Does being a member of a Gurdjieff group create fragmentation? | J. Krishnamurti

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Brockwood Park 1980 - Question #8 from Question and Answer Meeting #2
'I have been a member of a Gurdjieff group. I find it has given me a background to better understand what you are saying. Should I continue with such a group to possibly help others, as I was helped? Or does such a group make for fragmentation?'
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28 сен 2024

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Комментарии : 390

@alwalw9237 3 года назад

I personally think Krishnamurti and Gurdjieff, and many more spiritual teachers are merely speaking of different paths to the same destination. There are countless paths back to who we really are. After studying both these men and others I found my path in something that is new to this world, yet ancient and beyond time called "The Steps to Knowledge" It is a hands-on, practical spirituality that provides clear guidance to reach the internal places both Krishnamurti and Gurdjieff describe.

@piafilms2804 3 года назад

Thank you.

@julieann1975 3 года назад

Thank you

@LuisRodriguez-wo6nl 3 года назад

There's no Destination !!! When you gain enlightenment !! That's not a right way of describing it ...

@prabachann 3 года назад

Truth is a pathless land.

@lakeshiajohnson1406 2 года назад

@@LuisRodriguez-wo6nl all is in All

@LuisRodriguez-wo6nl 3 года назад

Krishnamurti - Undoubtedly one of the greatest & most important thinkers of our time !! The only downside I can think of when he speaks that humanity is lost in the pursuit of Enlightenment !! Is that this SPECIFIC TIMEFRAME that we are living being the year 2021 !! Only a handful of individuals will attain such a discovery !! Why because not everyone came here to experience enlightenment !! There's different levels and degrees of knowledge that still need to be attain before the world as a whole reaches such enlightenment and even then !!!!! Let me repeat it again EVEN ATTAINING ENLIGHTENMENT AT A PLANETARY LEVEL MEANING ITS WHOLE POPULATION HAS ATTAINED THE TRUTH OF LIFE .. THAT S NOT THE END GOAL !! You see still continues Ad Infinitum !!

@NoCenterTV 2 года назад

r e l a x

@franklerch1012 Год назад

good luck

@adekale 3 года назад

Gurdjieff was in my “book” long before I started with groups in Italy; and realised it while experimenting his teachings led by a pupil of his. Great Master of life Gurdjieff! the only one for me.

@serousetrick 3 года назад

I must agree with you, he is, indeed, the only guru. It is simply amazing what he is, I could not even say that he is a human, at least not a human by what we consider to be even enlightened human. I haven’t found anyone like him, if you have someone more modern in your mind please tell me. It’s too bad that is so hard to get in touch with people like him, who knows where are “hidden” teachers like Gurdjieff.

@Awareness_faith2024 3 года назад

How do we wake up from sleep? What should we do?

@JanetWiller 3 года назад

@@Awareness_faith2024 nothing predictable perhaps.

@danalexander186 2 года назад

@@serousetrick I’m one.

@DogDog-fi7hx 11 месяцев назад

@@indreams22could you further elaborate? I'm not being sarcastic btw

@newdawnrising8110 Год назад

Gurdjieff said without a group man can do very little. J. K. was a part of the theosophical society for many years before he broke with them. He had already formed something in himself before he went on his own. What would JK be without his groups and followers? JK didn’t offer any practice or anything to follow. He just honestly questioned things. I think ppl exaggerate him in many ways.

@noone5461 8 месяцев назад

He did all the time

@paullennon2697 6 лет назад

What he said is that we should not depend on others psycologically, groups are good for learning, but the psychological journey is you and your mind alone, no one can help you in there. The most difficult work is the internal work. This is what most people don´t understand or don´t want to understand because real change means letting go of all superficial things.

@mcnowski 5 лет назад

Teachers are definitely not superficial. I would say for some people they are essential.

@Valmiki168 4 года назад

Very well said Paul

@lucylitke1732 3 года назад

that's right!

@72mokekita 2 года назад

What Krishnnamuti says here is : who do you think we are to “help“ others? That’s why he went away from Blavatsky because every religion/movement thinks to be superior to the other and will want to help others ! WTF he is right !

@AL_THOMAS_777 Год назад

🙌 👏 🙏 🤝 👍 SO TRUE !!! Nothing is for free !!! AND: "All things leading to something GREAT are NOT easy and NOT paved." (M. Claudius)

@DrQuadrivium 6 лет назад

It's nice to see the anti-guru guru telling people that they don't need to listen to gurus.

@omalone1169 5 лет назад

@@daithiocinnsealach1982 is the phrase funnier vigilance from Kathleen and the psychicdynamics of liberation

@MrNiceHk 4 года назад

@@daithiocinnsealach1982 which is what Gurdjieff spoke too ironically

@Hrodric 4 года назад

More than answering questions, he always left more questions then those that he answered. And those that he answered it, he didn’t gave yes or no answers, he just pointed out to What people say and think, by investigation.if you do, because he doesn’t do anything, neither does he tell you anything, it its not his business to answer your questions for you, because he can’t only you can

@spiritualanarchist8162 4 года назад

Wrong Krishnamurti.

@chrisallfun4513 4 года назад

I took the antiguru advice to heart and ignored the antiguru advice because it came from a guru

@KingJorman 6 лет назад

I watched the first 4 minutes and K goes right to the center, right to the issues. He has a razor ability to cut through to what matters. The airing of the questioner's question is a launching pad for an inquiry. Forget about Gurdjieff for a moment. That is not the point. The point is, can you think for yourself, and delve into these very good questions in a beneficial way for yourself? Or do you long to be told what's what?

@thevitruvianman9781 4 года назад

First ask yourself, what part of yourself is thinking? You first need to know that the part of yourself you think is thinking for you, is ego. You need a teacher to tell you that. Gurdjieff does that.

@perplexedmoth 3 года назад

@@dekz8 to give some context: Gurdjieff talks about the structure of the mind, and the multiple thought processes going on in there. And he recommends techniques to understand them in a meta thinking way. It doesn't tell anyone to stop thinking, or meditate in isolation from real life. Their exercises are practical and technical for which you don't need to be secluded from the social life. And as for suffering, one of Gurdjieff's classic ideas is this: there are only two kinds of suffering: either you suffer unconsciously, or consciously. He suggests working on the latter, i.e. "conscious suffering" with a process of meta thinking (called self remembering). And to address others in the main comments, the group work is recommended because of getting feedback from others in your "project". It's a matter of practical benefit. Working on a project alone will take a lot more time and possibly fail as opposed to working in a group of fellows. That aside groups are potentially risky, because of the fallible human factor. It is best to study what Gurdjieff produced himself to understand what he meant.

@Sumalia 9 лет назад

You're not the reader, you're the book!

@Noor-jw2tn 5 лет назад

You are not the dancer but the dance. :)

@omalone1169 5 лет назад

@@ruzickaw you are not the valley you are the path

@sanathansatya1667 6 месяцев назад

Reading other books is a futile attempt to understand your book. Other books only help to know how they read their own books. Take clues to get into you the book unique to you individually, but the final page is the same as all other books.

@thanislausm4288 5 месяцев назад

YOU ARE THE BOOK AND THE READER TOO. BOTH.

@johnnieo66 6 лет назад

I was born into and grew up in the "Gurdjieff Group" in short I would say the teachings are an invaluable tool for self discovery, there are many people in the group that get this, & there are many people that don't . These people make themselves known pretty quickly through their behavior , As with any group if you do join, which I never did officially as I was turned off by all of the egomaniacs using the group as a safe harbor, upon further inspection if it's uncomfortable , you can leave. If you choose to continue your quest for self-fullness, then it was a stepping stone, but the work lives in the hearts and minds of many whether they call it the "Work" or no. The work is , in my opinion essentially about discovering the limits of your humanity. Humanity and existence is a gift that is a curse, or vice versa. This "Work" is one of many tools given to us to use for this purpose of self discovery.

@thevitruvianman9781 4 года назад

Gurdjieff teachings, are the most ancient and radical way to revolutionalise the consciousness, many are called few are chosen, what exactly did you do with his teachings? Did you continue your bad behaviour? Did you continue wasting your sexual energy? etc, the problem is usually not the teachings, but us.

@AL_THOMAS_777 Год назад

@spinozasdreams ? ? ? This is EXACTLY the description of our "leaders/politicians" !!!

@unkleskratch 8 лет назад

'My dharma (doctrine) is a raft. You use it to cross the river. When you reach the other side, you leave the raft behind for the next traveller- you don't take it with you.'

@jlmur54 2 года назад

Good point, or reference. And isn’t the definition of the word dharma more like “method” rather than the more western (?) words “doctrine”? And some use the word “law”.

@jiyujizai 5 лет назад

動く彼を見るのは感動する。

@Trebia217BC 9 лет назад

I have worked with 7 people who were with Gurdjieff in Paris: George and Mary Cornelius (several work weekends), Pierre and Vivian Elliott (9 month and 4 month course) , Madame Stavely (one work weekend) Lord Pentland and Paul Renard (several times in CA and Oregon). Most or all are dead I believe. Paul Renard chain smoked Gauloises which did not make a lot of sense to me. Good luck to you if you think you will become man #5. Maybe you will. I did get a lot of benefit with the decision exercise which I expanded and turned into 3 masters degrees. Best of luck. I am not expecting anything more. Cant jump over your own knees. For me it created a lot of fragmentation but I know many people that it has helped. The Foundation people always treated me as an outsider in the 2+ years I worked with them. Then again it may have just been my choice in deodorant. Peace and Blessings

@go12147 9 лет назад

+William Dunlap .. 'From order to disorder' K's first reaction here.. Follow your own sense dont look back.

@go12147 9 лет назад

@W.Dunlap: 'Being treated as an outsider' has more than one side. 1) Workleaders use it a) as a test + to make you remember yourself and/or b) a way to feel superior, that is 2) then immitated by the lower ranks among each other. This 'climate' is to any extend present in all G-groups worldwide and derived from G's instructions .. 'Identification with the Master' plays another role in this complex situation plus a vortex of phenomena around efforts of selfremembering. Then 3) what I perceived is: in case one shows the least form of doubt in the ideas, one mirrors that doubt in the others, touching a certain fear of 'not belonging' plus a strengthening of the belief, which is what you 'get back' as being treated as an outsider. In general any belief is based on 'fear of doubt'.

@colincaissie4044 8 лет назад

+William Dunlap God bless George and Mary. Oh, to be man #4 at least once a day....

@roberthoogenboom4429 8 лет назад

I need a permanent aim. I need no longer be dominated by one centre, the body, the feelings or the mind. Most of all, I need to be on the way to having "died" - seen my chief feature and no longer be completely in the grip of false personality. All of this requires prolonged work in a school, led by a genuine teacher, a higher man. A man number four is in all other respects an ordinary man.

@go12147 8 лет назад

permanent aim is embroidred in life rob ... it IS you

@wesleytaller1661 9 лет назад

is there an original version without comments?

@KFoundation 9 лет назад

+wesley taller Hi Wesley, What do you mean by original version without comments? This extract is taken from a Question & Answer meeting held in Brockwood Park in 1980. The full-length video can be viewed for free here: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-7p7lx-D1KOQ.html It can be purchased as a digital download at: store.jkrishnamurti.org/Krishnamurti-Talks-Questions-and-Answers-Meeting-2-p/br80q2_v.htm ...and as DVD disc here: store.kfoundation.org/video/public-meetings/2nd-question-answer-meeting-2 Hope this helps

@florentinabeta8363 8 лет назад

J. Krishnamurti - Official Channel h

@nourslimane571 7 лет назад

the comments show how stupid we are , most of the commentators not understand what krishnamurti said and they don't even knew j.k teaching , so i hope you change the world with your silly groups

@alexandrasavtchenko1962 4 месяца назад

the author of that question was probably not a very attentive reader of Gurdjieff, since Girdgieff explicitly said that to want to help others is a very confused and wrong goal. The only possible thing to try to attain is to know oneself, to be master of oneself-which is also Krishnamurti's answer here.

@roninson7375 5 лет назад

The word alone means all one...

@vasileioschatzikos7974 Год назад

I watched this very carefully, and I'm almost certain that Krishnamurti is not familiar at all with Gurdjieff's teaching. There is nothing wrong with it, but, in terms of reliability, it seems vague and disorienting when one tries to comment on the unknown.

@SamFreedom 4 года назад

"The whole history of mankind is within us." I used to nod at things like that but do i really understand it? Or does it just sound good somehow?

@SamFreedom 4 года назад

@Evel_Knievel In order to engage in your "first aim", they already have to have an aim that would include the need for such things. So your "first aim" is not the first aim. And, "as above, so below" refers to the concentric universe. The cellular world is below the human world and the starry world is above it. So, as an example, the starry worlds have the laws that govern them but they are not governed by human and cellular worlds. The human world is governed by laws that include the ones governing the starry worlds then also laws that are unique to the human world. The cellular is under laws of both human and starry worlds plus laws unique to the cellular world. So we can learn some things better by looking to the starry world, some things better by observing our human world, and some things better by observing the cellular.

@SamFreedom 4 года назад

@Evel_Knievel by laws, i mean that forces such as gravity, impinge on both the starry universe, the human universe, the cell universe, etc.. Yet guilt is felt on the human universe, the cellular universe, etc., but guilt does not impinge on the starry universe.

@cosmosapien597 4 года назад

Why did you nod when you didn't know the truth of it? And why still you are wondering whether it just sounds good? Just look whether it's true rather than guessing. Pay attention.

@waldek32 6 месяцев назад

9 moths later its just the same feeling. No power, no essence no understanding of Gurdijefs teachings

@cosmosapien597 4 года назад

The way people listen to JK, they can also listen to someone else if they feel like.

@luisantonio8351 6 лет назад

I understand that you can have a meeting with some group to develop ideas but not be dependent on that particular group otherwise he could not have people listening to him all the time or else he would be denying his own words.

@fourtwentythree 6 месяцев назад

I love how myman reads the questions and is like ‘cmon with this bull’ 😅

@zuzannavee9558 2 года назад

This is clear and to the point. Beautiful and timely.

@dhruvcharan396 8 лет назад

Look at the desperation of Krishnamurti at 6:42. Thank you guys to put this video here.

@jackmoores5209 7 лет назад

Jesus said, "If those who lead you say to you, 'See, the kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the kingdom is inside of you, and it is outside of you. When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty." Jiddu with his higher conscious thought spoke many teachings of Jesus.

@CT2507 5 лет назад

yea...haha. desperation is a good work for his dumb face.

@markmusic5303 Год назад

Whatever he is speaking about is definitely not about Gurdjieff's group because it's not about those things at all. It is about real work on oneself. And this man looks way too serious and sorrow. He could use some Gurdjieff work 😅

@iPlay_Violin 10 месяцев назад

The part was something great.

@iPlay_Violin 10 месяцев назад

Last part

@magpiecity 4 года назад

I am only investigating, you see

@alastairashford7919 3 года назад

He seems to be on an ego trip - Krishnamurti, I mean - and unable to grasp the meaning of Gurdjieff's work. He dismisses anyone working in a community with others as part of a sect or a cult - on the contrary, it is a way of working with others to raise the level of humanity.

@flacaramytube 4 года назад

Please try to understand the answer. No comparing K with G

@TheRealSlobo 9 лет назад

He disappointedme with this answer.He started of very good but continued with obvious defensive mechanism to his teaching....The guy asked amazing question.The answer was suppose to be simply.One should follow no dogmas nor doctrines but strive to be independent of teachers..But till this day should absorb only the essence from whoever can help on the path of the truth and in the meanwhile do not get stuck in Dogmas or belief systems

@MrFabiomassid 9 лет назад

So you are here looking to be pleased that he thinks like you do and you're disappointed because he doesn't... Interesting

@TheRealSlobo 9 лет назад

MrFabiomassid ummm.i cant connect that with what i said . elaborate?

@Wrongslide 9 лет назад

Slobodan Dzikoski so you are the scholar? O great one!

@uniquebunnie333 9 лет назад

Thank God, he disappointed you.

@TheRealSlobo 9 лет назад

i dunno why you guys are getting so upset.I have listened and read everything thi marvelous man has said..But i also have read Gurdjieff and i understand his answer but i wanted him to be more universal in his answer.if you dont understand what i am saying there is no need for hate.,this man teaches only love..if you ever learned anything from him than you would have tried to at least feel compassion for me

@AZ-mq8oi 6 лет назад

He's most definitely not being honest enough in the way he answered this particular question. Was it so difficult to say (just like Gurdjieff) I do not know? Gurdjieff the most evolved of the two said that I believe on more than one occasion.

@CT2507 5 лет назад

when u are invested in the ego of the authoritarian teacher, it can be almost impossible to say "i do not know".

@quaoarangela4923 4 года назад

Why do people laugh ? Because of their ignorance of Gurdieff and his teaching. Krishnamurti shows by his response that he is back on the way to Co-birth ... As guru he should be humble in front of Master Gurdjieff ...

@fishfire_2999 4 года назад

Yes

@ronofthesea5953 2 года назад

So, that's a "no" then?

@shubhamvichare1658 5 лет назад

The word "alone" means "all one".

@omalone1169 5 лет назад

I had not processed that since Ibsen

@omalone1169 5 лет назад

Have you seen the film by your name

@shubhamvichare1658 5 лет назад

@@omalone1169 yea long ago

@earthmoon123 3 года назад

It's like assisting here to fanatical supporters talking about their favourite football clubs. Who's better Ronaldo or Messi? 😂😂😂😂

@alexandersimonoff3894 6 лет назад

😎🎈

@MartinLassViolinist 8 лет назад

A very shallow answer, prefaced with spiritual arrogance and ridicule. And this is a spiritual man? Having been a loner himself, he can have no comprehension of the necessity of working with others in a group situation guided by somebody who has already walked along the path we wish to walk. And the contradiction in his attitude when we tells us that we need no guide, teacher, or other is that he deems to sit before others, as a guru, and tell us what is what rather than giving us a way to discover truths for ourselves. He is no better than organised religions. This is the difference between him and the real teaching of Gurdjieff's Work.

@CT2507 8 лет назад

Krishnamurti was just a pretentious philosopher who, because of intellectual vanity, wanted to give the appearance of being more than that.

@urkgurgle 7 лет назад

This is my opinion only, but having followed a solitary path for most of my life, i have found there are many levels of awakening, and for some of the early ones, a group to support the individual on their journey may be helpful. I am confident that there comes a point where no one can help you, and in fact, YOU can no longer journey, as the individual must fade away to be replaced by a higher collective consciousness.

@stinkleaf 6 лет назад

It amazes me even when a man rejects the label of a guru and authority can't dodge ignorant judgments as yours. You are full of judgment with little integrity.

@LucHeuer 6 лет назад

No matter how much of a loner one thinks one is or wants to be, we are all part of groups and identify with them at least on a subconscious level. When one travels extensively alone, this becomes readily apparent as it was with G.

@KKKK-jc5tw 6 лет назад

What about the BARAKA.....out of a group,we cant do nothing ....at least you aré a man Number 4....

@AYAHUASCAPSY Год назад

He didn't answer the question whom asked, they is limit resonate between this 2 questions.

@allenwolf3126 7 лет назад

He's got no clue what he is talking about or who he's talking about

@kundaliniairport 5 лет назад

Oh boy.. When your stupid, only the one's around you have to suffer. So, for God's sake... SHUT UP!!

@mcnowski 5 лет назад

I think Allen Wolf brings up a valid point, Ive been reading Krishnanurti for almost 20 years and he really says nothing, I feel there is no substance to any of it, he just talks in circles drawing people in with vague parables about oneness and beauty, observation without the observer, his "one must go deeper to really hear" nonsense. Sure its great mind food, mildly poetic, but after awhile it shows itself to be basic empty observations. Atleast Gurdijeff's observations were as such that one could actually experience changes within the mind/body/ego complex after meditating on his ideas. Gurdijeff's ideas actually have strength. Not this wishy washy "the reader is the book" relative generalizations that any 16 year old taking mushrooms has figured out.@@kundaliniairport

@CT2507 5 лет назад

@@kundaliniairport pff... its true though. Krishnamurti was a fool.

@5xing8gua 4 года назад

In one of his books Gurdjieff wrote he find fulfillment in his own dreams about being some one special which he draw from some dedicated to astrology conman. Gurdjieff also teach his students to not identify with any thing and any body (including "own" physical, mental and other "bodies"). Now one pretending to be deaf student who does not listen to his teacher dare to asks idiotic question without intention or capability (or both) to listed. What JK should do to such idiot? Right! He loves him no matter how deaf he is...

@majesticnature8893 6 лет назад

Fettos sandim :)

@Dani68ABminus 9 лет назад

it is being tied to anything, whether it's a Gurdjeff group or any other, whether it's what's written in a book or heard in a speech that I always see as a detractor. We need to see all, take in all, without becoming anything. Once you name yourself, you start to loose the detachment you need to see. Everyone has a piece of the puzzle, Gurdjeff does too, but if you focus on him, if you identify with his work, you collaps the wave of all the other possibilities of seeing. Maybe that's what he meant.

@Citizen-gj6lr 9 лет назад

+Dani68ABminus You seem to start out with the premise that the choice is between unlimited learning and learning limited by a group. In my experience the choice is more likely between being aimless or flitting from one thing to another and being focused and supported by the group/sect/book. Nothing is stopping me from moving on if I find a better place to learn, focus or evolve. The jk perspective is of someone who himself has the perseverance and focus to self-study, self-evolve etc. This is a perspective typical of people who themselves join groups and perspectives and later decide that the experience is limiting and present the opinion that everyone else should just skip this beginning or intermediate stage of learning and just be their own teacher/master. without acknowledging how they benefited from that very same experience - and I don't know enough of jk history to know if he went through a similar process of elimination. I noticed that people tend to discount what they push away from - what they eventually reject - as not valuable in their search toward self-actualization. That's silly. Being able to say 'This is NOT it.' is as helpful as when you can say 'This is what is true for me.'

@go12147 9 лет назад

+Citizen 26079 < I'm sorry not to go into your valuable contribution directly, but thanks for what you write ... So what is truth? > JK starts out here with the suggestive words: 'From order to disorder .. JK's life has been described as (well as is) unprecedented. He was forced (and imo abused) as a 6 year-old to become a worldteacher, even the promised one from (the many) scriptures. In 1926 at the age of 31 (- 6 = 25!), he rejected this role unanounced completely, right in front of his .. 'abusers' (MY term). It happened in The Netherlands during a - for his mission organised camp. What a sight that must have been! Also N.B: do not be mistaken about his awareness on many issues including the ones at stake in this video. A man with a high level of Initiation (read f.i. the biography by Mary Lutyens, The Years of Awakening). From order to disorder (and this relates to the G-work overall). In short I from experience, see it like this: Gurdjieff's central doctrine is his keshdjan-concept-of-the-soul. Topcontroversial stuff. After 15 - 25 years of living with the G-family in my perspective, simply a complex and viscious untruth ... or to any extend dangerously conscious lie. G. himself called his way the way against God, for reasons identified himself with Beelzebub and in his later years proclaimed himself Friend of God. All this and much more he took with him October 1949. This is a conclusive as well very SHORT contribution to this loaded discussion.

@go12147 9 лет назад

NB: Coincidence or not: Whatever I tried, the following odd sequence: &#39 OR 160; .. seemingly at random, kept appearing in my texts while posting it without. Also words have been deleted. Try to read over these.

@Citizen-gj6lr 9 лет назад

+Hans van Mourik Hello Hans. When I wrote 'This is true for me.' and you in turn ask 'So what is truth?', I have to first step back and point out that in the context I address, I speak to the functional and personal truth of self-actualization. In my experience self-actualization is a point where a substantial number of experiences and insights become meaningful in aiding a person in a major step in their evolution or some task that is also meaningful to them. This point often reconciles seeming contradictions and may give new and positive meaning to what may have been negative and painful experiences. What also may be present is a feeling of grace, acceptance and compassion, as what we may have judged as wasteful or a mistake, acquires a meaning in the larger context. So the 'true' to which I refer is the true of 'true course'. Personally I've found more utility in learning to deal with uncertainty, rather than rely on a larger truth. I find myself now taking small bites of Gurdijeff's work and seeing if I can make them work for me. So far, for example, the work with sensations in the body has already yielded results. I don't know that I will ever reach a point where I might find application for something like Gurdijeffs 'central doctrine' .

@go12147 9 лет назад

+Citizen 26079 This is a very respectful approach. Thank you. In my own case there was an absolute hunger to understand issues completely before starting at all. This is in a way foolish as I have understood along the way, having been in 10 schools I have seen a lot and might even write it down at some later point. Coming back to JK's answer I would still like to point on his position as worldteacher as well as his deep realisation. Having in his presence 3 times I remember very well. Also topmembers of the G-foundation were present at his feet. G's central doctrine is tied to a specific belief, that is accepted too blindly as truth by the majority of his fans. A debate about this, that I consider to be of deep importance, is a hazardous undertaking and can in fact not safely be done in this context here.

@rudisarasa4724 3 года назад

Whatever groups which help you to understand who you really are, is ok for you, even the surfing group.

@AL_THOMAS_777 Год назад

🙌 👏 🙏 🤝 👍

@the_futherone8058 7 лет назад

I liked his answer. Although he doesn't even need to know how such group operates to answer this question... if you don't know and have the knowledge of your question about gurdjieff's group is helpful to you or not as an asker, you probably didn't understand the first rule of knowledge. true knowledge only comes from oneself, not from outside. Since if you ask him such question, he asks you back that why depend on me to answer this or depend on their group to be help people? because he knows only oneself can know the answer and yet he dares to ask this, and yet I see everybody is disappointed with him with in comments section. Maybe such disappointment comes from similar expectations that you need to know the answer from someone besides oneself. Which makes people question and disappoint more because they don't know yet that only oneself can answer such question. Depend on no one, this is like the first rule. trying to understand and trying to gain knowledge is literally means depend on nothing but your knowledge. otherwise you learn and understand nothing. oneself knows what to do, how to do it, what is right and wrong, from birth, yet not if you don't understand you need to be independent.

@kayumochi 9 лет назад

K would have answered the same had he been asked about being a member of a local Zen sangha or the Red Cross. Some here seem to think he was attacking Gurdjieff.

@Noor-jw2tn 5 лет назад

I doubt very much that he was attacking anyone.

@imondtitanic 4 года назад

he was not attacking anyone. Why assume and contribute to ignorance and gossip/

@adekale 3 года назад

Maybe not attacking but a sort of criticising...

@darylhill9400 3 года назад

Forget about G Listen to the message

@robertking7126 3 года назад

Identification. All these Gurdjieff people reacting like Chelsea supporters.

@rosamagrimalt1504 4 года назад

The gurdjieff's method is incomparable...is the most important revealed secret to humans : "remember oneself ". No body ever talked about this, at least so clear explained! Krishnamurti talked beautiful, but taught nothing! 👎

@serousetrick 3 года назад

Every guru was speaking about “remembering itself”. Gurdjieff was the only one to create a teachings around that, teachings for a modern man. The most of other gurus were creating religions around their expirience. Modern man doesn’t need a religion, modern man needs more practical thing as a method for remembering itself. I couldn’t remember, but maybe those were words of Gurdjieff.

@dnail 3 года назад

I agree.

@darylhill9400 3 года назад

Perhaps you’re not hearing

@chickenlover657 11 месяцев назад

@@serousetrick They were not.

@Veluvian 7 лет назад

He is just answering to the simple question. A question of a man who really didn't undestand Gurdjieff's work. If his aim was helping the others he really forgot something of a significant importance - helping himself/herself first. The Fourth Way actually never belonged to a particularly religious or a philosophical group. But it really requires strong discipline which alone is almost impossible to achieve. Krisnamurti is still simple and amazing, but he and Gurdjieff had different purpose I think, because Gurdjieff's aim was to awaken western people sleep which is much much difficult mission. Answers like this is comfortable for everybody - being a modern hippie.

@rosamagrimalt1504 4 года назад

You cannot learn with that attitude!

@rosamagrimalt1504 4 года назад

Absolutely. I agree! 😮

@kennyguzman5470 4 года назад

Great point

@Hrodric 4 года назад

Evel_Knievel true, everyone wants to be told

@ZebraGoat 4 года назад

@Evel_Knievel If you can manage to guide yourself, that is good. But many people get stuck in recurring loops due to their own limited view, so sometimes it is good to have a teacher or a spiritual friend around to keep us true to our aims.

@sarasa12347 4 года назад

To me, his answer is not in conflict with G's system at all. Both K and G were teachers of humanity. Two lovely beings.

@MrBeygi 9 лет назад

if there is a problem is on who made the question not in Krishnamurti ,not in Gurdjieff

@CT2507 5 лет назад

lol...of course Krishnamurti could never tell an ignorant thing or pretend he was wiser than he was in fact. so the fault is with the one who made the question. cause u never put questions to a high and mighty illustrious wise and holy sage as Krishnamurti. :)

@Hrodric 4 года назад

omid beygi true, people should Watch it again, because they seem to have Listened to a complete different video

@jackmoores5209 7 лет назад

I found his conversations with Dr. Anderson very inspiring and quite unique. What really was beautiful was how Dr. Anderson would turn around teachings from the Bible from a different perspective and they would think nothing of it.And the truth is it is how it should be interpreted.

@anishbhattacharya460 5 лет назад

Jiddu and gurdjieff thinking is exactly same. Both critised traditions, religious and spiritual dogmas, guru cult, imitations, comparisons, to follow anyone, etc etc. In his book baalzebub tales to his grandson gurdjieff shows exactly like jiddu that all the spiritual tradions are merely repetition of past else nothing and etc etc . But again we people again take it in a different point of view very strange. They talked about life which is a fact. But we made it into opinion.

@abhishekkj3662 6 лет назад

i believe everything has its own place..everything contributes to a man's transformation. one does not need help, or a guru in its right sense, only when one has gone through all those and has realized truth is something to be found out all by himself. A master or a Guru can show you the way. the problem arises only when the so called disciple calls himself by that name and gets attached to the Guru. Look at what k is doing ...speaking technically, he is a Guru (dispeller of darkness) but he does not want the attachment and authority budding in and thus he stays away from all such names. in his talks, i have listened k thrashing Gurus etc, but what really is a Guru? he has never gone into that question deeply , he just plays with it on the surface and concludes Gurus are authority figures....which may be true nowadays but it was not so always in the history....There is no difference between a true Guru and truth itself, but attachment is the problem...if one is really interested in the problem , he would listen to a Guru and move on....but there are k's "followers" who are listening to him from 40 years.....they think they are not following but they have fallen into the trap despite k's warnings....in a bid to de-condition the minds polluted by modern Gurus (who arent actually ), K has conditioned his listeners unknowingly ... young Krishnamurti was different ...much different , he would speak directly and now he is too conservative, may be rightly so...

@torstenlange5939 4 года назад

He's not answering the question. Living only for yourself, despising any collective idea, means ignoring human nature and that is not wise at all. Everybody self-reflecting alone is not a leading anywhere - JK didn't think through this.

@sunnys1579 6 лет назад

See all this comments and you will realize how our judgmental thinking mind works never goes jobless. Jk is putting it direct the truth, until and unless you know yourself how can truth appear. Only U can know U. For that dhyan awareness and just U r needed nothing else, since nobody in this universe can know "U" but Urself. How can you carry others there in your deepest core, where only u is all there is. No method no tools no techniques can help reach the core, only pure awareness still pure silence witnessing is core. Its simple method less, people r given methods to temporary stop monkey mind to have first glimpse of awareness. But if you r courageous, u can be aware without any help whoever it maybe. Even an enlightened being cannot help u, only u can enter Urself . That's the reality, accept it and you r just there. Dont let your ego your conditioning hamper , find the root source who is this me, ..

@AL_THOMAS_777 Год назад

🙌 👏 🙏 🤝 👍 So true !! Only WE can know what is good for US. Okay - the masses are always w r o n g (Seneca) so they are utterly misleaded (85 % hate their jobs/lives. Soooooooo mad/bad/sad !!) So yes, only some NOBLE FEW are capable to live truly happy satisfiying lives on theis own (IMHO) Only 1,5-5 % percent I think (The chosen ones?) What do YOU think about ?

@esratruxillo1976 8 лет назад

a lot of wisecrying would say gurdjieff. identified with self expectations. gurdjieff veneered all religions and remarkable men. beyond man no. 4.

@michalinaweld2628 8 лет назад

I was a member of G's group for many years and I highly value this Master. But I must agree with Krishnamurti's point - he makes a valid point that men search for outside gurus and ways to enlightenment when they should be searching within. He rightly notes that a member of a group who just licked a bit of a second hand knowledge thinks he can help the world. (Inflation?) The Way has to be made within - with inner or outer guru.

@jackmoores5209 7 лет назад

Jesus said, "If those who lead you say to you, 'See, the kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the kingdom is inside of you, and it is outside of you. When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty." Higher consciousness is attainable by all who seek it.

@AZ-mq8oi 6 лет назад

Michalina Weld did you not noticed how he jk struggled with not just the question but in answering honestly with an I do not know...? Gurdjieff is the man. I like jk too but he flunked big time here. I mean a man with less of an ego would've been more honest.

@AZ-mq8oi 6 лет назад

Michalina Weld what is your background? Because our sincerity is dependent on how we dealt with our past. And joining a group may have brought certain issues to the fore.

@CT2507 5 лет назад

both u and Krishnamurti are contradicting yourselves. sure the way is within and our own Self is our true guru. but until we make that realization our own, and outside guru is necessary. everything u know and everything Krishnamurti knew u have learned from others before u.

@kennyguzman5470 4 года назад

@@AZ-mq8oi and i respect jk work too but the "im glad u come here year after year i would too" part was cringe worthy

@akbaxb165 7 лет назад

Many people are waiting for a messiah. Why not each person become a messiah?

@CT2507 5 лет назад

they...that's a good idea.

@MrNiceHk 4 года назад

People can barley talk to each other let alone be real with themselves or the small matter of becoming a messiah

@devonseamoor Год назад

I´m moving closer and closer to work in the bright daylight of normal daily life in all colours and ways, while I´m being a light onto myself, so that I can see what motivates me, and what tries to keep me in confusion or illusions that don´t work. Observing, shining my light on all that. No artificial tinkering with nature.

@yingyang1008 2 года назад

I feel like humanity's 'tragic situation' can be defined as not being aware that there are stairs to climb - by being kept in a state of ignorance, probably deliberately Gurus, psychedelic's, religion, etc... can help you become aware of the existence of this staircase But after that, we are surely alone on our journey.....

@linadocarmo 2 года назад

If you breath conscious y will never alone

@AL_THOMAS_777 Год назад

NO ONE I know can handle this loneliness . . . they are all searching desperately for mothers / nannies (Gurus) !!!

@wernertrptube 8 лет назад

Yes I can help others to disorder.I'm a great disorder specialist.

@AL_THOMAS_777 Год назад

😁

@bozolazic 9 лет назад

O' Great Spirit whose voice I hear in the winds, I come to you as one of your many children. I need your strength and your wisdom. Make me strong not to be superior to my brother, but to be able to fight my greatest enemy: "Myself" ~Chief Dan George . Many people try to avoid using the word 'I', to show or practice humility.The consequence of this is to fixate them upon the concept of 'I'.They get the reverse effect originally intended. What is important is to know which 'I' is involved in any act or statement.This comes only through the experience of the various 'I's in a person. -Idries Shah

@go12147 9 лет назад

Mulla Nasrudin Krishna to Arjuna BhagavadGita 18:66 Abandon all types of lesser dharma (lesser paths). Come and simply surrender unto Me alone! I will surely deliver you from all demeritorious reactions. Do not fear.

@kennyguzman5470 4 года назад

💯🎯

@Avicena-tf5uj 5 лет назад

Weak teacher. He may be helpful for many, not for all.

@Hrodric 4 года назад

Arya viejo he’s not a teacher, he’s just the speaker duhhhhhh

@zelfkennisnu 4 года назад

I don't think Krishnamurti did understand the question... The question is: is it a good idea to join a study group in order to understand my mind and spirit in a better way? YES IT IS!!! Because we have to 'pass' our psychology, and because we are not used to do that, we need a clear description 'how to do' such thing. And f.i. Gurdjieff groups are a very good possibility to learn more about your psychological conditioning. That gives you the opportunity to become your own inner guru. Than we are not longer dependent to talks like this! :-)

@NoCenterTV 2 года назад

only then u are dependent on the group! understanding of self cannot come from another

@AL_THOMAS_777 Год назад

@@NoCenterTV Psssssssssssssssst 😁

@TomSchultzMusic 10 лет назад

In many cases he showed special insight but in this case, he demonstrated a lack of understanding.

@go12147 9 лет назад

Tom Schultz The lack is on the side of the Gurdjieff fanclub, that is so identified with this man's life that they cannot 'step out of the hypnotic circle' ... G produced a beliefsystem that is based on a materialistic perspective and so lacks a true and complete spiritual view. And I donot say all of it is worthless. Besides K. was visited by G's family more than once, knows very well what is at stake here and speaks on this issue in a general and purposely unspecific (so loving) way. In doing so he responsibly refrains from throwing oil-on-the-fire as well as fulfilling his specific 'overall' role as world-teacher.

@omarkayham6352 9 лет назад

Hans van Mourik Hey man. Gurdjieff is much more than that

@go12147 9 лет назад

Omar Kayham: you are telling me, sir. i intensely was 25 years with his direct family and could talk your ears off your head. btw read my comment again (+ objectively if you can).

@omarkayham6352 9 лет назад

Hans van Mourik alright sir. So you were part of the Gurdjieff fanclub? your message shows it. I´m not sure you got it after all this years. And I did read your comment

@go12147 9 лет назад

Omar Kayham i knew 90% for sure how you would react (and it is a bad sign for further communication). tell me how do you even read what i wrote here? i can speak for 2 days + you have no clue whatsoever of what i would be able to convey .. show some unidentified humility and ask me a good question ..

@Noor-jw2tn 5 лет назад

One need do nothing. NOTED, once again. UGH!

@Misslotusification 4 года назад

Except, maybe, have the courage to observe and notice when/how we go astray, deceiving ourselves one more time. Until we do it less and less, out of awareness which brings about change.

@joydevghosh8017 4 года назад

Don't agree or disagree to anything asserted,about unknown truths of life, by anyone including the speaker . This will make one free to look at the things for oneself with an unconditioned mind. I think j k wanted to say this. It may sound as if j k is contradicting himself . But there is no way to avoid this limitation of communication. Indeed it requires tremendous courage and intelligence to be able to stand alone and to be a light to oneself.

@eottoe2001 5 лет назад

No man is an island entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main; if a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as any manner of thy friends or of thine own were; any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind. And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.

@omalone1169 5 лет назад

The strongest man in the world is he who stands more alone

@AL_THOMAS_777 Год назад

@@omalone1169 "Seclusion and contempt are the prerogative of the strong!"

@Saj170673 3 года назад

When sat down to eat , on the floor Middle Eastern style , the saying goes , if after finishing eating you find a grain of rice on the eating mat , pick it up and eat it , it is yours forever.

@acesjeff 7 лет назад

Of course he's against groups. Duh. Look what the TS did to him. I disagree with him though. You can be part of a group and not "name yourself" and still help others. I've learned so much from the TS, Gurdjieff's work, Samael Aun Weor and the modern Gnostics as well as Rudolf Steiner. I claim no sect. To understand JK's perceived "smugness, denigration, disappointment", or whatever you want to call it, you should understand his early life. He's still a human.

@Hrodric 4 года назад

RevNowWhileWeCan he denies anything that the Theosophical society told him, You can read anything you like or want but you have to see through it and not get attached to any of it. He never spoke about anything as esoteric at all

@Hrodric 4 года назад

RevNowWhileWeCan The name isn’t the thing, so you can read all the truth if you want, unless it comes from your understanding, it’s just words.that was always his point

@jlmur54 2 года назад

Good points. In reading the comments, I replied to somebody that he sounds human. And you seem to have brought some context to the situation. I appreciate that.

@akshayborgaonkar1581 3 года назад

K has always answered or talked each word that nobody could get caught in any illusion. Though he could talk more mysterious ways but he never did it.

@jiyujizai 2 года назад

🤔💙🌸🌱😀

@lilaveil 2 года назад

Because we are social beings and its natural to want to be loved and to belong and to be encouraged

@honestyfenix530 8 лет назад

"Can't you stand on your own? Etc." Well, I am humble enough to admit that I cannot stand on my own and although I BELONG TO no group, I do look for and value the assistance of others because I am certainly not a wise person and realizing this, I do try to learn from others. So yes, I do need others to stand firm AND to innerly grow, and I admit it. This K seems to be talking to people who ALREADY ARE wise, loving, wonderful. If his admirers believe they already ARE like that, good for them (feeds the Ego well). I'm certainly not there at this point.

@Hrodric 4 года назад

Honesty Fenix You are blocking yourself sir

@jlmur54 2 года назад

Sounds like your ego was offended. ; )

@aanando Год назад

Escape in the name of spirituality is common. Whatever one shall get from other-including from one's own thoughts and theories-may be at best be comforting but truth. Is truth an acquistion? Or that which IS, absence of illusions? If it is, then anything external can 'definitely not' point out your OWN illusions, created by your OWN mind or self, for they(being theories) will add to the illusions you strive to discard.

@baronbullshyster2996 3 месяца назад

Groups are just another ego. If you believe in your group it might give you a feeling of belonging. Which can stop you from actually going the place where the teaching is pointing you to. You can belong in your group of caterpillars 🐛 But you have to become a butterfly on your own 🦋 Good luck

@TomSchultzMusic 8 лет назад

Everybody has limitations. K asks some good questions in this clip, but they aren't real questions- only rhetorical. He's speaking from his head and the answers he supplies are only associative - not from a deep understanding. I wonder if anyone who tried to follow K's teaching, such as it is, has developed anything real in the sense of being, beyond an intellectual or emotional interest.

@colincaissie4044 8 лет назад

+Tom Schultz K did not provide a method of working, as far as I can see.

@istvanheimer1845 7 лет назад

"I wonder if anyone who tried to follow K's teaching, such as it is, has developed anything real in the sense of being"... - No, I always felt him shallow, just reading his short book.

@flaxflame 6 лет назад

He didn´t intend that you or anyone else should "follow" him. That´s the main point of his teachings.

@sharpvonl201 2 года назад

then that is their fault. K is a philosopher, he asks questions. He gets you thinking for yourself. He isn't trying to develop you. He's shining a light on you telling you that you have everything you need, that you have power.

@wernertrptube 8 лет назад

funny joke of the fog-talker:A Gurdjieff Group from order to disorder.

@her26mlifecount21 4 года назад

Be the book and not the reader.....profound statement

@360eagleeye4 3 года назад

Such a pure message with eternal truth. Thank you for the question and thank you for the answer.

@rossboucher3413 2 года назад

What was the message? Did I miss it?

@AL_THOMAS_777 Год назад

@@rossboucher3413 The most important message is: "The map is NOT the landscape." !!!

@Misslotusification 4 года назад

"You're not the reader, you are the book." J. K.

@onceuponthecross1 6 лет назад

K had always been very dogmatic about groups.

@best-ty6xt 4 года назад

So why they belong to j krishamurti? is it not absurd?

@Hrodric 4 года назад

That’s the tragedy. K, Pointed that out. listen to it again.

@garyhobbins4746 4 месяца назад

Why would a person want to be a member of a group who abuses them, especially covertly abuses them? Koan: WORDS ARE TRAPS

@vladvlog9677 Месяц назад

Well said. Met many lost people seduced and deluded by this group.

@johnslaymaker 8 месяцев назад

This is horrible. He is arguing for alienation. Precisely the evil that afflicts us more every passing year, in part b/c of major cultural influencers like himself. We are social beings created/evolved for community over countless generations & are hard-wired for it in every aspect of our biology, all of which he dismisses out of hand. Meanwhile he spent his own life surrounding himself with huge groups of people while shaming others for it. Sad.

@albanyorganics3030 Месяц назад

85 yrs old and he can read the fine print without glasses

@bhartoumsimpleton8214 Год назад

Why is everyone sitting in the room with Krishnamurti. if not to be helped? Why is he holding the talk, if not because he thinks it can help people? What is his understanding of the Gurdjieff work, that he can judge it's aim or content? Why did Krishnamurti say we don't need a teacher, and yet travelled the world year after year (allegedly) holding talks and 'not helping' people? And why could he justify that after being taught for his entire early life, to an extent few have the opportunity to receive. If he is not wishing to help people, why does this clip exist? Gurdjieff never claimed to help people, and he rarely, if ever made clips of his talks, and very rarely to a public audience, like this one. Sri Ramana Maharshi barely opened his mouth, and never travelled, and still affected many people around the world. I like Krishnamurti, but sometimes he could be a hypocrite.

@waldek32 Год назад

Well... sounds like emotional rumbling without answering the question

@JusteSekilfo 4 месяца назад

I don't feel comfortable with the answers this man gives.

@goodbarbenie5477 Год назад

Krisnahmurti had an extraordinary strange elite who followed him... A great spiritual leader, needs no followers or disciples...no clingers. People who love attachments... Gautum Buddha needed no one. "Shiva", said...Be attach to him who is without attachment, hold to him your attachment, then only then will U be able to let go of all your attachments...Hah. Strangely enough the meaning in Sanskrit. Of Lord Shiva, means NO ONE... By gum why hasn't the World learnt this.? Just let go of what U haven't got.! We come into this World we collect sooo much baggage, and yet we leave on leaving all our baggage behind...How strange...Hahaa... We do this only because, our past has sooo much Karma attached to it, as the past is just unfinished business...hah...

@matthewderbes9839 3 года назад

The point is. Gurdjieff was a selfish prick. Use the gifts god gave you to help people.

@udomatthiasdrums5322 2 года назад

love your work!

@peterbroderson6080 Год назад

Amusing how he pokes fun at his own "followers"

@iknownothing0 7 лет назад

I admire the magnetic deep Self worth of people like Gurdjieff and Krisnamurty they achieved their Christ-hood in them for them just notice !

@CT2507 5 лет назад

how do u know Krishnamurit achieved a Christ-hood in himself? he sounds like a fool to me.

@jlmur54 2 года назад

@@CT2507 He sounds human to me.

@CarDyno666 5 месяцев назад

@@CT2507WOW, clever!!!!!!😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

@zyxmyk 6 лет назад

it seems odd he would say you shouldn't try to help others when I assume that's why he devoted his life to getting up and talking to people. that's contradictory.

@bingochoice 4 года назад

not really.."helping others" presumes this person is capable of such..everyone needs to be their own light, "others" cannot do this for you..

@amanakeet 4 года назад

He is against new age people and soccer moms "full of divine love". He is making a simple point, if you "are full of love" you dont *talk* about helping people.

@spiritualanarchist8162 4 года назад

Your comment is so obvious that those who dispute this conradiction don't even see it,.

@cosmosapien597 4 года назад

People want to help others, but they themselves are fragmented, confused. In this state, how will they help? They may create more problems rather than solving. First you need to help yourself.

@Raxados 3 месяца назад

🎉

@TheOzlaw 2 года назад

When you know you become silent.. is this not a language labyrint.. explaining what is the right way. Certain groups, understanding.. look at it. Apodeictic reasoning. Like: History is not in books, but it is here.. you are the book. And the book is telling you the story.. then you are a light unto yourself.

@Synechex Год назад

I am surprised (not really, I suppose) by the number of commenters who misunderstand what he is saying. The tragedy is what nominalism has done to humanity. This is why so many don't know how to 'read' humanity, but still seek the match of another. 'Otherness' is hugely important. There is no 'I' without the 'Not I', making us irreducibly contiguous and continuous with all of mankind, emerging from our embeddedness in the universe. Yes, we are 'second'hand as in 'secondness' (Charles Peirce). One commenter mentioned the danger in naming, which is a key to understanding this. Goethe said "How difficult it is, to refrain from replacing the thing with its sign, to keep the object alive before us instead of killing it with the word". Krishnamurti is pointing to the need for us to recognize that once we understand our relation to the Whole, we will not need to join a group as 'part' of a 'collection of individuals'. But once we understand this, we do want to be around the beauty in the others who also understand. The mountain is not the mountain without the valleys and the sky. It is all One. Once one understands this, one doesn't seek to direct others, only to be in the presence of the others who understand. .... Associating with or promoting a 'collective' of nominalists DOES contribute to fragmentation of the Whole.