If the drugs hadn't gotten to him, Gooden would have been one of the greatest of all time. You had to see him live to understand how good his stuff was.
T F Gooden had the best curveball ever. Absolutely ever. That late huge drop got every hitter in MLB. Gooden was on pace to break every pitching record. It was a joy growing up and watching him pitch.
The best pitcher I’ve ever seen in my life. I remember sold out away games just to see one player. To hear the roar of the crowd after every strikeout was an experience most modern fans cannot understand. It was deafening.
That curveball was EVIL!! I was 13 yrs old and a die hard Cardinals fan. But in my humble opinion Gooden’s ‘85 season was the most dominant I have witnessed.
You’re hardly alone in that. It was ridiculous. By 1986 he’d already screwed himself with drugs, and even in the videos you can see he was terrific but no longer in the stratosphere. He is a tragic figure, even more than Strawberry, because he was never the greatest in the world as Gooden was before he descended.
no doubt, Rich. absolutely no doubt one of the most dominant if not thee most dominant season we have ever seen in our lifetime. dude was a monster that year
@Bread And Circuses NL leader in Wins (24), ERA (1.53), CG (16), IP (276.2), K (268), ERA+ (229), FIP (2.13), .524 OPS against. His last 9 starts - when the Mets were in a pennant race with the Cardinals - he went 7-2, 0.73 ERA, 76/18 K/BB in 74 IP, 4 CG (3 ShO), .467 OPS against. He started that stretch with an ERA of 1.82 and it *dropped* 0.29. At a time when there were no DVRs and not everyone had VCRs, Gooden's starts were appointment television.
I was never a Gooden fan, but as a fan of baseball at the time, I respect him as a player. That 1985 season was sick. Look at the numbers... 24-4 with a 1.53 ERA (are you freggin kidding me?), 16 complete games, and 268 K's. That has to rank as one of the best seasons for a pitcher -- ever.
@@chrisweidner4768 gibson was on meth that entire season. Greatest season ever. hands down. and he should have won more games. his losses and no decisions were mostly 1-2 run games.
His delivery was so smooth, so graceful and athletic, with the high leg kick and long stride. And those pitches! You hear pitches described as filthy or nasty. Docs werent filthy or nasty. They were works of art you wanted to frame and take home to appreciate their beauty. I could watch dude pitch for hours. It was a thing of beauty.
Man, the Mets had so much talent in the mid-eighties, but only manage to win one World Series(86). The Mets should have had a dynasty in the mid to late eighties.
Thanks so much for putting this together. I grew up a huge Gooden fan, so seeing all this footage really takes me back to when I was 9 and 10. There will never be another pitcher like Gooden who dominated so thoroughly at such a young age. This is gold.
I thoroughly enjoyed watching him do his thing! His curveball and fastball was awesome! He didn’t allow tough situations to consume him! He was so smooth with his delivery!
The top comment should be that this man was a phenomenal pitcher. He was my idol, as a kid growing up in Brooklyn. As an 11 year old baseball player? Shout out to St. John's Panamanian baseball league and the Cardinals from 1985. This man inspired a generation. Thank you for the memories, Mr. Gooden and the team who posted this montage.
Listen to that Shea Stadium crowd in those early years, just fantastic. It was an event everytime Gooden pitched back then and the hot home crowd always helped.
Happy B-Day to Doc Gooden. Not everybody can handle success and we know Doc did not handle his very well. His career record seems incomplete because his stuff was outstanding and fans can only wonder how quickly he might have reached 300 wins.
All baseball fans have their favorite teams, and memories of great moments. Following in my fathers footsteps, and being a huge Mets fan, that team of the mid eighties was nothing short of 'magical'.
In a word? NASTY!!! I saw him pitch while living in San Diego, and I'm telling you the "pop" of his catcher's glove was louder in the late innings than the first couple! Belie dat!!!
Gary Carter and Dwight Gooden was the greatest thing ever when I was a kid. The love and admiration they had for one another was obvious to the entire world. I see that now more today as a believer in Jesus Christ like Gary Carter was. Thank you guys.
A long time ago, when we were both young men; I caught “Dr. K” in practice, and during his pre-game warmup. His first few pitches of the day were manageable and not difficult to catch. 25 pitches in to his warmup, exactly 25 pitches, he would wave his right hand at me to let me know; I’m warmed up…..and it’s coming. The next 50 pitches hit my Franklin Softball catchers mitt (yes, a softball mitt) so hard; the ball felt like a sledgehammer hitting my hand if it missed the webbing. There were several days, when I was “off” as a catcher; I iced my left hand after those 50 pitches. Gooden was an absolute flamethrower and he did it with ease. Miss those days, but I always wondered what would have happened if Dr. K would have taken a better path.
Iam from Holland and my uncle once visited a match between the Yankees and the Mets during his vacation.After the match Dwight Gooden gave his cap to my uncle and my uncle gave it to me.From that day the Mets are my favourite team of all time
Thanks for uploading this. I’m a huge Doc fan, childhood hero. Despite his personal downfalls, I’ll always appreciate what he’s accomplished on the mound with the Mets!
Beautiful pitcher. His fastball rose up (I don't wanna hear that that's impossible), and his curve was a thing of beauty. His windup & delivery were poetry in motion. He also looked superb in his uniform, with those long stripes. And he was a really sweet guy. If not for that damn drug.....what might have been. But, he gave us memories.
Gooden was UN hittable in 84 & 85, just so dominant and at 19-20 years old. The world was his but he never came close to that top level again. Drugs & alcohol, the ruin of many men.
The physical wear 'n tear from Doc's insanely dominant first 2 seasons shortened his career -- wasn't only the substance abuse. Nowadays baseball teams know better than to put that kind of workload on a young pitcher's arm. Championships don't come without sacrifices however, as the Dodgers and Orel Hersheiser found out in 1988 (and many others before).
@@cybrhunk333 I hear you but drugs was the main issue, also Mel Stottlemeyer obsessively making him learn a change up which he was uncomfortable doing. I get wanting to add a 3rd pitch to his repitoire but when you have the best fastball & curve in the world it seemed to be working
@@rustykuntz94 If his fastball and curve weren't so devastating, Gooden may have stayed in the minors long eniugh to work on that changeup; which might've extended his career since it puts less stress on a pitcher's arm. Stottlemeyer had a good idea, but the Mets and Doc had no time for it.
I modeled my delivery in little league after Doc. On the mound I would be doc- at the plate I would return to being white and I was will Clark. The joys of youth! He had the best high arm slot delivery.
11:37 The Real Lord Charles. Probably the most vintage Doc curve ever caught on tape with one of the most beautiful windups, and to boot, Kid and Dutch behind the plate and some summer dirt in the wind in Queens, New York while Scully portrays the beauty of it all. Matthews never had a chance. You're Welcome.
It wasnt the drugs that ended Doc's reign of dominance. It also wasnt overuse- another suspect often cited as the culprit of his downfall. Obviously drugs arent conducive to athletic success so im sure they were a contributing factor but he would struggled regardless with or without the ye-yo. Dwight came up with two dominating pitches- a mid nineties four seem fastball and a big 12-6 curve. It was a high spin rotation rate on these pitches that made them hard to hit. It made the fastball appear to rise at it approached the plate (really it just dropped less than the average fb, the rotation giving it more stability and less drop) and it gave the curve dramatic late break. With this limited, albeit elite repetoire he lacked the secondary weapons to fall back on and its not atypical for pitchers without a deep arsinal to start of unhittable but lose dominance as batters began to figure them out. In Doc's case hitters learned to lay off the high heat and thats why his stikeouts decreased every year from his rookie year on. Simply put batters figured him out. I think if the Mets were more patient with his development and left him in the minors to learn to throw a good (or even average) changeup and also a sinker or a cutter, or even a slider it could have extended his peak of dominance. He wouldnt have to rely solely on the heater and curve and having more options woulf of made those two pitches even more dangerous. Batters wouldnt be able to guess so easily what pitch was coming next. He would of had deception as a tool. As it stood his heater and curve were so good that he was whiffing batters even though they knew what was coming- at first anyway, but hitters will always find a way if they know what to expect. If he had good offspeed offerings coupled with near identical release points he would be able to fool hitters. I suppose he was so dominant off the jump that Mel Stottlymire, Davey Johnson and the other Mets coaches felt that he didnt need to have more than two pitches but they were wrong. Doc was only 19 when he came up and most 19 year olds only have a couple good pitches at that point in their devolopment so its not his fault. In todays game he would of been left to cook a little longer in the minors before leaving the oven with a couple more pitches in his holster, or he would of been transitioned to the pen. Loom at Kerry Wood- brought up super young, dominant early on before stuggling before being made a closer. I know in his case injuries played a part and im not super familiar with his pitch arsenal but i know a heater and curve were the bulk of it and i wouldnt be surprised to lesrn that it was all he threw when he came up. Nowadays starters almost always have three pitches at a minimum and almost always include a changeup or splitter of some sort to go with the heat and breaking stuff. Give doc an elite change and he is Nolan fricking ryan, or better! Also one last point needs to be made. Lets not pretend doc had two good years before falling of the cliff into complete suckiness. He had almost a decade of pretty good pitching after his cy young year. Sure. he wasnt rhe one and half e.r.a. ace of aces anymore, but was a guy who when healthy (and not suspended) gave you 200 quality innings averaging less than four runs over 9 innings, so cheers to doc for an impressive career anyway you slice it. Now who wants to pack the crack jenny and watch the world series parade on TV?
Great analysis. I recall in 86 various theories regarding the drop off, one being hitters learning to lay off the high heat and him losing movement on the fastball for whatever reason. I agree with you, but also think there were other elements involved: he started "hiding" the ball more in his glove to prevent tipping his pitches and started messing more with the cut fastball which I believe resulted in some hitches in his mechanics and release point, further resulting in a less "over the top" release point and hitters being able to pick up his fastball better. I do think overuse (over 300 lps in the minors in 83, over 200 in his rookie year the next year, with a number approaching 300 in 85) and the substance abuse -- even if alcohol -- possibly playing a part as well. He honestly looked somewhat out of shape at times in 86. Towards the late 80s you could see his mechanics being strikingly different where he looked like he was a bit unbalanced, almost throwing across his body in a slower windeup -- can see it a few times even in this video looking at some of the batters in the 88 playoffs vs mid 80s. His strikeouts did decrease drastically from 84 to even his great 85 season where he shortened his stride to the plate, but he actually started off the 86 season as strong as ever, just less strikeouts. But by May '86 he became mortal and never really regained that superhuman form, although he still had excellent years until about 91-92.
@@dareal05 thanks. I had heard that various coaches had tinkered with his mechanics over the years and that this had contributed to his decline. Also, in the pre-sabermetrics 80s and 90s the concept of pitching to contact versus focusing on strikeouts was gaining steam and I had assumed that Doc was steered towards this idea. I dont remember him being a big groundball guy so he wouldnt be the ideal pitcher to move away from stikeouts, and his struggles correlates strongly with his declining strikeout rates. I remember early Doc with the super high knee coming up and over the top delivery and over the years his delivery became more compact and he threw across his body more. My guess would be a combination of deliberate tweaks from Mel Stottylmire and other coaches combined with burnout and fatigue from overuse and drug/alcohol abuse contributed to this change in his delivery. He would naturally see a decline in velocity and spin rate. Add to that him tipping his pitches from a limited repetoire and its no huge surprise he wasnt able to maintain those ridiculous strikeout numbers from his first few seasons, which meant more hits and ultimately runs. The suspensions and injuries he endured wouldnt of helped either. Given all that I actually give him credit for being able to put together almost a decade of fairly competative seasons. If he had come up thirty years later with thr same raw talent but knowing what we know now about both pitching and treating substance abuse his career could of charted a very different course.
@@matthewmead2374 Spot on, and in fact, they started to try and lessen the significance of the K in the 85 season, which was his best (and I believe he avereged almost 3 ks or so less than he did in 84). Interestingly, it almost seemed like he was coming back to form to some degree in the 89 season -- started out 9-2, an ERA in the low-mid 2s and his strikeout average was right around where he was in 85. He ended up injuring his shoulder and missed a large part of the season, and these injuries started becoming more prominent as his career progressed. His 90 season was one where he wasn't unhittable (with a very long, slow motion to the plate), but his K total went back up to an 85 level and he won 19 games. Then, I can recall a game in early '91 -- a very cold, rainy day at Shea against the Expos. Bud Harrelson did not take him out the game despite him throwing close to 150 pitches (he had about 14ks). He complained of a "sore shoulder" after that game and I firmly believe his arm was never quite the same after that -- believe Doc may be on record somewhere even mentioning that. By 92, after suffering injuries, his FB was clocked on average maybe 2 or 3 mphs slower and it was clear "Doctor K" would never return (had always had hope he would regain that 84-85 form).
You yap a lot....damn!!! but I agree with your concept. Players figured him out, & he had no other weapons. Had he learned a changeup & a slider, it would've added to his gun-belt. I'm just glad I was alive when he pitched....before the drugs really took hold. Even with that, he threw a no-hitter with the Yanks....and although he walked 6, it was against the Mariners, who had a hella offense.
Being from Cleveland, I would watch Mets games on WOR CABLE TV …he was unhittable and Lord Charles was sick…if he could have stayed away from the drugs…remembering the good times Doc thanks
@Bread And Circuses because he came in at 19yrs old.. went 17-9 that year with 276 strikeouts.. as a rookie he struck out the side in the all-star game.. i was living in NY when he won world series in 86.. he then won a world series in 96 with cross town Yanks... his high leg kick and body was made for pitching.. plus much more :)
To this day, he was the best young pitcher I've ever seen. At the time, my buddies and I were wondering why such a big deal was being made about his supposed inability to hold base runners. Our thought was, "What base runners? There's hardly any!" As for developing a third pitch such as a change-up, we also wondered what the rush was to do so. His fastball and curve ball were so dominant, and his control and understanding of the strike zone was so spot-on, especially for his age, why try to fix what wasn't broken? As time would have gone on, he would have eventually had to make the necessary adjustments and come up with a change-up or something along that line. What a shame that bad choices in life and injuries ruined what should have been a Hall of Fame career. In retrospect, as dominant as he was at such a young age on the baseball field, it was too much for him to process off the field.
I'm from Ireland and lived in NYC in mid 80s til 92..Shea was electric then,Gooden n Strawberry being main draw altho whole side was brilliant.Great days,hope they come back soon.Lers Go Mets.
,It's unbelievable that He never pitched aNo Hitter until late in his career If nothing happened HE would have been in the Top 3 of all Time Nolan Ryan, Doc and whoever else!!!
I have Gooden's rookie card, Strawberry too.... and was hoping they would both become something but they both sort of blew it, or snorted it. Some real good years but both had their issues that affected their game.
Would have been a top 10 pitcher all time had he stayed clean. He couldn’t do it. So sad. He was so addicted. Could have reached 275-300 wins and 4000 Ks.
If it weren't for the coke this man would have been a first ballot hall of famer. In the 80s he was the next Bob Gibson and had some nasty stuff - at times unhittable.
Look at his motion in 84-85 as a 19-21 year old, and then later in the late 80's, when he was more upright. By then his stuff wasn't as dominate. Sure drugs had something to do with it. But, his body matured, and he put on at least 25lbs from 84 to 89.
I never noticed it before, maybe because of the focus on the off the field stuff as his downfall. You are correct. His build and delivery both changed after the first couple of years. He was still good to great depending on the day but he was never that dominant again.
4:25 Doc finishes Alvin Davis, who would go on to win ROY for the AL that year. Doc would do the same for the NL, before going on to bulldoze the league next year for a 1.53 ERA and a Cy Young. A little bit of trivia: There is another Mets pitcher who K'd the side in an All-Star game, and he's also won (at least 1) Cy Young with sub-2.00 earned run average
Mets pitching coaches should’ve been charged with crimes in how they screwed with Gooden’s mechanics. Forced him to throw sliders, work on pick-off moves, take the “loop” out of his leg kick, shorten his delivery time. If they left him alone he was on pace to put up 1985 stats for the next 5 years before any arm “blowout”. Multiple World Series championship and first ballot HOF his stuff was that good. A rising 95mph fastball that exploded upwards in the strike zone and a 12-6 hook that Vin Scully said was the only curveball that reminded him of Koufax. Since 1985 I’ve yet to see a pitcher with such a classic delivery and outrageous filthy stuff. Gooden was that fun to watch, you had to see him live to understand.
Didn't know they made him throw sliders. First time I heard that, that's interesting, two seamers and sliders, complete opposite of what he came up as. I wonder how he would of fared today. There's an emphasis on throwing high four seamers and curves in today's game, but on the other hand there is also an emphasis on shorter, easily repeatable deliveries.
@@baseballinc.9888 this reply is correct. They thought a starting pitcher couldn't have longevity without a third pitch ,imo it diminished the curve throwing a slider
I loved Gooden 1984-1990 HOF numbers. Unfortunately he let some of the off field influences effect his decision making and his career paid the price. 194 career wins still respectable.
Dodgerfilms highlights are coming, I can’t promise anything in the near future but by the end of the year lots of dodgerfilms videos should be coming out
Worst thing that ever happened to him was falling to the Mets at #5. Mets killed him - first Mel Stottlemyre monkeying with his mechanics, then Davey's Party House introducing him to coke. How sad. I say that as a Met fan. By 1986 at age 21 Doc was already no longer dominant.
The announcer misquoted "Sir Charles" which was Dwight's curveball. Curveballs are known as "Uncle Charlie" but Gooden's curve was known as "Sir Charles" in the Mets club house.
It's a shame watching these videos in one way--the state of baseball was much more pure than it is now. Today's game is a abomination compared to the 80's: expanded playoffs, PEDs, Brewers in the NL and Astros in the AL, replays, too many players from South and Central America, #42 retired across the board, et al. They've ruined MLB.
