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Do Inertial Frames Resolve The Twin Paradox? 

Dialect
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Or more precisely titled, does "switching" between inertial frames of reference adequately account for the asymmetry of the twin paradox? Our investigation of another highly-touted RU-vid solution leads to some surprising conclusions.
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26 окт 2020

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Комментарии : 818   
@johnrobertson93
@johnrobertson93 Год назад
Knowledge cannot resolve the twin paradox; either twin B is older than twin A or they are not. This means that there must be something physically different between A and B despite each having the ability to claim they are the twin at rest. A and B begin in the same inertial reference frame. Next, the twins move apart and then back together. Finally, twin A is found to be younger than twin B. What can be surmised about the difference between what happened to twin A and what happened to twin B? Twin B did not undergo a force accelerating them to a "faster inertial reference frame from when they were at time 0; only Twin A did. We know this because Twin A's clock has run slower (experienced less time) by comparison to Twin B's clock when they are brought back to the same point in spacetime and compared. Thus, relative acceleration to a faster inertial reference frame (from the imposition of a force) is the cause of time dilation. Can this tell us anything about General Relativity as well? Spacetime is curved by the interaction of masses. The greater the sum total of masses interacting, as well as the lesser the distance from each other, the greater the curvature between them. Also, according to General Relativity, the closer to the center of the greater mass, the slower time passes which suggests that spacetime is not merely curved, it may be infinitely extensible, and actually flowing towards mass; however, the greater the mass, and the closer to its center, the faster spacetime flows and the slower time passes. The lesser the mass and the further away one is from the center of mass, the slower spacetime flows through mass, and the faster time passes as the mass is accelerated through spacetime. In other words, the speed with which one moves through spacetime relative to an initial inertial reference frame will determine the local passage of time relative to the initial inertial reference frame. The key thing to remember is that there is no absolute inertial reference frame of spacetime, but there are relative inertial reference frames with respect to an initial inertial reference frame.
@A_Saddler
@A_Saddler 6 месяцев назад
@Dialect, I'm watching your videos in order, and with this one I'm wondering why nobody is pointing out the obvious asymmetry, which is that the younger twin will have some of his mass missing. Acceleration of mass isn't possible without sending a certain amount of mass or energy the opposite way. If we assume that the twins have perfect rockets that can accelerate with 100% efficiency by shooting light in the other direction, when the twins converge again, they shouldn't compare clocks but mass, and I would bet that the missing mass of the younger twin is exactly the amount of time he's younger by, if you convert that mass into time via e=mc^2. It also makes sense since if a twin shoots a small amount of mass, he'll age less since he'll accelerate slower, and more if he uses more mass.
@juhabach6371
@juhabach6371 2 года назад
Hey, Idk much as I am an eng. student ,but here is something : The one who is aceelarating/feeling force can make a difference. How ? Say they guy on the flight which takes off has juice in a glass, the.liquid is then going to make a tilted shape, as long as the acceleration exists. but there will be no such effect on the stationary twin's side. This distinction can be made by anyone (stationary or.moving twin).. and thus they cant say that their perspectives are equal. There is a clear difference between which is inertial and which is non-inertial.. even if the entire universe didn't exist for any reference.
@ErikBongers
@ErikBongers 11 месяцев назад
Again, as I said in the other video: the accelerating person will feel the acceleration, the other person will feel nothing. Acceleration is not relative. Perhaps "feel" doesn't sound scientific enough (although it is) and could be replaced with a very effective accelerometer: a ball being tossed up in the air. Both persons will see a quite different effect. So, you can't use this erroneous relativity as a basis for your reasoning.
@dialectphilosophy
@dialectphilosophy 11 месяцев назад
Einstein would disagree with you. He wrote quite extensively on how our knowledge of acceleration was only ever relative. Check out our upcoming video this week to learn more! (Additionally, check out our video Newton vs. Mach to learn why an accelerometer, and any such measuring instrument, could never measure absolute acceleration!)
@JR-ng9yo
@JR-ng9yo 11 месяцев назад
I agree. Acceleration is the only condition that breaks the symmetry of the 2 twins.
@stewiesaidthat
@stewiesaidthat 11 месяцев назад
@dialectphilosophy Einstein is an idiot who didn't understand the first thing about physics. Force equals Acceleration. NASA has proven that astronauts experience the same acceleration effect as their spaceship during liftoff with an accelerated heart rate. Your boy Einstein and his BS relativity theories state that their heart rate should be slowing down under an increased acceleration environment. Who are you going to believe? Some dweeb from the 1800's who knew nothing about physics? Or the organization that has put men on the moon? Has measured and documented the effects of acceleration on the human body?
@tyedee7552
@tyedee7552 9 месяцев назад
​@@stewiesaidthatDo you use GPS? If you do, then it may shock you to know that the satellites used by GPS were calibrated using Einstein's theory of GR. Also predicts phenomenon such as gravitational lensing and black holes with incredible accuracy. Just look at LIGO's gravitational wave observations.
@stewiesaidthat
@stewiesaidthat 9 месяцев назад
@tyedee7552 are you really that dumb. GPS does not use GR for calibration. Look it up yourself and quit quoting from your bible. GR was disproven when NASA put a man on the moon as they used Newtonian mechanics to do so. If you have a mind of your own, how does GR account for the fact that electronic devices like atomic clocks slow down when under acceleration but biological process speed up as evidenced by astronauts experiencing accelerated heart rates during lift-off? Doesn't Einstein physics dictate that biological process mirror mechanical processes? And how do you account for the fact that an astronaut's heart rate is nearly identical in an accelerated zero gravity environment as when stationary on earth? And how do you account for objects being accelerated in space also are being accelerated in time - radioactive decay - the mass of the ship being converted to radiant energy? Isn't that what was gleaned from E=MC^2? Mass is converted to energy as it is accelerated. Why does cold water have more mass than hot water? Why are the Breakthrough Starshot solar sale experimenters worried about heat build-up? Shouldn't they be trying to figure out a way to jettison that extra mass being created rather than trying to dispose of the extra energy that is being absorbed. If you knew anything at all about physics, you would know that the Hafele-Keating experiment disproved SR. The experiment proved that there was no time-dilation occurring as both clocks used the same amount of energy. It also proved that there was a preferred reference frame as it was possible to determine which frame was moving faster through space. GR and SR was resoundly disproven over 50 years ago, and yet you still cling to it? Why? Is it because of man's innate need to worship a god no matter what?
@eleventhchimp
@eleventhchimp 2 года назад
If you are going to solve this with sr, an acceleration is NOT relative, it is absolute. At least make an attempt to understand the topic before spreading this kind of misinformation. This is pure conspiratorial denialism. That said, all the examples of explanations you are showing that you say are disagreeing all give the same explanation. The asymmetry is because there are three inertial frames of reference: one for the twin staying at home, one for the travelling twin as he is going away, and one for him going back. The Lorentz transformation can be done for any of the three (we can view this considering any of them as stationary) and they will all agree on which twin ages more. It is, however, not the acceleration itself that is causing the difference, it is going from one inertial frame of reference to another, which you inevitebly do when accelerating.
@petpaltea
@petpaltea 2 года назад
Exactly. But then again, his channel is "Dialect," so we can say it is a "dialect of physics." ;) I don't think that he is necessarily conspiratorial, but he is genuinely questioning some accepted explanation of this problem. And that's a good thing. At least for me I can tell, that I have more closely watched all of the explanation because of this. I just hope, he takes criticism lightly and also consider it. Cannot say, I didn't finish watching his videos yet.
@marcv2648
@marcv2648 2 года назад
I posted a double blind twins experiment in the comments. Please tell me how you would work with reference frames in this experiment, because I think this all comes down to the application of reference frames.
@Osama_Abbas
@Osama_Abbas Год назад
The last part on Emmy's being confused is irrelevant 100%. It does not matter if she does NOT understand who is aging faster or slower for the paradox to be solved.
@Hecatonicosachoron
@Hecatonicosachoron Год назад
Ok here's a cheeky solution, assuming that quantum field theory doesn't go out of the window, the accelerated observer will feel Unruh radiation, whereas the inertial one won't. So there is theoretically an experiment that both observers can do (carrying a very acurate thermometer) to decide who was inertial. Or another way to say it is this, which does not assume a quantum field, just relativity. Smoothly accelerating frames have an event horizon. There are experiments to be done in order to infer the existence of these horizons in the case of the accelerated observer. Now, you can chose to draw the stationary / inertial observer in an accelerated coordinate frame. But the inertial observer would not experience the phenomena. So the accelerating observer would compare their calculations to what the inertial observer experienced and see that they were accelerating, but the intertial observer were. Furthermore, there is the case of pedagogy here... in so many iterations of the twin paradox we introduce extra descriptors, such as rockets, that have a shape that break the symmetry, a human anatomy, intuitions about a front direction and a back direction... Furthermore, many present the diagram as if the accelerating observer is moving with constant velocity and only "turns around (i.e. accelerates) at some point. This way, there is an almost instantaneous impulse force at the turning point. But it might be pedagogically better to talk about smoothly accelerating and decelerating observers, and observers who do not have distinctly human anatomy or use familiar space propulsion. In the end, what solves it is the understanding of inertia.
@tkimaginestudio
@tkimaginestudio 2 года назад
If Albert throws an apple towards the bottom of the spaceship, he will see the apple apparently move to the side as well (relative to his ship), while he is not in an inertial reference frame. If Emmy does the same, she'll never experience such a pseudo-force because no coordinate transformation will establish such a pseudo-force (only on the apple and not on the ship). If your "acceleration is relative" claim were true, Emmy's apple would somehow have to be linked to Albert's ship so that Emmy could experience the pseudo force as well. Only then the situation would be truly symmetrical. How are you suggesting that would work? Your videos are very well produced and it is great that you are sceptical, but you seem to be closed to accepting the very simple fact that it is possible to distinguish inertial frames from non-inertial frames without resorting to a third reference frame (e.g., an accelerometer calibrating place on earth). BTW, your epistemological route (speculating what observes need to know) is a complete dead end. Consciousness and knowledge does not come into this at all. If apples were automatically pushed towards the spaceship bottom, one of them would bounce against the back of the spaceship and the other would not. Physics does not need conscious observers.
@se7964
@se7964 2 года назад
If you don’t think epistemology and the scientific method are excruciatingly intertwined, you’d be ignoring 2+ millennia of philosophical and scientific thought and literature. I’d recommend his other video “Newton vs. Mach” - it explains why you would need a third inertial “reference” frame to resolve the twin paradox.
@tkimaginestudio
@tkimaginestudio 2 года назад
@@se7964 I did not say that epistemology has no place in physics. I only said that dialect's particular attempt to use epistemological considerations is ill-conceived. BTW, what is your response to my "moving apple" argument?
@relational7832
@relational7832 2 года назад
What is to distinguish between the real forces here and the pseudo ones? Given we are appealing only to the perceived difference in accelerations of the ball in the spaceship frame A and in another spaceship frame B observing A. *If by force we are only appealing to kinematic acceleration then it's perfectly reasonable to assume that in either frame any and all accelerations are attributable to unknown forces. . . regardless of whether in "reality" they are pseudo or not.* In the frame of spaceship B and the rest of the universe only the outer frame of the spaceship frame A is acted upon by a force. Within the frame of A it's everything but A that is being acted upon by a universal uniform force. To illustrate why appealing to purely kinematical concerns doesn't allow us the ability to distinguish between them please note the argument below against the usual definition of inertial/non-inertial from Classical mechanics: Premise 1.) An inertial frame is that which has no net force act upon it. Premise 2.) If a frame is inertial then it respects all conservation laws for energy/momentum within such a frame. Premise 3.) If a frame is acted upon by a net force then it is not inertial. Premise 4.) Let there be a uniform force field within which our system of interacting particles is positioned. Premise 5.) All particles and their relations to each other will be maintained among other monadic properties given the assumption of uniformity in the force field applied. Premise 6.) There is a net force acting upon these particles so they are therefore non-inertial. With respect to the rest of the universe, or any other inertial frame, they will accelerate via this fields' interaction with them. Premise 7.) All conservation principles locally are respected, energy/momentum, so it's inertial. Conclusion: A contradiction has been obtained from (6) and (7). Therefore, there is some assumption regarding the inertial/non-inertial distinction in Classical mechanics that requires a conceptual abandonment/modification. This means that while; Forces ==> Acceleration It means that, Acceleration =/=> Forces The focus on conservation principles is more damning as; Inertial == Conservation principles are locally respected Non-inertial =/= Inertial As i've shown, there are certain circumstances under which. . . acceleration is observed. . . forces are assumed by *philosophical presupposition* to be present in a non-static manner. . . but conservation principles are still respected. In my head the ability for conservation principles to be locally respected is more important as a definition of inertial-ness than any kinematical principle here. If this sounds familiar its because its a generalized version of Einstein's equivalence thought experiment for comparing gravitational interaction to that of pseudo-forces observed in non-inertial frames. Newton rather weakly found this out and its his sixth corollary in his Principia. Obviously, there is a fundamental error here within the Classical lens of the inertial/non-inertial distinction. So, how do we fix it? Is this 'fix' convention free?
@ToddDesiato
@ToddDesiato Год назад
He is apparently, IMO, confounding coordinate acceleration and proper acceleration, or he considers proper acceleration to simply be coordinate acceleration. They are not the same or defined the same way.
@magicbean4616
@magicbean4616 Год назад
Inertial frames are defined by whether systems in that frame obey newtons' first law. Systems in a non-inertial frame do not. An experiment can be done in the frame to check. For example throw an object perpendicular to relative motion of the rocket and earth and see how it behaves. If an object is thrown up on earth this object will always move straight up in both frames relative to the earth. Even when the rocket is accelerating. However if the object is thrown on the rocket during the turn around it will follow a curved path relative to the rocket in both frames, showing this frame is non inertial, not the earths. That's how you can resolve the problem either using inertial frames or acceleration being absolute. The original explanations are not wrong but this is.
@lih3391
@lih3391 Год назад
I think I see the problem with this video, what people claim is not that acceleration is absolute is some mystical way, but that you can't differentiate from different inertial frames. Although they do imply the same things, they sound much different, and you tend to think about things the wrong way too if you start with the first statement. The problem with acceleration explanations does not lie in representing things with coordinates. Thats not even a problem to begin with. You have to differentiate inertial reference frames with accelerating ones. Something can't tell what inertial frame it moves in, what velocity it is barreling through space in, relative to this or that. All it can tell is if it's accelerating or not. Let me clarify on that. All things moving in an inertial reference DO agree on the laws of physics. If the frame of reference IS accelerating, the laws of physics will be different, offset by that acceleration. In the example of you spinning yourself, if you observed the laws of physics while spinning, they would be different that if you weren't. I think its a fairly arbitrary choice that we choose the laws of physics to be one when people are not spinning or accelerating. But it's a fair choice because it makes things easier and because of the fundamental fact that you can't tell what velocity you move at, what inertial reference frame you are in, but you can see if you accelerate, again, the laws of physics change accordingly. You can't ask why it's like that because all people can say is that it's from observation. If inertial reference frames had the same properties as accerating one, the laws of physics would be different. The answer was acceleration all along igues
@gravitationalvelocity1905
@gravitationalvelocity1905 Год назад
I believe Prof Johnson from Fermi labs has it correct. It is being in two (or more) reference frames that causes the time to slow relative to the twin that was in just one reference frame. The example just using clocks on already moving frames/rockets demonstrates the point quite well. Acceleration (or force) is just a means by which a twin could change velocity and therefore reference frames. Knowing the amount and duration of that acceleration, however, is not enough to determine how much time dilation occurred. The acceleration only gives you the velocity difference, not the duration of the difference, which is what you need to calculate the net time dilation. The need for this additional information demonstrates that it is not the accelerationn itself that caused the time dilation. You only need to know how long the second twin was in each different reference frame (and the velocity difference). As to the question how does one determine if you are in a difference reference frame? This does not seem so hard. Different reference frames are identified by simply determining whether the distance between two objects is changing. That is all you need to know. Two objects in the same reference frame will maintain a constant distance from one another. Otherwise the distance will change. Again, you don't need to know or even have acceleration to calculate the time line difference between two paths if you just track the clocks it the two reference frames. This is the example of Prof Johnson of Fermi labs gave, where you simply perform synchronization of clocks when objects in difference reference frames pass each other thereby negating the need for physical acceleration. The same time delay will be seen in the clocks just tracking the time that passed in the two reference frames vs the clock in the single reference frame.
@nadirceliloglu7623
@nadirceliloglu7623 6 месяцев назад
Unfortunately, Dıalect's video here is full of flaws. This guy is probably trying to prove three things, 1. Other you tubers about relativity are wrong or have a lot of flaws in theır presentation. 2. Einstein was not quite right and his theories had a lot of flaws. He probably hates Albert Einsteİn,the Genius. Why? Like so many others,he is probably anti-semitic! 3. Mr. Dialect knows it all- which he does not unfortunately. I really wished he would.. As a physicist for 30 years,I am quite sure this guy is not a phycisist,but rather an enthusiastic PHILOSOPHER! Dialect is wasting our time.. Take it from a PHD physicist. Let me correct the followings, 1. Special relativity deals MAINLY with uniform motion,inertial frames in FLAT SPACETIME! Yes,acceleration can be also included in special relativity,BUT at that time ( 1905,when special relativity was developed),nothing was known about General Relativity and about THE SPECIAL ROLE of acceleration in General relativity. So,that is not a contradiction in Einstein's mind blogging theories,but rather due to lack of knowledge 1905 on the acceleration on time diation.( which came 10 years later) 2. The twin paradox: Einstein already provided the solution to the twin paradox( NOT A REAL PARADOX AFTER ALL) in his 1918 papers stating very explicitiy that acceleration is responsibie for NON-RECIPROCAL time dilation of the travelling twin. He states clearly in his paper that upon turning back,the travelling twin goes through acceleration which can be thought of causing a gravitational field to arise. He also clearly states that due to the moving stars around the spaceship,a gravitational fied is created.( NOT THAT A SUDDEN UNIFORM GRAVITATIONAL FIELD AROSE BECAUSE OF ACCELERATION AS DIALECT CLAIMS!!) Acceleration is the only cause for the travelling twin to stay younger. Here is another proof: Look at the worldline of the travelling twin and at the stay at home twin. Compare them with each other. What do you see? The stay at home's world's line is longer than the travelling twin's worldline, which proves that the travelling twin MUST remain younger.. Bingo.. Nothing more,nothing less. Why to complicate it further?
@richardepp8698
@richardepp8698 11 месяцев назад
Twins Paradox INTRODUCTION: The Twins situation is not paradoxical when the equations are used properly. The only valid equation for time dilation is the Lorentz Transformation, and the only variable it contains is velocity; and this velocity is not a relative term, but an absolute one. Therefore, the twins must not only agree on a “common” frame of reference, but agree to an “accurate” rest frame of reference. REST FRAME OF REFERENCE: We are aware of a “universal” rest frame of reference based on the dipole CMBR (Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation). Although not guaranteed to be the “true” rest frame of reference, all evidence supports that it is and until it is proven false it can be accepted as the “true” rest frame of reference. According to the Lorentz Equation any object at absolute rest will experience the greatest length of (true) time. The velocity of the sun relative to the CMB rest frame is 368 ± 2 km/s towards the constellation Leo, equating to a Lorentz Factor of 1.0000007534 for our Sun. Meaning that the sun loses 24 seconds per year or almost 40 minutes per century. The Earth twin will lose only 3.4437 minutes during the course of the 8.7 year experiment compared to the rest frame of reference. The Twins Experiment will consist of one twin in a spacecraft instantly accelerating to a constant 99.995% c towards Alpha Centuri A, sling shooting around its gas giant to return home, then instantly decelerating about Earth’s orbit. The second twin will, of course, be “stationary” on Earth’s surface travelling at 368 km/s (0.123% c) towards the constellation Leo. The first twin will be in free-fall the entire trip, including the sling-shot maneuver, and believe that he is in an inertial frame of reference. The second twin will feel the Earth’s gravity and perceive himself to be in an accelerated frame of reference. Rest time Event Earth time Alpha Centuri Spacecraft (days) (days) time (days) time (days) 0 Spacecraft leaves Earth 0 0 0 1,588.806072 Light of departure reaches Alpha Centuri A 1,588.804875 1,588.804875 15.887862 Light from spacecraft departure is visible 1,588.804875 1,588.885516 Spacecraft slingshots around Alpha Centuri A 1,588.884319 15.888657 Light from spacecraft slingshot is visible 3,177.689194 3,177.771033 Spacecraft arrives at Earth 3,177.768638 3,177.768638 31.777313 Light from spacecraft arrival visible 4,766.573513 Days lost compared to “rest time” 0.0023941260 0.0023941260 3,145.993719 CONCLUSION: The twin situation only becomes a paradox when the “true” fixed frame of reference is replaced by a “false” self-centred one; a concept that was disproved with Copernicus and should have been eliminated. Acknowledgment that one is not at the centre of the universe and proper use of the Lorentz Equation eliminates this paradox.
@angrymidget4728
@angrymidget4728 6 месяцев назад
I respect what you're trying to do, i.e. establish that acceleration is not absolute, but I can't help but feel something or another is being overly complicated. From my limited understanding, acceleration doesn't have to be absolute to conclude that 'space twin' ages slowly. It just has to be, uh, 'locally(?)' defined for the two twins' reference frames (inertial or not). Personally, to avoid complicated stuff, I just picture a suspended object within each ship that are both hanging in the same way to establish that both ships are in the same reference frame. As long as both experience no acceleration, the way the object hangs won't change. So even if the entire rest of the universe is just empty space, there is a way to tell which ship accelerated, at least relative to both of their 'initial' reference frames. What I'm trying to say is, neither of the twins are 'agreeing' that one is accelerating while the other isn't. Acceleration is not absolute. One ages while the other doesn't because one of them is changing their reference frame from what it used to be. They're aging differently from what they would have if they *didn't* change their reference frame. Twin A doesn't see B accelerating away and neither does B see A accelerating away. The acceleration is not relative to the other twin but relative to their own prior reference frames. Hope I was able to make my point of view clear.
@longrange957
@longrange957 6 месяцев назад
I have the same thought watching these videos. There are two identical accelerometers which both show no acceleration initially and then the traveling one shows acceleration. I don't see the problem here. (which may be my problem ((: )
@meleagant718
@meleagant718 Год назад
Could there be an asymmetry in the fact that, to turn around, the « moving » observer has to eject gases in the opposite direction ? In that case, the « static » observer hasn’t changed over the course of the experiment, while the « moving » one has splitted between the space ship and the emitted gas ? It means that both observers never really meet again, as a fraction of the « moving » observer is still moving in the opposite direction and never has a chance to compare clocks with the « static » observer
@tetraedri_1834
@tetraedri_1834 2 года назад
To state your point clearly, you should tell which assumptions you accept. It seems that you are only assuming the postulates of special relativity, in which case I see where you come from: how do we differentiate whether object is accelerated or the whole universe around that object is accelerated. Although this can be experimentally tested by accelerometer, the postulates of special relativity alone don't tell in which reference frames the accelerometer should be in rest (i.e. show zero acceleration), hence we have not really disambiguated the symmetry. You then reduce the universe into two objects. However, if there is nothing else in the universe and these objects are indivisible, then there is no way to have acceleration as it requires exchange of momentum. Hence, to perform the twin paradox you need slightly more complicated universe (at least three objects), in which case the frames of the twins are not symmetrical, hence the paradox can be resolved. Conclusion: you cannot isolate the problem to only containing the twins, as (at least) one of the twins should somehow interact with the rest of the universe for relative acceleration between the twins to occur. In the usual description of the twin paradox, the cause for acceleration is abstracted away in such a way that the other twin is in rest throughout the experiment. You seem to try to get rid of this abstraction, but doing so you must describe the system more fully than only the relative positions of the twins, which would disambiguate the symmetry.
@dialectphilosophy
@dialectphilosophy 2 года назад
Your conclusion and ours are the same. We do not believe you can isolate the problem to only two twins in an empty universe, because then constructs like "inertial-ness" become more and more difficult to define. The point of our twins-in-an-empty-universe thought experiment is to highlight this absurdity.
@tetraedri_1834
@tetraedri_1834 2 года назад
@@dialectphilosophy I see, although I understood a different message from your video (and the channel in general) that twin paradox has not yet been resolved. To me, the inertial frame solution is correct, as long as we agree on which frames are inertial (really it suffices to fix only one inertial frame). And it is fair to abstract this choice away, as the cause for acceleration is not relevant for the problem. However, I agree that this abstraction is not stressed enough in most discussions of the twin paradox, and should really be discussed to fully solve the paradox.
@iridium1118
@iridium1118 2 года назад
If the twins calibrate their identical accelerometers before departure, then only one will measure an acceleration. How is that not the asymmetry? I don't understand why you didn't address this.
@dialectphilosophy
@dialectphilosophy 2 года назад
Keep in mind that we're trying to answer the question of what breaks the symmetry of the paradox. If we take your answer to be correct, i.e., that the twins previously calibrating identical accelerometers in a known inertial frame before their journey and then using these instruments to measure differing accelerations produces the asymmetry, then you're saying the symmetry can only be considered broken once we draw upon the knowledge and context of a larger system (because an inertial frame must be provided, a-priori, in which the twins can initially calibrate their accelerometers). We can't then say acceleration broke the symmetry, but rather that acceleration relative to an inertial frame whose inertial quality was established a-priori broke the symmetry.
@iridium1118
@iridium1118 2 года назад
@@dialectphilosophy why must it be an inertial frame? If twin B is the one in the rocket, why not just have the twins calibrate in the frame of twin A? Who cares what kind of frame that is?
@eleventhchimp
@eleventhchimp 2 года назад
@@dialectphilosophy except that absent gravity (curved spacetime) an accelerometer does not have to be calibrated against anything. Acceleration is then measurable as absolute. It does not have to be measured in relation to anything else.
@eleventhchimp
@eleventhchimp 2 года назад
@pyropulse There is nothing in mathematics to suggest that the derivative of something relative has to be relative in physics. But you are kind of right; in gr acceleration is relative. If you are isolated from your surroundings in a box in flat space-time, there is no way for you to measure your position or velocity as none of those are properties of a single object, but rather a spatial relationship between objects. However, because of inertia, you can measure, very precicely and in a number of ways what your acceleration is. You do not need to reference that to any other object. You are accelerating relative to your self. It is in this sense acceleration is absolute on sr.
@krzysztofciuba271
@krzysztofciuba271 Год назад
?write the wave equation in both systems and see if there is anti-symmetry! do you understand the term "system" at all? More:just switch the apostrophes in Lorentz equation when switching from the "at rest" system to the "moving one"! Do u comprehend at all that laws of physics are covariant,i.e the same in ALL systems, interstitials, and non-inertial? Use your non-ape brain (in u have it) and not that one in textbooks of online "lectures" (also of universities)
@xjuhox
@xjuhox 2 года назад
Why are people talking about acceleration when the "paradox" is all about time and distance (that form the spacetime Minkowski metric)? The stationary twin can have infinitely many accelerations and rest frames if she just walks in circles when waiting her twin to return. But note: the stationary twin travels a straight line in spacetime, whereas the travelling twin does not, hence the *proper time* of stationary twin between the start and end points (in spacetime) is more than of the other twin (who travels more in distance).
@Elrog3
@Elrog3 2 года назад
"The stationary twin can have infinitely many accelerations and rest frames if she just walks in circles when waiting her twin to return." - Are you aware of calculus? And did you miss the prior video? The math is done by taking an integral over the acceleration. Going in a circles while waiting cancels itself out and doesn't change anything.
@xjuhox
@xjuhox 2 года назад
@@Elrog3 The point is that the stationary twin can move locally but it does not affect much her spacetime curve that remains nearly straight line.
@Daetelus
@Daetelus Год назад
Assuming, for the sake of argument, that one frame experiencing force while the other frame isn't experiencing force is all that's necessary to break the symmetry, then it wouldn't matter if any observer knows which one is the one experiencing force. The solution, then, would not rest on any one "knowing" which twin will be older, only that one of them "will be" older, because that twin "did" experience force whether they knew it or not.
@doodeedah6409
@doodeedah6409 Год назад
Why does only one of the twins should experience force in this paradox? The paradox is meant to be symmetrical: both twins are travelling in opposite directions with identical rockets that generate identical (but opposite) forces. Both of them will thus experience the same amount of force. When both twins turn around and meet again, who’s older?
@Daetelus
@Daetelus Год назад
@@doodeedah6409 In the usual discussions of the paradox, one observer is left on earth, so only one observer has rockets. The paradox is not necessarily "meant" to be symmetrical. Resolutions to the paradox aim to show that it's not symmetrical. In the case you describe, I think the situation would be, in fact, symmetrical. But Special Relativity still can't provide a solution, since the situation under analysis still deals with non-uniform motion. I believe the solution in GR would be that neither twin is older; they remain the same age.
@doodeedah6409
@doodeedah6409 Год назад
@@Daetelus Wouldn’t that be a paradox if they do end up the same age? They’re clearly travelling at a velocity relative from each other, yet they don’t experience time dilation from each other. That would demonstrate that time dilation predicted by special relativity is wrong.
@Daetelus
@Daetelus Год назад
@@doodeedah6409 According to General Relativity, I think, they would each see the other's time run slower as they gain distance from each other but see the other's time run faster as they approach each other. By the time they meet up again, the total amount of time passed is the same for both. As for what GR says would happen if they just came to a stop (relative to each other) while still far apart, I don't know, probably something like both twins are younger than the other, which IS a paradox and nonsense and why I don't actually believe any of it.
@doodeedah6409
@doodeedah6409 Год назад
@@Daetelus Hmm tbh I’ve never heard that time would go faster/slower depending on whether the motion is gaining/losing distance from each other. I thought it’s just about the velocity, regardless of their relative position from each other.
@leadersheir9377
@leadersheir9377 3 года назад
So good to have another video from you! More of them please!
@Alexcoman51
@Alexcoman51 Год назад
9:58 your argument about requiring prior knowledge to determine an inertial reference frame is ridiculous. All of physics requires prior knowledge, science is based off of testable observations. You just say this is order to claim that forces are relative which is a claim I have never heard from any other scientist. Maybe instead of asking other content creators to update “false” claims you should begin by doing so yourself
@-_Nuke_-
@-_Nuke_- Год назад
Objective reality should be deductive not based on non local prior knowledge
@Alexcoman51
@Alexcoman51 Год назад
@@-_Nuke_- it is deductive, that’s why we have a body of science dedicated to conducting experiments and proving scientific knowledge. That’s how we discovered the concept of forces and inertial frames. His argument was something along the lines of discrediting forces because it requires a prior knowledge of physics. That’s where he lost me
@Alexcoman51
@Alexcoman51 Год назад
@@-_Nuke_- as another thought experiment imagine you are in an empty box with a single item that is stationary with respect to the box. Suddenly the object begins to move until it collides with a wall. The only way this is possible is because the box was accelerated because there is nothing acting on the object. This cannot happen in a refrence frame at rest. If you claim the box is at rest you must explain the motion of the object inside somehow and this cannot be done. This is why people say that acceleration cannot be relative and accelerated frames are not at rest
@-_Nuke_-
@-_Nuke_- Год назад
@@Alexcoman51 The twin paradox is unsolved. It requires knowledge about the universe that we still don't have. About energy, entropy, mater, mass etc. We can only explain the paradox because it just works that way so we are confident that that's how the universe works, and the way that this is done, is by basically saying that the Earth is an inertial frame because it... looks like one... The spaceship is designed to be able to accelerate, so naturally we assign the non inertial frame to the spaceship And now the paradox comes undone, the symmetry is already broken before we even begun. But like Dialect said, if we just have 2 objects inside an empty universe, then we can't figure out who the less ageing one will be. That's where special relativity reaches its limit of what it can say about reality. Luckily we don't live in an empty universe, thus the most abstract version of the paradox is not a very big practical issue;
@Alexcoman51
@Alexcoman51 Год назад
@@-_Nuke_- earth is an inertial refrence frame because it is non accelerated. In order for the space shop to return it must accelerate to change directions. That is how we know
@drkarlsmith
@drkarlsmith Год назад
Can you explain why my thinking is wrong? My instinct would be to dispense with the notion of acceleration and instead say that F = (mv)/t. Therefore, the twin can be said to experience a force only if its momentum changes. However, because momentum is conserved at every instant there must be some other mass which all observers will agree changed momentum at precisely the same time as the twin. I think that means that this supposed third mass must have negligible spatial separation from the supposedly accelerating twin, at the moment of momentum shift, otherwise there will be disagreement about whether or not the twin and the mass changed momentum at the same time. So now let us go back to empty space with only two twins. The twins are moving apart at .5C (or whatever). Then that situation reverses and they are closing the distance at (.05c). The question is which twin (it can be both but lets set that aside for a second) experienced a change in momentum. Well, if Alice says it is Bob, then she is required to find Bob's momentum-balancing mass somewhere in the universe. Shouldn't be hard since it will be the only thing besides her and Bob. Same thing for Bob, he must find Alice's momentum balancing mass. Off-the-cuff it seems like there can be no disagreement because any alleged momentum balancing mass must have the opposite momentum of the twin for whom it balances. But, I something feels not right about that. Perhaps it is the difficulty in measuring the momentum of a mass that is now far from them? In any case, I think demanding that the momentum balance be shown to have changed momentum at the same moment that the twin did pins it down because the mass must be in the same place relative to the twin as measured from both frames of reference. Side note: As a quick heuristic, if the twins are the only objects in the universe then when they meet again, one is likely to be missing some of its mass. So that is the guilty party. I say likely because I am not 100% certain that the only available balancing mass is some mass that once a part of the twin's ship but it certainly seems that way.
@DemonetisedZone
@DemonetisedZone Год назад
This is the best videos i have seen on this subject. Hope you make plenty more videos my friend👍
@finbarcurtin6402
@finbarcurtin6402 3 года назад
So, if I am understanding correctly, the essence of your argument is that because acceleration is relative to your inertial frame and the forces required for acceleration are impossible to objectively measure, there is no way to tell which twin will experience time dilation relative to the other. So, is the goal of this RU-vid series to point out that this is a serious scientific and philosophical problem, or do you have a solution that you are leading us toward? We know that ONE of the twins does experience time dilation, so there must be something that make the situation assymetric. Or, the assumptions about acceleration truly being relativistic are wrong. Your videos are really well done, and you obviously have a solid background in physics and philosophy. But has anyone in proper academia touched this subject in the same way you are? This is just such a famous problem that it would be wild if it remained without a solution and these are original ideas you are bringing up.
@dialectphilosophy
@dialectphilosophy 3 года назад
Thank you very much! You've definitely got the gist of our video, and we're glad we were able to get our point across! At this point, while we're looking for solutions, we're mostly pointing out what we see as a problem of some epistemological/philosophical significance. Our next video will treat on Einstein's solution to the paradox, and how it impacts the issues we've raised. If you bring up such issues in academic circles, you're more or less likely to get scoffed at -- the assumption is that if you don't think the twin paradox is resolved it's because you don't understand relativity; moreover the idea of acceleration as objective is so deeply ingrained in the physics community that to question it is perceived as absurd. This is despite that even Einstein himself disagreed with the idea of absolute motion, which he claimed "made no kinematical sense", and which for a time he believed that GR had done away with. Of course, empirically speaking, we always observe acceleration as something distinct; so the mystery, from our point of view then, is what gives acceleration this unique, objective quality, despite the fact that it must be defined relationally? You can find a few papers here and there on the subject, but nothing which delves as far as we've gone. Ultimately, we feel that this problem has been dragging us towards a confrontation between our understanding of what constitutes rational knowledge vs. observation. So we're interested in seeing where it leads.
@ondrejvacha5094
@ondrejvacha5094 3 года назад
@@dialectphilosophy I find your videos on the subject interesting. But in my opinion it should be clearly stated that what you are doing is sort of alternative view on the subject. The way you present the videos is misleading as one thinks you present the mainstream view just on a deeper level.
@nadirceliloglu7623
@nadirceliloglu7623 6 месяцев назад
Unfortunately, Dıalect's video here is full of flaws. This guy is probably trying to prove three things, 1. Other you tubers about relativity are wrong or have a lot of flaws in theır presentation. 2. Einstein was not quite right and his theories had a lot of flaws. He probably hates Albert Einsteİn,the Genius. Why? Like so many others,he is probably anti-semitic! 3. Mr. Dialect knows it all- which he does not unfortunately. I really wished he would.. As a physicist for 30 years,I am quite sure this guy is not a phycisist,but rather an enthusiastic PHILOSOPHER! Dialect is wasting our time.. Take it from a PHD physicist. Let me correct the followings, 1. Special relativity deals MAINLY with uniform motion,inertial frames in FLAT SPACETIME! Yes,acceleration can be also included in special relativity,BUT at that time ( 1905,when special relativity was developed),nothing was known about General Relativity and about THE SPECIAL ROLE of acceleration in General relativity. So,that is not a contradiction in Einstein's mind blogging theories,but rather due to lack of knowledge 1905 on the acceleration on time diation.( which came 10 years later) 2. The twin paradox: Einstein already provided the solution to the twin paradox( NOT A REAL PARADOX AFTER ALL) in his 1918 papers stating very explicitiy that acceleration is responsibie for NON-RECIPROCAL time dilation of the travelling twin. He states clearly in his paper that upon turning back,the travelling twin goes through acceleration which can be thought of causing a gravitational field to arise. He also clearly states that due to the moving stars around the spaceship,a gravitational fied is created.( NOT THAT A SUDDEN UNIFORM GRAVITATIONAL FIELD AROSE BECAUSE OF ACCELERATION AS DIALECT CLAIMS!!) Acceleration is the only cause for the travelling twin to stay younger. Here is another proof: Look at the worldline of the travelling twin and at the stay at home twin. Compare them with each other. What do you see? The stay at home's world's line is longer than the travelling twin's worldline, which proves that the travelling twin MUST remain younger.. Bingo.. Nothing more,nothing less. Why to complicate it further?
@Etc2496
@Etc2496 2 года назад
The true solution to the twin's paradox is that in the usual example the twins are taking different paths through spacetime, and these paths are not defined using coordinate systems, so they remain the same in all reference frames. This means that the arc lengths of these paths would in general be different and invariant and since the proper time elapsed for each twin is defined as the arc length of the paths each twin traced, which are timelike, this means that each twin will measure a different proper time passing compared to the other twin when they reunite.
@kylelochlann5053
@kylelochlann5053 2 года назад
The parent comment is perfectly correct and consist with how the twin paradox is analyzed in relativity.
@user-yx3wk7tc2t
@user-yx3wk7tc2t Год назад
11:13 An observer doesn't need knowledge about the sources of a force in order to observe the effects of the force. The laws of physics play out regardless of who knows what. What knowledge exactly do you mean anyway? 12:05 What exactly do you mean by "defined globally" and "defined locally"? When twin B bounces off an obstacle (for example the particles of the burning rocket fuel), his speed changes in any inertial frame of reference. I don't understand what you consider problematic about this explanation.
@tom123b
@tom123b Год назад
What does undergoing a sudden change in acceleration at a turn-around point have to do with biological aging? The idea that one twin will age faster than the other is a conflation of measurement with reality.
@user-yx3wk7tc2t
@user-yx3wk7tc2t 10 месяцев назад
@@tom123b I had written a nice answer months ago (in a nutshell: "everything is relative", there is no absolute concept of simultaneity), but someone (maybe RU-vid) has deleted it. Had you seen it?
@tom123b
@tom123b 10 месяцев назад
@@user-yx3wk7tc2t Never put a link or the name of RU-vid competitor in a comment, or it instantly disappears.
@janvandergaag
@janvandergaag Год назад
There is a way to resolve the paradox without any accelerations or forces, and to isolate the 'switching' of frames, but it involves triplets not twins. Consider Alice, Bob en Chris: Alice stays on earth, Bob leaves Earth with velocity +v and Chris is approaching Earth with velocity -v. All velocities are constant w.r.t. each other, no one is accelerating. At some point P Bob and Chris pass each other, both keeping their constant velocity. At a later time Chris arrives at Earth, completing a triangle in spacetime with Bob and Alice. Here are three inertial frames. Now, one could calculate the proper time B of Bob’s interval from earlier Earth to meeting point P and the proper time C of Chris' interval from P to later Earth, and add them together to find out that the result is shorter than Alice’s proper time. But -- one would be adding a value from ONE inertial frame to a value from ANOTHER inertial frame. As none of Alice, Bob or Chris is switching frames, who is? It is WE, the ones calculating, who switch from one frame to another. We are adding apples to oranges, so to speak. Normally, adding two values from different frames does not have a physical meaning but in this case the two intervals share an endpoint (P) and together form a potential single trajectory. This actually makes the prediction that, were a single entity to traverse the trajectory B + C (with reflection at P) it would experience a shorter proper time than A. The important fact here is that Bob and Chris stay in different inertial frames, irrespective of what inertial frames ‘fundamentally’ are. Neither of them switches frames, it is we who are adding things from different frames, getting a surprising result. N.B. All this hinges on the assumption (fact!?) that two inertial frames being different is an absolute. I don’t see how Bob and Chris could occupy the same inertial frame especially going in opposite directions at their meeting point P.
@joshuapasa4229
@joshuapasa4229 3 года назад
Great video! Do you have a solution that you came to by your self? I was struggling with the twin paradox for a long time before sitting down and thinking about what it meant to accelerate. I realized that you need a source as you mentioned in your video, so I guess that I'm in that thought camp. One thing I'm confused about with your issue is that you stated that if the observer can't tell who is interacting with a force field then since they don't know then it would change the result. How would it do this? Since in theory, there is always a way of detecting who is experiencing the interaction then doesn't this mean that the time dilation will always occur to the observer who is interacting with the field. Why would our ignorance matter?
@dialectphilosophy
@dialectphilosophy 3 года назад
Hey, thanks for watching, and great question! You’re getting at a very subtle but important distinction. Empirically speaking, we would not expect our level of relative knowledge to impact reality (unless we’re talking QM) so naturally we should be able to construct a model which reflects this. The problem is the current model requires complex inferential statements in order to distinguish which frame among a given class of reference frames is inertial. But this inferential knowledge is based off of observations of even larger classes of systems - global knowledge whose availability to local observers is not describable under any current framework. Because of this, if we restrict our paradox to twins in empty space, we must specify how and where they acquire this knowledge. If it can only come from a larger system, then presumably they cannot access it. Without this prior knowledge then, the model’s definition of an inertial frame no longer functions to distinguish the twins’ situations. So if you assert that our current models are accurate descriptions that correspond to reality, you have to concede that prior knowledge is a must-have for our twins. But we can also conceive of a scenario within said framework (twins in empty space) where there is no way for the twins to acquire this knowledge. Thus, their level of knowledge becomes an arbitrary parameter that we could alter at will, and in doing so, jeopardize the consistency of the framework. This is of course a complex topic we summed up very briefly in the video, and we plan on pursuing it further in future works.
@robertbrandywine
@robertbrandywine 3 года назад
@@dialectphilosophy Why, after talking about why acceleration isn't important to understand the paradox did you then jump back to discussing the problem of telling who is accelerating? I think the main issue is the relativity of simultaneity. With the two moving frames, the clocks at each end appear to be unsynchronized in such as a way as to account for the missing time.
@cykkm
@cykkm 2 года назад
To be fair, Don's exposition (FWIW, he follows the Wheeler & Taylor book) is misrepresented. No mass is involved, and thus nothing experiences acceleration in this thought experiment. The experiment setup involves three relatively inertial frames, each containing a clock at their respective origin. With respect to the frame A, frames B1 and B2 move with the opposite velocities along a single axis, such that their origins meet pairwise with a zero spacetime separation in three separate events. The initial conditions are such that the order (that would be agreed upon by all inertial observers, naturally) of these zero-separation events is: 1. B1 coincides with A. At this moment B1 reads A's clock and resets its own clock to the same value ("twins separate"). 2. B2 coincides with B1. Similarly, B2 resets its clock to the B1's clock ("twin B instantly reverses its direction"). 3. B2 coincides with A ("twins reunite"). At this moment, clocks in both A and B2 are read and compared. In other words, there is no caricature (and massive) Einstein physically jumping from B1 to B2. Each event coincides in spacetime with the origin in each pair of frames, and only involves transfer of information, not of mass; the whole setup is entirely kinematic. Note that none of the frames can be designated "privileged" in any sensible way.
@gravitationalvelocity1905
@gravitationalvelocity1905 Год назад
Yes, Don's explanation is correct. It is being in multiple frames that cause the difference in passed time.
@dorax1876
@dorax1876 3 года назад
Wow I m really waiting for your video And glad to see you uploaded :) Never stop uploading
@Rastlov
@Rastlov Год назад
I really enjoy this channel. It helps me understand the concepts by exploring faulty reasoning and challenging me to figure out what is wrong or missing. ..or is it?
@Rastlov
@Rastlov 6 месяцев назад
@@nadirceliloglu397 Yes. It's like one of those pictures where you have to find all the things that are wrong. Like a clock with the numeral 3 is reversed and 11 is where 7 should be, and there is an anvil floating on a string instead of on the ground.
@marka380
@marka380 Год назад
I think you will find that different videos bring "different" solutions depending on what details they think viewers will want to see.
@EpsilonIsGreaterThan
@EpsilonIsGreaterThan 3 года назад
Can't we define an inertial frame as one in which an accelerometer reads zero? If not, what does an accelerometer measure?
@dialectphilosophy
@dialectphilosophy 3 года назад
Unfortunately the concept of the accelerometer is highly problematic. For one, it only measures the acceleration of the accelerometer relative to the observer. To turn this relative acceleration into “absolute” acceleration, that information has to be paired with outside information not intrinsic to the system - we address this idea a little in the latter half of this video. Secondly, an accelerometer requires certain prior calibration - for instance a mass on a string that compresses could tell you that your frame is accelerating, or it could also mean that your frame was de-accelerating and is now inertial. This calibration requires memory and that again is linked to information outside the system.
@corwin-7365
@corwin-7365 3 года назад
@@dialectphilosophy said: _Secondly, an accelerometer requires certain prior calibration - for instance a mass on a string that compresses could tell you that your frame is accelerating, or it could also mean that your frame was de-accelerating and is now inertial._ You can calibrate your accelerometer (without outside information) by removing the mass from the spring and letting it adjust to its neutral setting, then adding the mass back to the spring and seeing if the reading changes. Note: I'm assuming an ideal (massless) spring. In practice the spring will have _some_ mass, however so long as we pick an object to attach to the spring whose mass is significantly greater than that of the spring then the offset will be negligible.
@dialectphilosophy
@dialectphilosophy 3 года назад
@@corwin-7365 “So long as we pick an object to attach to the spring whose mass is significantly greater than that of the spring...” This “picking” you speak of is just another example of importing information into the system from the outside. In order to calibrate an accelerometer without resorting to outside information, we would need a way to first measure the respective proportion of these two masses. Otherwise, if we “pick” the mass of the object to be significantly greater than that of the spring, then we are right back at importing information from the outside environment, since only interactions with the outside world could confirm such an assumption.
@corwin-7365
@corwin-7365 3 года назад
@@dialectphilosophy not true. All I need to do is pick up the spring and shake it to feel how massive it is. Ditto with the mass I attach to it.
@EpsilonIsGreaterThan
@EpsilonIsGreaterThan 3 года назад
@@dialectphilosophy What if your "accelerometer" was just a mass that you released - if it falls, you're not in an inertial frame. No calibration is required for that, right? Just local observation of whether a body at rest remains at rest.
@johnschultz4345
@johnschultz4345 2 года назад
"Acceleration is, by definition, a purely relative affair." Proper accelerations (i.e. - local accelerations that cause deviations from inertial movement) can be measured without any reference to any fixed external frame. If I put you in a black box floating in space above Earth and then start applying an acceleration to it, then your box and you will experience that acceleration and you can measure it without reference to any fixed external frame. Furthermore, if I begin to apply 1000 g's of acceleration to your box for an extended period of time, then you will be turned into bloody pulp and you cannot correctly assert instead "No, it was actually the other twin that was accelerating (and experiencing forces/accelerations) away from me instead." I still *REALLY* don't understand how you can be getting something this obvious and basic wrong. To your query about building an accelerometer without any preexisting knowledge of your motion, that is easily done. Get / construct a bunch of equivalent springs. Attach one end of the springs to the inside of a hollow sphere whose radius is somewhat larger than the springs' length when they aren't stretched. Then attach all of the other ends of the springs to a mass such that the forces of the springs on the mass should all cancel one another out (i.e. - pair them up so that the line along each pair of matched springs goes through the center of the mass + sphere). Thereafter, If any of the springs stretches differently than the others or, equivalently, the central mass deviates from being perfectly centered in the sphere, then you are not in an inertial frame and are experiencing forces / accelerations. From the particulars of the stretching / central mass deviation, then you can determine the direction of your proper acceleration and have some rough notion of its magnitude (e.g. - more vs. less). Most importantly to this conversation though, you can easily determine whether you are in an inertial frame or not and none of this requires calibration to an a priori known inertial frame. EDITED - for a clearer and more concrete description of a universal accelerometer.
@dialectphilosophy
@dialectphilosophy 2 года назад
If an observer is in a black box with a bunch of springs and masses, the only way they could draw conclusions about their state of motion from those springs and masses is if they were aware of the information governing the behavior of those springs. For instance, for the observer to know whether he or she were at rest, they would have to know what length of the spring corresponds to the length the spring would take in an inertial frame. The only way to know what length corresponds to the length the spring would take in an inertial frame would be to have previously measured that length of the spring in a frame already known to be inertial (such as in a laboratory back on Earth). Proper acceleration is defined only relative to inertial frames. How inertial frames are defined is still exceedingly ambiguous within the context of our modern theories. Our next video actually deals with this subject, keep an eye out for it!
@juhabach6371
@juhabach6371 2 года назад
observing a glass.of water in a non inertial frame.is more than enough to distinguish it from.inertial frame. Read my answer int the comment.
@gravitationalvelocity1905
@gravitationalvelocity1905 Год назад
​@@dialectphilosophy Accelerative fames are not relative. And it is easy to tell whether two inertial frames are different by just checking if the distance between two objects in those frames are the same or changing. All parties will agree on whether distance is changing, although perhaps not on the rate of that change.
@hosh1313
@hosh1313 Год назад
I have 2 clocks together and synced. I move them apart in a completely mirror image of each other and then bring them to rest at a distance, again, in a mirror image way, and they both stop running and show their final values i.e. all accelerations, decelerations and constant velocities happen at exactly the same time and for the same duration in opposite directions. Relativity says one must be slower and the other advanced - but which one is which? From the frame of reference of the starting point, both dilated identically and are thus still perfectly synced? From the frame of reference of either clock however, the other clock is slower? ?
@thatguywiththepencil
@thatguywiththepencil Год назад
I NEED AN ANSWER TO THIS!!! @DIALEKT
@tyedee7552
@tyedee7552 9 месяцев назад
Dialect's point is that this is an unresolved paradox. He is criticizing "solutions" for being wrong solutions to the wrong problem.
@ekki1993
@ekki1993 Год назад
I don't think the analogy of observers understanding why one ship is moving is properly used here. Chemicals don't know chemistry and, still, they act according to a very complex set of rules. The hypothethical example where the particles are the only thing in the universe leaves out how can they accelerate and change directions in the first place. Things that get forces applied to them leave traces besides them accelerating.
@jaymzs8221
@jaymzs8221 7 месяцев назад
Excellent! Keep up the good work!
@CausaArtium
@CausaArtium 6 месяцев назад
Wait a second. In the previous videos, I took your statements about how things resolve if the observers agree as a figure of speech. Are you suggesting that the resolution of the twins paradox depends upon the opinions of the twins? I always read the problem as meaning that IF A measures, he'll find this; if B measures, he'll find that. But I didn't think they actually had to measure it. Are you saying that this is an example of the macro world relying, like quantum, upon measurement? Somehow I don't think that's where your argument was leading. I would have thought that the physics doesn't care what the twins think - the fact that WE can measure things from both points of view, and that we can establish either twin as our reference point, grounds the paradox. If the twins were selected from among the youtube speakers your criticizing, who ignore the basic relativity of motion and acceleration and therefore agree that B is the one who accelerated, that should change nothing. When they meet, one should appear older, and the paradox then arises. If we tested this in practice, we don't know what would happen. But they would see - something, there's no getting around that. Or are you genuinely asserting that opinion and measurement change what they would see if they followed the dictates of the test and then actually met, in the real world?
@AdamIsaacs1
@AdamIsaacs1 2 года назад
could we resolve this with each pilot just being a single charged particle and see if it emits EM waves? also, if its a hydrogen atom, we could see a lag in the electrons wave function before it responds to the protons EM field, or vice-versa, if it undergoes acceleration, right? i get that force isnt truly felt, just interpreted, but dont these particles have fundamental properties that could always determine which one actually went non-inertial? or would your response be something like "how does the EM field know that particle moved and not the other particle?"? ill admit im thoroughly puzzled. in the macroscopic sense, it seems easy to use accelerometers. but if we go to 2 truly neutral, fundamental particles in flat, empty spacetime, there is no way to establish which clock should tick slower.
@lorigulfnoldor2162
@lorigulfnoldor2162 5 месяцев назад
How can acceleration be a "relativistic" matter if one can even die from acceleration big enough? Let's imagine a thought experiment where Albert accelerates so fast that he dies from too many G. From his point of view, taken as "immobile", he lives and Emmy dies because of this super-killing acceleration. Does it make him Shroedinger's Albert then - alive and dead at the same time? Also, Albert does not need to have any knowledge at all to die from "too many G". He can as well be infant!Albert, placed in the rocket at birth, and still he will be killed by too big of acceleration all the same! And he could even be a clock sentimentally called "Albert" and STILL be destroyed by acceleration. It is NOT "uniform changing of all the speed of all the rocket", rocket is a non-absolutely rigid body that undergoes acceleration NOT "all-at-once".
@lorigulfnoldor2162
@lorigulfnoldor2162 4 месяца назад
@@kamilziemian995 If we are being charitable to the author, we could imagine the rocket being automatic, turning without Albert doing anything, etcetera. Still, even if Albert himself did nothing, he surely would feel the inertial forces acting on his body - the very forces that would NOT act on Emmy in ANY way.
@nickcunningham6344
@nickcunningham6344 4 месяца назад
If force is defined by F=ma, then it is perfectly reasonable for Albert to say that Emmy and the Earth are experiencing a force. It's just that all of Emmy and the Earth's mass accelerate uniformly, so Emmy does not die. All parts of Emmy, including her innards, accelerate the same relative to each other, so it is as if they did not move at all from Emmy's perspective. And from Albert's perspective, regardless of whatever he is _feeling,_ he can claim that this is the case. Force is simply mass times acceleration, and from Albert's pov, mass is accelerating away from him. And this solution still relies on consciousness, which is just bad science.
@lorigulfnoldor2162
@lorigulfnoldor2162 4 месяца назад
@@nickcunningham6344 Can not his innards be still crushed if he is totally unconscious? Can not some doll of a human being with imitation of innards still have its fake innards be crushed?
@dilutioncreation1317
@dilutioncreation1317 3 месяца назад
Acceleration alone doesn't kill you. If you are in free fall you can be accelerating at any number of Gs and you won't feel it
@lorigulfnoldor2162
@lorigulfnoldor2162 3 месяца назад
@@dilutioncreation1317 why do then pilots pass out or even die from Gs?
@bernardsmith4464
@bernardsmith4464 3 года назад
Tremendously interesting. Long held questions. But, if I got this right. Twin A in her space ship sees her twin B flash by going constant .99 c. Twin B travels out , say 5 ly, and slams on the retros to a screeching stop and turns around back to Twin A. it makes no sense to me that his one moment of stopping (deaccelerating) instantly changes B's age relative to A. Or what about B not stopping, but making a long winding loop (keeping v constant). Are we now going to rely on the acceleration due to change of direction? Thanks. Keep it coming.
@dialectphilosophy
@dialectphilosophy 3 года назад
Great question. There are many variants of the twin paradox in which the motion is described in different ways -- going in circular orbits in non-Minkowskian spacetimes for instance. There the results are actually very counter-intuitive; in such a scenario the non-accelerated twin actually ages less. We'll be tackling those in future videos.
@eldarr0uge482
@eldarr0uge482 3 года назад
I think I clearly belong to the apriorism camp tbh, and I don't think you need extensive physics knowledge to "feel" if you are accelerating. It is true that we have to introduce fictious forces to account for the acceleration of one frame of reference with respect to the other. Introducing those fictious forces is a symetric process to describe the movement, that is introducing them to describe Emmy's movement in Albert's frame of reference is just as valid and will yield the same results as using them to describe Albert's motion in Emmy's perspective. However, if it is Albert who fires his rocket, he will be the one clearly feeling the acceleration. It doesn't require physics knowledge, just like a kid in a car feels the acceleration and his helium balloon will move towards the front while he is pushed back. You can mesure stress being induced in the materials. Now that I think about it, what if a planet just appeared behing Albert and its gravity would make him accelerate and then disapeared, ie, what if all Albert's molecules were subject to the same force, what would he feel. I may not have understood your point completely so I'll watch the video again and keep pondering about it though.
@serektaibah4091
@serektaibah4091 3 года назад
imagine that both albert and emmy fired their rockets away from each others ( so both feels the force ) traveled a certain distance at a constant speed then returned and you will still find a problem
@batcoifgaming7815
@batcoifgaming7815 2 года назад
@@serektaibah4091 In that case they would be the same age.
@Nehmo
@Nehmo Год назад
So, is Dialect right and the rest of the RU-vid Twin Paradox videos wrong? Do I have to figure out this myself?
@stewiesaidthat
@stewiesaidthat Год назад
All of the youtubers are wrong. To figure it, how back to the atomic clock and ask yourself, why is one clock slower than the other? The answer is redshift. Motion causes redshift, which causes electronic devices to run slower. Second question : Does redshift affect organic life? Answer no. Problem solved. There is no age difference. Further study. What causes something to age? Answer, An applied force. What additional forces are being applied to the traveling twin? Acceleration, deceleration, and microgravity. Acceleration and deceleration forces are net positive while microgravity is net negative. Since all objects are packaged to minimize stress (acceleration & deceleration forces), those two events have a minimal influence on aging. The amount of time spent in microgravity is what ultimately determines the difference in ages. This comes directly from NASA and their expirements on the effects of space flight on astronauts.
@eljeorgo
@eljeorgo Год назад
@@stewiesaidthat The above reply is terribly wrong... And Dialect is NOT the "only correct answer on youtube" This is a DANGEROUSLY misleading channel.
@stewiesaidthat
@stewiesaidthat Год назад
@19 W 128th Security I have yet to find a video that correctly solves the twin paradox. To achieve true 'time-dilation', there must be a change in energy values. Since none of these videos have shown that one twin has used less energy (slowed growth rate), there is no time-dilation.
@eljeorgo
@eljeorgo Год назад
@@stewiesaidthat - You don't understand this apparently... Ya cant just make shit up.
@eljeorgo
@eljeorgo Год назад
@@stewiesaidthat - even by your own fake logic.... Are you trying to say that the twin that DOES NOT MOVE.... Uses EQUAL ENERGY... To the twin that DOES? XD
@dmitriytimchuk771
@dmitriytimchuk771 Год назад
Wierd argument about feeling force. You could argue then that vision is a sense too, so how could you tell that someone is moving reletive to you if you can't see
@seneca983
@seneca983 3 месяца назад
7:50 I don't agree that there is a problem even if you remove the rest of the universe from this thought experiment. You still have a universe but the matter in this universe is composed only of these two observers and their spaceships. Their center of mass is necessarily in linear motion (or at rest) and doesn't accelerate (though I'm not sure how easy it would be to measure the location of this center of mass). Even if one of the observers accelerates it doesn't cause the center of mass to accelerate because his spaceship can only accelerate by chugging some reaction mass in the opposite direction.
@Lucidthinking
@Lucidthinking 2 года назад
Hey dialect, For me, this was a great video, and very mind-opening. It made me understand the solutions for the tween paradox better and see that the proposed solutions are not really as firm as they claim to be. I saw you ending the video with a question mark regarding the cause for the break of the symmetry. I have an interesting proposal, though it is not fully developed. I have found it working quite nicely to solve other inconsistencies with the theory of relativity. It lies in a little different interpretation of the principle of consistency of light. While Einstein proposed that the speed of light is independent of the speed of its source, and travel at the speed of C in relation to every observer, My proposal is that the speed of light is independent of the speed of its source, and travels at the speed of C in relation to space. This means we treat space as an absolute reference frame. Once you do it, it is easy to see that the symmetry is broken as one of the tweens is static in relation to space while the other one is in movement. This proposal also predicts that if you give different values to the relative speed of the "static" observer in relation to space, you will get different results for the paradox. You can even get a result where the moving twin ages more than the static tween. I don't think this prediction cancels out this solution, as I don't think we have had enough tween paradox experiments, to account for different initial conditions.
@nadirceliloglu7623
@nadirceliloglu7623 6 месяцев назад
Unfortunately, Dıalect's video here is full of flaws. This guy is probably trying to prove three things, 1. Other you tubers about relativity are wrong or have a lot of flaws in theır presentation. 2. Einstein was not quite right and his theories had a lot of flaws. He probably hates Albert Einsteİn,the Genius. Why? Like so many others,he is probably anti-semitic! 3. Mr. Dialect knows it all- which he does not unfortunately. I really wished he would.. As a physicist for 30 years,I am quite sure this guy is not a phycisist,but rather an enthusiastic PHILOSOPHER! Dialect is wasting our time.. Take it from a PHD physicist. Let me correct the followings, 1. Special relativity deals MAINLY with uniform motion,inertial frames in FLAT SPACETIME! Yes,acceleration can be also included in special relativity,BUT at that time ( 1905,when special relativity was developed),nothing was known about General Relativity and about THE SPECIAL ROLE of acceleration in General relativity. So,that is not a contradiction in Einstein's mind blogging theories,but rather due to lack of knowledge 1905 on the acceleration on time diation.( which came 10 years later) 2. The twin paradox: Einstein already provided the solution to the twin paradox( NOT A REAL PARADOX AFTER ALL) in his 1918 papers stating very explicitiy that acceleration is responsibie for NON-RECIPROCAL time dilation of the travelling twin. He states clearly in his paper that upon turning back,the travelling twin goes through acceleration which can be thought of causing a gravitational field to arise. He also clearly states that due to the moving stars around the spaceship,a gravitational fied is created.( NOT THAT A SUDDEN UNIFORM GRAVITATIONAL FIELD AROSE BECAUSE OF ACCELERATION AS DIALECT CLAIMS!!) Acceleration is the only cause for the travelling twin to stay younger. Here is another proof: Look at the worldline of the travelling twin and at the stay at home twin. Compare them with each other. What do you see? The stay at home's world's line is longer than the travelling twin's worldline, which proves that the travelling twin MUST remain younger.. Bingo.. Nothing more,nothing less. Why to complicate it further?
@RangQuid
@RangQuid 9 месяцев назад
I think the only problem here is that the concept of force is not well-defined. So to put it more concretely, I would like to use the phrase 'interaction'. An interaction is a binary relation between two fundamental particles that make up all the matter and energy. Binary relations are absolute and universal, not dependent on any frame of reference. A fundamental particle that is free from any binary relations defines an inertia frame of reference, any reference frame that is moving relative to the inertia frame by uniform velocity is also an inertia frame. Newton's third law simply states that any binary relation is symmetric. Now we define an equivalent relation for any two frames of reference to be equivalent if and only if they are in uniform relative motion with respect to each other. Special relativity simply states that any equivalent class only has one set of equations that governs how a physical system evolves.
@se7964
@se7964 9 месяцев назад
You’re just reframing the same problem in new terminology. How does one define “binary relation”? What empirically demonstrates it? What defines “uniform motion”? What empirically demonstrates it? Trying to answer those questions will put you back in the same circular place as discussed in this video.
@RangQuid
@RangQuid 9 месяцев назад
@@se7964 You can google what a binary relation is. I am sick of explaining something so elementary, same as uniform motion and how to measure it. Besides that, the binary relation is an assumption, it cannot be empirically observed. But assuming its existence would lead us to discover something profound and observable. By verifying the consequences of that assumption are consistent with the experimental results, we construct a theory of physics that has the ability to describe and predict the world around us. Despite that the theory was built upon something non testable. This is similar to how mathematicians don't know if ZFC is consistent, but assuming its consistency lead them to great discoveries in mathematics.
@marcv2648
@marcv2648 2 года назад
Thank you Dialect, for this video and the previous one. I'm still a skeptic though. Here is what I'd like to see, and hopefully you can address it. A double-blind twins experiment: A pair of large windowless space stations, each with a twin and a clock. One space station will rotate to produce 1G without any other noticeable effects. The other space station will accelerate away at 1G to a great distance and then return. Neither twin will know who is rotating and who is moving away and back. The moving station will have to make two acceleration changes at prescribed times to complete the return trip. The rotating station will make equivalent acceleration changes at identically prescribed times according to its own clock. So that neither twin could know if they were moving or rotating. When the space stations reunite and compare clocks, how will we know which space station accelerated away and back, and how will we know which space station stayed in position and rotated? How would a rotating clock at 1G differ from the one that traveled great distance at 1G, if we couldn't be sure to know which was which? We could have even more information in this scenario. Say we could know the distance apart, but since each twin on each station would feel the exact same acceleration and never know for sure which was moving. My thinking is that we can never know who is moving, and that when the clocks are brought back together, they will have to match the exact same time. It makes me think that SR can not answer the problem, and that GR is required to answer the problem. GR equivalence would produce clocks with matching times. I would genuinely like to know how others would answer this. Thank you.
@petpaltea
@petpaltea 2 года назад
Interesting idea. I also feel like this Twin paradoxes, different versions (especially how Dialect expands this on his later videos) would be somehow "easily" empirically tested. Maybe there were some test already that I don't know of. I think that famous test with airplane with atomic clock on board and "stationary" clock on the ground does not apply very well to problem of Twin paradox. But I am not sure.
@nadirceliloglu7623
@nadirceliloglu7623 6 месяцев назад
Unfortunately, Dıalect's video here is full of flaws. This guy is probably trying to prove three things, 1. Other you tubers about relativity are wrong or have a lot of flaws in theır presentation. 2. Einstein was not quite right and his theories had a lot of flaws. He probably hates Albert Einsteİn,the Genius. Why? Like so many others,he is probably anti-semitic! 3. Mr. Dialect knows it all- which he does not unfortunately. I really wished he would.. As a physicist for 30 years,I am quite sure this guy is not a phycisist,but rather an enthusiastic PHILOSOPHER! Dialect is wasting our time.. Take it from a PHD physicist. Let me correct the followings, 1. Special relativity deals MAINLY with uniform motion,inertial frames in FLAT SPACETIME! Yes,acceleration can be also included in special relativity,BUT at that time ( 1905,when special relativity was developed),nothing was known about General Relativity and about THE SPECIAL ROLE of acceleration in General relativity. So,that is not a contradiction in Einstein's mind blogging theories,but rather due to lack of knowledge 1905 on the acceleration on time diation.( which came 10 years later) 2. The twin paradox: Einstein already provided the solution to the twin paradox( NOT A REAL PARADOX AFTER ALL) in his 1918 papers stating very explicitiy that acceleration is responsibie for NON-RECIPROCAL time dilation of the travelling twin. He states clearly in his paper that upon turning back,the travelling twin goes through acceleration which can be thought of causing a gravitational field to arise. He also clearly states that due to the moving stars around the spaceship,a gravitational fied is created.( NOT THAT A SUDDEN UNIFORM GRAVITATIONAL FIELD AROSE BECAUSE OF ACCELERATION AS DIALECT CLAIMS!!) Acceleration is the only cause for the travelling twin to stay younger. Here is another proof: Look at the worldline of the travelling twin and at the stay at home twin. Compare them with each other. What do you see? The stay at home's world's line is longer than the travelling twin's worldline, which proves that the travelling twin MUST remain younger.. Bingo.. Nothing more,nothing less. Why to complicate it further?
@dmitrysofronov8624
@dmitrysofronov8624 Год назад
Actually, speaking of moving at a constant speed relative to the rest of the universe introduces the absolute frame of reference at rest, which is forbidden by the special relativity postulates
@OnionKing-cm4qh
@OnionKing-cm4qh 2 года назад
I would argue that physics education would not impact force resolving the paradox. A force will still exist weather someone knows how to detect it or not, therefore they twins would witness time dilation but not really know the difference that produced the outcome.
@jeremykearney7950
@jeremykearney7950 3 года назад
Could you defeat the "acceleration/reference frame" arguments by asking what happens if both twins fire their rockets away and fire their rockets to return making them perfectly symmetrical? Does this scenario deviate from the twin paradox? Does time dilation change if you are moving toward vs away from each other? Please excuse my ignorance and thank you for your patience in your responses.
@mikegale9757
@mikegale9757 3 года назад
@@silverrahul Exactly. But what if the twins leave a clock behind at their point of departure? That clock ages faster than the they do. The distinguishing characteristic of that worldline is that it runs parallel to the centre of momentum of the system, All three worldlines started off parallel to one another. Two of them were then kinked by launch events. The kinks have to be provided to SR as initial conditions. That's how you break the symmetry.
@mikegale9757
@mikegale9757 3 года назад
@@silverrahul The planet certainly puts a huge bias on the CoM vector when there's only one puny traveller, but it's incidental for the case of equal and opposite velocities. For the more general case of two travellers with arbitrary velocities, you have to look back along each worldline to see which ones were kinked (by launch events) and by how much. The kinks must be provided as part of the initial conditions in order to ascertain the direction of the CoM vector on the spacetime diagram. Note that the launch need not have happened when the twins were colocated on Earth. The traveller could have launched from Alpha Centuri and done a fly-by. That's a more interesting case because it forces you to come to terms with "now" over there.
@jeremykearney7950
@jeremykearney7950 3 года назад
@@silverrahul Image this. So we both agree to accelerate away from each other in opposite direction from an origin point for x amount of our local time then travel at a fixed velocity for y amount of our local time. During this first y time period we are traveling apart at some fixed velocity. Then we agree to accelerate toward each other for 2*x amount of our local time (one burst to reach 0 relative velocity to the starting point and the second to begin returning) and travel at fixed velocity for y amount of local time again. At this point we are approaching each other at some fixed velocity. Finally after the y time period is over we accelerate in opposite directions for x amount of time again to come to rest at our original positions. Of course we still have relative motion to each other at all points in our own local time and perspective. 1) I believe it is agreed that in the first y time period we both have slowed time relative due to our "separating" relative velocity to each other or is this wrong? 2) What happens during the second y time period? Does the orientation of our relative speed matter or does it not matter and we still perceive both clocks as still going slower? I have never heard anyone say that "approaching" relative velocities speed up time but maybe I'm ignorant.
@jeremykearney7950
@jeremykearney7950 3 года назад
@@silverrahul So if we both agree that we are both moving and we both see the other's clock's as moving slower than our own in both directions what is the result at the end?
@jeremykearney7950
@jeremykearney7950 3 года назад
@@silverrahul so there is a jump in time simultaneously for both observers which is somehow tied to the distance between them? If we reduce the fixed velocity travel time to y/2 your time jump would have to be halved as well. This sounds more like an change to apparent time than real time. We know that there is a real time impact to relative speed travel. Having a sudden instantaneous jump in time due to relative acceleration (change in direction) which is also somehow variable based on the distance doesn't seem right.
@Daetelus
@Daetelus Год назад
I guess I fall into the Apriori camp, but I don't consider knowledge to be the thing that causes a frame to be inertial or not. Knowledge (and an unambiguous definition of an inertial frame) is merely what allows us to identify which frames are inertial. So we certainly can replace the observers with systems of inanimate particles. And the system that is not inertial is the one that undergoes deformation. It is the system whose parts do not all accelerate at "exactly" the same time, the system whose parts propagate the change in motion through the system as a wave. Now, as to whether or not this and this alone should solve the twin paradox is a different matter. I, for one, think the "real" solution is that Special and General Relativity are a bunch of BS.
@dialectphilosophy
@dialectphilosophy Год назад
Hah, in a way there is a lot of mysticism sold about GR and SR that on the surface sounds cool, but when you try to resolve it into precise and physically meaningful statements, it suddenly doesn't seem to mean much at all. It's a lot like Gödel's incompleteness theorem, to be honest. We've seen a lot of parallels between Relativity and Incompleteness, in terms of certain formalisms being taken way too literally and genuine confusion among experts about what certain things actually mean. In regards to inertial/non-inertial systems, to say a system must undergo deformation to be non-inertial is fine, but one can ask, how do we measure this deformation? How do we know our measuring instruments aren't likewise deforming, so as to obscure such deformation? At some point, the observer has to make a series of assumptions about what is and isn't inertia, and very much like choosing the origin of a coordinate system, this choice is to some degree arbitrary. (That's not our own original thinking btw, mostly a regurgitation of Poincaré.)
@Daetelus
@Daetelus Год назад
​@@dialectphilosophy "At some point, the observer has to make a series of assumptions about what is and isn't inertia . . . ." I agree. That's pretty much true about everything we think we know. But I'm not sure I agree that it's arbitrary even to some degree. I guess it depends on what exactly you mean by that. "but one can ask, how do we measure this deformation? How do we know our measuring instruments aren't likewise deforming, so as to obscure such deformation?" I'm not really sure why you're asking these or what the significance is of the fact that someone could ask these questions. Here's what I'm seeing. We have two kinds of acceleration, the kind that causes us to "feel a force" and the kind that doesn't, the kind that causes a ball to roll to the back of a truck bed and the kind that doesn't. The feeling of a force and the observing of a ball rolling are the "measurements" of deformation. And it is these measurements that have led us to acknowledge that there are two kinds or two manners of acceleration. And we have labeled the one that causes the feeling of a force and the rolling of balls, non-inertial. Now, if you're asking how do we know for certain or how do we know in every situation that our assumptions and conclusions are all correct, then my response is we probably don't. But I believe there is an underlying, absolute, objective truth that distinguishes some accelerations from others, that explains why forces (for lack of a better word) are felt and why balls roll. I suppose you could say that's one of my assumptions.
@Dekoherence-ii8pw
@Dekoherence-ii8pw 7 месяцев назад
You can't write them off as bs. They have been tested by a huge number of experiments. So they're obviously getting something right.
@Dekoherence-ii8pw
@Dekoherence-ii8pw 7 месяцев назад
But yes I agree with this: "I guess I fall into the Apriori camp, but I don't consider knowledge to be the thing that causes a frame to be inertial or not. " It has nothing to do with Alice and Bob's KNOWLEDGE, at all. One of them is in an inertial reference frame. The other isn't. They don't need to KNOW about inertial reference frames. They're in the frames they're in, whether they're aware of it or not.
@josephparsons121
@josephparsons121 2 года назад
@Dialect I am probably thinking about this incorrectly, since I know only the basics of relativity, but this is what I think. You probably already addressed an objection like this elsewhere, but maybe not. Maxwell's Equations should create electromagnetic waves that propagate at a constant speed and direction in spacetime. Hence, light could be used to find an inertial reference frame. For example, let's say Alice is on Earth and Bob is on a spaceship that is initially stationary, but accelerates at time t=0. Suppose that in the spaceship, there is a mirror along the x-axis, and a laser at (0, -1) pointing in the positive y-axis, normal to the mirror. Both of these measurements are done relative to the center of the spaceship, but no matter what point of reference you use, the laser should remain perpendicular to the mirror (even if this is not quite accurate, it shouldn't ruin the scenario). Suppose Bob turns on the laser at time t=0. From Alice's Perspective: A photon of light will be emitted from the laser at that time, but the direction of the photon should not change until it hits the mirror and returns back to its starting position. But this starting position is now no longer at the position of the laser, but would be shifted left. If a detector was placed along the line y = -1 relative to the center of the spaceship, the detector should register a photon hitting at a point a bit left of the laser. The detector should measure light energy hitting it at a point left of the detector and progressing left along the detector. Because light is also a wave, an interference pattern should be visible left of the laser. From Bob's Perspective: A photon of light will be emitted from the laser. The photon hits the mirror and returns back to hit the laser. This is shown in the simulation I made here: www.khanacademy.org/computer-programming/light-particles-demo/5940491108532224 Clearly, these frames of reference are inconsistent, since the detector measurements must be consistent across reference frames. Hence, we have good reason to conclude that Alice is really the stationary observer. In the spaceships example, if the astronauts aboard each spacecraft set up the apparatus described, the detector can search for an interference pattern. If there is none, then the observer is in an inertial frame of reference.
@luizdegrande711
@luizdegrande711 Год назад
I have a doubt: if we can measure acceleration with a spring inside the rocket without any reference frame, may we say that acceleration is absolute?
@dexter8705
@dexter8705 Год назад
The spring doesn't work in an inertial reference frame?
@traficantedebambu7624
@traficantedebambu7624 Год назад
​@@dexter8705 but acceleration isn't inertial, if we assume it accelerates, the spring should deformate
@dexter8705
@dexter8705 Год назад
@@traficantedebambu7624 gravity is acceleration in an inertial reference frame!
@doodeedah6409
@doodeedah6409 Год назад
Even if we accept his explanation with inertial frame, external forces, etc, the question remains: why do the twins need to do different things? The paradox is meant to be symmetrical, i.e. both twins are travelling in opposite directions with identical rockets with identical forces, then both twins turn around to meet again. Who ends up older?
@511mev
@511mev Год назад
I get what you’re doing. And I like it. Sadly this will all be very unsatisfying though since the questions you are raising are not resolved. But it’s great to be introduced to what we did not know we didn’t know.
@imaginingPhysics
@imaginingPhysics 2 года назад
10:05 I think elementary particles are quite the experts in physics, so they have no problem "deducing" their own interactions and how to respond to them :). Like: "I got hit by a photon, I should adjust my coordinate system a bit". As long as "force" is due to interactions other than gravity (which is supposed not to be a "force" ) I dont see a fundamental problem. Or am I wrong? I would like to know if I am.
@billmagee9898
@billmagee9898 Год назад
I was taught that the paradox is resolved by the fact that one twin leaves an inertial reference frame and returns to it, while the other twin never leaves. This video does nothing to convince me otherwise. What's the real answer if this isn't correct? Or are you saying time dilation isn't real?
@nadirceliloglu7623
@nadirceliloglu7623 6 месяцев назад
Unfortunately, Dıalect's video here is full of flaws. This guy is probably trying to prove three things, 1. Other you tubers about relativity are wrong or have a lot of flaws in theır presentation. 2. Einstein was not quite right and his theories had a lot of flaws. He probably hates Albert Einsteİn,the Genius. Why? Like so many others,he is probably anti-semitic! 3. Mr. Dialect knows it all- which he does not unfortunately. I really wished he would.. As a physicist for 30 years,I am quite sure this guy is not a phycisist,but rather an enthusiastic PHILOSOPHER! Dialect is wasting our time.. Take it from a PHD physicist. Let me correct the followings, 1. Special relativity deals MAINLY with uniform motion,inertial frames in FLAT SPACETIME! Yes,acceleration can be also included in special relativity,BUT at that time ( 1905,when special relativity was developed),nothing was known about General Relativity and about THE SPECIAL ROLE of acceleration in General relativity. So,that is not a contradiction in Einstein's mind blogging theories,but rather due to lack of knowledge 1905 on the acceleration on time diation.( which came 10 years later) 2. The twin paradox: Einstein already provided the solution to the twin paradox( NOT A REAL PARADOX AFTER ALL) in his 1918 papers stating very explicitiy that acceleration is responsibie for NON-RECIPROCAL time dilation of the travelling twin. He states clearly in his paper that upon turning back,the travelling twin goes through acceleration which can be thought of causing a gravitational field to arise. He also clearly states that due to the moving stars around the spaceship,a gravitational fied is created.( NOT THAT A SUDDEN UNIFORM GRAVITATIONAL FIELD AROSE BECAUSE OF ACCELERATION AS DIALECT CLAIMS!!) Acceleration is the only cause for the travelling twin to stay younger. Here is another proof: Look at the worldline of the travelling twin and at the stay at home twin. Compare them with each other. What do you see? The stay at home's world's line is longer than the travelling twin's worldline, which proves that the travelling twin MUST remain younger.. Bingo.. Nothing more,nothing less. Why to complicate it further?
@karelzavadil6337
@karelzavadil6337 Год назад
I really like these videos, but still I would appreciate more if it focuses on what is the right explanation than on what is not.
@drdca8263
@drdca8263 2 года назад
Could you identify the inertial frames by reference to the Levi-Civita connection for the metric? Like, say that a reference frame is inertial when (a path in spacetime is a geodesic iff its velocity as expressed in the coordinates of that reference frame, are constant). Seems clear enough? Edit: I don’t understand the objection on the basis of “what if they don’t realize whether they are accelerating”. What does that have to do with anything? I think I don’t understand what philosophical question you are attempting to solve.
@dialectphilosophy
@dialectphilosophy 2 года назад
We are attempting to solve the question: "what is the agent of asymmetry in the twin in paradox?" which is the question most people are asking themselves, whether they are aware of its precise formulation or not, when confronted with the paradox. To say, "acceleration is the agent of asymmetry" requires positing absolute acceleration, which is wholly undefinable and inconsistent within a greater logical framework. To say, "switching inertial frames is the agent of asymmetry" requires a definition of the inertial frame that isn't reliant upon acceleration, otherwise you end up with the issues in the aforementioned statement. Whether the twins realize if they are accelerating or not is crucial to knowledge of the asymmetry, since, if they could say absolutely that they were accelerating, this would allow them to qualify acceleration as the agent of asymmetry. But, since defining absolute acceleration is impossible (precisely because the twins can never know for sure whether they are truly accelerating or not) this rules out acceleration as the agent of asymmetry. Both these points are somewhat moot however, since in curved spacetime acceleration/inertial frame switching is clearly no longer demonstrates any significant correlation to the asymmetries in the twins' clocks.
@aproghead
@aproghead 2 года назад
@@dialectphilosophy so why are u so opposed to the idea of absolute acceleration? Seems like a reasonable possibility based on your own arguments. And as noted by others here, you clearly feel the physical affects of acceleration on you, ie you know if you are undergoing an acceleration or not (at least if it is big enough). Or as you note an accelerometer will tell you. Furthermore, it’s not important if the stay at home twin has knowledge of whether her brother underwent an acceleration on his return journey. She can correctly conclude that he must have since he returns younger than her.
@shugyosha7924
@shugyosha7924 2 года назад
Thank you. I just could not get my head around different videos' explanations because they did not seem to resolve the problem. I'm so happy to see it's not because I don't get it but because the explanations are just not totally satisfactory.
@ChuckCreagerJr
@ChuckCreagerJr Год назад
Even though you refer to it you are ignoring the fact that real acceleration can be internally measured. Consequently, you can determine whether or not you are or not in an inertial frame of reference by internal measurements.
@dialectphilosophy
@dialectphilosophy Год назад
Measuring acceleration requires the use of something such as an accelerometer; however, the readings of an accelerometer are useless unless the instrument has been first calibrated in a frame already known/assumed to be inertial. See "Newton vs. Mach" for more on this.
@ChuckCreagerJr
@ChuckCreagerJr Год назад
@@dialectphilosophy Except that an accelerometer could be something as simple as a ball that you release in mid-air. If you are in a rocket that is an inertial frame of reference and you release a ball in mid-air it will just stay there. However, if you are accelerating and you release a ball in mid-air it will fall in the direction of the acceleration. Furthermore, you can calculate the acceleration by simply measuring how far it fell and how long it took to fall. Once you have these two figures calculating the acceleration is easy. a = 2d/(t^2) No calibration in an inertial frame of reference is needed. All these measurements and calculations can be done while accelerating.
@dexter8705
@dexter8705 Год назад
If you watched all the videos you would realise that acceleration doesn't matter and doesn't cause asymmetry causing one twin to be younger than the other twin.
@juliavixen176
@juliavixen176 Год назад
​@@dialectphilosophy What about Jerk (or Jolt) the third derivative of position vs. time? (Or do you just have constant proper acceleration forever?) (Because something has to change to measure time.)
@TheErebos4
@TheErebos4 Год назад
What would change if you replace the rocket with a free falling object? Like throwing an apple straight into the sky and catching it later. No rocket firering required for coming back. Who will be older? The apple, once released, does not feel any force. Not sure it thus sits in one inertial frame the whole 'fall'. And one might argue who is accelerating, i.e. changing relative velocity, the earth or the apple. And I'm also not sure if one now has to consider GR since the rockets are essentially replaced by gravity or curved spacetime ...
@ianrobinson8518
@ianrobinson8518 Год назад
I’m no expert but I believe in such a gravity field (locally homogeneous in this case), you need in theory GR to resolve the problem.
@mikegale9757
@mikegale9757 3 года назад
We might not know when or where it happened, but one or both worldlines must have been kinked at some point in the past due to a launch event. That's how you break the symmetry - with initial conditions. Waypoints are incidental. A worldline with no kinks runs parallel to the centre of momentum of the system and that's the context in which proper time runs fastest. Problem solved. Time to tackle the Andromeda paradox.
@erinm9445
@erinm9445 5 месяцев назад
Sorry, this last "skeptic" part of the video is silly. The twin paradox has nothing to do with what the twins actually cognitively know, it only has to do with with what is theoretically knowable. The twins could be put in an induced coma for the entire time, and one would still age differently than the other. For that matter, you could have a clocks on board, but no people at all. Or Alice and Bob could be there, could make the wrong assumptions and come to the wrong conclusions about time and age. Embarassing! But it doesn't change the laws of physics or how much time has passed on either ship. The reason people refer to a force as breaking the symmetry and explaining the paradox is because...the force breaks the symmetry and explains the paradox, whether any conscious observers understand that fact or not. Though I actually agree with Dr Don from Fermilab that it's not actually the force that matters, but rather, the force is what causes the change from one inertial frame to another. It's the frame change that breaks the symmetry, as he explains really well and really clearly in his no-acceleration example with three observers instead of two.
@dialectphilosophy
@dialectphilosophy 5 месяцев назад
The inertial frame is a mathematical construct, and thus cannot be responsible for "breaking the symmetry". Additionally, Dr. Don's example doesn't explain anything, as one can easily invoke a fourth frame traveling in towards the earth from opposite direction, which exchanges information with it, and then right away the paradox is easily recreated. If you had watched the video more closely, you'd see we're actually arguing the same point. The current solution to the twin paradox is based purely on what observers KNOW, not what is actually verifiably real. So if you think that is absurd, or "silly" as you say, and as we point out in the video, then you have to reject the conventional solution. That was the entire point of our video!
@erinm9445
@erinm9445 5 месяцев назад
@@dialectphilosophy Thanks for responding! First, since I'm about to get argumentative, I just want to say that I really like a lot of your videos, especilaly the ones about the dynamic interpretations of relativity, you totally have me convinced there! But while there is some really useful thinking in your twin paradox videos, you take a position that almost amounts to the idea that nothing is actually provable or real if you deconstruct it enough. Your idea that inertial frames are just mathematical constructs without any real meaning is a great example of this. You may as well say that measuring height is a mathematical construct with no meaning in reality and therefore can't be responsible for anything. But of course, height is a mathematical description of something real with real implications in the world. Because I'm short (a mathematical description) I can't reach the top cupboard in my kitchen without a stool (a very real physical consequence). In the same way, changing inertial frames is a mathematical construct that describes something with real consequences in the world. "If you had watched the video more closely" Honestly, rude? I watched very closely, multiple times. Other possibilities are that you explained poorly, or that we are viewing the video with at least one unexamined assumption upon which we disagree. I believe it is the latter, and here is that assumption: "The current solution to the twin paradox is based purely on what observers KNOW". No it isn't. You are misinterpreting metaphorical rhetorical choices as literal descriptions. Literally no one is saying that Bob is younger because he is cognitively aware that he accelerated/switched reference frames. Bob *believes* he is younger because of his observations, but that doesn't mean he's correct. What solutions to the twin paradox suggest is that he *is* younger because symmetries of the laws of physics are broken. Talking about what Bob "knows" or "feels" vs what Alice does is just a shorthand for illustrating any asymetry in the physical system of A (at rest) vs the physical system of B (leaves and comes back). Doesn't matter if they're observed by an intelligent consciousness at all. If you ask ANY physicist or educator who is explaining the twin paradox whether they think it matters what Bob cognitively knows or feels, vs if he's in a coma, or if it's just a robot spaceship, they'll say no, it's just a way of talking about whether forces are or aren't present. If a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear it, there are still soundwaves. There may not be anyone there to interpret them into sound, but the physical oscillations of the air are still there, the forces are still present.
@sebgardella9793
@sebgardella9793 5 месяцев назад
Hi@@erinm9445 . Just for background I'm a physics undergrad with the gruelling task of trying to sift through all the false information surrounding the twin paradox. I agree with you that the time elapsed for either Bob or Alice should be entirely unrelated to what they are or are not cognitively aware of, but I was more convinced by the videos refutation of Fermilabs argument at 5:00, namely that Fermilabs argues that the traveller is in two inertial frames based on their outgoing and return journey, and that the earth observer is in one, but you can similarly formulate it as this video does such that the earth observer is the one changing inertial frames. After-all is a change in inertial frames not identical to acceleration but just with the added third observer? Are you saying that the traveller is objectively feeling a force which the earth observer isn't? I understand that point and I'm not unconvinced by it, but it seems that if you consider the change in inertial frames from the earth observer's perspective they will still feel the same time dilation such that they would be younger relative to the traveller, returning the paradox regardless of which one feels the force.
@fakedoorsfordinner1677
@fakedoorsfordinner1677 2 месяца назад
​@@sebgardella9793​Hello, don't know whether you still are interested in relativity, but I think that saying that either observer is accelerating or not doesn't solve the paradox. And I disagree with any inertial frame argument. Yet I still agree with Fermilab, on one thing that other people don't mention. That is: The difference between going towards an object and away from an object. (Being able to input -v into the formula, thus turning the minus into a plus). So on the departure journey you have the normal gamma formula, while on the arrival journey you'd have 1/(✓(1+(v/c)^2) (I assume this equals gamma^-1, but I don't know for sure) If this gets implemented than there isn't even a assymetry anymore, since upon arrival both siblings !HAVE THE SAME AGE! Thus, no paradox. (If the formula doesn't match the same amount, then maybe just change it to the reciprical of gamma, because I know square roots can make things difficult) (The idea however Is the same, in both as it should reverse time dilation and length contraction)
@ric_he
@ric_he 2 месяца назад
@@sebgardella9793 I recommend reading the Wikipedia page on Twin Paradox, the "What it looks like: the relativistic Doppler shift" section. It explains the perspectives of the traveling twin and Earth twin. In short, both twins will see that the other twin's clock slow down while they are moving away, but the Earth twin will see that for a longer time than the travelling twin. Likewise, both clocks appear to speed up for different durations while the twin returns. The net result that is that the Earth twin is younger. As the video explains, there is an asymmetry due the force (or temporary non-inertial frame, however it is explained). If the force is symmetrical (such as if both twins travel away and then towards each other and experience the same force), then twins would be the same age even though the inertial frame has also changed. (FYI, I'm not a physicist).
@jonbold
@jonbold Год назад
In order to have a Paradox, first, you must have a variable speed of light by SR or GR. Take your pick.
@mikkel715
@mikkel715 2 года назад
Look at Spacetime as Sean Carroll explains it. Delete both axis in the spacetime diagram. Every observer or object has its own spacetime path and its own light cone. Besides. GPS should show there is no paradox.
@eliteteamkiller319
@eliteteamkiller319 Год назад
This is starting to get a bit pedantic but I'll keep watching. I mean, come on. Let the two objects be two digital accelerometers which save history of second by second measurement and you'll know for sure that there is an asymmetry (if there is one). But I guess observing the asymmetry isn't enough. We want a why. Very well, I'll see what you have to say in the next video. My guess is it will come down to spacetime paths, as that's how it was taught to me. But I await the next one.
@johnjason6075
@johnjason6075 Год назад
So ultimately, if you get rid of the universe, would both twins be the same age? However, if you bring a universe to reference who is accelerating, then is it twin B who is older?
@riraldi
@riraldi Год назад
PLEASE ANSWER Why is it considered that the twin that traveled returns with the clock delayed and not that he returned in the past of the first twin?
@hurricane7950
@hurricane7950 Год назад
Thats my question too.
@vedansh7010
@vedansh7010 Год назад
The faster we travel through space the slower we travel through time
@new-knowledge8040
@new-knowledge8040 2 года назад
Simply put, pretty well non of the books nor videos reveal the "Absolute" cause of the "Relativistic" outcome. And so, how can anyone absolutely understand something, when the very concept of "Absolute", is being heavily heavily banned in the first place. Fortunately, there is one YT video collection that reveals the absolute foundation that creates the Special Relativity(SR) phenomena as an outcome. Plus it shows how even a high school dropout can derive the SR mathematical equations, including deriving the Lorentz transformations equations. The videos show you that all that you need for you to be able to find the absolute cause, is common sense, and the ability to place truth above mere beliefs.
@Achrononmaster
@Achrononmaster Год назад
@7:00 where did you get the idea "force is not an observable"? That's a slap in the face all modern physics and goes back to one I. Newton. These days force is interaction (particle scattering processes) so is "observable". If you are isolated from distant gravitons or whathaveyou (or gravity waves) you "observe" there is no force acting on you from without. By "observe" a physicist means "could be detected" not "is detected".
@Achrononmaster
@Achrononmaster Год назад
OK, @8:12 you make this correction, in a sense. Good. But I will leave my above comment.
@kabirsharma5417
@kabirsharma5417 3 года назад
Question: if a twin is at rest and the other moves at constant velocity, who ages faster till the time moving twin starts to brake? Because both will observe the other one to move at constant velocity. so both should measure the other ones time to to have slowed down.
@imaginingPhysics
@imaginingPhysics 2 года назад
Nice question. I think the, perhaps frusterating, anwers is that there really is no reasonable way to compare their ages, since their planes of simulteneity are different. Something like: alice measures bobs age at bobs yesterday, while bob measures alices time at alices yesterday. The greater their distance the bigger the discrepancy in their simultaneities. Here a spacetime diagram would be helpful.
@FrancisKoczur
@FrancisKoczur Год назад
If you send a beam of light from earth to bounce off of an object 1 light years away, it returns in 2 years with zero clock change.
@nettewilson853
@nettewilson853 3 года назад
Everything I've ever wondered about regarding this paradox. But time dilation is real/measurable and fits the equations so it seems like SOMETHING has to explain the phenomenon. Maybe there are semi inertial frames formed by larger objects in somewhat fixed positions relative to each other?
@tetraedri_1834
@tetraedri_1834 2 года назад
This is from another comment from mine: you cannot isolate the problem to only containing the twins, as (at least) one of the twins should somehow interact with the rest of the universe for relative acceleration between the twins to occur. In the usual description of the twin paradox, the cause for acceleration is abstracted away in such a way that the other twin is in rest throughout the experiment. You seem to try to get rid of this abstraction, but doing so you must describe the system more fully than only the relative positions of the twins, which would disambiguate the symmetry.
@nettewilson853
@nettewilson853 2 года назад
@@tetraedri_1834 I've thought that too. However this is also apparently incorrect. At least that's what I think I've been told. Because now you are invoking an inertial reference frame: the whole of the universe.
@tetraedri_1834
@tetraedri_1834 2 года назад
@@nettewilson853 If we accept Newton's laws of motions (+ principle of special relativity), there is always a way to tell which forces are real and which are fictitious. The rest of the comment I copied before explains my point: To state your point clearly, you should tell which assumptions you accept. It seems that you are only assuming the postulates of special relativity, in which case I see where you come from: how do we differentiate whether object is accelerated or the whole universe around that object is accelerated. Although this can be experimentally tested by accelerometer, the postulates of special relativity alone don't tell in which reference frames the accelerometer should be in rest (i.e. show zero acceleration), hence we have not really disambiguated the symmetry. You then reduce the universe into two objects. However, if there is nothing else in the universe and these objects are indivisible, then there is no way to have acceleration as it requires exchange of momentum. Hence, to perform the twin paradox you need slightly more complicated universe (at least three objects), in which case the frames of the twins are not symmetrical, hence the paradox can be resolved.
@AdrianBoyko
@AdrianBoyko 2 года назад
The observer’s a priori knowledge determines whether or not the observer *understands* why the situation is not actually a paradox. Removing that knowledge doesn’t “recover the paradox”, it simply leaves the observer incapable of understanding why there is no paradox.
@WeAreShowboat
@WeAreShowboat 10 месяцев назад
Yeah, I’m shocked this video tried to claim such a crazy interpretation. Their interpretations also depend on them knowing how to use a clock properly, and all kinds of other knowledge, but that doesn’t impact the truth of the matter. I honestly can’t tell if this channel is a troll or not at this point.
@se7964
@se7964 9 месяцев назад
Your reaction is the sort people have when they haven’t read much philosophy. The relationship between knowledge, theory and reality is full of subtitles you are overlooking here. What the video is saying is that resolving the twin paradox relies on having an absolute ability to discern between what is and isn’t an inertial frame. But there is no empirical method offered by the theory for making such a discernment. It’s not about lack of understanding - it’s an uncertainty issue, in that there’s no way to know with certainty who accelerated and who didn’t, and that acceleration itself is only a construct of knowledge, not an ontological causal agent, and therefore, offering acceleration up as a causal agent is a extremely bad idea that conflates our knowledge of reality with reality itself. Essentially what you don’t realize is that you’re arguing the same point the video is.
@WeAreShowboat
@WeAreShowboat 9 месяцев назад
@@se7964 There is an empirical way to determine who was in the inertial frame and this video concedes as much. For the non inertial frame there will be fictitious forces in the cabin of the rocket that are not attributable to any source (stuff will start falling sideways off tables even if the room is completely symmetrically arranged). This does not happen in the inertial frame. My epistemological knowledge of this fact is irrelevant to the ontological reality that my clock will tick less tocks when I return to the inertial clock (even if I had no idea how it happened).
@jjll6741
@jjll6741 2 года назад
The laws of physics is the same in all inertial reference frame, but not in non-inertial frame. So if the laws of physics changes for you, that means you are accelerating. That's how you can tell which twin accelerated.
@jjll6741
@jjll6741 2 года назад
Maybe one can insist reference frame is relative, even acceleration. But the change of laws of physics (of motion) is real. The twins can be each in an enclose box with no windows, and don't have any external reference. But within the box, one of the twins will see different laws of motion for different time periods of the journey.
@new-knowledge8040
@new-knowledge8040 2 года назад
If the laws don't apply in non-inertial frames, that means that SR does not expose the completeness of what is actually going on. And so the funny thing is that SR is not being revealed in the format of being a component of the complete picture of what is actually going on. In other words, the complete picture is not being revealed. With this being the case, paradoxes put up due to this lack of completeness being exposed. I find this annoying, since it is sooooo easy to reveal the complete picture.
@jjll6741
@jjll6741 2 года назад
@pyropulse If you are "accelerating", there will be a "gravity force", things will be dropping downward. So there is a different.
@luizdegrande711
@luizdegrande711 Год назад
Arithmetic survives an lives together with self reference paradox. Why cannot Relativity live together with Twin Paradox?
@quirtt
@quirtt Год назад
Wow I finally understood the real implications of the twin paradox. I love your videos
@hannutiihonen9175
@hannutiihonen9175 3 года назад
In all those Minkowski diagrams about the "twin paradox" there is that time gap when simultaneity line suddenly jumps forward a lot. But if we take that kind of example, where twins send a message every year to each other in the speed of light, there is not THAT kind of jump in the receiving frequence in the spaceship. Only the frequence is bigger when the travelling twin is on his way back, of course. So, is that "time jump" real at all. That is something I don't understand (among many other things). Can you explain? A link to an example www.cpp.edu/~ajm/materials/twinparadox.html There is that time jump from 3.2 to 6.8 years on the earth If the travelling twin thinks only the messages and the time which the signal takes to reach the spaceship, he thinks that earth time goes faster all the time without dramatic jumps. Not slower first, then sudden jump, and then slower again. On the outbound leg he gets only two signals (two years per signal), eight when returning (after every half year), but he understands it is because the Doppler effect. Doesn't the amount and timing of the received messages reveal to the traveller (even before he is back at earth), that his time goes slower ALL the time and earth time goes faster?
@dialectphilosophy
@dialectphilosophy 3 года назад
This is actually a common confusion regard the doppler shift vs. time dilation. Even professional physicists sadly often make it (you can see it in the Ted-Ed series video for instance). The Doppler effect is about the differing frequency of a light signal based on whether the light-emitting object is moving towards or away from you. Time dilation isn't about light frequency at all (though it is a consequence of the constancy of the speed of light) but rather concerns all time processes. For a moving object, an inertial observer at rest compared to the object will observe all time processes slowed down for that object's frame.
@hannutiihonen9175
@hannutiihonen9175 3 года назад
@@dialectphilosophy Let me put it this way: In my example, time dilation has that effect on the signals sent from the spaceship, that there is time to send only eight signals (because the trip takes eight years according to the travelling twin). That time dilation seems to be 'real'. So I thought, that if that 'odd' time dilation, which travelling twin thinks to happen on earth, is 'real', it should be somehow seen in the signals sent from the earth in the way they come to the spaceship. First slow time, then sudden jump, then slow time. 3.2 years + 'gap' + 3.2 years. Three signals - a cluster of signals - three signals. Or something like that. Or less signals, six instead of ten. And because nothing like that happens, does it not mean that the time dilation which travelling twin thinks to happen on earth is not 'as real as' in the spaceship - it is only calculation?
@dialectphilosophy
@dialectphilosophy 3 года назад
@@hannutiihonen9175 If we understand your question correctly, you're asking if the light signals sent between ships should indicate the paradox's asymmetry? Empirically speaking, yes. Since whoever is "really" accelerating sees the other twin aging rapidly at the turn-around point, they would see a burst of signals arriving during that time period, whereas the other twin would not. (But of course, this only indicates the asymmetry -- it does not tell us what the cause of it is.)
@hannutiihonen9175
@hannutiihonen9175 3 года назад
@@silverrahul Thankyou. I think I have now got over my first confusions! I thought also that kind of messages, which for example travelling twin sends and when earth twin gets them, he sends immediately back a message, where he tells what his clock says. In that case the time dilation can be detected. (You see, I have not thought relativity much in my life, this was a sudden inspiration) It is interesting that Einstein thought that the situation of the twins is really symmetric if you think it only within the Special ralativity theory (if I have got it right) but many modern scientists think the 'paradox' can be explained within SR. Let's see where Dialect leads us...
@hannutiihonen9175
@hannutiihonen9175 3 года назад
@@silverrahul Thanks for the correction. I thought I had read something like that about Einstein. But now I found an article which says that Einstein had different arguments in different times. A quote and link: "In his 1918 response, Einstein does not repeat his earlier simultaneity argument but relies instead on the argument that since one of the klocks is in an accelerated frame of reference, the postulates of the special theory of relativity do not apply to it and so ‘no contradictions in the foundations of the theory can be construed’." This was when Einstein answered to some opponent who tried (erroneusly) to show that there is a contradiction because "each clock must ‘run slower’ than the other". www.academia.edu/3771200/Einstein_and_twin_paradox
@GumbyTheGreen1
@GumbyTheGreen1 2 года назад
"Another way of saying this is that at some point in the journey, one of the twins inhabits a non-inertial frame." I don't think that’s quite what they’re trying to say. What they're saying is that the traveling twin's journey can be seen as a combination of two *purely* inertial frames since you can model it with a scenario that involves two ships in inertial frames that move in opposite directions and exchange clock readings as they fly past each other. Although you could certainly argue that even in this scenario, acceleration and thus non-inertial frames were required for each ship before the experiment began and that perhaps that’s what made the difference. Also, I think you worry too much about epistemology. You should just replace all pilots with autopilot systems and stopwatches and stop worrying about what the people in each reference frame believe. This is physics and the laws of physics don't care about beliefs. All this talk about what the pilots can induce muddies the waters and makes things more complicated and confusing than they need to be.
@good4usoul
@good4usoul 2 года назад
I think I belong in the Apriorism Camp except I would, first of all, complain at your statement "An inertial frame is not being acted on by any known force-producing sources" This is an absurdity because an inertial frame is a set of points. Points are not entities with mass, and cannot be acted upon by forces, whether known or unknown. There is no "pretty big hole" in this solution because there is no need to identify known and unknown sources of force. Even if there were a hole at all, it would be a relatively small one, as you're comparing the amount of impulse required to turn a rocket around from 0.5c to -0.5c in a period of hours or weeks, to identifying subtle behaviors of systems... These are going to be orders upon orders of magnitudes of difference between the subtle forces that are "unknown" and the obvious rocket impulses that turn a rocket around and cause accelerations on the order of half the speed of light. Also, we can perfectly well do geometry without knowing every force that holds the paper together. We can be relatively assured that the space between points remains constant, unless someone wads or rips the paper. If there is an event that is sufficient to wad or rip the spacetime during the process of the twin paradox, I suspect, the traveling twin and the earthbound twin would probably notice. Subtle forces that are beneath notice, though, would barely affect the situation at all. The A-priori-ism is that "An inertial frame is not being acted on by any forces. PERIOD." It makes no difference whether they are known or unknown. A frame that is acted on by forces is not an inertial frame. A frame that is not acted on by forces is an inertial frame. That's not even a priori assumption That's is a theorem that results from a definition that says "POINTS DO NOT ACCELERATE". It does not matter how much force you apply to a point. It won't accelerate. If it is a "point-mass" it will accelerate. But if it is just a point, it won't.
@tonyh6160
@tonyh6160 2 года назад
A lot of strawman arguing in this video. I don't think the content creators referenced here would agree with these interpretations of what they were saying (I know I don't). A number of problematic issues arise with the statement "If we formulate the Twin Paradox in empty space..." at 7:51. This is unphysical and probably useless for this thought experiment. Would the space-time formed between the two objects even be Lorentzian? If not, SR can't be used here. But if using GR, then how would a destination (location and distance from origin) for the TT be determined? The later stuff about observations and deductions is just bogus. Nobody is arguing that the Twin Paradox is resolved as a function of the conscious observer. And last, the author gets overly fixated on defining inertial reference frames in purely realistic terms. Its well established that they are idealizations used for simplification of the thought experiment as occurring in flat Lorentzian space.
@se7964
@se7964 2 года назад
If you’re arguing that you can’t formulate the twin paradox in empty space, there’s nothing in the framework of SR that says you can’t. Plus, you’d be arguing for a Machian interpretation of motion/force, wherein it could only be defined in relation to other masses/substances. The videos he is criticizing here are wrong. Besides tending to mix up half their facts, these videos are wrong in asserting that switching inertial frames is responsible for the asymmetry of the paradox. That is 100 perfect un-factual.
@albertaoridge
@albertaoridge Год назад
a person on earth isn’t really at rest compared to a rocket ship that flies away from it because isn’t the earth always moving around the sun at the same time also? and that sun with the planets also moving too?
@sarahbell180
@sarahbell180 2 года назад
I agree here that in essence the explanation really reduces down to the other one. It is not hard to show that all these perspectives and explanations are essentially equivalent. But, I believe you haven't fully grasped the meaning of the 'inertial frame switch'. You had shown in the first video a screenshot of the explanation from Schutz which I thought did a good job but essentially the crux is this. If we are to be talking about an observer, we ought to have a physical means of doing so. There is no physical way to travel such a path that instantly turns around. Mathematically, we require a differentiable timelike worldline to count as an 'observer'. This path is not differentiable at the critical point. As a result, we can not consider any physical coordinate description of that observer, because they aren't an observer in the first place. This is the solution to the problem so far as considering a physical paradox. However, this seems like a mere technicality and this gets into the 'inertial frame switch'. Moreover, in what respect can we not just consider the other frame? We may instead consider to physically accomplish the 'turn around' instead to have another spaceship to travel in the other direction when we meet, with synchronized clock settings at that point. Then, this gives an actual manner to accomplish what we want. But then it's clear that while this situation isn't the same as the other one (which, is seen to be aphysical), it does give in part an answer as to where that 'missing time goes', that of the skipping over when we switch to that other frame that has now different slice of simultaneity. Therefore, we are in essence asking to calculate in these coordinates, the time elapsed of a path that we don't even see fully. There is another well known instance where this happens-black holes. When one falls into a black hole, an outside observer will view it as taking infinite time, but the in falling observer will face in finite time. This is of course due to a result of our coordinates. With this understood, we see now why the 'turn around observer' should not be thought of as a frame but instead 'two frames'. In the accelerating case, it indeed should be thought of as a frame and I'll get a bit on the other video where that is addressed. It is not saying that the turn around observer is 'two inertial frames' but that the only operational way of describing the situation is by two inertial frames-our aphysical assumption about some impossible 'frame' is what leads us astray. As to the second half of the video... I must be must less sure. I have a few ways in which I think some things are wrong, but not myself any clear formulation. I prefer to come back to this question perhaps in the gravitational aspect that Einstein saw in the explanation, but having churned through some of my own research, find this question to be... very complex. However, here are a few things that come to mind- As to the conception of the 'inertial frame', as I mentioned in the past video, I find it highly unreasonable to 'remove the universe' and then ask 'whats the inertial frame'? Einstein's whole theory is based around the fact you can not separate the matter content, space-time coincidences out from space-time itself. Coordinates alone do not tell us the nature of our measurements, of the nature of forces, or dynamics. This is a well known aspect of relativity and certainly not one glossed over. For instance, in Newtonian dynamics, it is us on Earth that are essentially inertial and forces that act that cause free fall. However, in relativity, it is us that is in an 'accelerating frame' and those in free fall that are truly 'inertial' with no forces. This tells one that obviously the notion of an 'inertial frame' is fairly context dependent on our understanding of forces. This is naturally a point that is very complicated and I won't proclaim resolved. I will really need to think about it. It's in my perspective that the issue of 'what is an inertial frame' may be a red herring since in general relativity, there are no global inertial frames. As a result, it becomes only a local quantity. Laws of physics have to be formulated covariantly (I will right in the next video on exactly what this means since you mention it in there) Inertial frames simply arise as that which give the simple laws and follow along the natural path of inertia in space-time, independent to coordinate prescription that I believe to be trivially doable by linear algebra (the physics is in the formulation of the space-time in the first place, and objects as traveling on geodesics). It is thus us isolating out inertial frames and not the universe. Finally, I believe you mix up an epistemological question with an ontological one. It is us that decide how *anything* in physics works. Particles in free space simply abide by some rules that we try to ascribe. They don't have to 'know' if their frame is inertial-they don't need in fact coordinates in the first place. We use coordinates as a computationally convenient way to describe and label space-time. But if they were, they would need other physics information to computationally use. Here, this would be the metric, by which under our current theory of physics, would describe what forces they act under. Whether that is 'truly' happening under the hood is a question of ontology and science is always model based and we can never ever be sure whether anything in physics works the way it does we imagine.
@kylelochlann5053
@kylelochlann5053 2 года назад
Your comment is certainly one of the more well-reasoned I've come across. There is little point though in arguing with the video creator who has something in his head and will just shout down anything contrary to his own machinations. The fundamental gap I see in his understanding is that an inertial frame is one in which the 4-acceleration pseudo norms to zero, given a worldline (all worldlines are timelike by definition) \xi^a, we demand that \xi^a abla_{ab} \xi^b=0m which is empirically determined by an accelerometer. What he'll then argue is that invariant quantities don't exist.
@sarahbell180
@sarahbell180 2 года назад
​@@kylelochlann5053 ​ I pinpoint more, in terms of his main version of the twin paradox, the issue on asking for 'intrinsic metrical meaning in coordinates'. Frames and their measurements are local, and coordinates have no intrinsic meaning. In the math, you would have the metric needed in coordinate form. And in the physics, would need the results of how your coordinates would correspond to synchronization procedures of different clocks. I'm sure that already understands the point of inertial frames as geodesics (considering his other videos he made in that regard) and he certainly doesn't seem to deny invariant quantities but question to which degree these make 'physical sense'. The thing is, it is a very mathematical model of description and doesn't address in what respect we 'know' its inertia. An inertial frame is most motivated as being defined as that such that 'natural motion of inertia' corresponds to uniform motion. The issue comes in deciding what counts as 'natural motion of inertia'. In Newton, the 'natural motion of inertia' was a straight line and a gravitational force acted on it. Therefore, being held up here on Earth, would be in an inertial frame. But, In Einstein, the 'natural motion of inertia can't be this since now we ought to apply a *principle of locality* as well as the equivalence principle. Should we be in a free falling frame and see isolated objects behave inertially in the above sense, then know that free falling are in an inertial frame. Should we then be standing on Earth, considering that a falling object has no local interaction, should it then fall, tells us the 'nature of inertia' is not uniform and therefore is not in an inertial frame. The nature of an accelerometer is based largely on this principle, which for sake of visualization will simply consider as a spring. A spring is the tantamount model of local transmission in a continuum. Indeed, harmonic oscillators show up everywhere in physics. Should we calibrate the spring on the top, might achieve something we might perceive as equilibrium, but should we do it in on the bottom, shall see a different standard of equilibrium and hence may conclude in an accelerating frame that this calibration to be improper. If, should we instead presume a way to get them all acting in equilibrium, may have a fully workable notion of testing inertialness, as well as utilizing a 'ball of spheres' and testing for tidal forces. Now, epistemically, we can't preclude there wouldn't be some property that may influence this spring that we don't know. Before, we had mistaken such a force to be gravity. Should there be a charge on the mass of the spring and we were not aware of electromagnetism, it may be possible for distant objects to influence and thus conclude wrongly whether or not are 'inertial' based on this and this is the sense that Dialect means that it is based on 'contextual understanding of forces' but for pragmatics, don't view it as convincing and for philosophy, understand it as being the whole goal of physics to find the nature of inertia. To then act like its a big whole problem in relativity is to me mislead. The Lagrangian perspective gives a very nice viewpoint in then helping model systems since it tells us the ways the system will behave under the influence of no 'external' forces. Internal forces of other nature may come in. Then, the nature of 'natural motion' can help one isolate with respect to *systems*. In general relativity, we consider the principle of stationary action to in essence give the principle of geodesic action that you mentioned. In turn, the nature of inertia is given by a metrical consideration that should be coupled to any description we use in coordinates, and found experimentally by testing the model. Returning to wondering about establishing an inertial frame in Newton, we may apply the principle of locality and note we ought to separate away from the gravitational source to truly consider an inertial frame. Then, at a very large distance, act inertial. This is, analogously, in general relativity the idea of defining a 'standard of rest' by using 'asymptotic flatness' that helps resolve the paradox in some form. I am quite satisfied with this view.
@kylelochlann5053
@kylelochlann5053 2 года назад
@@sarahbell180 You write in a puzzling and mystery way, and I like reading it, but there's a some things in what you have there that come across as to me as wrong. An inertial frame is one in which Newton's first law is respected, for example, particles move in straight lines or they don't, or, if you have an accelerometer that is a cube with springs holding a central mass, the springs are of equal length, or not. I do agree that engineering a really good accelerometer is challenging, but whether or not a frame is inertial is decidable by direct measurement. This is routinely done with ever more stringent tests of Weak equivalence, Local Lorentz Invariance and Local Position Invariance which shows up as deviations in the expected values of the PPN parameters.
@sarahbell180
@sarahbell180 2 года назад
​@@kylelochlann5053 I'm glad you like the way I write, I just feel like on a subject on this, should fit a pondering mood rather than assertive. I give my definition of inertial frame because I want to highlight that it focuses on this notion of 'motion of inertia' in contrast to 'forces' and only introduce those later. We don't want to introduce fictitious forces but instead simply say 'the inertia of the object in this frame will have a different kinematic form'. With an invariant notion of inertia, can then consider 'okay, so now in which case does such inertia appear uniform?' and in this way ultimately preserve relativity. The definition I gave is essentially Newton's original form and they are equivalent. The issue then comes in considering whether something is inertial is considering what counts as a force that acts. For instance, in classical mechanics, we would understand our frame as inertial and posit a gravitational force as offsetting the natural uniform inertial path. On our springs in our room, we may then conclude we use the springs to measure this apparent gravitational force rather than measure how inertial our system is. We would use such springs to then measure such an acceleration in the first place. For the sake of classical mechanics, it is a very consistent and necessary approach. It is baked into the equations of classical mechanics. Another interpretation is that no, in fact, there is no gravitational force and in fact we are in a noninertial frame. We may conclude this by asserting the equivalence principle. We should then see the consequence of the springs differing not as a result of a force but as a result of our form of inertia in our frame. But that's the thing, we have to assert this principle and only then, I believe, can we be certain that our use of springs is an accurate determining factor. Now, there must be *some* reason to presume that the use of springs ought to measure an inertial frame that alone can not be tested since both of these views are consistent within their own theory of dynamics. I simply can not conceive in what manner you could therefore distinguish these without some other assumption. I'll be happy to hear your thoughts and be corrected, but I thought about it and looked into it for a bit and can't fanthom otherwise. Now, the equivalence principle can be framed in both. The weak form has been tested for ages and amounts to observing the fall rate independent of masses. In another form, we could say that the falling frame see the masses motionless and physically indistinguishable to an inertial frame (this is to be distinguished to 'actually' being in an inertial frame. for instance, Newton's laws would NOT imply in this form according to classical mechanics, since the gravitational force would not give way to an acceleration-it is this aspect that makes the equivalence principle based in part, on both an experiment but also an Occam razor type supposition, to conclude that should we physically measure ourselves in an inertial frame, *are*, no if ands or buts) Both forms account for forms of the equivalence principle, but neither agree on 'who' is inertial and 'which' are the forces. I look forward to being corrected if I'm wrong but this is the situation to the best of my understanding.
@kylelochlann5053
@kylelochlann5053 2 года назад
@@sarahbell180 You may be unwittingly embarking on a massive area of gravitational research, that is, testing the foundational aspects of the theory, and not part of most traditional textbooks (MTW being one exception that comes to mind). There are numerous equivalence principles the weakest (and so most important) is the EEP (Einstein Equivalence) which is the combination, EEP= WEP+LLI+LPI, so if any one of the three components of EEP fails, so do all of them (assuming Schiff's conjecture holds) and so would SEP, which takes EEP as a special case. EEP divides gravitational theories into metric and non-metric theories and metric theories can be further divided into pure dynamical and prior geometric theories. GR is the simplest case dynamical metric theory and what we'll assume to be the case. Your idea of springs is the standard way of determining if a frame is inertial. From what I gather (and correct me if I'm wrong) you're thinking of a simplest case (except for maybe a tennis ball in a frisbee) maybe a cube with 8 identical springs supporting a central mass? This works, and is both unambiguous and binary. In free-fall, or any inertial frame the mass will stay in the center of the cube, by definition. If there's some undiscovered 5th force of nature the mass will move off center, even if we don't know why we'll know the frame is non-inertial. In a loose manner of speaking this is how all accelerometers are devised, down to micron sized graphene accelerometers. We do have a notion of invariant inertia, that is of mass, which is the pseudonorm of the 4-momentum, m^2=g_{\mu u}p^\mu p^ u, (Schutz, p.50), but I wonder if you have a different meaning. I am interested in what you mean by inertia being "uniform" so any clarification would be helpful. I'll write equations in \LaTeX so you can easily copy/paste into an online editor. You could also create a Quora account where the \LaTeX engine is built in and it's easy to insert links and images to support the text. Here is fine too, either way.
@hannutiihonen9175
@hannutiihonen9175 3 года назад
What about this simple argument: Even though the situation is symmetrical if you think only moving back and forth, it is not symmetrical in one respect. Only the space twin resists the law of inertia whe he/she turns. There is something absolute in it even though you do not think how he/she does it. Even though you can think that the earth + the star move back and forth, they don't resist the law of inertia.
@dialectphilosophy
@dialectphilosophy 3 года назад
If we look at what constitutes the '"law of inertia", Newton's first law, that free bodies in motion stay in motion, it implicitly requires a frame from which said motion can be observed to be constant -- this is the "inertial frame." These concepts go hand-in-hand, since we only know the law of inertia is valid because we are in an inertial frame. (Newton's second and third law describe what changes in inertia / the inertial frame mean. All these laws of course are dependent upon being able to identify absolute acceleration.)
@mikegale9757
@mikegale9757 3 года назад
@@dialectphilosophy But the first leg of the journey is not symmetrical. How did the traveller get underway? There has to be a kink in one or both worldlines at some point in the past.
@massimilianodellaguzzo8571
@massimilianodellaguzzo8571 2 года назад
In my opinion the twin paradox can be examined without having to indicate that one of the twins turns around, switching inertial frame is not the solution and the acceleration also is not the solution. If one twin turns around, the other turns around and comes back too (I prefer to talk about the clock paradox), the astronaut twin can continue to travel with uniform rectilinear motion. (Why not?) In an empty space it's impossible to determine the solution but, if we know that one of the twins in the spaceship reaches a star, then the astronaut twin is certainly younger than Earth. (The Earth and the star belong to the Earth's frame and, obviously , the other twin must remain on Earth). If we don't have this information, Emmy's frame may also be younger than Albert's frame. (even "spaceship Earth" can travel while Albert is at rest), THE SOLUTION OF THE TWIN PARADOX IS INDETERMINATE!
@Etc2496
@Etc2496 2 года назад
I do agree that the other videos don’t give the correct solution to the twins’ paradox, but unfortunately I’m also not convinced by your arguments. You keep saying that acceleration is only a relative property defined through coordinates, but this is far from truth. The true spacetime acceleration vector is defined as the covariant derivative of the spacetime velocity vector in the direction of itself. This acceleration vector would be relative if the spacetime velocity vector is also defined in a relative way, but it’s not. The spacetime velocity is defined as the vector field whose vectors at each point are tangent to a curve in spacetime. If this curve is being traced by a real object (like a spaceship) then the curve is also a “real object” and hence should not change under coordinate transformations. Think about this like parallels and meridians on earth. Those imaginary lines define a coordinate system and as such they are arbitrary, but a plane taking a great circle path from London to New York won’t suddenly change its path if you redefine the coordinate system; it remains the same. So this means that the spacetime velocity is also real and invariant under coordinate transformations and hence the same goes for the spacetime acceleration. I think your confusion stems from thinking about the components of the acceleration (which are indeed relative) but not the vector itself. Physically, the accelerating twin would distinguish that they are accelerating by having an accelerometer with them, and that accelerometer would output a number different from zero, and this number remains the same no matter the coordinate systems from which the twins are looking at it.
@dialectphilosophy
@dialectphilosophy 2 года назад
An accelerometer itself doesn't measure "absolute" or "true" acceleration. It measures acceleration relative to whatever frame that accelerometer was calibrated in. It is impossible to use an accelerometer to determine whether a given frame is inertial or non-inertial, unless it is the case that such a frame has already been provided beforehand. Similarly, the world-lines, tangent vectors, etc. of objects in spacetime are all defined relatively to inertial frames. This leaves acceleration as having an ultimately relative definition itself (which is pretty apparent from the get-go, if one realizes its a purely mathematical construct). Absolute motion cannot be defined and, as Einstein put, "kinematically makes no sense."
@Etc2496
@Etc2496 2 года назад
​@@dialectphilosophy An accelerometer attached to your rocket will measure your true acceleration because being accelerated means that you are not following a geodesic path, and since the accelerometer is attached to your rocket, if you aren't following a geodesic path then the accelerometer also won't, and will register a number different from if you were in a geodesic path. This number won't change if you change the reference frame since the fact that whether or not you are in a geodesic path does not change in different reference frames. "Similarly, the world-lines, tangent vectors, etc. of objects in spacetime are all defined relatively to inertial frames." This is just not true. If you have looked at a differential geometry book you will see that everything, from manifolds to curves to tangent vectors and tensors are all defined to be coordinate-free (or reference frame-free). They can be decomposed into components if you choose a coordinate frame, but these objects are all ultimately geometric in nature. And since these are the objects used in relativity, that means relativity models the universe using coordinate-free objects that represent physical quantities: scalar functions, curves, vectors, manifolds, tensors, fields, etc. And yes, these are all mathematical constructs, but they are used for a reason. The principle of relativity tells us that physical laws cannot depend on any particular frame of reference or, in order words, they must remain invariant under coordinate transformations. Coordinate frames are the actual imaginary mathematical tools that don't exist in nature, like the parallels and meridians on Earth. This means that if we want to model what we observe, we must use mathematical objects that are also invariant under coordinate transformations. This means that 4-velocity, acceleration, etc., are the same no matter the reference frame, only its components change, which is what we see as "relative".
@Etc2496
@Etc2496 2 года назад
Think about this. A geodesic path on the surface of the Earth is a great circle. We can define each point of the great circle path using a reference frame, like parallels and meridians, i.e., coordinates. But the fact that the geodesic is a great circle won't depend on whether you used parallels and meridians to define it, or do you think that if we replace the reference frame a great circle will magically transform into something totally different? I don't think so, because the fact that a geodesic is a great circle path doesn't not change under different reference frames.
@florianrettaroli962
@florianrettaroli962 Год назад
I starded studying special relativity on my own, i don t get what s the problem or maybe i did not understand sr. From what i know in sr an inertial frame is one where all worldlines of a photons move on a straight line. Sr is based on the fact that light speed has to be the same in all of these frames and that the laws of physics are the same. By only assuming these two principles you can prove that two such frames are related by Lorentz transformation, and by using these transformation you can prove time dilation. In this video, by using the definition i know of inertial frame, both A and B cannot see worldlines of photons as straight, at least one of them has to be non inertial. The thing you cannot deduce is that the proper time of B is the sum of the proper times of his motions during the two situations i.e. proper time depends only on instant velocity and not acceleration. I think that the formula of proper time for accelerating particles is taken as an axiom, but it does not create paradoxes. Tell me if i got something wrong, i want to learn this subject.
@jonnyjonny2654
@jonnyjonny2654 Год назад
You are talking about coordinate acceleration, the accelarion to take into account is the covariant acceleration (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acceleration_(differential_geometr)), it's norm is coordinate independent . The twin on the spaceship is subjected to a proper acceleration ( during the "switch of the inertial frames") the earth twin no. The Christoffel symbols are not zero during the switching of the inertial frame, that is the cause of a gravitational force in the spaceship reference frame (curvature is zero but for the equivalence principle we can consider the force gravity) and the earth proper acceleration in the reference frame of the spaceship is calculated as a_earth = a_coordinate + gravity = 0, so earth does not accelerate while the a_ship = gravity = ship_propulsion that is not zero . To do some more rigorous calculus one could use the rindler coordinates (the coordinates of a reference system that is subjected to a constant proper acceleration) . The law of physics are valid in all reference systems (accelerated, rotating, polar coordinaes, ecc), an inertial frame is only a reference frame in which they can be wrote in a simpler way( for example the Christoffel symbols are zero in general in an inertial reference frame). If there are forces that are not four-vector and with a change of coordinates they disappear probably are fictious forces do to the coordinates chosen. ps. Sorry for the english.
@alchemy1
@alchemy1 Год назад
I want to tell you something. Read this carefully. This spacetime coordinate geometry is not the cause for anything, whatever or however it is drawn as an abstraction. The geometry is an effect, not a cause. Have you ever caught that as the first rule of relativity. Mass effect spacetime, it puts mass as the cause. Do not start with geometry and make as the cause. So tell me, what does acceleration do to the composit mass, i.e. the object ( the vessel and its occupants) that the mechanical force is applied to (i.e. acceleration)?
@ArnavBarbaad
@ArnavBarbaad Год назад
@Jonny Jonny- Yours is exactly the correct answer, but at this point I doubt that OP has the ability to comprehend mathematical physics, because he's going round and round with the philosophy, half of which is BS
@alchemy1
@alchemy1 Год назад
@@ArnavBarbaad I did find hole in that argument of mine. I realized that what I was doing is pointing to mechanical forces having effect on the composit objects time component, i.e. elctromagnetic forces working at the atomic level. Thus affecting it's intrinsic clock which is a function of EM frequencies. The only problem is that it is not so. Why? Because Mechanical forces are no comparison to elecromagnetic forces. What I did is to compare two different joules. Electromagnetic Joule and mechanical Joule. Both are equivalent. But what does that equivalence mean? Th EM joule is related to charge displacement, not mass plus it is not related to distance in space but in time. Energy of 1 coloumb of charge at a point or cross section. The Mechanical joule is a measured in distance as in 1 meter and is related to mass not charges, Ikg mass. The two are so different, it is mind a boggeling difference. One relates to charge of a particle and the other relates to it is mass. I calculated applying mechanical force on 1Kg of electrons to a distance of 1 meter for 1 second continously (Kg.m^2/s^) . And how many electrons would that be comparing to the number of electrons in 1coloumb passing a cross section ( not 1 meter) in one second. Imagine how many electrical joules is there to move 1Kg of electrons passing a cross section. Applying 1 joule of mechanical force can only move 10^18 charges , not 1KG of it, which is 10^42 something like that. It won't take 1 second, it would take millions of years of 1 mechanical joule to move 1kg of charges. So what is happening is Newton's law kicks in. When mass accelerates, if there is nothing around, the acceleration exerts force on its surrounding. No object has to be there. In Einstein, although on one hand he treats space as nothing, on the other hand he treats it as something and of course more, i.e. spacetime. As the object accelerates it applies force on space and space applies force of equal magnitude and opposite in direction. Space accelerates rushes in and therefore compresses, squeezes, shortens. The object thus can not move. This is treated as true stationary frame of reference. In other words the object does not move. That is how aaccelerating object is treated in the so called Reindler's system. Therefore an accelerating object is an actual stationary one. Therefore it sees other objects rushing towards it moving etc. The space component shortens and the time component stretches which the term dilate is used, rubber stretching. The same length of rubber as it stretches covers many of other non stretched rubber so to speak. it's one second length is the other's 3 second length so to speak. It is clearly non-intuitive and strange to say the least. Spacetime around massive objects is due to acceleration of the object which is not relative to another massive object. The two objects have their own relative relationship in terms of motion etc. It really is strange. Earth is accelerating in space but say you are in the moon, you don't see Earth accelerating, neither do we see moon to accelerate either. This explains the so called missing time in acclerating space craft. It is out of view of photons, clock measurement. Basically faster than light.... so to speak. It is on the other side of the light cone. There is even an event horizon there too. What can be said.....? I just need to sit down is all. 🙂 [ I should mention that although here the video mentions that acceleration is relative, in his latest video he describes Earth as an accelerating object at all times and thus the space surrounds it pushes back and that is why Earth does not fall apart. As every part of the Earth wants to move to more relaxed position than be crammed together, although he didn't say this, I threw it here the reason for it unless there are other reasons perhaps too]
@marcv2648
@marcv2648 Год назад
Dude, you're just reassigning your terms. This is a first principles issue. I see Dialekt is right. This is just whooshing over most heads here. Calculating anything is just glossing over the issue with nonsense. I see this as a big problem for physics. Feynman always referred to gravity as force. Physicists today will insist it's not a force, but even this can't save current theory. Yes, this is a big problem, and there is no good solution.
@oraora8214
@oraora8214 2 года назад
If "feeling the force" allows one twin to instantly age more than the other, does this not imply faster than light cause and effect?
@lourensstrauss1914
@lourensstrauss1914 2 года назад
No. That is the result of the referance frame (which is in this case is an accelerating / non-inertial referance frame) An analogy whould be if you are spinning. In your spinning referance frame, the stars very far away would be traveling faster then light
@oraora8214
@oraora8214 2 года назад
@@lourensstrauss1914 I never understood why accelerating non-inertial frames are not valid. If the cause of clocks slowing down is having relative speed then accelerated frames also do have relative speed, but it changes over time. So it should also have an effect on clock, the one that gradually changes. As for spinning - the distance between objects does not change when you are spinning. And if the distance does not change then distance per time (a.k.a speed) also does not change. You will only get faster than light speed if you try to measure speed not between objects, but between object and arbitrary point in space. But measuring speed against space itself is not valid anyway - in relativity only speed between objects makes sense.
@JackPullen-Paradox
@JackPullen-Paradox 9 месяцев назад
Here is a fact: if I know which of the twins is in actually motion relative to the other twin, I will know whose clock runs slower. This is also true if I am one of the twins. Now, as one of the twins I usually can't know this unless I experience acceleration or am able to compare our positions to some landmark. One landmark that should work in this scenario is the cosmic background radiation, I can have a pretty good idea who is in motion by comparing our positions to the CBR. Now, if I didn't have that advantage, I would need something like acceleration by one of us to see who was actually in relative motion. This kind of relates to the idea in this video of using force to identify the person who is accelerating, except that I am denying that acceleration is necessary. I think it is sufficient but not necessary--at least in principle.
@kylelochlann5053
@kylelochlann5053 2 года назад
Just wrong. Acceleration is a Lorentz scalar, a^\mu a_\mu=\alpha^2. A worldline is geodesic or it isn't. The TP considers the worldline arc lengths of two travelers, \Delta \tau=\int_\gamma d\lambda \sqrt{g_{\mu u}\dot{\xi}^\mu \dot{\xi}^ u}, between a pair of events. Time dilation is something else, the projection of the tangent vector to the traveler worldline onto a set of arbitrary basis vectors we identify with the "observer."
@dialectphilosophy
@dialectphilosophy 2 года назад
The shorter world-line arc-length of the two twins, and hence the one who experiences greater time dilation, is determined via which twin accelerates or “turns around”. But the framework of SR offers no mechanism for determining which twins’ frame is inertial vs. which isn’t, and hence leaves no way to determine who is truly accelerating. Thus both twins can argue they have traveled the longer spacetime world path.
@kylelochlann5053
@kylelochlann5053 2 года назад
@@dialectphilosophy Again, \xi^ u abla_ u \xi^\mu=\pm \alpha^2, which is a Lorentz scalar so your statement doesn't make any sense. EDIT: Furthermore, the twin can't argue if they carry clocks with them, so your statement that "both twins can argue they have traveled the longer spacetime world path" doesn't make any sense either.
@dialectphilosophy
@dialectphilosophy 2 года назад
@@kylelochlann5053 We suggest you think it through a little more critically rather than senselessly defending dogmas and spouting definitions whose foundational assumptions you clearly have never bothered to examine very keenly. Even Einstein disagrees with you - watch our other videos to find out why!
@kylelochlann5053
@kylelochlann5053 2 года назад
@@dialectphilosophy Well, we suggest you learn physics before trying to make videos about it. You are clearly ignorant of the basic definitions, so I must necessarily "spout" them to you. I am pointing out that your statements are contradictory and fallacious, so at the moment you have not presented anything to think critically about or that suggests established physics is somehow in need of defending.
@imaginingPhysics
@imaginingPhysics 2 года назад
Kyle, I think dialect has quite solid understanding of the definitions, math, and physics. If there are faults in his arguments, they are not trivial. I think you may be a bit quick in dismissing his point in this video.
@kaminapearl7390
@kaminapearl7390 2 года назад
Maybe that by conservation of momentum any force that a twin feels must be generated by the acceleration of a source? Like in the case of the rockets you get a new frame when you fire the rockets (The exhaust gases frames) and with 3 frames maybe you can resolve the paradox?
@xjuhox
@xjuhox 2 года назад
The twins travel different spacetime distances, that the solution of this "paradox" that has nothing to do with acceleration.
@Drenov
@Drenov Год назад
The acceleration could be a tiny part of the journey once the spaceship was up to speed it could coast so why would they age less on that part of the flight?
@EmKonstantin
@EmKonstantin 2 года назад
I don't agree with what you say at 4:55 about the fact that situation stays symmetric if we assume that twin B is in rest. In this case from B's perspective, at the beginning, twin A would move away being being behind him, then travel a huge semicircle to appear in front of him and then come back. This is not at all symmetric to the situation if A is in rest
@nadirceliloglu7623
@nadirceliloglu7623 6 месяцев назад
Unfortunately, Dıalect's video here is full of flaws. This guy is probably trying to prove three things, 1. Other you tubers about relativity are wrong or have a lot of flaws in theır presentation. 2. Einstein was not quite right and his theories had a lot of flaws. He probably hates Albert Einsteİn,the Genius. Why? Like so many others,he is probably anti-semitic! 3. Mr. Dialect knows it all- which he does not unfortunately. I really wished he would.. As a physicist for 30 years,I am quite sure this guy is not a phycisist,but rather an enthusiastic PHILOSOPHER! Dialect is wasting our time.. Take it from a PHD physicist. Let me correct the followings, 1. Special relativity deals MAINLY with uniform motion,inertial frames in FLAT SPACETIME! Yes,acceleration can be also included in special relativity,BUT at that time ( 1905,when special relativity was developed),nothing was known about General Relativity and about THE SPECIAL ROLE of acceleration in General relativity. So,that is not a contradiction in Einstein's mind blogging theories,but rather due to lack of knowledge 1905 on the acceleration on time diation.( which came 10 years later) 2. The twin paradox: Einstein already provided the solution to the twin paradox( NOT A REAL PARADOX AFTER ALL) in his 1918 papers stating very explicitiy that acceleration is responsibie for NON-RECIPROCAL time dilation of the travelling twin. He states clearly in his paper that upon turning back,the travelling twin goes through acceleration which can be thought of causing a gravitational field to arise. He also clearly states that due to the moving stars around the spaceship,a gravitational fied is created.( NOT THAT A SUDDEN UNIFORM GRAVITATIONAL FIELD AROSE BECAUSE OF ACCELERATION AS DIALECT CLAIMS!!) Acceleration is the only cause for the travelling twin to stay younger. Here is another proof: Look at the worldline of the travelling twin and at the stay at home twin. Compare them with each other. What do you see? The stay at home's world's line is longer than the travelling twin's worldline, which proves that the travelling twin MUST remain younger.. Bingo.. Nothing more,nothing less. Why to complicate it further?
@andreibaciu7518
@andreibaciu7518 Год назад
The real paradox was the twins we met along the way
@laerteoliveira7923
@laerteoliveira7923 24 дня назад
The real key to show there is no paradox is Rlativity of Simultaneity.
@david0fc
@david0fc Год назад
Instruments allow you to measure accelerations in every point of your frame if forces exist, while if they are ficticious or product of a coordinate change, then your instruments won't measure them. So it seems to me we still can observe forces/fields that way objectively.
@hannutiihonen9175
@hannutiihonen9175 3 года назад
If the travelling twin decides to think from the perspective of earth twin, does he make some enormous scientific error? He accepts that he is the one who is moving, makes calculations that his own time is slower and so on. Can he do some experiment there in the space (alone or co-operating), which contradicts his 'new' thinking?
@hannutiihonen9175
@hannutiihonen9175 3 года назад
@@silverrahul My question was unclear, sorry. I was taking it away, but because you answered, I try to continue. I think mostly about the simultaneity. If the space twin thinks orthodoxly, according to the special realativity theory, about the simultaneity, he says that earth time goes first slower than his, then faster near the turning point (or sudden jump) and then slower again. This is a bit peculiar. Does the earth clock really jump like this or to put it better way, is it obligatory to the space twin to think like this? If he decides to think that the simultaneity lines which are calculated from the perspective of earth are the "real ones", can he make some experiment which contradicts this? Those line are horizontal in the Minkowski diagram, clocks do not go varying (slow fast slow), but spacecraft time goes slower all the time smoothly. I put here again my drawing, the light gray horizontal simultaneity lines are drawn from the perspective of the earth twin. 1.bp.blogspot.com/-c8R_3BDVVuk/X_xJ0hgUW6I/AAAAAAAAd_s/hcsojNQDV-sIpSTLhNCMKWygMesc0IJywCLcBGAsYHQ/s960/Minkowski4.png (velocity 0.6c, distance to the star 3 ly/2.4 ly)
@corwin-7365
@corwin-7365 3 года назад
*Hannu Tiihonen asked:* _"If the travelling twin decides to think from the perspective of earth twin, does he make some enormous scientific error?"_ Not at all. *Hannu Tiihonen asked:* _"He accepts that he is the one who is moving, makes calculations that his own time is slower and so on. Can he do some experiment there in the space (alone or co-operating), which contradicts his 'new' thinking?:_ No. Both viewpoints are completely self-consistent. Problems only arise when somebody is careless and mixes the two viewpoints together at once!! In fact, people do this viewpoint change naturally all the time! For example... When you are driving along a road you (from your point of view) are stationary in your car while the rest of the world is moving past you. The friction from the moving air & road are trying to drag you with it, but your engine and rotating tyres are counteracting that and keeping you stationary. Meanwhile, from the perspective of a pedestrian, the road is stationary and you are moving. The air/road are trying to slow you down but your motor and wheels are keeping you moving. Both views are valid. And, indeed, the pedestrian's view is so common that while we are driving we also tend to shift into the "we are moving" model, and that is fine. It only falls apart if we mix them, trying to consider ourselves as both stationary and moving at the same time! :-) Which is "reality"? The answer is that neither are the one true reality. Some points of view are mathematically / mechanically *_easier_* (which can make them special) but being physical objects ourselves means that we must always experience the universe from a particular point of view. We also have the brains to calculate/imagine what it looks like from a different point of view, which is handy. Special Relativity is just the same thing! It just turns out that, because of the finite speed of light, moving objects become physically distorted in a way we are not used to seeing: contracting in their direction of movement and slowing their time flow. That means that shifting viewpoints is a bit more complex than we are used to (in out rather slow moving world where the effect is usually too tiny to see). But the principle is exactly the same. And the trap is the same too... don't mix viewpoints or you will end up in a mess!
@hannutiihonen9175
@hannutiihonen9175 3 года назад
@@corwin-7365 Thankyou!
@corwin-7365
@corwin-7365 3 года назад
@@silverrahul said: _"Near the turning point, in case of sudden jump from +v to -v, it will keep ticking at same rate, but there will be a sudden jump in the time reading on earth clock as well (due to changing of inertial frames by the space twin) . In case of gradual change from +v to -v, it will gradually tick faster and faster _(but never faster than space twin's own clock)_ and then, after the turnaround ( during which there will be many small time jumps in the time reading on earth clock ), it will gradually go back to ticking at the same slow rate."_ I will disagree with you here on the statement: _but never faster than space twin's own clock_ In the case listed in Hannu Tiihonen's example, the Earth clock shifts 6 years forward during the turn around. If the the turn around is instantaneous then that is a 6 year jump jump. If the turn around happens continuously over 1 day, then the Earth's clock will advance continuously (no jumps) and must advance 6 years in 1 day, which is a lot faster than the space twin's clock of 1 day in 1 day. Indeed in ALL cases, no matter how slowly the turn around, Earth's clock MUST go faster that the space ship clock at some stage because it _passes it_ in value.
@corwin-7365
@corwin-7365 3 года назад
@@silverrahul said: _"If the gradual turnaround is spread out over a long enough time interval, then the boosts are happening almost continuously, and the jumps in the clock reading are happening so quickly one after the other, that it is almost like the clock is ticking faster than the twin clock. At that point, it is hard to differentiate between the jumps in clock reading and the ticking of the clock."_ That's just calculus (which I just sort of assumed). Ie, you approximate with smaller & more frequent velocity jumps until, in the limit, it becomes a continuous acceleration, and the slow time plus time jumps becomes a continuous faster time tick. Since real acceleration is continuous I just jumped ahead to that. I guess not everybody studied calculus at school!
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