Had to chime in on this. I worked the majority of my adult life in manufacturing, working for American companies, as a tradesman. Still do work for an American company, but I'm out of the manufacturing side now. No overseas country "stole" our jobs, factories, etc. Like it or not, they were given away, by us. Steve hit it on the head, with our constant search for lower prices, the manufacturers had very little choice but to search out and/or develop ways to keep costs down to satisfy this desire for lower cost goods. From automation to relocation, sometimes both, this is still happening today. It's funny how so many of us had no problem buying those products from other countries for all those years. Whether is was shoes(Italian anybody?), clothes(same), cars(German, British, Italian), tools, you name it, we bought it. A lot. I'm rider(motorcycles), boy, the Japanese put everyone on their head in the '60's and '70's. And lets not start on women's clothing, shoes, pocketbooks, etc. Sometimes the mystique of getting something from somewhere else may have been a factor, something unique that not everyone had. Sometimes it was price, quality, variety, whatever. And one of those product segments we bought was hi-fi. If you're old enough, you remember those days that all those Japanese brands started popping up to compete with our domestic produced stereo sets and components. Sansui, Technics, Pioneer, Kenwood, etc., etc. And we bought it, by the boat load. Now, it's China's turn. Just like the other "foreign" made stuff, some was of good quality, some inferior, all usually priced accordingly. I've got a curious mix of domestic and overseas components in my rig(s). I do try my best to get domestic, it they make something that fits my needs. You can buy American at a decent cost, but it's difficult, at best. And Steve was correct about the computers, phones, tv's. Domestic manufacture is almost nonexistent. There is some really good stuff coming out of China, a lot of it made for American companies. Klipsch comes to mind. Like lots of us, I bought a pair of those wonderful RP-600's, knowing they were made in China, without batting an eyelash. They are just too good to not get. My ears don't care where they are made. I don't have an answer to this problem. It's up to you, the consumer, to spend accordingly and maybe those jobs may come back. But it won't be easy.
Well said my friend. I am Asian and live in Asia. We always have choices, you can always buy as you choose but people shouldn't complain when they can't "Have their cake and eat it". Me? I'll just go where my pocket goes, the most value for money / most bang for my buck. Peace.
@Sly foxxx Yes, I agree they stole a lot of designs and reverse engineering tons of stuff. We can " steal" them back too, but the costs of doing business have to be lowered here. I run my small business and it is very hard with so many laws and regulations.
An example, I was selling a pair of B&W loudspeakers on the used market. I had a potential buyer ask where they were manufactured. I assumed B&W were manufactured in the U.K. Or Europe in some way, however, I didn’t want to inadvertently lie to the buyer, or assume anything. After a lot of research, (it wasn’t easy) I found that B&Ws manufacturing facilities are in...China. Folks are up-in-arms about buying electronics from companies that are not made in China... and I’d dare say, you’re in the wrong hobby. I worked in a consumer electronics store, and had a lot of people go as far as returning products such as Klipsch because they assumed they were made in the USA because the company is based in the states, but found they were built in...China. (I’m aware that there are a very very small amount of the Klipsch higher-end speakers that are made in the States, the parts, like the crossover parts are from Asia, BTW) point is, this sent me on a mission to find what products in a store of 1500 electronic items were not made in China. The answer was one, batteries. You’re seriously kidding yourself if you think any electronics in your home, especially hi-fi gear, no matter where the company is based from, isn’t manufactured in China. Even companies such as Rolls Bellari and Schiit audio built products in the U.S. from “parts imported from China”. This is the state of our global economy , and the U.S. simply doesn’t have the manufacturing facilities to make en Masse. This is maybe a sad fact, but, a fact nevertheless.
Interesting and you’re right on about items built in China. Apple for example design their products in California and are assembled and built in China however we’ve seen Apple is slowly or perhaps just for high end products such as their Mac Pro, designing and building in America.
Also just to add I think electronics back in the days, like in the 60s or 70s were built and made, assembled in just a particular country then I guess it was then more profitable for companies to built these in China.
I love my chi-fi equipment. I’ve tried various products made in the US, Europe, and China and have come to respect the quality that companies like Topping, SMSL, and Fiio can put out.
I'm an audiophile from China and currently studying in the US pursuing my college degree. Here's my opinion, with NO nationalism, NO political ideology. I understand that people from the US tend to not prefer Chinese audio products. My Dad's stereo system don't have a single component that's made in China. His speakers are the original Rogers 3/5As, pre-amp is Mark Levinson ML-7 and power amp is the Japanese Airtight ATM-1. I have a pair of AKG K812 and a pair of SONY MDR-Z1R with the SONY TA-ZH1ES DAC/AMP. As you can see we use things made in so many different countries, and I never use or promote any products because of any presupposition on the country the product is designed or made. If it's a good product, then I like it and use it; if it's not so well, then I don't use it. Simple as that, don't care if it's Chinese or German or the US. I certainly won't promote anything merely because it's made in my country, because I find it to be pretty pathological. In terms of audio products, I'm gonna be brutally honest -- they're not so good. However, he has a friend who runs a Hi-Fi company making some really good horn speakers and amps. So I would say generally Chinese audio products aren't so well in terms of quality, but there certainly are some good ones. And yes, Chinese products are also cheaper, that's the way it is. WHAT I DON'T AGREE WITH and certainly don't like is that some people in the US reject Chinese products because we Chinese steel their jobs in the US or something (I believe this is only a minority group of people). I understand these kind of speech exists because of the political conflicts. I'm not only saying this to people in the US, but also to people in China (there're plenty of idiotic Chinese people full of hate speech against the US and I DON'T LIKE THEM EITHER). Why can't we just look at things not in political perspectives? Isn't Hi-Fi audio all about our love to the musics, and how in the world can we enjoy music with those political hatred?
William Chen - Refreshingly straightforward analysis.Capitalism is not about the cheapest product winning. Capitalism about preferences. People can and do make buying decisions based on a number of factors: price, performance, reliability, technology, support, resale value, etc. If someone wants to include nation or manufacture, that is there prerogative. However, when consumers start making decisions on factors that do not relate to the product or the company’s behavior in the market they can and do distort capitalism. A great example is the American auto industry. For decades people Bought American even though most of those cars were not as well designed or built as many of their Japanese competitors (or in some instances European). So consumers rewarded GM, Chrysler and Ford for building inferior cars. So guess what, Big Three management produced - more inferior cars. The point is this - it is not about where the company is located or whether the name is familiar or not. It is about what the management of the company in question delivers to you in exchange for your hard-earned cash. There are many factors to consider beyond the product itself, but if we base our decisions on factors that the company cannot change, then the company cannot react to our purchasing “votes”. Just my two cents.
Let's have free and fair trade so everybody wins and there is a more or less level playing field? Like original trade agreements intended and agreed as such?
The reality is that many Chinese manufacturing plants are now the state-of-the-art benchmark for precision and quality controlled manufacturing. Another reason why tech and audio brands have their products manufactured there.
The people who are complaining about poor quality are not willing to pay for the good stuff. In my day job, I design electronic equipment that must perform to the highest reliability standards. Most of the parts I use come from overseas, mostly from China or Europe. A large fraction of the parts from Europe are now manufactured in the low labor cost countries like Hungary, not Germany, France or the U.K. The biggest source of quality problems I have to deal with are from the parts made in the U.S. or the assembly work done in the U.S. The worst customer service I have experienced was also from U.S. based companies.
@Joe Al Did they go to the lowest bidder? If they did, it proves my point. Where did they go to in Europe and what kind of result did they get? Did they go to Germany or Switzerland where quality is high? If that is where they went, did they have to increase their prices to compensate for the higher costs? Did they go to "The Mexicos of Europe" such as Hungary?
Two points come to mind: Even if the product is "made in the USA," to what extent does it use parts made in China? I believe you had John from Ohm Acoustics on a while back and he said something to the effect that all drives are made in China, and if someone tells you otherwise, they are lying. So, when we think about "affordable" audio products from Emotiva or Hsu (which to my knowledge are American companies), are we really buying fully American? Secondly, I feel like these battles of patriotic consumerism are a luxury for those who can afford the truly high-end stuff. The reality is that in the US we've had real wage stagnation since the 70s, so not everyone can really afford to shop for the majority of US/UK/EU gear. For many of us, if you only have between $500-$1K to spend on any given piece of equipment, you are pushed largely in the direction of China (though I do like your suggestion to buy used equipment). I am not sure there is an easy answer here. I suspect people should just buy the gear they can afford, enjoy it, and direct their patriotic energies towards the political arena, where might still be possible.
Utter Bull. You buy a 100% Chinese made product, that money benefits the CCP. You buy a product produced in another country that uses some Chinese components, your purchase benefits the CCP by the value of those components. Audio gear is a luxury product. The individual gets to choose how much to pay. For most people that involves saving up for what they want. People have the choice of saving up a bit longer and knowing that they are depriving a communist dictatorship of money or they don't care and will buy the Chinese stuff.
We have been moving maufacuring to China since Sam Walton died. They have the largest maunufacturing base in the world. Their tech has improved at leat to a level eqivalant to the US.
'Since Sam Walton died'. WTF Walmart started the sale off to China. If you think Sam Walton is anything but a traitor to the USA, you probably own their stock.
@@haroldclark4485 It's called FREE trade, a concept central to American ideals. Competition is part of democracy. Settle down, and drink yer Budweiser; say, that's a real 'Merican name, isn't it? And just out of curiosity, do you ever shop at Wally World? I do, because it's cheaper than anywhere else. Does that make me a traitor? Hmmm, must be "Merica is chock full of traitors!
chi-fi has been so great as someone who comes from a working-class background and has a lot of friends who aren't willing to save up hundreds of dollars to try out a hobby that might not pan out for them. got my friend into budget IEMs and seeing someone who was always a music enthusiast gain an appreciation for detail and stuff really puts into perspective how crucial good budget options in the audio space are.
Why blame the Chinese companies who have decent people working for them for taking American jobs ? Many don’t like Communism and both Republican and Democratic leadership allowed jobs to flow to China for decades .U.S. companies sent manufacturing jobs to China to make more money . If anything , we should be blaming U.S. companies with an assist from both political parties .
Glad you brought this subject up Steve! I was introduced to Chinese audio 6 months ago when I bought an Advent 300 receiver and a speaker craft amp locally and the seller gave me a little tube buffer preamp as well.i (cost $40).I was impressed.my current system is all Chinese now. Mark Levinson ML 2 clone amp,dual mono pure class A.($600,)Mark Levinson JC 2 dual mono class A preamp clone($200)Yaquin top load 6SN7 tube CD player($600) Boyuun A10 EL34 class A amp.($400)Top Notch Built,Alps pots,French caps,etc...$1800 invested.sounds stellar with n.o.s.tubes.(US or Euro built,about $10,000.00 or better!!!! I did not even get an owners manual for the amp or the preamp,but at that price,I don't care.great sound!!!
Great vid Steve, very thought provoking. Y'know, I had a thought as you spoke of short warranties and/or potential quality issues with Chinese products though. Back in the day when I had less sense and far more reckless financial proclivities toward audio, I bought a Wadia 6 CD player from a convincing sales person. It was $4500, and was domestically made. I don't think I got three years out of it. Just started spinning the disc, but wouldn't read it. Upon contacting the company I simply got a short email back (eventually) telling me it was no longer under warranty. No further info or suggestion as to what to do next. It sits in my storage and has for decades because I don't have the heart to toss my most expensive paper weight! LOL This was when I quit chasing the 'ultimate sound' dragon, and settled down to the notion that if it just sounds good, enjoy it, that's good enough (you have made a video expressing that similar philosophy in the past!). Long story short my point is simply that country of manufacture, along with corresponding expenditure doesn't necessarily mean you have guaranteed yourself years of quality, trouble free performance. Chinese is fine with me if the goods deliver!
Yes, they were really good at making pretty, massive, aluminum boxes - not so much with the electrical and mechanical engineering. Sorry for your loss - I really liked the one I had for a short time.
that's the problem with the technology; i buy a new dvd player every 3 years, it is their design life.....and it is the same with cd players...................your best bet is to get a 1st or 2nd gen player, restore it and use it as a transport
Korea, Vietnam, Phillipines, HongKong, Malaysia also make phones. LG Electronics. LG Electronics is one of the topmost Non Chinese TV brands. ... Panasonic Corporation. Panasonic Corporation was previously named as Matsushita Electric Industrial Co., Ltd. ... Samsung. ... Sharp Corporation. ... Sony Corporation. ... Toshiba. ... Onida. Many audio companies are leaving China for example: JL Audio is moving all of its marine audio manufacturing from China back to the US and it will expand production for car and powersports audio in the US, it said. The company already has 11 production lines in Miramar, FL and expects to add one or two lines a year over the next few years, it told the Sun-Sentinel.
@@jim9930 I actually have one of those Mitsubishi amps as well in my repair queue (the lights are on but nobody is home). I also have a Soundcraftsmen (made in beautiful Los Angeles in about 1962) valve amp awaiting a recap too.
Wow. You touched on a point that I NEVER see in any audio journals and merits a whole episode ***WARRANTY*** One buys really expensive specialized sh*t and the stuff doesn't always last and manufacturers don't all support it in the same way. A few years ago I bought an expensive DAC from a UK manufacturer that stopped working. Initial response was we'll send you a new one which was later retracted to send us the unit etc. Point being, I couldn't enjoy listening to music (unless I had a back up system) while it did its two month round trip from North America to UK and back again. This alone favors buying something that is more local or buy stuff that's cheap enough (whether its Chinese or whatever) so you can afford to replace it. Funny that cars etc always advertise warranty and its a major buying consideration for many people, but the industry seems to ignore warranty on high end electronic components.
Australia is a bit different - a company may say only a 1 year warranty for a 20k DAC, but you can successfully argue with our local fair trade department that the warranty is insufficient for the cost and prestige of the unit. Fair trading will usually side with the consumer and force the distributor to cover repairs etc. If only other countries *cough* the US *cough* started actually protecting consumer rights...
@@davepastern Norway has 5 years of consumer protection against manufacturing defects if the product should be expected to work for more that 5 years (to exclude cheap junk). And it is the supplier who has to prove that the problem is not caused by a manufacturing defect.
@@HittingImage That doesn't surprise me at all - Europe has always better protected the consumer, whereas the US government has always been more interested in protecting businesses at the expense of consumer rights protections. Australia is more like Europe. With us, we could argue that given the cost and prestige of a product, it should be warranty supported for X period of time (not limited to say, 5 years). Personally, manufacturers should NEVER be trusted to set a warranty and it should be set by a government authority after they have extensively tested the item in question. I'm sure many Americans will be up in arms about this comment as they have been brainwashed into thinking they have no consumer rights...
Mike Stulken that is exactly the main reason why all our electric are Naim so far, a really “old” company and a solid, reliable, dealer in my country... all this equipment is expensive: warranty and technical service is AS important as sound quality is for us...
I'm glad you cover Chinese audiophile products. Its a Chinese product, not just something made in China. It's not a major brand who makes products in China, where quality control and longevity of a product is important. It's just a bigggr gamble on if it lasts long or not.
Steve. A well balanced discussion on the subject. The sad reality is that China has the skill to make any product they choose. The western world cannot compete. I believe that we are selling our grandchildren’s future for inexpensive products today. We need to adopt a mantra of less goods but of better overall quality. Smaller homes with better furniture, less clothes with better tailoring. Etc. Largely sourced locally. This has been the Japanese and European approach for decades. Manufacturing of all types of goods needs to return to home, otherwise our national standard of living will continue it’s slow decline. Like the frog in a pot of boiling water, it will be too late when we realize the middle class, the largest consumer base is ...... drastically gone! I believe for audio used equipment is the way to go if you have a restricted budget. Good quality but slightly older is the best value for the money.
"The sad reality is that China has the skill to make any product they choose". That's not true. Lemme change your comment slightly. "China has the skill to copy almost any product they choose".
I hope you consider this a civil question. Why are you conflating made in Asia and made in China? I have no problems with purchasing products made in Korea, Japan, Taiwan and Singapore and someday India and Vietnam; but I am trying to limit purchases of Chinese-made products. If you think a Chinese superpower wouldn't be such a bad thing and couldn't be any worse than the US, just ask the Tibetins and the Uyghurs of Xinjiang how they feel about Chinese power.
Depends whether you realize how the Chinese government works and their intentions. Korea and other Asian countries are not the same. A great way to weaken a country is to undermine their economy, and do you have to understand how important the manufacturing sector is to an economy. It’s a pretty brilliant scheme they have going, and it’s a ticking time bomb.
@plaubel28 Do some research, China isn't communist anymore, at least not in the traditional sense. They have an unique system with free market capitalism (not everything), socialism and is a unitary state. The system is always shifting and evolving depending on the domestic and global situation. To still call China communist is just lack of knowledge. Back to Made in China products vs others. Companies can declare their products Made in the US for example if they produce every components of a product in China, have it assembled 90% complete and ship that to the US and screw in the backplate in the US and call it Made in the US. A lot of companies do that so, even if something is not made in China, chances are, it still is for the most parts and there is no guarantee that those products are much better than Made in China products.
@@versaleyang You can call China what you want, but I like this characterization: "A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, a capitalist economy subject to stringent governmental controls, violent suppression of the opposition, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism." This is actually the definition of fascism. The only thing I would differ with is that China is not authoritarian, it is totalitarian.
Here is how I see this topic. China does not have the same level of environmental regulation as the western world nor do they have the same labour protections. These are real concerns or should be. Do I own and purchase Chinese products how can you not but I try to be cautious of where I choose to spend my money. I love your show.
As an example, Americans pollute ten times more than people in India (yes, per capita) Most "American" products are made in Asia. In America, you have a minimum wage that is almost the same as in China. So, whom are you supporting? Business fat cats? Quality products made in the US went out of the window when you let money-grabbing "investors" in the door. It's kind of sad, I used to be a fan.
MrLudvig01 this is very true, in the UK and Europe US made cars are in the main not allowed as the US has much lower safety requirements when it comes to pedestrian safety than the U.K. and Europe. Same with foods, they have much lower safety standards when it comes to additives then as far as labour laws are concerned, well you just have to look at how many people are in deep trouble due to lower standards of workers rights compared to some other western countries. All works well when the dream is on track but put a couple of speed bumps in the road and there is chaos. For most outside the US we only ever heard about the dream but now we are seeing the reality and it does not look much better than China in many respects and especially in the past couple of years since the present president is sweeping aside many hard fought environmental policies to try and gain advantages in trade. I put the US now about on par with China when it comes to ethics I’m afraid, just look at the goon squads going in undercover in various cities to quell civil disobedience, Thoreau would be turning in his grave!
I like your discussion. I worked in China for 4 years as a teacher - it is not a cheap country! There is lots to admire when it comes to Chinese culture. Some original products are original and good quality. I got in touch with Jeff Zhu and bought his Holoaudio Spring DAC - discrete Ladder DAC which is an amazing quality product:-)
@Matthew Taylor Klipsch, Emotiva, Magnepan, U-Turn to name a few. Some items are made in America, some assembled in America other items designed in America. I do try
When it comes to audio, I have chosen to support American companies. Schiit, Vandersteen, SMc Audio. High quality and affordable by audiophile standards. I agree that some of the Chinese stuff sounds good. No doubt. The fact that China violates intellectual property rights is enough for me to not buy, if I can.
@@joemen3332 I agree. But want to point out that every company operating in China has to partner with the CCP for their manufacturing. So if you buy, say, a Marantz made in China, the CCP is getting their cut.
Great commentary, Steve. In my experience, Japanese made audio products have extremely good quality and longevity. My system consists of American, European and Japanese products. My cables are American made as well.
Kz acoustics has a history of copying Campfire audio designs and they sell it proudly in my country. I have stopped buying them being an audiophile, I prefer a company that brings in innovation in design and sound, rather than another which simply copies them and sells it. I prefer to promote originality than cut-copy-paste culture. If we don't support these communities, we won't be getting the quality gear that a good quality sound requires.
I'm in the UK. I have Tannoy XT8F speakers (made in China) I have an Audiolab M Dac (made in China) I have a Yaqin MC13S valve (tube in US) Amp (made in China). I have Schiit Vidars and Freya (US). My CD transport and Turntable are both made in Japan. My KEF Q700s are made in China. When I swap things around (as you do), the majority of my favourite components are made in China. I could not care less about the Politics, I am here for a finite period of time, and I will buy as I choose.
Excellent vid Steve. Your mate Parker is right, ultimately competition is a brilliant thing. As I said before, what I'd like to see is honest reviews of Chinese gear, that's it. Support pods, record pucks, cables etc etc - that is an area where we're often being seriously overcharged in the West.
Sweat shops producing for the west. Who else? What a pathetic statement. UK used children as chimney sweeps. US use illegal foreign workers still. Forgotten that? Many western countries once abused the people and the environment. They learnt and changed. China has evolved tremendously. Sweat shop? 😂🤣
Some 20+ years ago, I built an Audio Note Kit One, SE300B amp, it was cool. Then, I built my own 300B SE amp, after JC Morrison's brochure "The homemade tube audio Primer". I sure did put close to $1000 on building this amp, buying fine transformers, good tubes, parts, building a nice chassis and wooden frame etc.. gee was I proud of it. I still own it and it gave me a good 25 years of faithful service and fun audio pleasure. It's now due for some updates. I equally built a breadboard version of the Shishido 2a3 that I transformed into a 45 Tube version, and wow.. I'm hooked to that one. I didn't know that 2 watts (almost lol) and relatively efficient speakers (Reference 3AMM) could be so much fun. My point is, not everybody has those $2000+ to "experiment" with buying their first tube amp, or Single-Ended 300B Tube amp.. and not everyone has the skills, means, place to put together such an amp, without even knowing if it will work.. The Boyyurange A10 EL34 for example at $400\$500? certainly is a great place to start, a first step with something decent and affordable, and no american made product is available in this price range. So, why not? and then, later on, some might go for something more expensive and built locally. Everybody should be allowed to have access to a good basic tube amp, if it is his wish, of course. I agree too that used audio, bought locally is a great way to go too. Sylvain Giguère, Québec city.
Forget the dissenters mr Steve, your really amazing an so are Chinese Products now, this year is simply awesome for the audio quality, we are lucky to have such great products that us low income earners can afford. Why should Hi Fi be for the rich and proud. Audio Racists I wonder we live in a global world now. Question, will this make an amazing Pre Amp for a D class integrated??? The American made Nu Prime iD8 hahahahah
@@richardburton1434 I agree. Like the rest of his surroundings, it is lived in. A few other reviewer's homes are seemingly so spotless, surgery could be performed. Now THAT'S staged. Who really enjoys their stereos in a dustless pristinely spartan environment? Especially if living in an a Brooklyn, NY apartment for 30 some odd years?? Steve is real, no aires or excuses. Check out Mr. Fremer's digs. Like Steve, no where near spartan Electronic clutter, and dust all around. No excuses or aires made
The western world moved almost all production to China,so they know how to produce. The industrie forced us to buy Chinese made products. Chinese products can be very good.
China makes cheap shit of low quality that doesn't last ! I'd rather pay more for a higher quality product. Yet buying clothing or other goods is a whole other story.
Given the problem that I had with China hifi audio just recently, my answer is a big NO, I ordered an integrated amp, it said they were in stock, I had to keep following up on the order and it turned out a week after the order that, the one they had in stock was faulty and waiting for a new transformer, immediate alarms bells and i cancelled the order, when I got the money back, I was down £53 bank transfer fees, they said they were going to help with that, but they never did. So NOO. I can appreciate that you can get good value, but if something goes wrong you are screwed. I then saw a Yamaha A-S1100 Ex-display model at a good price with full 2 year warranty and order that from a UK based company, and its a great piece of kit.
If you need an example of an American company imploding, study Boeing. I know Boeing really isnt a problem. Their situation killed thousands of people and the Chinese piece of equipment made you wait for delivery.
Matthew Taylor sooner or later you might wake up. You don’t have any idea of quality sound, or anything else,.!! 😃 enjoy your Chinese junk 💥😷🦠 and every thing they produce 😱
@@wayneque2101 Yes but Wayne you're missing the point mate. The Chinese can and do manufacture some superb quality gear - ask the UK brands going there to get their gear made. Ask Apple for goodness sake! I'm old enough to remember when the Americans denigrated "Made in Japan".....
You are absolutely correct Steve! The cost of doing business is directly related to governmental regulations and taxes. My startup in California was severely hampered by the then AG Kamala Harris who repeatedly sent me letters of NO! on at least three state business license applications. If these politicians would just get out of the way all would be better! End of rant
This goes back a long way. Bureaucracy delayed the French, leaving the English to develop steam power without competition, at the start of the Industrial Revolution.
The thing that's unfortunate is that I think there are a lot of people who don't want to buy Chinese made goods, but American companies, to your point, have all outsourced their production there. I don't want a Chinese made smart phone, or TV, but there actually aren't really other options on the market for most of these items. After seeing what they did with pharmaceuticals while COVID was ramping up, my taste for China was soured to a point of total digust. We've given one country the ability to simply cease producing critical products that people around the world rely on, and that needs to stop, because now they can just stop exporting things whenever they choose in order to cause physical harm to others. And we haven't even touched on the potential that some products are made from literal slave labor in Uighur concentration camps.
@Pong Yang you say they don't actively work to attain that business from these companies but that's not entirely accurate. China is willing to work with these large organizations to make the labor so cheap, that in some cases it is literal slave labor. China is also actively buying large shares of organizations to continue pushing them towards China. There is also the fact that China has little to no real pollution regulations of true substance, they actively mine rare earth metals where other countries don't want to. Companies can get away with a lot more in China than just about anywhere else on the planet, and that's not a good thing. They're the number one contributor to green house gasses by miles, were talking more than most developed countries combined. Rare Earth metal mining is extremely damaging to the planet as well. Labor laws are non-existent. Some of the apple factories in China have suicide nets around the building for workers who finally lose their minds and try to jump, the nets will catch them. If Japan, or the US ever started to finally harvest rare earth metals again, that is half the battle. Its a lot more expensive to ship those metals here, then pay someone a decent wage to produce electronics than to just produce it in the one real source of both metals needed cheap labor. But the EPA makes that nearly impossible. Someone is going to pollute the Earth, but we would all rather it be China and pretend it isn't happening I guess.
@Pong Yang absolutely true. You can definitely produce a product here and sell it, even if your margins are going to take a bit of a hit. Unfortunately most large organizations have decided profit > values.
But there are exceptions like Henry Repeating Arms ("made in America or not made at all") and Solid Bar Fitness (high quality Olympic bars). Products made in the USA.
In the last few years I have really paid attention to where things I buy come from. Smartphones and computers, probably impossible to guy non Chinese, however, in Audio there are plenty of choices, that are affordable to an average income person like myself. Now I don't necessarily mean US made, just not China, I just want to prove to myself that with a bit of research, you can find better products for similar if not a bit more money. My Zu Audio Omen DW speakers with a beautiful Ruby Red Hickory finish is my example. Made in Utah, I had a question, I picked up the phone and called their number, I got the guy who put them together. And at least to me, these are some of the best sounding speakers I have experienced. If it not in your budget I totally understand, I had the chinese made Klipsch RP 600s that were 90% of my Omens for less than half the price. So I guess for me the number is about double, if I see/hear a difference. I did not watch the previous video because I have no interest in Tube amps. On a side note, I have a set of Polkaudio Monitor 4s I purchased new in 1989, made in Baltimore MD, and I would put them up agains anything under 400 dollars today.
All these people making comments on their Chinese made phones... that's hilarious and true... but I get it... I try to buy American (Schiit Audio) but wish I could afford Harbeth Speakers.... instead, settled for the China made Wharfdale Lintons... which are great and fit and finish is UNBELIEVABLE!!! So yes... we try but reality hits and to me its ok... but not all Chinese products are so bad...
Yes, but aren't those Harbeth's made in England? Just like those Chinese produced Wharfdale's you bought, many times what you think is product made by a certain company is actually made elsewhere. And you are correct. Lots of good stuff coming out of China.
While I always praise how far they have gone in improving their performance and sound. QC issues is still very abundant. Do you think your pair sounds the same with the others? Do you think your pair are built to similar reliability? Will it live for years or just a few months? Chi-fi is still a huge gamble. Play carefully.. If you want great sound for a fraction of the cost? Sure! But stick with Japanese or German made products for now if you want consistent QC and reliability.
Hi Steve, you and Sean know it well . I always have had tube amps and horn speakers for 45 years. Many Countries tubes amps have let me down my last 3 China made amp are just great point to point wiring . I have a great tech here it Toronto . Fixed an old Antiques Amp amp and it sounds great for 15 years Most expensive brands are assembled in China now. Have had my system now for 25 years. No health insurance , teeth problems . We are lucky to shop in China. Love my Dual 1229 Turntable an Share Cartridge
Yes...no problem. I remember the bias against Japanese products in the 60s and 70s. Now we look at early Japanese components with nostalgia. The same will inevitably happen with Chinese products in the future when we’ll be sceptical of all the African products flooding the markets. And so it goes.
Steve, the thing is. A purchase is somewhat of a political statement. If we buy a piece from China, a portion of the revenue goes to the CCP. YES it cost more to support American made but doing so, keeps the $ in a US bank account and makes for a more healthy economy. Buying from China is hypocritical, we complain (I included) about the CCP's abusive behaviour but yet, we support their existence by financing them. I for one, try to not buy anything from China, if possible.
30 YEARS ago I was involved with a USA company that bought the best of British manufacturing then stripped the factories clean and shipped all the tooling to China. Not only did they rape about 10 factories but also many thousands of jobs over a 2 year period made me sick cos this was happening to quite a few British companies by Americans. So now I have nothing against Chinese goods but I sure do about Americans, they caused they created globalization and now they have the cheek to complain... I would go as far as to buy a Chinese copy of an American "made " product, serve themselves right.
I know something that could help to start a stereo company make a nice full sized VU meter component like the one Radio shack use to make you can make it with different faces and with different color meters start off making them of varying costs
A couple of the brands you mention _do_ have products made elsewhere (usually their higher end products). LG for instance has many of their TV sets made in Korea. I've recently purchased a washer/dryer and 75" TV made in Korea. KEF's higher end speakers are still made in jolly old GB. I try to find Vietnam, Taiwan, Indonesia and India. There's plenty out there. It's not easy to research (especially online) but I've drawn my own personal line.
The biggest problem for me would be customer & warranty service, which I'm certain must be non-existent. I would assume this is a typical modern day disposable product. When it breaks, pitch it.
The prices are attractive, but I have a real ethical problem with buying stuff from China (when I have the choice). Products of questionable quality. Manufacturers abusing their labor force. Manufacturers abusing the environment. Undercutting US jobs. The environmental cost of shipping stuff across the Pacific ocean (and across the continent to the East Coast, where I live). Price is not everything.
Plenty of USA manufacturers or companies that exploit their labour force or pollute in the US or many other 1st world companies for that matter. Don’t kid yourself.
also it's no secret Nike's sweatshops in Indonesian been exploiting workers for years.... so stop claiming ethical highground when US companies only care about their profit margins
We are counting on you to keep us on the rails Steve. Well done sir. The choices are great. Schiit, Emotiva, Parasound, Zu, Tekton, Klipsch, etc. are always an option with varying degrees of keeping money in the US.
An important part of ownership is pride. Currently I do not feel good about owning Chinese goods. A year ago I did not feel this way. I do own an Oppo 205. Would I buy it again for the $1,300 I paid, yes. Conflicted? yes.
@@rothschildianum You can not judge a man until you've walked a mile in his shoes. It's a pretty easy to denounce someones integrity, and a very strong statement. I usually look hard in the mirror before I do this.
Actually, he said he was conflicted and questioned himself. That is self reflection and good for the soul. All you did was judge him. Judge not lest ye be judged my friend.
Bought Chinese ( Willsenton R8 ampli, SMSL su8 DAC and SoundArtist LS3/5A these last for my secondary system)... never regretted. By the way Denafrips has just released a CD transport that seems even better than your Jay’s try grabbing one for a review. With love from Italy. Keep on surprising us...
Hey Steve. the issue I have with buying Chinese products is this: there is no product that cannot be reproduced a little shoddier and cheaper. So a company designs a new product and gets it made in China with full quality control and known source parts. Their Intellectual property is stolen and reproduced endlessly with no quality control and the crappy reject parts. The designer of the product loses the sales they would have had because the Chinese government will not enforce international copyright laws, instead they force IP turn over and shield the violators. If a designer in China built a new and unique design I would buy it, if it had adequate quality control.
I agree. It’s common for American high tech electronics designs to be copied down to every single original design flaw. A lot of jobs are lost due to IP theft.
I know you must get a lot of request to review this or that but would you consider getting hold of a Line Magnetic 211A to review? I think it would be good to see if a point to point wired ultra linear and triode tube integrated amp under $1k is actually good! There aren't many (respected) Chinese tube amps at that price to choose from apart from maybe the Willsenton R8. I know Herb Reichart loved a more expensive Line Magnetic amplifier so I'd really like to know what you think of their entry level! Thanks! Max
I did buy a pair of Kef R3's recently, even though they are manufactured in China. I did some soul searching before I purchased, but I didn't feel too guilty as Kef is a British company that does all of the R&D in-house, so they will profit as a company. All of the really high--end speakers (like the blades) are still made in the U.K.
Thank you for approaching this topic in an objective manner, Steve. For me, Chinese products, or Chinese-made products, are definitely a no-no. I live in a country which the PRC has never ruled yet has gone to great lengths to try to annex. It has forced international airlines to change the designation of my country, blocked it from participating in the WHO with COVID-19 raging, and flown warplanes around it. The PRC has concealed information about the initial COVID-19 outbreak in Wuhan, which has snowballed into a global pandemic that has killed hundreds of thousands of people. It has reneged on its promise to Hong Kongers that it would grant it autonomy until 2047 and arbitrarily introduced a national security law for the territory, eroding its status as Asia's financial hub. It has waged a bloody war against Tibet after signing with it a peace treaty and exiled its leader. It has set up internment camps in Xinjiang where it holds Uyghurs and other Muslim minorities captive. Many of the inmates have reportedly died in the internment camps. Nations around the world have long outsourced their products, including audio products, to China, which saw its economic take flight. However, China has not made its economy clout a force for good, but gain hegemony over other nations -- by stealing US intellectual property, trespassing in other nation's territorial waters and embedding its officials in international organizations. To answer your question, Steve: Yes, I would spend twice as much for that amplifier if it were made in the US or the UK or the EU. I have been doing so, actually. My current setup: Speakers: ProAc Tablette 10 (UK) Amphion Argon 3S (Finland) Amplifier: Cyrus ONE HD (UK) CD Player: Cyrus CDt (UK) Turntable: Edwards Audio Apprentice TT (UK) Technics SL-1200MK6 (Japan) Cables and interconnects: Taiwanese-made cables (Taiwan) Phono stage: Schiit Mani (US) The only three things that I own that are made in China are the ones that I cannot avoid: laptop, cellphone, underwear. I might end up getting less for more money, but at least I would not be supporting China's economy, which would only further embolden their wrongdoing. When I choose a product, I obviously choose quality, but I also choose the values they represent. When I can't get both, I opt for the latter, even when it means that I might have to sacrifice a little quality. Finally, if my social media is inundated by angry comments made by the "fifty-cent party" or "wumao" because of this post, I will consider it an honor.
I own Klipsch Forte II speakers (modified), a Cary 500 CD player, a Dynaco PAS-4 pre-amp, a modified Hafler power amp, Koss 950 electrostatic phones, a Dual 714Q turntable, and a Pioneer L-1000 linear turntable, plus a bunch of other stuff not in use right now. So let's see - that would be USA, Germany and Japan. No Chinese so far. I'd love to hear that A50 amp with the Klipsch's, though.
maybe some small components but all ther design nothing to do with CHIFI...I have gear that is totally Made in the USA, speakers , all amps and drivers made in house..... you all that buy CHIFI now are thinking more about your wallet and not your own future
...the general answer is I want to pay 1/10 the price of a Manley 300B SE/PP monoblocs and I don't mind if it sourced from China and there are no virus packets in the capacitors...the big disparity in price is due to labor cost, overhead and targeted profit margin...if you cost out a CHORD Qutest selling for $2,000 the materials probably cost $500 or less but you can get a Topping D90 MQA for $800 that will perform just as good or just as satisfying...
Steve you make a very very good point. Why get worked up about audiophile gear if you’re walking around with an iphone in your pocket. The mass consumer markets dwarf the market for audiophile gear. Schiit is certainly leading the way showing what can be done in the U.S. that’s high quality and affordable in the spirit of some of the great US companies of the past. My affordable system is composed of carefully selected items from the U.S. the UK, Italy and China. There is a mix of new, dealer demo and second hand items. I agree very much with your statement that there has never been greater choice for audiophiles seeking affordable high performance audio gear.
Not just limited to audio gear. I think changing the conversation from trying to match the Chinese prices to how to uplift the Chinese people out of the oppressive conditions is a better conversation. Everything has a cost to it, it's just not always monetary.
I love it when they match tubes. Why do they do that. Is in a batch of 12 are they all different? Why are they different? Why do they sound different? Because they are all different and have different distortion measurements mostly in the even harmonics.
@@kyoono1771 What if we Canadians had the same attitude towards some of the fantastic American made products? PS Audio & Schiit, come to mind. We Canadians are every bit as capable of making high end audio as our fellow Americans are and you'll find our prices are quite competitive. I really take offence with your attitude but know full well that the majority of Americans feel much more positive towards Canada just we do to our southern neighbour and appreciated "friend". There, I was civil ... it wasn't my first choice. Charles, Canada (my family is both American and Canadian and proudly so)
These days i buy mainly from China because i live in Easter Europe and here prices for everything are higher than normal and the prices for audio are sometimes double than prices in the US or Western Europe. One example is the Dayton Audio B652-AIR costs 50$ in US here it's 120$. You guys in the US dont know how good you have it when it come to audio :) And the other reason i buy from China is that i don't pay for just the name of the brand i pay for the quality. I have a lot of Chinese audio products and most of them are amazing for the price and there is nothing in that price range that even comes close. The other thing is that there is a big difference between Made in China and Made by a Chinese Company! If you look at smartphones the companies that make the innovations are mostly Chinese and the other just copy them.
Why all this anti China sentiment. Here in Jamaica audio equipment from the US and Europe is expensive, real expensive. If it wasn't for audio equipment coming from China and the rest of Asia we would never to able to afford it. And the quality of built and sound has gotten better over the years. The problem with the US is that companies no longer make cheap products of good quality anymore. Your automotive industry is a testament to that. Can't make a descent small car. America needs to learn that the world is the new marketplace and if that you competing for different cultures and customers with different pockets.
@@SteveGuttenbergAudiophiliac I know I cant avoid buying buying chinese if electricity runs through it, I buy used. I currently Have: Marantz 6100 turntable Sony TC640 Reel Onkyo P404 preamp Technics SE 9600 amp Klipsch rt81 ii
I have chinese (kz) earphones, a smartphone dac, two digital amplifiers. I also had the legendary topping tp22 which died sadly and had the fx audio 802 original (i lost it in a relationship breakup). These two were my favorite amplifiers.
One of the reasons things are cheaper when they come from China is indeed the cost. It's far cheaper to not have a minimum wage, unions or basic human rights. Especially if you can use slave labor from ethnic minorities that you round up in camps and can disperse around the country as if it was just another resource. Also small edit: Why do people insist that has to come from China to be cheap? Are we gonna ignore that a company like Schiit Audio exist?
As an engineer who works in industrial electronics and hobbies in audio i can tell you that all that glitters is not gold. Fake inferior parts, copies of name brand components like Dale resistors wema caps tosheba transistors etc are used in Chinese products across the board. When the Japanese did this they used excellent quality parts and didn't use slave labor. True competition as apposed to cheap fake junk. I know some of it sounds and looks good but it simply can't be counted on to last. Yes I have and will continue to pay 2 to 3 times more for real systems knowing that in the long run it's cheaper because of replacement costs.
We are so fortunate in the USA to have a lot of choices.. I was in the market for an all tube integrated amplifier a year ago. After much consternation, decided to get one that is hand made in the USA and I definitely paid a premium of about 3X for it. But for me, it is worth it... That's my choice and it works for me.
@@matthewhilty4209 I ended up with a Rogers High Fidelity integrated amp. Pure Class A heaven ! Roger Gibboni provides outstanding lifetime warranty. I have a very efficient pair of horn speakers so I don't need much power. The only downside is it also heats up my listening room ! LTA - I know of David Berning's work as one of my friends has his amp from 3 decades ago and it is still going strong.
iPhone is made in china, bad quality? nope, because it's american brand luxury fashion brands made in italy by chinese labor, bad quality? nope, because it's italian brand A few months ago I bought a quilted bomber from a German fashion brand called A Kind Of Guise and it's "proudly made in Germany". But the sewing quality is sh*t compared to my chinese made track jacket from French brand Isabel Marant. go figure
My strategy is to buy from local audio dealers so my choices will be determined by what they can provide. The reason is I want to be able to take it back if I'm not happy or if repairs are needed. Since tube amps are so heavy, sending them back to China is out of the question. I live in Switzerland so you can imagine the premium I have to pay to buy locally (slightly offset by the low VAT here). Luckily my needs are modest :-)
We,re really talking about the Chinese govmnt, and what hey do to an industry when they come to play. If they come lagit, out of love for audio then sure. There are plenty bit players never mentioned ayer accoustics, VTL, and likely less expensive brands as well I would rather hear about. The exposure would benefit these smaller players. Factory tours like ya have done in the past would be great!
Maybe we should put up a list of chinese manufactured audiophile gear so that people can have an easy lookup before purchase? I had to search high and low on the net for these information which certainly does not seem productive in choosing a gear to buy.
No thank you, I will not support a Rouge Country. So many other great companies to buy from. I'll gladly pay the extra for the quality and not support slave labor practices.
I think Schiit and Tekton are great examples of what can be done in America and compete with Chinese-made products on both performance and price. I'd take them over Chinese products at the same price any day of the week.
Theft of intellectual property is not exactly “competing”. Neither is cheap, sweatshop based labor force as to fair wages paid elsewhere. And lastly, you can make a moral choice with your $. And Steve, bc it’s cheaper, it doesn’t make it a better value.
At those prices, you pretty much don't need warranty. You can do 2 to 3 replacements. Also electronics these days pretty much don't fail, how many dead items out of the box have we actually encountered? Usually if it works, it works.
I have Chinese friends living in Hong Kong it is a political story Steve. What is taking place in CCP China today is not acceptable. Having said that we do buy made in China products if we have no other choice and by no means do we hate the Chinese people. The issue is CCP their actions must stop.
Absolutely! We must distinguish between the Chinese people, who are victims of the CCP government, and the CCP and its allies -- virtually all the big Chinese companies would be considered extensions of the CCP. Now, I'm not worried about a tube amp spying on me. But we need secure high tech products, and we need to decouple from China in that area. If these audio products are small operators, and they make quality gear, it isn't unreasonable to give them a spot in the marketplace. But as far as internet-connected items, high tech items, buying from China is supporting an immoral system. In addition to basic human rights violations, China is a big polluter, it is increasingly threatening to its neighbors. We have to seriously think about how to keep the Dragon in its cage. Only a new system, with rule of law and rights for its citizens, can tame the beast.
@@EclecticApotheosis it's not about your Chinese tube amp spying on you. It's the fact you are injecting money into the CCP. You buy your tube amp from another country, even if they use Chinese components, you're reducing the money that benefits a communist dictatorship that has a history of human rights abuses that rivals Stalin and wartime Germany.
@Bluuoff Bluuoff And it's common knowledge that the CCP has hundreds of people that do nothing other than post pro CCP messages in response to anyone pointing out how bad the CCP are.
A lot of what's going on in the US today is not acceptable or humane either. But it's the govenments of both of these countries that are responsible for these unsavory practices, not the hi-fi manufacturers. So are you going to buy nothing from the US either? Where should we buy our hi-fi gear from, Mars? Or our food, for that matter?
@@deaffromabove6640 this is a true fact thousands of ccp paid operatives post/troll sites like Steves to post pro ccp messages or take shots at US or Europe. Kevin Gentisch and Bluuoff Bluuoff are likely those.
I don't listen to the don't buy from China thing. Until we can get our stuff made as good and around the prices, then I will continue to buy from China. I have been an audiophile for many, many years. I do what I want and if you don't want to, then so be it. I do this hobby for the fun of it and the love for music. Anything else does not matter to me.
To answer your "one more thing", I would pay 0 extra dollars for audio made in us or eu. Why? Because I don't know anyone who received satisfactory aftermarket support from any western high-end audio company (excluding for the Sennheiser for their ridiculously expensive show off electrostats). 0800 number you are mentioning is 🙊🙈🤣🤣🤣🤣 good luck with that.
I'm Australian, but I would be willing to pay 2x or more for US made gear. I still cling to my "Made in England" Mission speakers. Sad they're now made on the cheap with a lot of other great UK speaker companies, all little more than badges under the same multi-national in the same factory. I am typing this on my IBM PS/2 Model M keyboard, most still say it was the best keyboard of all time. Lift it over and it is stamped "Made in the USA 1988". I have a modern Corsair MX Cherry Blue but even that doesn't get near the IBM. China does make good stuff if you ask them to make good stuff (eg Sony TVs) but many companies go to China to increase profits by decreasing the quality. Does anyone know how Krell is doing, now that it's made in China?
There’s a third way, which I learned living in Vietnam for a decade. The Japanese, like the Americans, can no longer make affordable hi-fi products for their domestic market. However, rather than turn to China, Japanese manufacturers of brands like Onkyo, Pioneer, Yamaha, TEAC, Panasonic and Denon make their products in places like Malaysia and Vietnam rather than China, and these products end up being exported all over Asia and the world. Malaysian-made electronics have a particularly high reputation for quality around Asia, while Chinese products are viewed as junk assembled in sweatshops. For a while, Pioneer and Onkyo sold stereo components in the US. I own some and they are solid as houses and sound great. (I’ve also got Focal speakers, which are made in France.) Both Onkyo and Pioneer ended up focusing on home theater in the US and dropped their component lines from the market here, which is a shame. But it’s still easy to get affordable audiophile equipment that’s made in the US, EU, Malaysia or Vietnam. There is no reason to support China and their predatory labor and trade policies and lax environmental regimes. None.
Anti-China attitude is just jingoism. I remember it decades ago with regard to Japan. Next, it will be Vietnam, or another country who's manufacturing companies cut out the middle man wholesaler and sell direct to the consumer. Recently, I've bought Denafrips and Audio GD DACs. Fantastic performance regardless of price.
I made the *"China = Hard Pass"* comment yesterday. I can say that personally, I have more reasons to buy Chinese than many here. I used to review photo gear, and 99% of the companies I was doing at the time were Chinese. I also learned the incestuous manufacturing practices. For the past several years, I've been quite active in the knife community. China came along about 5 years ago and completely changed the face of the tactical folder. I've owned a lot of Chinese production knives (well over 50 at one point), which have gone from junk to _world class products._ I've made a _lot_ of friends in _both_ China (designers and manufacturers) and here, who rely on China to manufacture their products. A few friends business' revolve exclusively around Chinese products. But a couple of years ago I came to the conclusion I can no longer support the CCP for all of the reasons mentioned in the comment section. However, I'm not going to get upset at those who purchase the products. I'm blessed at my age I can choose to support whom I want, and afford to be able to do it.
I bought the Kef LS50 metas ( British design , made in China ) and they are another level of workmanship and finish and sounds very good. Then I bought the Denafrips Pontus ( Chinese brand and made in China ),built like a tank and performed way above its price point. My next purchase will be the Willsenton R800i or Kinki Studio EX M1. For bang for the buck, the Chinese are unbeatable.
The funny thing about communism is no country ever really tried it. Practically all "communist" countries have had an extremely uneven distribution of wealth and goods.
At this point in time China is most definitely the biggest capitalist system on planet. Let’s not mix two very different definitions, communism and capitalism. Communism is a social system (which exists only in theory books, China is a socialist country), whiles capitalism is a set of market/trade rules and regulations. Both can exist together at the same time and place. For example (and I’m aware that most people don’t know this), Sweden is a socialist country by its social organization, but a full capitalism with free market. The actual counterpart to Socialism is a Democracy, not the “capitalism” as a system.
China is no longer a communist country. It hasn't been for decades. It's as much a capitalist country run by capitalists as the US is. The Chinese communist party is only communist by name, but no longer in practice.
It would be funny to watch the US turn completely to FASCISM if I still owned 800 shares of AAPL pre-split and they were worth 4 million dollars. I would laugh then. Unfortunately I sold them not knowing AAPL would be good with making slave goods at silly prices and everybody would pay extra for the name.
Why? On an international level, in regards to dealing with other nations, communist nations are just state capitalism. That and the fact that Chinese has not had a communist economy for nearly half a century.
