Yeah. Isaac is a really rng-reliant game but once you start getting the hang of it and to understand how everything works you can do crazy stuff on first floor to secure at least one devil item or two angel items if you're lucky enough, and from there its just snowballing, which is pretty cool because instead of feeling frustrating because its based on luck it feels rewarding because you can finally put the pieces together enough to come up with amazing rewards
Absolutely, had to stop watching after the StS part already. He somehow thinks that knowing what to do is not skill related. If I watch a new player play his first game of StS I can easily see that 50-70% of the choices they do are objectively wrong. The learning curve is astronomically high in StS and my dude says it's luck dependant, while it most likely has one of the lowest RNG factors in a Roguelite ever.
This is probably going to be a very ignorant question since I haven't played much of Slay the Spire or Spelunky or Noita but I always found game knowledge to be a lil' weird compared to executive skill-not to discredit any top players that put their time and effort into mastering what the games are about, it's still impressive, but if a game's main thing revolves around simply not falling for newbie traps or habits to be proficient at it, what's exactly stopping dedicated people from just looking up detailed guides or getting advice in the community and becoming just as proficient as the people that play the game much more in days? It's definitely unfair to deem this kind of thing as luck, but at the same time, if there's just a strategy guide online that just makes a new person's life a thousand times easier once read by the book then it gets into a massive grey area.
@@lurikitsune2384 for me it is mostly the ability to evaluate a new power or item in the context of your current run and then make decisions about what to do with said item. None of these games are a vacuum, so there are few items that are just flat out bad for the player. Knowing the game and how certain things work together are very important, just knowing what items are generally pretty powerful isn’t always enough.
Skill in ROR2 is tied to the luck. By manipulating the odds using probability or the order in which you get items you are significantly more likely to get strong runs. E8 & not using lunars is one of the harder challenges out of all the games I’ve played.
I feel ror2 is much more skill based than luck. Most characters have a way to use most items. As long as you know how to stay alive while dealing damage efficiently you are fine.
the thing is there's so many ways to manipulate the rng that you can't really say it's luck reliant. printers, shredders, recycler, multishops, soups, and bazaar all give you opportunities to mitigate any bad luck you might have. and even with that you could still beat monsoon while getting subpar rng if you're good enough. and by "good enough" i don't mean insane 500 hour players who can beat hades while purging all their boons and intentionally making the worst choices or any of that crazy out there pro player stuff. i wouldn't say it's completely skill but it's really close to it, and i definitely disagree with its rating as more luck than skill.
@Aaron King TLDR; Haha big toxic bouncy ball go brrrrrrr So the flat stone means you shoot out what is effectively a tear that skips across the ground like a rock on water bouncing multiple times which explodes in a little burst of tears or damage in a sense every time it lands due to haemolacria while the mysterious liquids makes a little toxic zone underneath where it lands each skip which enemies will be harmed if they stand on it which is all to say that’s it’s a pretty decent combination that works well due to the presence of the stone to activate the haemolacria and mysterious liquids effects multiple times.
@@michaelolivermorgan3513 however, during the beast fight, (semi spoilers here) this is useless because there is no floor during the entirety of the fight, making your tears useless cause they cant bounce
@@mellowmishXD it was even worse when haemolacria just went flying before the changes too meaning if you went in with it you’d have to stick to the bottom to even hit anything as well
slay the spire is atually quite skill based. First thing to point out is that, no matter the ascension level, you almost always benefit more from a small deck. On ascension 20, or high ascension in gerneral, you will plan which route to go through the map. Choose whether no not to fight elite. Choose weak common card to get through the first map till you find one of the vital card or relic. Some streamer, brkstar at bilibili is able to have a 100 streak on ascension 20 on both defect and the watcher. The skill matters a lot in slay the spire.
yeah when i heard the whole "you need to have a larger deck to avoid ascender's bane" point i paused the video so paralyzed by confusion sts does have luck as an element, obviously, but i think it's genuinely one of the most skill-based turn-based roguelikes out there, especially at higher ascensions
I think his definition of skill is way too much about "technical execution" rather than strategy and planning. In a roguelike! The genre about choices and progression. Slay the Spire might not have mechanical gameplay in the fights, but that's because the whole point of the game is to draft and build a deck. That's the mechanic of the game. Slay the Spire is all about taking the right decision at the right time, and that's a thing you can only do through your skill. It isn't just about knowledge about what card is strong and which card is weaker, it's about choosing the best path to take in the map according to your class, deck and boss. Then adapting to the situation you're in and perhaps change your path. Keeping in mind that the boss of the act might hard counter your class so you have to adapt to it. The fact that some cards like Corruption are run defining doesn't mean you instantly win by picking them, because even with an OP deck you'll eventually have to reckon all the bad decisions you took earlier and die. The argument about not being able to pick the last boss is just bad imo. The Silent is arguably the worst class in very high ascension count because you HAVE to face 2 bosses instead of 1 in Act 3. That means most of the time, you're gonna face the Time Eater which supposedly hard counters every Silent strategy and makes it very hard to beat in high ascensions. The Heart also hard counters the Silent. Well, there are people with HUGE winning streaks with Silent in Ascension 20 beating the Heart as well. If the game wasn't skill-based, then no one would be able to get winstreaks in A20H with the Silent. It IS skill based because no matter the luck, if you don't prepare enough for what the game has to offer you, you'll die, and that's called skill.
The thing i like the most about sts is the fact that common and uncommon cards are on average better than rares. The watcher barely needs rares to win since stance swapping builds are so strong and probably requires the most skill out of all the characters. You get a guaranteed rare at the end of every boss, so generally its better to be very generalised with deck building in act 1 unless you get a strong synergy. The fact that sts is rated with higher luck than isaac is pretty crazy considering 80% of items in isaac will just not really help at all. Most boss items are garbage and so many treasure room items are virtually useless that i’m so much more tempted to flat out reset on isaac than on sts.
Honestly in my opinion Hades is definitely one of the easiest games of the genre I’ve ever played because it only took me twelve runs to get to the final boss whereas in dead cells I find myself regularly struggling to get to the final boss even though I’ve beat it once before. But like you said, Hades really just has something special in the story department and as a fan of Greek mythology myself, it really is something special.
To be fair the comparison should be 0 boss cells vs base hades and adding like 5-10 heat per boss cell really If you do that they are not so different in difficulty
@@lucintis5295 Not at all. Where Hades' heat stops giving benefits and only hinders you after 20 heat, Dead cells continues to empower you with more scrolls, more routes, and the Legendary Forge at every BC
interesting, I'm the opposite - took like 30+ tries to get to the last Hades boss, then got dead cells and literally first-tried every single boss besides the last one
@@NatanStarke the highest skelly statue is 32 but there is no achievement. Technically you only need 24 heat to get all of the achievements and 3w heat to get all the skelly statues
As a lot of people said already i think a lot of the skill from isaac comes from knowing what you want to do with a run and whats the best way to move forward with the items/pickups you have
Would be cool if you also included Noita here, I'd say that one has a high score in both: with skill you can make anything playable enough to get through the game, but put good RNG on top of that and you can achieve truly insane power levels and go on those 10+ hour, secret hunting runs
I would say it's not just skill, Noita requires much more in understanding and game experience than pure mechanical skill, like knowing spell combinations, what enemies are dangerous, and never ever touch polymorphine
@@lawro2876 Well, yeah. I think this falls under the "skill" category, a.k.a. things that depend entirely on your mastery of the game, mechanical or theoretical. The actual mechanical skill requirement for Noita is quite low as far as roguelikes go
@@lred1383 true, decision making is part of skill, even the entirety of what it takes to be good at non action games like loop hero, even in dead cells you got biome choice and build selection
@@lawro2876 u can use polymorphine to get out of the holy mountain without triggering the collapse, i've got 700 hours so far and I don't see me stopping any time soon. Best roguelike to me personally, such a satisfying yet relentless experience.
You got it wrong with risk of rain lol, common items are probably the most useful, lunar items are really gimmicky and dangerous, and red (rarest items) are easy to acquire since you can have 1 100% of the time on stage 4, and a lot of them are pretty bad/not useful for most survivors.
yeah i was pretty shocked by the rating he gave risk of rain. any vet player knows its way more important to PLAY around the weakness of the survivor not just bank on items to fill the gaps. And when you understand the items well enough there are dozens of combinations that any survivor can make use of. If you're sitting around waiting for specific items or printers then youre doing it wrong and yes it would feel very luck based. not to mention some survivors are way more item dependent than others.
@@EthanC1030 god my favorite part of Risk of Rain 2 was using engineers grappling hook with the common that increases the amount of times you can use your secondary. Becoming Iron Spiderman is so fulfilling and so much fun
Slay The Spire is definitely a game that requires a lot of skill. Mechanical skill, of course not, but tons of tactical and strategical skill. You need to know what cards your deck needs to fight certain enemies should they show up (for instance, not picking up many block cards but trying to find higher-damage attacks in the beginning of a run in case you get Gremlin Nob), and to try to find those cards. Then it's a lot of risk-reward calculations, like "do I take 15 damage on this turn and guarantee to finish the fight next turn, or do I take 5 damage this turn with a chance to not kill next turn, and possibly take even more damage on the next turn?" Yes, there is a TON of luck involved, since you may get certain card/relic combinations early in the run that practically win the run on the spot (like hitting an infinite on Watcher with Rushdown and multiple ways to get into calm and wrath, namely cards like Inner Peace, Fear no Evil, and Tantrum), but the skill lies in proper decision-making for what cards and relics to add, how to spend money at shops, which paths to take, which options to choose for events, which potions to use and when, and which cards to play and in what order. Hades, to me, seems less luck-dependent in comparison. Out of what I've seen so far, the upgrades you get during a run are basically just stat upgrades, and most of the success of the run is just dependent on your skill and in-game knowledge. But of course, I don't have that many hours in Hades so I don't fully know. On the flipside, I do have over 100 hours in StS and have seen probably even more hours of StS content from high-level players, especially Jorbs.
The main thing about risk of rain 2 is that it is really easy to turn around a bad run by making the right choices, like getting the correct lunar items, scrapping and printing and also using multi shop terminals. And it is really easy to get ahead of yourself and go too long in a stage, the luck can stay the same but risk of rain 2 needs to be bumped up in skill.
Risk of rain definitely takes both skill and luck, not one or the other. (There is a lot more luck though, especially if you aren't using artifact of Command) Also, eclipse mode increases the need for skill a lot, but not as much luck.
I agree. I haven’t been able to win a lot of monsoon runs recently, and though that can be attributed to bad luck, a big factor is skill. It takes a lot of skill to manage time, get a good pool of items, and survive the onslaught of enemies.
YES, SOMEONE WHO I AGREE WITH!! Risk of Rain 2 i think is totally a skill thing, sure you get items from rng, but it provides you with a good deal of choice and ways of getting around the rng. My friend with many less hours than me struggles sometimes with rainstorm, meanwhile i can consistently get good runs on monsoon. It's just about skill. Also the person making this video I think blew the power of lunar items and to a lesser extent legendaries way out of proportion.
Risk of rain (1 AND 2) is almost exactly like Darkest dungeon. On the surface level, everything look to be luck-based and the player having to "just get a lucky run". "please, not this boss", "please this broken item", "oh no the collector, I'm dead 😢" Then, you realise it's not about luck, but how the player can manipulate the rng throught game knowledge. "Oh, this perk reduce chance of bad encounter", "this character favor my gameplay", "Oh, the collector just require to know how to deal with it then it's basically free loot for the rest of your entire experience." Yes, it's sometime feel unfair (and sometime is, because no game is perfect. DD1/2 used to have a fairly amount of bullshit but it get better as soon as the game get polished and is a reason to purposely avoid early access game if you can't deal with a game in its early stage. An excellent exemple is the streamer Wooly. Do you believe he would consistantly clear run in eclipse 8 if the game was this much reliant on luck?
Nice seeing NT, I totally agree. Everything feels like it's going good and then suddenly you lose 6HP to two bullets and die to an explosion. Plus, Melting is so difficult, basically requiring you to be flawless
That's exactly the reason I love NT. You're always in danger, but if you make small mistakes it's really easy to recover because of the way hp drops work. I can understand why people like EtG but I personally can't stand how small mistakes punish you so much. I like making risky plays but I feels like I'm heavily punished for taking a single hit of damage (lose out on boss HP up, the special shield that's unlocks one of the levels, etc...)
NT feels like an arcade game. Every run is just so frantic and quick, to the point where you either win or you die horribly. Everytime you die, you just wanna get back to it immediately. It’s incredibly addicting imo.
You could compare Melting and The Lost, but why do I feel like you can be best player in the world and still die as Lost to some bullshit, but can't say the same about Melting...
For beating delirium without any knowledge and by pure randomness, I Can totally Say ISAAC is more a Luck based game than a skill game Once you know how works item and how to optimise every run to have a lot of it, you have more than 75% chance to win
I really disagree a lot of you BOI fans in the comments are way too salty. Yes it takes "skill"(or a quick google) to remember item combos but it's still tied to luck
@@FiniteMan1933its more about knowing and coming up with ways to gain items and controlling the items you get. Easiest example is taking a mystery gift to an angel room or the secret room for better items than if you just used it.
Spire is incredibly skill reliant at a high level. The best players in the world will absolutely achieve 60+% winrate across the board at ascension 20 with act 4 included each run (with watcher being an outlier at like 95+%). It's pretty criminal to chalk successful runs to luck.
I don't know much about Spire, but from what you just said, if the best players in the world can only manage a 60% winrate, it sounds lik it relies quite a bit on luck. The best players in the world for Dead Cells, Hades and many other games can easily get a 95% winrate.
@@The_GronneIt is 60% at A20, a ridiculously hard difficulty. Im pretty sure All those players would have an almost 100% winrate if you are talking about the base game. I don't know what difficulty you are talking about for those other games and how it compares A20 on slay the spire, but A20 is insanely hard, i will tell you that. It took me more than 218 hours playtime to beat A20 once, when luck was in my favour. But even then, my winrate was probably like 3-4%. The winrate of top players being only 60% doesn't define skill, it only defines the luck of the game. And yes, the luck element is high. What defines the skill element is the different between winrates of top players and average players, which is absolutely massive in sts. As of now, only 5% of players have the achievement for beating A20 once on steam. And even in those 5%, majority of the players would have a ridiculously low winrate(
@@The_Gronne At the lowest difficulty It has been reasonably calculated that a win rate of over 99.9% is possible with all four characters. At the highest difficulty of Ascension 20 it goes around 70%/55%/60%/90% win rate on the characters when done optimally. Yes getting no attack cards on the first rooms and dying to forced elite enemy fight or the first act boss does happen, but good players know who to risk manage and find alternate paths if needed to get past these hurdles. So yes, luck is definitely a good bit of the game. I would have said about 4-6. Skill however is the most important factor as getting good cards doesn't just let you win. The game is not forgiving enough for that. Skill would be about 7-9
@@agenzmain6146 So if I do everything right and play as good as a TAS I win only a little over half of the time and you mean to tell me thats not rng? You can tell the difficulty of a game by it's win percentage for top players vs noob players, yes, but you can tell rng by top players vs themselves. If a player who is theoretically perfect only wins half the time that's a testament to bad game design. Just because a game is hard (aforementioned win rates) doesn't mean it isn't overly rng dependent.
I think slay the spire is a bit of an outlier in this list of games as it is entirely tactical and strategic, and while it doesn't test your physical capabilities, I would say that the game is much more demanding than the others on this list
@@fallongarens6734 I have 200h in sts and just under 150 in dead cells, sts at high ascension (how it is ment to be played imo) is incredibly difficult and over the course of about 1h runs you can at most make one or two mistakes before the run is dead and you really cant afford to make many small inaccuracies, Pseychie saying if you get corruption you win is just plain out wrong over asc 5, dead cells with high boss cells is very demanding do imo mostly to the time system, I have won my first run in dead cells on 0 boss cells because I just didn't see the mechanic and played slow and methodical, overall the enemies represent a threat but mostly you want to get the bosses untouched and try to only get dmg in the biomes and even then you can only afford one or two hits at most. overall sts and dead cells are both hard but (again imo) sts in high ascension is more demanding overall
@@devinloew7681 I think what you mean to say is strategy in sts is much more abstract than a side scrolling action game like DC. Like my first complete run to Dead Cells was quicker than my first victory at the 3rd boss or heart, but I needed to evaluate cards better in order to get there. In DC, I just got my first victory by trial and error.
it's definitely stupid to say that RoR2 has a big item discrepancy. white items give better stats, green items give extra effects to your hits and kills, and red items assist your green and white items and make them much more powerful. having only one of each type is awful, and most ror2 players will tell you they would rather have 3 white items than 3 green items. also, lunar items are in no way overpowered, as they have big downsides and picking up pretty much any of them is a terrible idea unless your build is focused around it.
I have ~250hrs in Slay the Spire and I can say that the game is getting really hard on higher ascension levels. There is much to understand in this game and making the best decision can be quite hard. Personally I mostly play Defect and I am stuck on A17. Beating A20 is a skill accomplishment because you won't get it if you simply hope for luck and go in without much thought.
I have the most fun playing defect, but it is the hardest character at higher ascension levels. A20H took a lot of tries and took a good amount of luck for me. It's probably a 6 on luck and a 7 on skill.
@@brettmartin3529 thank you for reaffirming that I'm not bad or crazy, but defect is also my fav character and these ascenion tiers are killing me, but catching my other characters up is significantly easier
My method is to watch pro player ranking cards, relics in which they would explain when, why you should buy or get them, what they interact with and make out the best of them for the situations. Knowing the monsters' pattern is essential too.
The binding of Isaac is probably one of my favourite games just ahead of Gungeon, and I personally think that the main skill elements doesn’t come from dodging but more from tech and game knowledge. Like, sure, a bad player with op items will be able to do better than a good player with Isaac’s heart, but I think what mainly separates good and a bad players is the ability to make the most of bad situations, things like using mystery gift in the secret room, or using the lover’s card in that one black heart secret room.
@@bullettime1116 So true. People just are scared to try it's rework. I obliterate most runs with Isaac's Heart now that I pick it up almost every time I see it. It's just an item that takes learning how to use it correctly with great rewards for doing so.
Complete opposite for me. I *strongly disliked* almost every single mechanic in the game - I could go on for hours about everything I think EtG did wrong. Felt designed to be anti-fun from the top down, just didn’t mesh well with me ig. Ironic, considering I’m a huge roguelike fan. Nuclear Throne, Skul, ItB, and Darkest Dungeon are among my favorites.
@@thewovenmantis6813 I’m just curious, but what are the things you mostly didn’t like. And also what are the thing you do like that makes those other games stand out for you? I’m trying to find my next roque like so yeah. I’ve played EtG, Dead cells, cursed god(not the real name but can’t remember atm), Isaac and Noita. I’ve found myself to be quickly bored with Dead cells(even after multiple boss cells) and cursed god due to the amount of button mashing. So yeah
S2 felt like more luck than s1, you'd die to stuff off screen or have to play super slow just to avoid death. i guess the latter is part of the skill required
@@johnsmith-fk7fw I think it is a function of which you played first. I actually played through S2 first since I was late to the series, got all achievements in S2, then played S1. Doing that I had a really good feel for S2 and found myself with a lot more “cheap” deaths on S1. Plus the difficulty of S2 true ending being soooo much longer and more complex raises the skill ceiling significantly.
@@blightyfrogs it's not guaranteed, you have to overcome the vlad castle which requires some steps to enter and is quite difficult to new players, it's more like a high risk trade I would say.
@@alwayrember193 The boom fly bridge that is trivialized ba T. Lost flight ability? Thaaat bridge? Oh nooo what shall I do, I must doge to the side! aaaaa
A mistake on The Binding of Isaac: There Rarity/Item quality system you mention does not affect the chances of the item spawning. It only affects certain mechanics and only influences 2 characters in the game (Tainted Cain and Tainted Lost) despite that, I do agree with the point that some runs will be significantly better than others though
@@fiona9891 it USED to affect the chances of the time spawning; when you had a special item the game had a chance to reroll other special items youve found, but this mechanic was changed in repentance for all items to have the same chance
@@fiona9891 no, the item WEIGHT system does. for some of the high-quality items, they do have a lower item weight, but a lower item weight can also be on worse items or downright useless items, like Plan C having a 0.2 item weight.
In Hades there is definitely a reason so go past 20 heat. You unlock the last Skelly statue at 32. One Step From Eden looks extremely similar (gameplay wise) to the first 4 MegaMan Battle Network games so I'll check that out! I like the list. Skill rating feels off at times. And maybe a couple of games could have had the same scores
A little addition to his Isaac section: People have reached over 1000 winstreak, not just 100. And that as Eden, a character with which you could spawn on 1 (technically 2, depending on incoming damage type) health. You could also spawn with at item that displaces your hitbox, or makes you deal damage to yourself. If you are good enough, any run is winnable. Of course, you could also get a 2 item combo which practically gives you a free win. I might've wanted to put a 10 on both skill and luck. People with thousands of hours still find new synergies they've never seen before, REGULARLY. I love TBOI
Mean while in Noita, A random enemy pick up a wand that have a nuke in it and fired it at a rat nearby, all of this happend off screen, you just standing still doing your business and get ass blasted by that nuke. you have no idea what is happening, you just died. Lmao
Noita's skill is salvaging luck and dodging all the weird shit the game throws at you. That and game knowledge like what combines with what and which places have secrets.
There is no reason to ever in your life lose an Isaac run once you master the game. At least in the state it's in now the game gives you too many opportunities to get yourself an advantage even if items are randomized
@@levelmake7758 some people refuse to take randomized stat items like pills or experimental treatment without a good buffer amount of stats like with more than one speed, then I personally never take blind items for the risk that they'll be dunce cap. Sorry but like genuinely skill issue. And this is coming from someone with 2k hours on steam and 1k on switch and I've never had a win streak of like over 10 every L is my fault and that's why Isaac was good
@@levelmake7758like Pablo Said master the game, If you had that strong of a build why did you Gamble picking a random item that you didnt even knew what It was?
@@levelmake7758 after taking a fat speed down (which was a gamble you didn't have to take), you make the bright decision, out of 4 boss rush items, to take one of the biggest speed downs in the game. None of that was rng my guy
Every video you make is an absolute treat to watch. I'm currently getting addicted to roguelikes so this video is just perfect. I'm mid improving in dead cells trying to beat 2 BC and I bought hades yesterday. Keep it up!
@@guipinus same I started to get addicted of roguelike games because of enter the gungeon. Had hundred of hours with everything unlocked and sadly now moving on to other games like dead cells
I definitely agree with a high luck rating for RoR 2, as the sheer randomness of the items can mean that you could end up with borderline gamebreaking combos at the very first stage of a run (capacitor + gesture + double bands for example), however a skill rating of 5 just doesn't cut it imo. Even with the amount of luck involved with the games items, with proper decision making a run with a bad start can become as good or even better than a run with a god start, for example, the numbers of enemies are increasing and you're starting to have trouble dealing with them all, do you scrap a few white and green items and hope for a good printer on the next stage, if yes, let's say on the next stage you get both a white and green item printer, both of them have good single target items, do you print those to deal with individual enemies faster or do you save your scrapped items and hope for a chance to print actual aoe items? Some of the factors that come into play here are: what survivor you are playing, what loadout do you have on the survivor, what equipment item do you have, do you even have an equipment item, what other items you already have, do you care about spending lunar coins to get to the blue portal, what stage you are on and if you plan to loop your run, and so on. And that's just the decision making part, the gameplay itself isn't relying on luck, i can almost guarantee that if someone is only relying on luck to get through the game, they will die if they ever activate 2 mountain shrines on stage 1, while anyone who actually knows how the survivor they're playing works should be able to get through it without too much trouble and get free extra green items. In conclusion, luck rating of 7 or 8 is accurate, but a skill rating of 7 or 8 would be much more appropriate instead of 5. 2:13 definitely true
I've only dealt with the first ror, and it's still been kicking my ass. I only cheesed it by getting like three double jumps and spamming explosives as bandit. So I'd assume ror2 has the same skill ceiling and problem of cheesing
@@kabfridepoblus6951 absolutely not. There are not really any broken classes or cheese methods as the later into the run you go, the more cluster fuck it becomes. (loader is op but we don't mention her). In general. Even if you have the most busted build ever, if you mispositioned at 90+ mins, it's back to the lobby.
@@kabfridepoblus6951 you probably could, but that'd take a while. And he'd probably jump up and charles barkley you into the ground as he has done to me many times.
I believe that nuclear throne, which I agree on there being lots of skill and not a lot of luck, should have a bit more luck than it has. The mutations and weapons you get early game really decide your fate for the late game.
This is facts. Sure, you can 'beat the game' with shitty mutations and shitty weapons if you're good. But nobody really wants to do that anyway (cause it ends your run). The devs only added the ending in a later update. You're supposed to loop and go on as long as you can. On loops, builds without melee weapons are objectively worse. So not getting Long Arms is terrible. And on specific characters, not getting Throne Butt is terrible aswell. Other than that there's a few mutations that if you don't get the option to pick them it's annoying but still fine. But with either of these two, you might as well restart if you don't get them.
@@racket804 that is just one of the finales, the aim of the game is imo achieve everything, which is basically obtain every character, get hard mode, get the frog, get all crown wins, all the character skins and 100% the game.
Regarding Slay the Spire’s third boss, I enjoy the strategic mix-up Time Keeper throws at you. It forces you to adapt your plays to a different rhythm, and get you to think several turns ahead for the win. So what if it shuts down infinite combos? Turns out that most infinite combos in the game don’t need more than 10 or 12 cards to crush each fight, so just because you’re not abusing infinite damage does not mean an auto-loss. Slay the Spire is meant to push you and your deck-building skills to their limit, which means throwing enemies at you that counter whatever strategy you’re currently running, and you finding the win in spite of that through superior planning and card playing. That’s the core fun of Slay the Spire.
Yeah, the third bosses being that way is my favorite element of the game. You can either 33% chance it for your combo deck, or more strategically, add elements that help in all 3 scenarios, which is how you should really be building your deck in the first place.
@@scottwhitman9868 It hates infinites that only do one thing. More broadly, the game hates decks that only solve one type of combat and forces you to try and solve every combat that you can within your deck. Plenty of infinites are viable even at A20. Most Watcher runs go infinite to some degree, Ironclad has many infinite options with exhaust synergies and various damage sources, even Silent and Defect have infinites via discard and Recycle, respectively. It's all about solving the problems you need to solve appropriately.
I feel like you're really underrating Slay The Spire on skill, luck rating seems spot on though lol. I'm no Jorbs but I have completed the game on A20 with 3 characters (2 of which were modded, the 3 are Ironclad, Bug Knight and Marisa) and I've found there's a lot of room for skill expression in: - routing - card choice - card removal choice - play order - relics - planning Especially planning. Planning wins runs. For example, Marisa has an archetype of cards based on Sparks. Sparks are 0-cost cards that do 4 damage and exhaust, basically they're Shivs. Sparks are strong, but they get countered by Time Eater. Early in my run, even if I have a decent Spark deck going I have to step out of archetype for answers to Time Eater. As you correctly say, I'm not going to beat Time Eater if my gameplan is spamming 0-cost cards, even if that same game plan would run over, for instance, Awakened One. There's a 33% chance I fight Time Eater. I have to have something for Time Eater. In Marisa's case, that might mean I want to fit a Charge-up package in my deck and instead of spending my turns spamming Sparks against him, I spend them turtling up while I build up charge to oneshot him several turns down the line. It's not about picking an archetype and jamming every card you find that fits that archetype into your deck, because that's how you run into a hard counter and just lose. It's about picking the best choices from what you're offered and filling in gaps in your deck so that when you get thrown against Awakened One as your A3 boss, you don't just die because your deck is 100% dependent on Powers you're punished for playing.
Exactly, StS is all about planning and building in contengincies for encounters you know you may face. I've beat Time Eater plenty of times with a "shiv" or "infinite" deck, I've also lost plenty of runs with Ironclad after picking Corruption when it was a terrible choice for what I had rolling but I was too stubborn to see that. I think the tough thing to learn with StS is that you have to throw out the idea of combo archetypes from other card games and instead choose cards as solutions to problems you may face. :D
I’d say the luck rating is a bit high too. You can def luck into wins but lucking into loses is pretty much something that never happens unless you were super fragile, in which case you have made a big mistake earlier. I’d say the game is 10 skill 6 luck
@@iwastherain I laughed when he said RNG killed his run by spawning a certain boss. Right, so you've just encountered one of the relatively small numbers of enemies you have to think about and plan for next time. The game didn't just invent the boss on the spot, he's something you're going to encounter a lot and will lose to again if you don't take him seriously. It all down to the player. If all he's doing is playing each roguelike for about an hour yes he will be at the mercy of whatever the game throws at him. You have to learn how the game works for a bit before you can become skilled at it. The fact that you've hardly played it and don't know what to expect doesn't make it a luck driven game.
@@BlueZirnitra i kinda hate on slay the spire when the game gives me a fun build and then it throws a boss that completaly counters it at the end, its a issue that Monster Train solved by just telling you which final boss you are getting on that run after you pick your starting deck. That for me makes the game more interesting cause you can make a deck that could beat it 100% of the times but risk losing to regular enemies on your way there or a more balanced deck against everything and make your final fight against him harder.
In the vein of Slay the Spire, Monster Train is possibly my favorite roguelike, along with Hades. You build your deck like StS, but with cards from two different clans of demons (each of which has unique starting spells on top of the Strike/Defend equivalent), and you also start with a few randomly determined spells to round out your starting package. This makes each run start more unique than StS runs. It's also got another layer of mechanics, in that you have to arrange the units you play on the three floors of your train, and enemy units will move up one floor each turn. You really have to strategize each turn to avoid getting overwhelmed.
Half the fun of slay the spire is building decks than can fight all the different act 3 bosses. A20 makes you fight 2 of them anyways, if you're losing runs because you got a bad act 3 boss, it's because your deck wasn't built properly, not bad luck. Ive killed time eater with an infinite, just gotta make sure that infinite generates about 40 block while it's doing it's thing. The variance comes in what card rewards you're offered and what relics you get.
I have put quite a good number of hours into Slay the Spire and the skill rating it got here is not deserved. Granted, yes, it is heavily reliant luck of what you get in terms of items and cards, but you need to know how to approach each situation and that takes a certain level of skill that you acquire after playng the game for so long.
Although I agree, based on the rankings, I think this list is more or less ignoring" knowledge check" kinds of skill. Thats why binding of isaac is so low in the skill department as well
After reading a lot of comments and spend several hundred hours in StS myself I can tell you it’s a knowledge is power kinda game but to 11 and kinda bullshit If you don’t know everything there is to know about your character and what’s available to them you’re going to fail, the problem is that what RNG is in the game often masks what a player does wrong and as such it’s incredibly difficult to learn what you did wrong without watching others. That’s generally regarded as bad game design, even when said game is fun.
Yeah, I agree it doesn’t deserve that skill rating. The important skill of slay the spire is actually managing that high degree of luck. That’s not a mechanical skill, but it is a skill nonetheless.
@@domp2729 unless, you noticed that there were certain combos you could've picked along the way The game's cardpool size is balanced such that it seems in any given run, there are always at least 2 different viable strats
I think once you play enough rogue likes, it’s common to get extremely far or even “beat” them on your first run, but it’s just because you have a leg up knowing how the mechanics typically work. I also think it just varies from person to person because I know for me I found dead cells extremely easy but it took me a sad amount of runs to ever beat Hades for the first time.
Idk I’ve played a lot of RoR 2 and while really bad luck can kill a run and really good luck can make it a lot easier, it feels pretty consistent in difficulty most of the runs, leaving most of the emphasis on skill (this is just imo, I also don’t think it’s the highest skill game but knowing how to manage your build can save a lot of bad runs)
In my experience, as you get better at RoR 2 you start to realize its far less luck based than you originally thought. Getting bad items can definitely hurt and sometimes kill your run but you have way more control over the items you get than it seems when you're new.
3:10 this is what divides BoI noobs from experienced players- these three are definitely not "run ruining items" (except in some combinations with others, but that can then apply even to ipecac etc.) Yes, it is harder for novice to adjust to these, but that's where you build skill and learn to gain benefits out of them, and they are not ruining runs. Its like my friend who just started recently playing BoI said the "Chocolate Milk" is the worst item. Also 280 hours for game like Isaac is decent, but I'd say you finally start to master game after 600th or 700th hour.
Right? As soon as I saw soy milk, I couldn’t trust a lot of what he said. There’s no way, it has helped so many of my runs in repentance. I love that it’s a tear multiplier now instead of a tears all the way up.
I just recently got into Enter The Gungeon and it made me Enter The Pharmacy for a bottle of Xanax after completely raging out and destroying everything in my neighbor’s front yard because I can’t get more than 3 or 4 levels into the damn game without being absolutely demolished by those little bastards.
@@blulunarity yes it is a great game, highly addictive! Funny seeing this comment I made when I bought it 8 months ago cuz I’ve put in a few hundred hours on it lol. There’s a LOT of content and replayability and the wiki really helps! Lots of secrets, characters to unlock, hidden levels, tons of stuff! Enjoy!
While luck is certainly a large factor in Risk of Rain 2, I oftentimes find that good pacing and knowledge of stage layouts (Newt Altar locations, places the teleporter likes to spawn, abusable geometry, etc.) can circumvent the need for luck tremendously, even with Commando, the so-called weakest survivor (false). And with the scrappers, printers, and multishops, there's almost always a degree of conscious choice in determining what you get out of a level, even if there are still no guarantees.
I will 1v1 you in Melty Blood in a phone booth on Wall Street and probably lose but I'll send a message (Since this the internet, I feel obligated to clarify that I'm joking)
For some reason he seemed to not count game knowledge into skill. I agree that it's not really a "skill" per se to know that this item does this and that enemy does that, but _understanding_ these things is where it becomes a skill. Knowing how to make game mechanics work in your favor is a huge part of a game like Slay the Spire or Isaac (and I suppose RoR2 as well but I havent played that one very much).
That isaac being mostly luck is very wrong, people are able to do top notch bosses like mega satan, hush or the beast, with either no items with a certain character or minimal items, the game lends you countless ways to break trough it to get even better stuff and you mostly need knowledge to do so which i learned by mods and some yt videos over 2 weeks, easily to get streaks in it too if you aim your run in perspective to what you accomplished, skill issue Edit:Obviously luck plays a big role on how powerful you are, but that still doesnt mean you wont be able to win your run because of it anyways, its even easier now after repentance with the alt rooms, like letting you pick the item in the treasure room or choose one randomly, also the mirror floor with an extra boss item
@@lukebytes5366 thats plain wrong, especially since Repentance. There are so many ways to optimize the runs if you have sufficient game knowledge that its borderline impossible to have a "trash" run.
@@derrickshowproductions3010 It has reliance on luck yes, more than EtG for example, but my point is that you CAN mitigate that with skill and optimizations, unlike StS where you are kind of at the mercy of the game.
Hello, i have a lot of time on risk of rain 2, and personally i'd like to say that throughout most of my runs, some of the legendary items don't actually do all too much. only a select few like meat hooks, or ceremonial daggers or a few others really skyrocket your run. and for lunar items, most of them are actually more detrimental than beneficial aside from shaped glass and gesture of the drowned. Later game, and early game you'll find that common items and rare items are so much more important than getting legendary or lunar items to make a build. Those two rarities are the most important items throughout your run. if you were to only pick up red items, you would have few healing items, little to no defense, and ok damage. but add in a couple white items and you have a great build. To attest to the skill of the survivors, or characters, being smart with how much time you spend on stages and deciding what abilities to use on what and when is extremley important early game. if you aren't progressing at a fast speed early on in a run you are gonna get decimated by any later stages. unless you spend even more time playing catch up with items. although on monsoon, it's very difficult to get god runs, or basically just become immortal. on monsoon all of the enimies are much much more challenging. the final boss difficulty scales VERY drastically between difficulties. I resign.
I can recommend Wizard of Legend, especially to people who like a decently strong control over their builds. Charming art style, a small but good soundtrack, and amazing spell combat based on the elements (think of Avatar TLA).
Wizard of legend is really good, but like every other roguelike, there’s quite a few enemies that will have you screaming “BULLS***” at your computer. but man, those bosses feel so good to fight.
Whoever said that lunar items are going to extend your run is an idiot lol. The whole thing about lunar items is they have a positive and negative affect, and the negative affect is usually more bad than the positive affect is good. That being said, some lunar items can be worth taking in specific circumstances, and there are like 3 lunar items that are always good to take. ROR2 is by far my favorite game, close to 350 hours in it. Your rating is probably pretty accurate. A lot of the “higher skill” players in risk of rain are good because they have an intimate understanding of the mechanics in the game. I mean they are also good at fps games, but honestly you don’t have to be good at fps games if you understand the mechanics. Knowing when to farm loot or go to the next floor. When to scrap items and what items to print. Knowing things like one hit protection, and how to double it with barrier. Knowing how to form proc chains, or knowing the number of items you can take before it’s maxed out. Basically, my point is, the skill in this game ultimately comes from knowledge. You can have an elite fps player do trash compared to someone who just knows how the game works.
One thing i like about EtG is that it's really easy to pick back up if you haven't played in a while, while something like Hades it feels like if you drop it for a month it takes a bit of time to get back into the groove.
3:36 that's wrong. The item quality does NOT make it rarer. A sacred heart has the same chance to appear as breath of life, what determines an item rarity is the weight wich has nothing to do with it being good or bad. The mechanic that made "good" items rarer if you had already seen a "good" item was removed in repentance
the quality, is in fact non relevant to how rare they are however, each item has a weight in each pool, such as Magic Mush or Spindown dice in the treasure room which have a weight of 0.1. making them way less likely to find in this room than every other items
@@djevebran2432Weight is, however, seldom used just to make good items rarer. Its used to avoid oversaturation. R Key for example, one of the most objectively powerful items in the game, has a weight of 1. The standard, and highest it goes.
Perhaps a bit of bias but Dead Cells and Risk of Rain 2 absolutely prioritizes skill and good decision making over pure luck. Skill isn't just pure execution but they both have high level movement and combat options that are essential for run consistency. RoR2 and Dead Cells have found a good middle ground loop of emergent gameplay and spontaneous choices imo. SuperHOT MCD did a good job at this as well. All in all I agree with the list but I'd swap RoR2 with a 6 in skill over Hades easily. Having to choose your end game is meaningful as they are both hard in their own way. As much as I like Void Bastards, it's heavily luck driven for "smart" decisions to matter but Hades is on the opposite end where the feels like it's designed to be a digestible roguelite that newcomers can actually finish It's a good entry level roguelite with less to chew as time goes on.
That's a big reason I dropped Void Bastards. I had great runs where I felt like I did everything right but the RNG just keep giving my junk and then runs where I was playing mediocre but I kept falling into health + ammo
That's the same with Slay the Spire. The difficulty comes with building your deck - you have to juggle staying alive, closing out games, and what powers you get whenever you add/remove cards.
8:30 for risk of rain 2: lunar items can be complete game changers, but they aren't guarantees for success. Infact, I'd wager to say that it's probably a bad idea to count entirely on them. Even on drizzle, I lose regularly to both the final boss and other bosses inbetween. Skill and luck is needed, at least until the command artifact comes into play (it lets you choose your items)
@@bingbong1966 No you can’t lmao, take fighting games for example. You don’t need luck to have fun since nothing barely anything is luck based on those
In defense of risk of rain 2: there is more to the system then what you said. Mainly, that while legendary items can take you further into your run, it doesn't guarantee it. Infact, it can sometimes kill it if you get the wrong one. Along with lunar items (though those have a more obvious effect on your game). There are several legendary items can can screw you over if you get them, and thus makes them unnecessary to thrive. This is all assuming you don't run the artifact of command, which can allow you to choose what items you want from that category of rarity. This can and does change how you prioritize items, and can outright make insane builds that literally wipe the map clean. Honestly, it's fun when you get to that point
I'm an Isaac player but in my opinion it's more skill than luck, you can get a crap run but on that same run you could literally make it to The Beast and still win, with nothing but 3 dmg
@@dominoree I agree, I was gonna add if you have played the game long enough and know what you're doing you can turn that crap run into an even better run
From my own experience I feel as though Isaac has more skill than what you gave it. Playing perfectly for some people isnt out of the question and that can lead to devil deals/angel deals and the perfection trinket. Plus gives you opportunity to use blood banks and judgements. For risk of rain 2 I'd say legendary items arent needed to win a run. Stacking common items which is relatively easy if you use printers to sacrifice your other items of the same quality you can get stacks of really good common items and that can help carry a run more so than the rare items.
As someone with >1500 hours in Slay the Spire I'm so mad that I don't even want to write a 7 paragraph essay on how extremely skill based it is. I will say, however, that if your deck relies only on an infinite to win and you know that you might fight Time Eater, you should've built a better deck. The game even shows you the last boss so you have the whole act to prepare for it. And obviously, corruption doesn't win you the game and will probably hurt you if you pick it up too early.
Dude I'm with you, when I saw how low he ranked StS I couldn't take his opinions seriously anymore. Slay the spire is the most skill-heavy roguelike on the list and it's not even close.
You guys don’t understand his rating systems. Knowledge on how to play the game doesn’t seem to be his criteria for skill, his criteria for skill is literally the mechanical act of playing the game. For example, street fighter might have a skill level of 10 and luck of 0 because you literally can only play the game mechanically. Low skill level doesn’t mean “the game is easy” or that you can only win if you get lucky, what it means is that if you get lucky, anyone can win, but players who have a good understanding of the game will obviously do better. I have never played sts, but based on HIS criteria for rating, idk if I would have even given it a 3. If you are going to say how he defines skill is wrong, then you are arguing semantics and it literally has nothing to do with the game. If you use his criteria, can you honestly say the mechanical act of playing the game is high skill?
@@andrewevenson2657 Extremely long rant warning, tldr at the end. Putting aside the fact that redefining words just so they work against you is a pretty bad idea (could've called them "mechanical skill" and "variation"), he states at the beginning that a 1 in skill means that anyone can play it and a 10 that it's dark souls, implying that skill means difficulty. Not only that, but he's constantly fighting his own definitions, like in BoI, where he says "one cannot deny that luck also plays a factor ... some runs will be significantly easier than others" which means that luck affects wether you win or not and not just variation. Then he gives Nuclear Throne a 1 in luck and a skill rating of 10, saying "It's one of the most skill based games ... you can still improve after hundreds of hours". But wait many of *my* playthroughs are pretty different. Didn't luck mean variation? Why does it get a 1 then? Does the fact that you can improve after hundreds of hours affect how skill based it is? But then why isn't Spire in there? Oh wait! He only means mechanical skill so obviously choosing the right weapons, mutations, chests, paths, etc. doesn't play a part when he talks about improving in Nuclear Throne. And then again, if skill means mechanical skill then why give a turn based game a 3? It should be a 1 unless clicking is sort of hard for him. When he talks about StS he sounds like someone who isn't used to it enough. He hasn't reached intentionality. No, you don't take more cards once you get Ascender's Bane, and there isn't "a degree of complexity" when it comes to deck building, there's like 3000 degrees. No, no cards win you the run, especially not corruption (you can't put in in play in Act 1 and Gremlin Nob just kills you if you do). And saying that the one aspect that can lose you the run no matter what is the boss you fight (even when the game tells you the boss at the beginning of the act) is just silly. There's decisions ready to be made, but he isn't even aware that they exist yet. Imagine a RU-vidr stating that Street Fighter has an aspect that can cause you to lose no matter what, and that it the shoryuken. "They can just pick up a character with a dp, spam it on wake up and there's nothing you can do". In the end it's just a scrub quote. TL;DR: He's constantly inconsistent with his own definitions, and it's frustrating to see him talk about Spire because he's still at Dunning-Kruger's peak of Mount Stupid.
So you are rating them based on difficulty and variety not actually skill and luck Because skill means if it requires you to learn the game and it's mechanics to beat it While luck means that you need to have certain strong items to be able to beat the game It would have been completely different if it was like that
Its a bit contradictory to say that players can be good enough to get 100 wins in a row in binding of isaac and then almost immediatly after that say runs are determined by items so its based on luck. If items determine outcome, getting 100 wins in a row would be unrealistic.
As a huge slay the spire fan who has done countless A20 heart kills, your rating really breaks my heart. Slay the spire’s skill comes from its intensively complex decision-making, not pure mechanics. Players like Jorbs have gone from a 30-40% A20 winrate at 3000 hours to a 70% winrate at 6000. Most players have a less than 10% winrate at A10. Furthermore, at higher ascensions you see two of the three act three bosses every run, and on top of that the act 3 bosses are probably among the least threatening fights in the game. Furthermore, much of its RNG changes based on observable factors.
@@vinncentuntiedt5851 the concept of "perfect play" in a game as ridiculously complex as slay the spire is nonexistent. Nobody can even claim to be close to perfect play. However, there are people who have near-100% winrates on watcher. There's maybe a couple seeds in existence where there is absolutely no way to win (lagavulin silent). While I do admit STS has a greater margin of variance from run to run, that doesn't in any way make it more "luck-based" than other games, nor diminish the skill required to pilot your character through the spire.
@@vinncentuntiedt5851 just one unbeatable seed has been found in the history of slay the spire as far as I last researched, all other don't know how many millions and millions of seeds are solvable.
@@h445 For reference my winrate is only 25% or so after hundreds of hours, which only highlights the skill disparity between me and top level players (who some have reached 95%+ winrates on certain characters in 50+ game sample sizes). Never claimed I am skilled; just that there is a massive skill aspect to Slay the Spire.
I would honestly flip the luck and skill ratings for Isaac with the Repentence update. There are a lot more skill-based plays you can do to fish for better items. Items were rebalanced so that even Isaac's Heart can be useful, but outright gamebreaks are a lot rarer. And enemy shot speed is generally higher so that you can't facetank everything with soul heart generation.
I find the ratings confusing. You say ETG is one of the few game where luck matters as much as skill but then give it a 4 and 9. and I think you miss the point of rouglikes that is the more randomness the more skill it takes to manage that randomness. Maybe getting or not getting a certain item or boss fight means the end of a run for you but that just means the game requires more skill to adjust and all that. if you can get the same broken comp you like everygame then that requires very little rougelike skill. mechanically deadcells or Eden may be harder than Slay the Spire but it requires a completely different skill that's just as, if not more difficult at times but that's a whole other discussion as well.
Isaac is literally 100% sightreading skill. The game is very hard to learn, so when it comes to a new player's perspective when not playing as Azazel the game is indeed mostly luck based.
it's just because the new players are playing repentance which is harder than the other versions of the game someone playing rebirth will find it easier to win a run but in repentance you have new enemies and bosses with a hard to learn pattern
I feel like I disagree with the luck ratings of both Slay the Spire and Risk of Rain. Both of them do have tiered items, but their drop rates are balanced so you basically never get one right off the bat (except for the Neow trade, but that's balanced in a different way). In fact, since there's three different tiers of chests, each with their own cost and own chances of giving a rare item, Risk of Rain gives you a lot of control over what you want to purchase. However, Slay the Spire's three-card drafts are probably the most control any game gives you over your run, and allow you to get the deck archetype you want more often than not.
For people viewing this video to find interesting roguelikes to play Nova Drift leans heavily into synergies, to the point I have heard it referred to as "OP build simulator". Randomness isn't particularly punishing unless you are fishing for a specific rare mod. Low to high skill required depending on a build, as you can just let minions fight for you and focus on surviving... Or you can make a build with huge thermal lance, firing which forces your big shield down to just 10% almost all the time. I cannot emphasize enough how varied the builds are, and you have very high degree of control over how your build goes. No multiplayer Colt Canyon. Luck is definitely involved, but I would say it is one of the harder and more skill (of not dying) focused games. Doesn't feel like snowballing into a busted build but rather just getting by with limited resources. Has shared screen couch co-op Wizard of Legend: higher skill floor, high need for luck to get a specific build going. And high variety of flashy spells, which are tied entirely to cooldowns rather than "mana". Has couch co-op
You can't just split roguelike's difficulty into skill and luck and completely ignore the knowledge aspect. This whole genre is about discovering EVERYTHING. Items, enemies, mechanics - you need to learn about all this stuff yourself or with wiki's help. Maybe it is more of a hardcore look at the genre, but Isaac, Nuclear throne and Enter the Gungeon are exactly like this. Especially Isaac - you can't do much in this game if you don't know how to use the luck that the game gives you. And you also can greatly enhance your luck by performing specific actions. Of course, if you have been playing it since 2012 the game isn't challenging at all (for classic characters) because you can abuse it, you can effectively manage all tools available to you to benefit from it. When a new player tries to play Isaac for the first time, he feels like it is Dark Souls. Except in Dark Souls he at least has some understanding about what is going on.
I also want to add that Nuclear throne is very luck-based. Most of the time when you start a run you have an idea of the build you want to get, and it isn't always possible. For example, Steroids with two bullet ammo type weapons - for this to work you need to at least have throne butt and recycle gland. Most of the time it isn't enough - you need one more mutation for ammo regeneration and eagle eye. And of course there are mutations that are crucial no matter what build you are playing: rhino skin, either rabbit paw or bloodlust, boiling veins. Getting all of it in a single run? Quite rare. Some builds require a specific weapon (I like to play melee Yung Venuz, but getting long arms, trigger fingers, lazer brain AND lightning hammer is so inconsistent that it is no longer enjoyable).
Spelunky is an essential to add to this list. Both Spelunky HD (what most people just know as Spelunky) and Spelunky 2 are great, I would recommend going straight to 2. I think it’s a purely better game and has so much more to discover. They require insane skill to beat, but they have many different endings with different difficulty levels so it’s still approachable. My favorite rogue-like by far.
Cringe take, Spelunky 2 endings are extremely underwhelming Hmmm do I want to nuke a giant fish lady only for her to not die and mock me? Or do I want to be a literal freaking star MEANWHILE IN SPELUNKY HD I get to kill the literal ruler of an ancient civilizations or the lord of hell, and then meet up with the GOAT Yang as the credits say I'm a hero You get my point.
@@adriansrsa90 this is so crazy, you can’t be serious? No one plays Spelunky (1 or 2) for the narrative, right? It’s such a heavy gameplay game, with a very trivial story. I really don’t care in the slightest what the bosses look like, just how great it feels to play and how fun and challenging the game is. Spelunky was a great starting point, but 2 is a masterpiece. So much depth and complex difficulty. Spelunky 2 is just so, so much better.
3:12 tbh Soy Milk should have been replaced with Almond Milk. Soy Milk’s main problem in the past was that shots had so much knockback that the dps was inconsistent, but in Repentance the knockback was reduced which makes Soy Milk more consistent and viable on any given run. Almond Milk is just Soy Milk but inherently inconsistent due to all of the worm trinket effects it cycles through.
@@nullius9807 kinda depends the situation (and your other items) what is the better option (the random worm effect make brimstone really hard to use just to give an example)
@@calebhherra2553 i always feel like almond milk is more powerful just because of the less damage down, also the run is way more fun with almond than soy
For Nuclear Throne, I personally find a large amount of run variability through the many viable options, as mentioned in the video, giving a solid amount of differentiation between two runs. Such as building into weapon types through mutation. Though luck, in the traditional sense, can be felt in spawn locations which can turn a level that is generally easy into a stress fest. Due to the lower amount of mutations/options relative to other games, like Isaac, I do get the low relative rating of variability. In terms of skill/difficulty, yea... I'd rate something similar.
And there's *Noita,* in which the Skill rating is 10, and the Luck rating is 10 too. This game is the true definition of CBT, actually intended to people with arsonist/masochistic tendencies. Never manage to finish a run, and my death streak is 278 🤡🤡🤡
Item rarity in the binding of isaac doesn't influence the chances of those items spawning. Making it arbitrary to mention. It only effects 2 characters, the lost with birthright and tainted lost.
@@rafa_5020 That's wrong, some items like Plan C and Mega Blast do have a less likely chance to appear, but that is different from the item quality system
As a gungeon and nuclear throne fanatic, luck 4 and skill 9 on gungeon and the luck 1 and skill 10 on throne really tickled my “i’m good at this game” bone
I know it was said already and you mentioned not having many hours in it but the luck in ror2 isnt that bad since as long as you know what your doing you can guarantee that you get legendary items through both the bazaar (something you are guaranteed to get and can turn lower rarity items into higher rarity ones and has lunar items for sale) and linked to that is the void fields that also give u more items along with the 3rd stage of each loop giving you a guaranteed legendary item if you know what your doing you can go far not to mention the slightly more luck oriented rng manipulations with recyclers and printers allowing you to exchange your items. Your method of skill determining is seemingly set on just mechanical skill when knowing when to buy chests knowing when your ready to take on bonus challenges for more items (shrine of the mountain makes u fight 2x the bosses for 2x the reward) when to just skip grabbing an item since it does have ones that hurt you if you have the void dlc and even when to go for the final boss since there have been times i was far from ready on my first loop this mixed with some characters like huntress with her multi dash forcing you to play safer since you have to time your dash way more to avoid fall damage for the bonus of 3 times the dashing bandit with his reliance on positioning railgunner requiring you to be super precise commando requiring you to be boring (besides bleed hes good due to high proc coef) there is tons of skill involved
9:39 that's not really true. Red items while very powerful are not gonna carry your runs. Items like Happiest Mask, Interstellar Desk Plant or N'kuhana's Opinion are pretty bad and a lot of white and green items are bettet than them. Lunar items especially are actually pretty bad. The only real game changers are Gesture of the Drownt, and Tonic, however for the second one you need a lot of Gestures and few Fuel Cells (green items).Shaped Glass is an item that is really OP because of the damage you deal, but at the same time it halfs your health and in later stages essentially makes you die in one hit. Every other Lunar has either too harsh negatives, are very situational or are straight up bad. Risk of Rain 2 definitely has luck involved in the game, but I wouldn't say Red and Lunar items are the biggest examples of it. I'd give it 5 for Luck and 8 on Skill.
Yeah the people on his discord must not play much because ukulele, missles and tougher times all help your run out more than the majority of reds and lunars
" N'kuhana's Opinion are pretty bad " engineer called, he said you are wrong and gei *drink bungus juice Ok ok, engineer is the weirdo that have multiple item considered trash tier be god tier on him like ...the bungus ! *drink more bungus juice "but at the same time it halfs your health and in later stages essentially makes you die in one hit" Not completly true, some player purposely stack glasses, not just for the insane damages, but to abuse the Oneshot protection : you can't lost more than 90% of your life in 1 hit, so if your life is super low , anythign will remove over 90% of your life, and you'll heal everythign almost instantly....and yes if you had 1hp you can't die .... but it's not completly broken, because (unless having only 1 hp) because you can still loose the 10% left at the very next moment ...or die from double attacks (whips for exemple deal damage 2 time in a single shot )
@@ballom29 you probably haven’t played the game in a year or more. they fixed one shot protection so shaped glass can get you killed in one shot a while ago.
I love how he says he doesn't have much experience with RoR2, then immediately proves it by saying that lunar items guarantee progression. True, SOME of them do, but I've also had runs instantly ended because I pick up the wrong lunar item, and others just have too passive an effect to really make a significant difference, like the one that shrinks the teleporter area. Source: I have 76 hours in the game as of writing this. He is absolutely right about item rarity being kinda off. I find that almost all the most useless items have green rarity, while almost every white item is still useful by the end game.
ATG missile, Will o the wisps, both bands and Ukulele are like the bread and butter of the game and are all green rarity. Green rarity has helluva important items.
Yeah I dropped the game after console taking ages to fix ( and for those who don’t know, the console patch did almost nothing) and now I’m just waiting for the dlc Edit: to clarify, I have 400 hours, I didn’t just drop it upon dying
Two of my favorite roguelikes are Curse of the Dead Gods, and Wizard of Legend. Wizard of legend is super fast paced, mini bullet hell and has an absolutely massive variety of abilities, that even change depending what slot you equip them in! It also has a very high skill ceiling, for example, there is no parrying in the game, however you can pick up a certain item which then allows you to parry. That is a whole mechanic hidden behind a specific item. Another fun addition is that you can play it with couch co-op and a friend! Couch co-op is a feature that will instantly make me a love a game because it is something from my childhood that I feel too few games have nowadays. Curse of the Dead Gods has a completely different vibe. I love the art style, and there is the constant sense of foreboding. In other games, the more you play, the more powerful you get, and while this is semi true for CotDG there is a curse system which applies debuffs to you the further into the run you are (there are ways to mitigate this). There is a rising sense of fear and pressure the further into the run you get. In terms of actual gameplay I would say it is easier than WoL, but still just as much fun! I would highly recommend both of these games.
I haven't finished the video but I have to make a correction on your "item rarity" comment on Binding of Isaac. Item qualities don't influence how often the items drop. The chance of getting an item regardless of its quality is 1 divided by the number of items in the pool. The only times quality DOES affect rarity are when crafting items using Bag of Crafting (because higher value materials give better items), the item Sacred Orb which rerolls low quality items and Tainted Lost, which is only like once every 50 runs on the average Isaac game time. So all in all, yeah, it's mostly completely random what you'll get. The only thing you can somewhat choose is the item pools you want to invest in or if you have any form of reroll (which Isaac has a LOT of)
The only one I disagree is Slay the Spire's skill rating. Skill don't have to be mechanical skill. The knowledge how to pick a good card is also a skill. There's a dude that have long streaks of A20 win. It shows that it takes a lot of skills to beat the game consistently.
Yeah I don't understand what he was trying to say. Making correct decisions about cards, using them efficiently...that's not skill? It's luck? So skill only exists in an action game? I would go as far as to say the whole video is poorly thought out and comes to lazy oversimplified conclusions.
Like I’ve said to a couple other people. StS masks it’s skill requirements with RNG so much that unless you’re told what’s good and what’s not in certain situations you’ll spend hundreds of hours smashing your head off a brick wall trying to beat the heart without good luck.
"dead cells is considered to be one of the most difficult games of this genre" me who beat the game on my second game because of an item with 700+ dps on the first floor
The video fails to recognize that it takes completely different types of skill to be good at a fast paced bullet hell roguelike vs a slow card based one. Your focus on "skill" in this video is on sensory-motor skills which is not the focus of StS.
i think there are many ways to play sts, he seems to like more the "i try to build something cool" approach, and that's good, but i prefer the approach of "i try to win as many games as possible adapting to the map", when this is your mentality, the game requires huge skills
I think the rouglikes should be in such a way, that you can win thanks to your luck, but you should always be able to win with good enough skill. Like, yes, you can get 3 op items that melt everything, but you should still be able to win, even if you only get the worst items. You know what I mean?
@@MyNameIsSalo and even then, as long as you’re not cranking the difficulty up to the absurdly unfair Ascension 20 you can win every time if you know what you’re doing
If you want a first-person roguelike to round out the dimensions of gameplay, might I recommend Gunfire Reborn? It just left early access in November of this year and was my personal game of the year. The game has the same general idea that went into scoring Enter the Gungeon, that all weapons and items are useful but you can make do with whatever you get in order to achieve victory, and much like EtG, there are a variety of wacky weapons at your disposal. From a skeletal dragon rocket launcher that fires mini black holes that suck in foes before exploding and a many-eyed shotgun that gets reloaded by feeding it fish.
I play a lot of gungeon, in fact it’s my most played game. I would agree that no one gun gives a free win, but Gunther is probably as close as you can get to a free win. Infinite ammo that pierces and bounces off walls and also auto-aims is a little too strong. You still have to dodge and stuff, yeah, but after 3 or 4 rooms Gunther really starts taking off.
Finished gun is also pretty much a guaranteed win. High RoF, good damage and a final shot that pierces and reflects bullets. Oh and did I mention it drops from both black and brown chests?
also there are some things you do want to pass on as people have found out recently with the item drop mechanics depending on what you're going with, that and dropping certain items can make other items have a more normal chance to drop!
@@shadowdahuman id say Gunther is a bit more OP than Finished Gun since u can get Gunther way earlier than FG, Gunther has more DPS and Gunther doesnt require u to complete the ammonomicon to unlock it. No hate to Finished Gun tho, while it takes 2x or probably 4x the effort and time to unlock it compared to Gunther, once u do unlock FG, its way WAY easier to get it consistenly in game than Gunther (atleast in my experience) because ive gotten FG even more frequently in my normal runs (non rainbow runs) compared to Gunther. Hell i never even got a hold of Gunther again in my non rainbow runs after 50+ hrs of gameplay...
Risk of Rain 1 is a game where the luck completely overruns the skill, example? The artifact of command. When it's on you are just a god. Compare it to gungeon's rainbow runs which, while different in many ways, demonstrate how the power of selection does assist you that much if you don't know how to move.
Great video, as always! However, I disagree with your take on Slay the Spire. Your video presents it as a game strongly dependent on luck, and therefore less so on skill. I agree with the first part, but not the second. Winning a game of StS is one thing, but doing it consistently (especially on A20) is another. In order to do that, you have to constantly evaluate your decisions based on the immediate and long-lasting effects, and pick what to prefer. For example: you're offered Perfected Strike and Corruption on Floor 3. The choice is obvious, right? Corruption can win a game, while Perfected Strike is a bad card that gets worse along the way. However, if you pick Corruption, it won't do you anything this act: it costs 3 Energy, so it's hard to get off, and it thrives on synergies which you're not likely to have at this point. If you pick it that early, it's bound to be basically a curse for Act 1. Perfected Strike on the other hand deals 18 damage, so is immediately useful, and helps you get relics from Elites. So while Corruption is the better card (by far), picking it here would lose you the game, as you'd die to the Act 1 Elites, and Perfected Strike gets you Relics, making you stronger. The game is full of things like this: which path you take, which cards you take, what Boss Relic or starting bonus you choose; and it all ripples down through the entire run. Adding in an element of luck that you constantly have to adapt to actually raises the skill needed quite a bit. Whenever I die in this game, I rarely feel like it wasn't my fault, that it wouldn't have been preventable with better planning. But that's really hard to do. Even at 300+ hours, I still feel like just scratching the surface. Therefore, I'd give this game a luck rating of 7 and a skill rating of 8.
Ditto. Seeing other slay the spire RU-vidrs like jorbs and baalorlord really puts this video’s statement that corruption is a guaranteed win card as questionable.
Whenever I die on StS i honestly don't know what exactly i could've done differently, it's hard to know. Even if you play the fight as best as you can with whatever cards you have you can lose quite easily, so it's understandable why one would think it's more luck based I don't really know yet how to learn from my losses in StS
@@girish9242 That is understandable, but if you pay attention, there's always something. More often than not, it's not fights, but things like " if I don't take this event 5 floors ago, I'll have 5 more HP now, granting me an extra turn enabling me to kill this elite". It's hard to get into that mindset where you're always mindful of every risk and reward and their relevancy, but it's possible, you just need hundreds of hours in the game lol. Of course, you can just kick back and enjoy the game too, that's why I think it's so well designed.
Fantastic video, this is such a neat topic to touch on! Wish I could say more but I haven't tried every game on this list, I agree with your ratings on EtG, RoR, NT, and Dead Cells. I don't see the Hades one though, I would honestly put both of its ratings on the lower side, at least without the pact of punishment. Hades is somewhat difficult from the get-go but it's relatively easy to learn and gets very repetitive rather quickly. If I had to recommend a roguelike though, I would highly urge you to check out Monolith (+ it's Relics of the Past DLC). It is probably my favorite roguelike of all time, it's basically shmup Enter the Gungeon. I would probably rank it similarly to Nuclear Throne; It's a relatively simple game at the surface with some pretty unique mechanics that test the player's decision-making skills. It also has some really well-designed enemy rooms and amazing boss fights. And while there is a factor of luck to it, the player can definitely get through the entire game using only the starting weapon (in fact, sometimes it's just outright better than some of the pick-ups you come across). High-level loops on the other hand... that's a different story lmao
Nuclear Throne is the best imo. Glad to see you're a fish main as well, I have over 2,000 hours of fish throning now and I'm not even close to done yet lol.
Get Gunfire Reborn on this list! I'd love to see where you'd rank it between skill and luck. Recent balance changes have left it way harder than just 3 months ago so I feel it's moved more towards skill. However the right Goshawk and you're laughing
Shisheyu is a streamer who has a streak in the binding of isaac. He did 100 runs of The lost without dying. He's currently trying to obtain the dead god succes without dying nor reset any run.
I only got to the StS bit and when it boiled down to "I've dabbled a little, not really touched ascensions but basically this is mostly a luck based game because I failed to prepare for one of the handful of bosses in the game that hard counters my inflexible deck" I noped out.
I cant disagree more on slay the spire. For luck you can choose your path and what cards to add (if any). Some of the other games are more "take it or leave it", while here you actually decide, which reduces de luck factor by a lot, runs can look pretty much the same or you can win a lot of games in a row with the similar sinergies. About skill: its not mechanical skill, but understanding how to build your deck and how to use it properly, its not that easy really, specially on higher ascension levels. All that being said, great video! Non-suscriber here adding to the algorithm
