You would think that and it would seem obvious, but it probably wouldn't. There is an interesting discussion to this regard in the comments to the video BR10jYyJ4yE . The guy used a watt meter to find that there was no difference between open and locked at all when looking at speed. However, his heart rate was raised slightly in open mode. The takeaway seems to be that the watt meter only measures how much energy you need on the pedals for a certain energy, but that isn't affected by energy losses through the suspension, as you lose the energy in the suspension before it reaches the pedals. So you have to invest more energy into putting the same wattage at your pedals, but you can't measure that with a watt meter.
@@froreyfire Very interesting, thank you for the insight, it makes sense. Gonna buy a XC soon and it comes with lock and I will make sure to maximize its usage.
One of the main reasons I bought Scott Spark was the TwinLoc system for locking both front and rear suspension at the same time from the handlebar. I always use it when ascending. On tarmac I put it into lockout. On gravel or roots I use traction control (partial lockout). Whenever I descend, I unlock the suspension, no matter what the surface is.
I love the linked remote lockouts on my MTB controlled by a single trigger on my full sus. I probably use it 50 times on every ride as I move between road, byways, bridleways, cycle trails and single-track and so can select approx. the right setting for each. I particularly like that I can dump the full lock out of both front and rear in one second by just flicking the trigger in an emergency if the route suddenly turns rowdy. I am so pleased with it that I am looking to retrospectively add it to my other mountain bike.
It really depends on the specific bike. Some bikes have so much peddle bob that locking out is helpful. Some bikes are designed to be open all the time.
I think it comes down to the type of bike you’re riding and if you choose to sit and spin up a climb or if you get out of the saddle and punch it. Without lockout and on an out of saddle punchy climb, the bobbing suspension definitely can take some of your energy you’re exerting, whereas locked out you can put all the power down. If it’s a really gnarly climb with roots, rocks, etc, it may be best to leave suspension fully open and just sit and spin, for traction. Lockouts do serve a purpose but not for every bike or trail.
I bought a new XC bike with front fork remote lockout and it is fantastic. I can feel the difference when climbing, especially while standing up on the pedals, as I don't get tired so quickly from the constant suspension movement. And I can lean on handlebars without gripping them as tight. Works for me.
Scott spark RC - use all 3 settings of my lockout all the time. Fully locked out for road sections between trails. Trail settings give 80mm travel and used for all trails and climbs - gives a lot of traction on tech climbs but firm enough to sprint through bumpy sections. Fully open 100mm mode is super plush and great for downhills but very wasteful for hard pedalling. They also change how the bike handles as it gets noticebly slacker with more open settings.
I am not a racer so I am not after that last watt, but the lockout allows my seat-crank length to stay constant on climbs. I can tell right away when I forget my lockout. I have a 2 year old Scott Genius set pretty soft. I have removed the front lockout but the rear lockout is really nice to keep my seat position exactly where I want it on the climbs.
I don't think a power meter will allow you to measure the suspension losses. I think the energy used to compress the suspension is lost before it would be measured at the crank.
I was hoping you would have done a rooty climb. They are my favourite and I truly believe that my 29er FS gives better traction all the time without lockout. I used to think I NEEDED lockout (I'm not racing but love a good South Downs 20miler) but with my latest purchase with some sweet 'short travel' I really don't think I need it. It's like turning off all the things you paid for 😊.
I think they’re saying being able to lockout on firm terrain (or like pavement) is a nice pedal-saver with the extra weight. Not wasting as much pedal energy.
I ride an XC bike. And I do engage the lockout mechanism on the fork at the climbs, except for the more technical ones. It really feels more efficient. Anywhere else I free the suspension. As you said, it brings the benefit of more traction control.
Depends on the compression rate but the constant transfer of energy between your arms compressions and the front suspension that is wasted instead of going for your legs while climbing that will certain translate into less efficiency, less balance and less stamina for the climbing, and as bigger the climbing angle the worst it goes, not even mention straight up pedaling.. So I can really tell the diference when locked and I would advice if you are planing any kind "mountain biking".
If you tested a full sus XC bike instead of a hard tail I suspect things would change even more. Personally I never lock the front, it doesn’t affect me that much. But rear suspension is going to be locked when climbing.
also i would say I can my effect heartrate a bit. It is most noticable at smooth surfaće and low grade climb. I would say I can keep plus 10 rotations/cadence more at same gear same heartrate, which usually mean I keep more speed at same energy, but I dont think it made maximum speed, but it makes energy difference. Especially when you do kinda road bike kind of biking
On the tarmac, the fork doesn't engage as much as on trails off-road. So, off-road it would be more seconds saved with lockout on. Also, on full suspension XC bike the lockout would be more significant both on the sprint and on the course.
Pretty vague test. Really need a power crank, which would rule out the fatigue variability. Also, really, it should be with rear suspension too for a full picture.
Power crank measures after the suspension gets squished and doesn't include the work required to squish that suspension (i.e. to get 250w worth of force at the pedal, you first have to overcome whatever bob the suspension has). The methodology in this test is actually pretty good. It could be made more consistent (more runs, multiple days to reduce fatigue, multiple participants to get better statistical power), but the only other way I can think of making it significantly better would be gas exchange analysis (to test metabolic work done...) while testing different suspensions.
With all the rebound and compression tuneability available on my 2021 Fox 36 Factory fork and 2022 Fox Float X shock, I never have to worry about locking out the suspension on my 2020 Specialized Levo SL.
I appreciate your videos and you've been around. I'm thinking that a taller, heavier rider that has more leg geometry and power vs that "bob" would show different results. Standing up, in the flats and uphill as well...Also, different suspension types, VPP and coil vs single arm and air, etc. would yield something. Designers have learned from the years and components are tweaked for variants , right?
I keep my suspension of my Niner RKT9RDO almost always in the middle position on the fork and shock for pedaling and open to go down hill. The fully locked is less comfortable and gives less grip. Also as many already have mentioned, it depends a lot on the suspension design too.
What do the pros do? I imagine they have to most to lose with the wrong choice. I also presume that this only applies to relatively smooth ascents or flats and that the rear shock keeps your drive wheel in better contact with the ground on rocky/rooty terrain.
I have a DH bike with a Rockshox RC3 Debonair. It doesn't lock out 100% but I really like that, as it takes the thump out of any rocks etc on the climb.
I have a Fox Float X which has lever with an open (regular) position, and a second position which is not closed but offers more dampening. I like to "close" it on technical climbs and slow, rocky downhill to lessen the possibility of pedal or chainring strikes. What is your opinion on switching back and forth depending on trail type?
as a cyclist who uses mountain bike for everyday use (for errands, leisure or commute) I prefer suspension. and since i have a broken lockout, i don't really have a choice
I used to have Scott's twin-lock system but recently start noticing that I do not use it anymore since I found my perfect suspension setup. I want my suspension to work and can't really feel any noticeable pedal penalty. So I removing the twin-lock to have less cables and levers. 😌
I use lock-out 90% of the time, any sag can be a drain when going far....& you need all your energy when doing so, it still functions when off rd & pushing hard, just not as flexible shall we say, a lot of the pro racers will have set their suspension so hard/high that it will feel like lock out is on
Depends on the fork and shock - on newer fox 32s the lockout is completely rigid and riding like that for a big off road day is more exhausting than having it on the mid setting which will soak up small bumps and keep the energy you are putting through the pedals getting transferred to the ground - as long as you aren't mashing the pedals or standing up to sprint anyway.
If you are rounding to full seconds, the sprint test may be too short to show the differences. Mathematically, in your first test, with the enduro, you saved about 3% time (8 out of 260 seconds), in your second test with the hard tail, only about 1% (2 of 212 seconds). Assuming you also saved 1% in the sprint, this would amount to about 0.2 seconds, at which point your methodology with a stopwatch and rounding to whole seconds would be inadequate to capture the difference. Even if there was a 3% difference like in the first test, you would still need more precise measurements to show it.
Well I have a Scott Ransom with twinlock .I have rockshock nude for my rear not stock on Scott bike they us xfusion or fox for oem .With the RockShox nude lock out not needed plus upgraded my damper in my yari to a charger2.1 rc2 what a game changer .anyway all depends on the bike .170mm of travel love it
When you have to ride on street, flat surface… lockout is a energy safer which will make a difference in the long run. Xc races are not 3 minutes long 😅
I guess the reason you only saw a difference on the climbs is because gravity would have taken away any forward momentum along with watts wasted in the suspension.
But if time is ultimately what watt output leads to… Time is what really matters to all riders no matter their power output. From a casual rider who is on a time limit for their ride, or just wants to get more runs in, to the professional who wants to shave every fractional second possible - time is what matters.
Please help GMBN!! I can't join gcn+, to watch the world cup. I keep getting an error. Never would happen with Red Bull tv. I am devastated, I'm going to miss live downhill, thanks to Bullshit tech. 🤬🤬
bad video, bad choice of bikes , saying nothing to us.... xc race bikes like scott spark or giant needs lockout, but canyon lux or other brands with horizontal suspension, dont need it so much.. that bikes are stiff , not comfortable at all, but effective climbers also in open mode .. on another hand, that bikes are loosing on way down. for pross that bikes are grat, for hobbies it is better to have something more comfortable.. lockout is needed for hard pushing uphils, which is not so technical but steap, also for sprinting.
I have a lockout on my rear shock, never used it. Yeah i can see the advantages in a race setting. Lockout on forks which i also have is completely unnecessary. Its like USD forks, no good in the real world but used as a feature to sell bikes. And if this channel thinks i need a pop up to remind me to be respectful before commenting im going to unsubscribe. I cant stand entitled idiots lumping all commenters in the same category because of the few people doing the wrong thing.
Why do I always look like an idiot mushroom when wearing a helmet but everyone else looks cool? 😂 #nohelmetbiking Regardless, not pulling your chin strap tight really negates wearing a helmet in the first place, doesn't it
I am the same. Every bike helmet I have ever owned looks to be perched high on top of my head rather than actually being worn. I get so much mickey taking about it from my riding buddies. Its something that I don't understand as I often wear a builders hard had as part of my job and that fits well and looks just fine, but a bike helmet, even after trying a dozen of them, forget it. ☹
I’ve been watching GMBN race? Whatever it’s called, watching XC races, and everyone is riding hardtail… I guess that’s in order to save weight in a race situation?
Suspension gives traction - especially on rear wheel - so if you're going up rocky or technical stuff it's better to have it open or in mid setting rather than having your rear wheel slipping
@rider65 depends on the bike and suspension - older shocks and forks didn't lock out, they would just get firmer with the pro pedal switch. Modern xc full sus bikes lock out completely rigid though and the lock out is only for the tarmac sprints in races.
Yeah, no. Riders don't NEED suspension. Suspension allows for improved traction. (Significantly reducing hysteresis) Increased traction allows for control at higher speeds & more effective braking. ALL thanks to dirt bike & motocross innovations.
forks only waste energy if you put your weight in the handle bar and keep moving your head up and down as you climb, if you lock your core muscles and keep the handle bar light all the energy will go to pedals. so you don't really need a lock in the front, can't say anything about rear shock cause i never ride a bike that had it.
Ha! My old Santa Cruz Blur didn't have lockout and bobbed horribly! My new Oiz has a lockout but I honestly can't see or feel any pedal induced bobbing so I pretty much ignore it except when standing.