler is the best VST sampler (player) out there. It comes really close to a real 80s sampler in terms of sound.

Cheers! :D

It was for both. Director S is the name of that part of the software. I didn't show this here. The S-50/550/330 have that, but not the W-30, S-10/MKS-100. Of the 80s S samplers.

@@EspenKraft Please do a video on Director S and the rest of the software, this somehow sounds familiar to me, I dont have a BBC model B anymore but I do have an emulator and a spare Raspberry Pi 4, I know what I am doing this weekend!

I never used the Director S much, I always used hardware sequencers.

I do. ;-)

You are

Right, @@saren6538.

It's not about them sounding powerful or being powerful imo, I care only about the sound and the sound of 12 bit samplers is the sound of the 80s. ;-)

No shame in that.

Why not just check his videos. He's reviewed both the JD-800 and the JD-990.

@@nn99nn99 I will do that

One search phrase on top of my channel and you'll find it. ;-)

Thanks for saying! I use a face moisturizer every day. :P

@@EspenKraft haha!

In 1983, I was only 2, until November 5th of that year, of course.

Cheers!

Cheers! :D

I just bought two DJ 70's can't wait to dive all the way into it

I was thinking about the DJ70 the other day. Sold a few back in the early 1990’s when I worked in a music shop - loved the size of it

@@justinmerritt3843 you are a lucky guy.

I love reading old issues of Keyboard Magazine and they sure messed up often in their conclusions back then. If you're a cork sniffer I'm sure you could find differences, but the S-330 and 550 sound the same for all practical purposes.

Sounds like the Crumar BIT01.

Don't think I've ever seen one for sale around here.

i have 2 of them, it also takes a mouse and screen, never heard anything like it

I think the S770 is too clean, it does not have any mojo. It's powerful though so more of a workhorse, just like the Akai S1000 back in the day.

@@EspenKraft its very clean and sometimes I want a clean crisp sound so I will use the S770 for best sound quality via optical digital outs and ins.

@@Novaheart1998 Nothing wrong with that, we all do what we feel is the best solution for the sound we're going for.

@@EspenKraft Many people over the years have claimed that the S770 is the best sounding sampler of all time. There is a thread on Gearslutz in which the actual developers of the Roland S series samplers join a discussion and one of them describes in detail why the S770 actually makes anything you put into it sound better. They said no other sampler they've ever used comes close to doing what it does to samples. So claiming it's like an Akai S1000 and just a clean, sterile sampler is not really doing it justice.

Well, I have sold 3 of them lately actually. I still have the S-330 and the TX16W, but these are also for sale. ;-)

Bad move. ;-)

I do like your Videos alot Espen. Not being negative.

Yes I did, and much more. I explicitly say in the video you should check out the video description for more info. ;-) I always pepper my video descriptions with lots of additional information.

Sure, like I always say, check the video description. Cheers

The S760 is 16 bits, but it's a fine sampler for sure.

@@EspenKraft yeah - I bought it after the 12 bit craze as I wanted higher fidelity - but realise from your vid that 12 bit can still sound great - but back then I remember thinking it sounded more Amiga (computer audio) than musician fidelity - ha takes me back

Yeah, it was always a craze after the bits back then. 16 bits meant "better". I remember it vividly. I used the Akai S1000 and S1000 for all my major recordings back then, but I always preferred the Rolands for the sound. The Akai was the industry standard though and Roland were never Akai compatible. A very big mistake by them.

@@EspenKraft it was a big investment but really I don't think I ever used it enough - in a covers band we created a great drum map from it - so stupid to have lugged it and it's SCSI HDD around rather than just record it all to a smaller format and play along to that - with a midi file player we were kidding ourselves that it was more live that way. We did Altogether Now by the farm and we had a sound triggered on a Cheetah MS6 half way through, and me and the keyboard player always exchanged a look of satisfaction when it worked (sometimes didn't) all good fun - great videos btw - takes me back

Cheers! :D