I bought a guitar once, a Carvin DC400 - and it had a Kahler tremolo system on it. Previously to that, I had an Ibanez Jem777, with the Floyd Rose Edge. Even though I adored that Vai guitar including the Floyd, I was an instant convert to the Kahler. It was the smoothest tremolo I had ever experienced, and adjusting it was SO much easier than the Floyd. Whether changing strings, gauge of strings, tremolo angle adjustment, it didnt matter - To me, the Kahler out-performed the Floyd in every way. I still believe it is superior...
I purchased a Kahler in the 80's because I thought it was more refined, modern, and the body blank came routed for it. I used a FR type locking nut. Now I see why FR is so popular, drop in, licensing, cost, artists. I love my Kahler.
I own both a Kahler and a Floyd Rose, I love my Kahler because it's more user friendly and so much easier to restring and set up in my opinion... However I had to make the switch to Floyd Rose out of necessity due to Kahlers being hard to come by.... I myself prefer a Kahler over a Floyd but I made the switch out of necessity.
My impression was always that people didn’t like the feel of the cam mechanism because it didn’t feel like a fender strat vibrato, and they didn’t trust the top mount springs because they associate that with bigbsy tuning problems.
I had a 1991 Peavey Custom Tracer with a Kahler Spyder. The actual Trem is amazing. The locking nut was the weak link. I installed the trem on a custom job I still have after 30 years.
I lived through the tremolo wars. Ages 10-20 in the 80’s. Here is my list of reasons that the Kahler lost the tremolo wars: - The Kahler was big and ugly. The first thing dealing w/ any product is sight. The Kahler was not visually appealing. - The Kahler bar was too thin and had the weird tongue shaped tip on it. - The Kahler felt loose and wiggly. It required little to no effort to move. - The Kahler was overly complicated. The features of individual string spacing, individual string radius etc. were useful, but fiddly and in most cases, unnecessary. - The add-on, behind the nut clamps were horribly misplaced, way too far beyond the nut on the earlier installs. Even when properly placed, the strings could still slip on the oem nut. - Tuning stability was good, but not great. In many cases a Kahler coupled w/ a Floyd locking clamp was superior. The Floyd Rose: - Visually appealing. The next generation/ continuation of the Fender fulcrum trem. - The Floyd had a nice, thick bar, simple and elegant. - The Floyd had a firm, positive feel. You had to use force and bit of muscle to move it. - A properly installed Floyd had proper string spacing, and the graduated saddles, and a shim (if necessary) gave the appropriate radius. - The Floyd locking clamp was just better. It took the place of the nut, instead of an add-on behind it. - The tuning stability is second to none. Once properly set up, it will literally never go out of tune. - Eddie Van Halen used and preferred the Floyd Rose. In closing: - The Floyd is a simple and brutal tool. The Kahler is a complex and finesse apparatus. It’s like comparing a hammer to a micrometer. I used to quip that the Kahler was a ‘girls trem’ and the Floyd was a ‘man’s trem’. Even though it’s a joke, that was the prevailing attitude. Still, to this day, a classic 80’s Jackson, Charvel, Hamer or BC Rich guitar equipped w/ a Kahler will sell for half of its Floyd equipped counterpart. - Jeffry Clark Tons of videos on the subject on my YT channel: youtube.com/@metalcop5150?si=poT_sC9m7fezx_LQ
EVH had a part,Floyd Rose just had more market exposure,and Floyd Rose had the better locking nut. Kahler was just as good quality wise,but market exposure is everything.
1. Floyd Rose licensed their bridge but Kahler didn't? 2. The licensed version of the FR made it cheaper for guitar manufacturers to add the FR in their guitars instead of the Kahler? 3. Kahler made a double locking fulcrum bridge that infringed on FR's patents and FR sued? 4. More artists endorsed and started using FR which gave it more advertising and acceptance. 5. People incorrectly tuned the Kahler bridge and blamed the bridges for 'not holding a stable tuning'. 6. The stringlock. The locking nut seems to offer more tuning stability. A lot of the early Kahler equipped guitars came with the stringlock. That's all I can think of.
Oh man, It's the VHS vs Betamax battle for supremacy all over again! But seriously, I feel the Floyd had a leg up because it was a fairly straightforward install into an existing Strat body, and the industry was already tooled up for that style of route.
Not really though, because VHS definitely has a bad tape path leading to early failure, and poor picture quality so you kinda don't care if it fails. Floyd versus Kahler is more like Ford versus Chrysler. Neither is subjectively or objectively bad.
@@CrowaX Correct. In either case the ultimate success of the product had nothing to do with which was better as both are objectively "good enough". Ultimately it's all about which was able to garner more consumer acceptance faster.
The locking top nut. I had 2 Kahler bridges during the 80's. They are fantastic and better than any Floyd I have ever used. But the string lock behind the guitars nut did not work as well as the Floyd locking nut. I still have my original Kahler from the 80's on a partscaster with a Warmoth neck with a Floyd locking nut on it. It is the best trem system I have ever used.
When I started playing Floyd’s were plentiful but Kahler’s were rather rare. They also had a negative stigma to them. It was things like Gibson’s with factory Kahler’s were less desirable. The Kahler push lock systems after the nut were problematic. I started on bass in the late 90’s and guitar in early 2000’s. My only experience playing a Kahler back then was my guitar instructor’s factory Kahler LP. I liked it on that guitar. From then on I learned to form my own opinions on gear.
Interesting to watch this video after the podcast and Gary's comments. Licensing to other manufacturers was Floyd's main strength, and of course patenting the double locking system. Having a high-profile endorsee or two didn't hurt either.....I think as a consequence of the double locking patent Kahler were forced into sub-optimal design choices as Gary has so much integrity he wouldn't challenge the patent. Some of those choices, coupled with manufacturing down to a price point, in lieu of up to a standard were compounded by a couple of designs that are less intuitive than the FR, even whilst offering a plethora of options the Floyd doesn't possess. Net result, some techs didn't understand the intricacies of the setup and in some cases, parts were simply sub-standard. Designs like the Steeler still stand the test of time however, and the cam-based models are fantastic systems so realistically the main factor is, as I've mentioned elsewhere, cost. I can pick up a Schaller Lockmeister with the correct nut and bridge radius for my guitar, and a brass block, for around £250 shipped to my door and it's a drop-in replacement. Not to say I wouldn't use a Kahler given the option but economics are, everything else being equal, the deciding factor.
I think that non-locking nut Kahlers were the best overall. I think, in all seriousness, Floyd rose units looked so heavy duty and machinery big, players felt they'd be more reliable. And many a Floyd was so voila. I've heard of certain kahler models some say were bad however I always was pleased with the Kahlers I've had. But all mine were non locking nut. The Peavey Generation series of the late 80s/early 90s was the best Kahler I've owned. I have never had a Floyd Rose equipped guitar.
It must be partly because of tooling. A Floyd can be used in the routs that many companies were already making. In order to use Kahlers, companies would have had to change the routs they already used. Also, the Kahler would have been an easier mod for the same reason. Also, the power of persona. Many of the famous players were already using Floyds so they were everywhere on MTV.
I don’t think it has lost at all. Kahler’s cam system is superior than the fulcrum system because 1 of tuning stability. If u break a string on a Kahler the whole thing doesn’t go out of whack as opposed to a floyd. 2 less routing. More wood more sustain 3 arm abuse. Set it and forget it. Once you’re in tune u can abuse the arm without having to tune the thing back up because of the tension balancing act on the pole pieces. It just doesn’t happen. The only thing im not too thrilled about is the thin arm; but other than that people need to give it a try instead of giving credibility to the whole “oh, i learned on a floyd therefore I can’t play a Kahler” bs. Flutter?? Yes u can still do it but how many times are u doing that per show?
I’d heard that they just got buried in legal expenses-and not even from Floyd Rose, but other parties. I’m looking forward to the next video though. Personally I much prefer the Kahler’s fixed saddles so that you never unintentionally do a mini dive bomb, but I like the Floyd’s stiffer feel. Since KK Downing was my whammy bar inspiration, I showed neither of them any mercy, and they both stay in tune very well. Changing strings on a Floyd and snipping off the ball ends absolutely blows goats though. Now that I’m middle aged I just take the thing in and pay someone else to deal with that pain in the ass.
I was always told that the reason was that Floyd's patent covered the positioning of the lockable nut over/in front of the nut, giving the Floyd Rose more tuning stability. That was the common narrative where I grew up.
I believe they lost due to the Floyd rose license being the cheapo for OEM and Kahlers being an expensive option for oem. I remember my first play through on my flyer after I set it up(I found it easier than my Jackson licensed). The thing stayed in tune, and feel was so smooth... I could also make it flutter. I knew even though it was a lower end model kahler, that they were almost like a boutique bridge compared to a Floyd. Soon everyone I told about my kahler, knocked it. I only ran my flyer on my v or a tune o Matic. And only in the past year have I given Floyd a chance. Floyd special... And it's pretty good!! I love both now!
Kahler lost the tremolo wars because Floyd had Eddie and a number of big endorses and Floyd had more momentum. Yes, Kahler still had a lot of big and very devoted users, but everything was going in Floyd's direction. Also, there was a very big Floyd Rose culture out there, where players would communicate and help each other to fix common issues with Floyds. Any trem system, Kahler included, can have its issues. It doesn't matter that Kahler made more stable, versatile units. They were not as big a community of Kahler users and techs behind their trems as there were behind the Floyd. In fact, I met a number of techs in the 80s who said they wouldn't even work with a Kahler unless the object was to replace them with a Floyd. I thought that was simply childish. When someone can make the claim that routing out a massive chunk of wood to install a Floyd in a Jackson Soloist improves a guitar, but a minimally intrusive Kahler will somehow "ruin" a $2000 guitar, it's clear that they are living in a different universe. Floyds have such a deleterious effect on tone that there is a whole industry dedicated to mitigating this downside. If Floyds were fine out of the box, companies like FU-Tone would not exist.
I prefere Kahler. In produces better sound, it is more stable, offer more options to intonation, I like the tremolo bar. It is just great. I don't know about the difference in the marketing strategies both companies used and how the made the difference. But with Kahler, you really need a excellent luthiere to do the routing and installation.
Like everyone else says EVH. But for me it was Vai / Satriani / Ibanez. My 1990 540S came with the Ibanez version. And that was it. I have two FR guitars today. And have probably owned so many others equipped wit a Floyd. This is THE Kahler channel? I thought you were just a really big fan. Ha! Curious why Kahler was second place.
ive only read about kahlers never owned one but i know of a few issues it had,having to solder the strings knots where the ball ends are tied so they dont break.one of the guys in slayer always had to finish his solo with a dive or pull up on the kahler to get back in tune,and rollers in general just add another point of failure if they get stuck. the kahler is only a single locking trem since the string are only locked in place at the nut while on a floyd both ends are locked so if the knife edges are sharp there's no reason for it to go out of tune.
It's probably because there's no real licensed Kahler cam tremolo options and that a lot of guitars made with floating tremolos are designed like a strat with cavities in the front and back to fit non-cam trems
Since I remember, even here in Europe (I`ve started in the early 90s), Kahler has always been more expensive and at the same time much more complicated in assembly and then in operation. Kahler has never been worse in any way, he's just less accessible to ordinary rockers, so the less useful to me, FR strength in simplicity. I love Kahlers too for sure!!!
Obviously there was a big edge given to FR by popular artists using them. I liked both. The Kahler always felt a little more subtle but in the 80’s I tended to approach trems like an act of violence so FR was the weapon of choice. These days I’d probably be the opposite.
I’ve always been a Kahler as well as FR fan. They both do certain things better. The feel of a Kahler is the tops. The flutter of a OFR is better in my opinion. I’ve got to tell you tho… The Washburn Wonderbar is the perfect mix between the two. (I know I’m probably going to get backlash from that) But there’s no routing needed and it doesn’t use springs or a cam system. Brass rollers as well. I absolutely love all quality locking trems tho… i.e. OFR, 2300s, 2710s, edges, lo pros.
I bought guitars with Kahler because of the band slayer uses them. I noticed later those guitars wouldn’t stay in tune after tremolo bar uses. So finally started doing what other people suggested, which is solder the strings right above ball where the winding is. It prevented the strings from changing tension do to the slip knots. Problem solved. Now I love my kahler’s. Way more versatile than Floyd Rose. I think that this is why people prefer Floyd Rose over kahler. They don’t notice this trick so they go for what they believe is the more stable trem
Yes. Right before the ball at the end of the string that hooks to the kahler 2300 the string wraps around that ball. But when you use the whammy bar it tightens or loosens that wind so the pitch changes. So put solder on that part where the string twirls around itself. But not to much so that it still fits in the kahler. This will prevent slippage and your kahler will never go out of tune again. The lighter gauge strings are where it happens the most as far as slippage. Because what happens when you pull on a necktie or a slipknot is it gets tighter so a guitar string is the same thing and that’s what throws it out of tune. So the problem is not with the tremolo system, but the string itself. You can buy strings that are soldered already, but they’re expensive. Once you do this, you will realize that kahler is the supreme best tremolo system much better than Floyd Rose, and more versatile. Took me 10 years to figure this out. Have fun !
Kahler ran into the popularity problem due to the number of Floyd Rose licensing deals, and lots of rumors on the part of Kahler. There was also a horrid period wherein Kahler didn’t have their production down and missed orders for full units and parts just didn’t get fulfilled. I want to say that the behind the nut lock was part of the issue, too. The difference in what needs to be routed for after-market should be a Kahler win, but for some reason Floyd Roses dominated. For full disclosure, I am not a fan of Floyd Rose tremolos, and I much prefer Kahlers, especially for extended range and multiscale guitars and bass guitars.
Without question,EVH put Floyd Rose on top almost immediately because he used it….I was 17 in 82 when I started playing,by 86 or so,I wanted a better guitar,but teenage me would not even entertain the idea of a Kahler equipped guitar..Had to be FR!! Throughout the years I have played a Kahler,but I just never thought of it in the same way I did the FR..The FR also looked better than the Kahler..
I've always wondered about Kahler. Seems like the perfect trem system at face value: quick and easy saddle adjustments, locking point to turn it into a fixed bridge, etc. I do not have any experience with the Kahler system, only FR. When the next video comes up, someone PLEASE let me know. I'm genuinely curious about this.
To me it's because of EVH using it and also Floyd licensed to anyone. Now you have about 1000 "Floyds" and only a few are good. I had two guitars in the 80s - a Peavey T-60 I put EMGs into and a 2300 on and an Ibanez RG550 with the original Edge. It was rare that either went out of tune and we played all the whammy heavy songs. Sadly, I don't think Floyd cares too much about whether people know exactly what they're getting or what to expect.
The reason why I think they lost it's because a lot of artists who play a kahler also play a tune-o-matic bridges and there was a lot of dudes who played fenders with super strats so that's why the Floyd Rose was really popular. I associate kahler with Gibson and B.C. Rich because those are two companies that used tune-a-matic Bridges a lot. I always thought that a Floyd rose on a Gibson look off because I associate the Floyd Rose with the super strat because the they feel about the same when playing them and I tried to kahler her and I wasn't a fan because I felt like I was playing a tune-a-matic with the whammy bar. also what shocks me a lot of guys who play Gibson and who like to play tune-a-matic bridge do not know what kalher is because the huge popularity of Floyd Rose and I think that's not fair to kahler tremeloes.
I don’t care who dominates the market Kahler is my favorite tremolo The virtual Jeff is my 2nd favorite one but I can’t use it chordlessly Kahler and the Sophia should and could share some ideas to improve upon any shortcomings of the Floyd rose
@@mgcuniverse9037 actually that already happened. However for various reasons we can’t get into the collaboration between Kahler and Sophia is currently shelved.
I wasn’t playing guitar much in the 80s started in the early 90s so take that into consideration. But in my experience I would say availability as don’t recall seeing many guitars with Kahler installed, most were either licensed Floyd’s or hard tail guitars. To this day I’ve yet to play a cam style Kahler but that will change soon as I have a guitar with a Kahler cam trek on the way to my house. The Kahler 2500 series fulcrum isn’t my favorite but I’m anxiously awaiting the 2700 Killer to be installed as I hear that is a fantastic fulcrum style kahler. I’d guess that marketing might’ve played a role as well as the popularity of EVH might’ve contributed to the outcome of FR winning that battle.
I had a peavy Wolfgang with a kahler shit snapped off like a KitKat so I decided to get a Floyd special but then i realized maybe Floyd’s are too complicated for me you learn the easy and hard way sometimes
Great idea for a video! I started playing guitar in 2000, so what I heard about Kahler was many years after they stopped production. Kahlers was like a myth to us kids. Old luthiers be like "Kahler? Oh, I havn't heard that name in many years". Haha The main hypothesis was: Kahler tremolos laked stustain and had problems with staying in tune. Floyd Rose was simply better. Some told us it was a difficult to find replacement parts for Kahler, therefore maintance was a nightmare. I know some hate Floyd Roses because they are complex compared to a hardtail, I can only image how frustrated they would be with an Kahler! I also always had a feeling that Kahler lost the Tremolo Wars because of lack of endorsement. The biggest rock stars had Kramer, Charvel and Ibanez guitars, and all of them came with Floyd Roses or FR licenced tremolos (EVH, Mick Mars, Richie Sambora, Steve Vai). While Kahler mostly had smaller stars and underdog players. Today, after owning several Kahler tremolo, I know they are great! They hold tune if you got the special strings or soder the string ends. And the stustain is unbelievable. Oh boy! The sustain is like magic! Kahlers are great, but they have a different feel. They are very smooth! Playing EVH or Vai is very difficult with them, become Floyd Rose are so stiff.
I think it's a combination of 2 things, Floyd's getting in with more brands, and Eddie Van Halen being the poster child of the modern trem using a Floyd. While I certainly prefer the Kahler by a wide margin those two things from a perception standpoint are too much to overcome for a lot of people.
The funny thing to me was that EVH and a lot of others had the Floyd against the deck of the guitar and now they have a trem stop for them. Of course it'll stay in tune that way. The Edge stayed in tune no matter what I did to it. The Kahler I had was very close behind it.
Kahler bridge was larger, strings would pop out of roller saddles and the locking nut behind the normal nut was unsightly and unstable. Add in the Eddie Van Halen Floyd connection and that added to the loss. That said, the Steeler was VASTLY superior to Floyd Rose. I never understood why it was stopped. If there was a celebrity endorsement and proper marketing… Steeler would have crushed Floyd!
Washburn had the Wonderbar tremelo and I thought that was going to be a better alternative because it didn't require any routing and it stayed in tune. So just like the Kahler it was dismissed. probably more because of marketing and Who was using them. If Eddy had been using one it probably would have been popular.
@@Scott__C I think that there is/was a guitar player with the Steely Dan backing band that had one too. I shudder to think what it would be like to source parts though perhaps Auto CAD could be leveraged to spec them for the lathing of replacement parts.
Kahlers have a terrible rate and they are awful choices for a pro. Don't argue with me. I was there. Ruinous garbage that destroys decent instruments. Thousands of vintage guitars with "all original except for GIGANTIC Kahler plug.".
I gigged with a Kahler for years and had zero problems with it. It's just like a Floyd (or anything) in that you have to set it up properly. People do all kinds of things to guitars for what they need them for. The people who follow all the trends end up with stuff like that. Mike Landau played a Floyd on his strat on tons of records, but had that all patched up and now has a Fender trem on that guitar again.
@@KahlerUSATrems I actually gravitated towards the Floyd as a teen back in the '80's mainly due to Evh, Lynch, DeMartini, Campbell, Takasaki, Rough Cutt, Keel, etc.......basically all the players I was listening to. I went from a reissue '50's style strat (Tokai) with a original style 6 screw tremolo to a Kramer Baretta (original Floyd Rose). So immediatly I had tuning stability as well as much more range of pitch drop. I loved it. I remember not liking the 'feel' of the Kahler tremolo.......it was so sensitive as compared, requiring very little force to dip the bar, etc. I also remember not being comfortable with the feel of palm muting.....it was different. So, years later (37 yrs or so) I actually prefer the original 6 screw tremolo (though slightly modded and with either a Gotoh or Callaham plate) I think have the string 'living' past the saddle and the nut gives a bit more life and resonance to the sound. I still like a OFR tremolo......the feel is similar to a old school Fender ( though with much more action). I think the roller wheels affect direct contact somewhat and that top mounted is 'softer' sounding, so although a Kahler can be cool ( Jerry Cantrell and Steve Lynch 🤘) I like the feel and direct FIRM and HARDNESS of sound that a OFR has ( those descriptive words sound like a viagra promo 😅)
If you make yours tremolo in the metrical system, then you can have a big success. More than Floyd. Yours string lock not tune. Finally do it 2200 and 2300 double locking.
