Imagine a world where humans freely chose to always respect and take care of each other and the environment, and the scientific knowledge is so advanced that natural disasters and diseases can be predicted and prevented. No wars, no injustice, no damages, no evil. When they say that human beings are created in the image of God I think about this potential of ours.
There is good and there is evil in this world. The good news is that this world is illusive, awake. Many say the same thing, Buddha, Laozi, ancient sage and the Bible.
While yes it is said "man is created in the image of God", man is also an imperfect being, and was never meant to be perfect. If God exists, and even looks like us, that doesn't mean we are carbon copies, aren't we lesser versions then? I mean, I can scan a $100 bill and it looks like a $100 bill, but it isn't a $100 bill and it wouldn't have the value of a $100 bill.
Wrong. Existential Nhilism. There is no afterlife. Our reality, survival of the fittest, Proven! 200 trillion galaxies, each with billions of suns...doesn't care what you want to believe or not. It's not about us. We simply cease to exist. Get it?
Belief in a strictly materialistic Darwinian Evolution ideology leads one to believe, albeit falsely, that there is no Free Will. And if there is no Free Will, then there is no Right and Wrong and no Moral Law. However, this belief is completely contrary to everything that is practiced and observed in nature, humanity, and the cosmos regarding cause and effect. This Darwinian line of reasoning is what led to the atrocities of Hitler, Stalin, Mao, etc and is the hidden, underlying ideology / worldview justifying and directing many countries' domestic and foreign policies to the present.
The "physical world/universe" exists, in large part, due to duality and the interaction and balance of these opposing forces. Light - Dark; North - South, Positive - Negative; Right - Wrong, On - Off, Yin - Yang, 1 - 0, Day - Night, Order - Disorder, Good - Evil, Up - Down, True - False, Male - Female, Hot - Cold, Wave - Particle, etc. is observed to be interwoven within the fabric of the "physical world/universe". Thus, the existence of Good would of necessity require the existence of Evil in the physical world/universe, and vice versa. Moreover, the scientifically confirmed property of duality in the physical world/universe does not preclude the existence of a Prime Observer/Cause.
Evil disproves omnibelevilence, not God. But then the leading question would be: "What is God?" Religion plays a great barrier for anyone to come up with a sound theistic argument. So in the meantime, I 'm quite comfortable as an agnostic atheist.
Good point about the omnibenevolence, at least from the moral perspective of a human being. I think that's got something to do with why the ancients came up with the idea of the Demiurge and all that.
@@andrebrown8969 Thank you for the reply. Interesting, I would not equate the divine with what in 'Western' Culture is commonly meant by the term 'God'. Still, good that it is a personal matter. Be well!
The "physical world/universe" exists, in large part, due to duality and the interaction and balance of these opposing forces. Light - Dark; North - South, Positive - Negative; Right - Wrong, On - Off, Yin - Yang, 1 - 0, Day - Night, Order - Disorder, Good - Evil, Up - Down, True - False, Male - Female, Hot - Cold, Wave - Particle, etc. is observed to be interwoven within the fabric of the "physical world/universe". Thus, the existence of Good would of necessity require the existence of Evil in the physical world/universe, and vice versa. Moreover, the scientifically confirmed property of duality in the physical world/universe does not preclude the existence of a Prime Observer/Cause.
@@yeolee2703 How can God Justify cancer in children? There is a bucket load of questions Christians cant explain. Unless they do Christianity is not even close to trustworthy…. God of the Bible dont deserve a thought. I highly question his existence.
@@Besotted85 I know the feelings of devastation. Peace be with you. Can you grasp the idea of all things when reduced to their root is energy or force? Spirit? Consider, Genesis, "the earth was a void, darkness was over the surface of the deep... ", everything came out of this water of darkness. Water is a force, darkness is a deviation of light. I speak for myself, inside me is a force of darkness. "The good I know, I do not. The evil I shun, I do." Do you experience this struggle within you? Then, you may have a different spirit. My spirit is dark, an angel of Devil. It is difficult to share with you how and what He had done on me that awakened the spirit within. Now I wait, by His Word I trust, He will deal with the darkness Himself and claim back what is His... God is spirit, I am from Him though not of Him for I have deviated. He created this world for His purpose. Be humble, let Him do His will. What that counts is not in the flesh but in the spirit. Whatever grievous encounters you meet with are mere illusions in spirit of truth. But if you allow yourself to be tormented by these, you are in the flesh. The Gospel is good news, may you guided to its truth and out of bondage of this world. If we got closer to truth in wisdom, we are only close but not there. When we come to regard all earthly knowledge and experiences as like grasping the wind, one may be awaken in truth. 2Co 4:18 KJV While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal. His word is of parables and parables. Where understanding is not achievable, try the church. The common posture is, humble. Good for you. I was too proud, I was humbled! Praise the Lord.
I like Swinburne but that comment was loopy to say the least. I think I know what he meant, though. If divine justice exists, punishment for the SS (not to mention Hitler and other senior Nazis) must be worse than anything even Dante could have imagined.
I think he was spot on if you really understand what he meant, the guards will be punished for their sins eternally, the Jews had a hard time for a portion of their lives.
@Black Hair Joining the SS was strictly voluntary. They were even allowed to transfer out of camp duty if they wanted. So no, they weren't simply "following orders."
My dad was born 1928. At the time without information everywhere, church and school having much bigger powers plus the propaganda, my dad really believed that Jews were evil and bad. He didn't think so when he was older but indoctrination made him join "Hitler jugend" and all kinds of stupid things. So I don't blame the average guard. That's what they really believed. But I don't think all guards were "evil". I have no links or specific details but I've heard about many guards that actually were quite human
@@durosempre4470 Don't know how much of a WWII scholar you are, but your synopsis of the situation is just as simplistic as that of Black Hair. In general, the police prior to the Third Reich became the various enforcement arms of that regime, with the more sadistic gravitating toward the SS and the death squads. There's an interesting anecdote in the book "On Killing," by Col. Dave Grossman, where a soldier who refuses to machine gun a line of Jews gets put in the line and murdered along with them. History is no more black and white than the present.
Why do you say Sunday school? Why didn't look into the Bible? God in the Bible is: Creator of all that there is, Eternal (above and beyond time and space), God is Spirit (not physical), Omnipotent, Omnipresent and Omniscient. Such a God is revealed only in the pages of the Bible and, only such a God can create this seemingly infinite universe with all its complexities.
@@KM-leons With all due respect, I'm not sure God as portrayed in the Bible (Old and New Testament) gives a solid idea of God's infinitely complex nature. The world's great religions tend to simplify God into a mythical being that children can comprehend. What we gain in apparent understanding of His nature when its boiled down to the level of young kids, we lose in appreciation of His truly transcendent complex nature.
@@durosempre4470 The attributes of God in the Bible, as given earlier, is sufficiently enough to account for all complexities required for a God a human can conceive in his imagination (and beyond). God created man perfect and good. Man sinned and fell. According to a scientific study the brain power of the best minds is only about forty percent of the one percent, that is 0.40 percent, of the real power. (Sorry, I forgot the reference). Many things in the physical universe is still a puzzle for humans. Quantum world gives him headache. Many things will remain unknown forever, such as the extent of the universe etc. If man cannot understand most the complexities of the physical universe he is living in how can he hope to comprehend the things of the God plane - the Spiritual realm? Jesus said: "I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?" John 3:12 "For now [in this time of imperfection] we see in a mirror dimly [a blurred reflection, a riddle, an enigma], but then [when the time of perfection comes we will see reality] face to face. Now I know in part [just in fragments], but then I will know fully, just as I have been fully known [by God]."Amplified Bible 2:Cor.3:12
@@KM-leons I somewhat agree with you. God is so great, so full of complexities and unknowable paradoxes, that He can hardly be described in the pages of a mere book, no matter how profound.
This just reduces to another "god moves in mysterious ways" argument. But, that is really just an admission that theists have no rational reason for proposing gods in the first place, since they have no idea what it is they are actually proposing.
@@itneeds2bsaid528Yes, but nature isn't civilized. Nature is nature. Humans broke out of raw nature and built a civilization, nature isn't subject to God's rules, there is no "good and evil" for the beasts and the trees. They just exist.
Let's say the simulation hypothesis turns out to be true and our entire universe (or at least the visible part of it) is virtual. The programmers of this matrix wouldn't exactly be deities, but they'd be orders of magnitude more advanced than humans. This wouldn't negate the possibility of a supernatural Supreme Being in overall charge of everything, but it would put the immediate responsibility for "our universe" in the hands of these hypothetical programmers. Within this vast simulation, what we perceive as evil might be the equivalent of extremely complex "what if" scenarios. e.g., What if there was a universe generated in a big bang where carbon-based life developed and eventually became self-aware? What type of civilizations would such creatures build? Would they be good to each other? Hurtful? What would their habitat be like? Would it be stable? Would it experience tremors and volcanic eruptions? Would the inhabitants learn to overcome these disasters while there was still time?
@@DawnHub666 He gets to interview people who are at the top of their respective fields, Even given that, listening to the theistic arguments here, they are much the same and just as bad as the usual stuff one comes across from apologists peddling their products on social media.
It should also be noted that the existence of “free will” is not at all an established fact. It’s much more likely that what we think is “free will” is merely the biochemical computer known as the human brain running numerous unconscious parallel calculations for which the inputs are at best imprecise and therefore the outputs are unknown. This is a far more plausible explanation for the perceived existence of “free will” than some religious claptrap which just asserts things that have little to no material or empirical basis.
It's ourselves we lack awareness of the facts of experience, what we have been taught and regard as true is often contrary to our direct experience. In oneness, all is God nothing excluded. Knowing is God and in this changeless timeless, spaceless, infinity, gets impressed by what is known then expresses as experience. Our hindrance is belief, we don't need it to know ourselves directly.
People tend to excuse authority in the same manner they excuse God. Authority and God are ultimately the same concept, meant to condition people to obey and not ask any questions.
I can’t believe anyone takes these “theologians’” answers seriously. I wonder if these people have had anyone suffer. The detachment in their explanation is chilling.
I agree with you that Plantinga's answers fall short. The Free Will Defense is extremely inadequate. Not only does it not explain all of the evil that is not caused by humans but it also raises a very difficult question for the Christian theist (which Plantinga is.) And that is - what about Heaven? If you're going to affirm that evil is a "necessary evil" so to speak in any world where beings have free will, then you must also accept that there will be evil in Christian Heaven. If not, the only other alternative is to say those who make it to Heaven won't have free will.
I agree with you. Pain is more eloquent and convincing than these arguments. They seem to have overlooked this obvious fact. We’re all strong enough to bear other people's suffering, apparently...
Humanity is responsible for humanity. The fact that children starve to death is on us not on God. We can stop that from happening and noone does anything.
@@dnavas7719 What about disease? Things we can't stop? If I had the power to stop a child from being molested I would use it. That is the difference between me and your god.
Every now and again you have to discipline your kids. You also, sometimes, have to let them make mistakes so they learn. Both feel bad to the child at the time, but you do it because you love them and they will be better off as adults for it.
@@itneeds2bsaid528 That, umm, doesn't work for a god by definition. I can also name you a thousand evil things that are not of free will that they would allow anyway that don't teach anyone anything. Sorry, but that's a very very cheap and shallow answer that isn't really an answer at all. Think more about what you just said. Think hard.
@@itneeds2bsaid528 Yeah right and then when they don't obey and worship you, you send them to your basement to be tortured for eternity. The very definition of loving parents.
What if gods mission was to prove to all entities, the extent of evil we humans are capable of committing. And only when we have performed every abomination possible, would he bring the show to an end.
This is my thinking also. God (Yahweh) has a Long Range plan to, at least, offer eternal life to all sentient beings He made in His image and likeness. Through "Free Will" we have all chosen destructive paths to follow to one degree or another and that is one cause of the EVIL in the world. Because Yahweh is the source and giver of Life (which we received at our birth), He also has the power to give us a re-birth by the means of Resurrection for the purpose of showing those He resurrects the Monumental contrast between His way as shown through His Law (Instruction) and the way humans with free will have gone for thousands of years. Once those "born-again" (resurrected) people see this, the vast majority (maybe all) will exercise their newly enlightened free will to choose the Creator's ways going forward into Eternity. Anything less than that leads to suffering and death as the record of human history has clearly shown.
Everything he said here was thoroughly reprehensible, not to mention irrational. It is amazing the desperate lengths people will go to in order to defend beliefs they have no sensible reason for holding in the first place.
There was no mention of animal suffering in this video. Throughout the history of earth, animal suffering has far exceeded human suffering. What greater good can come from it? Does suffering build the character of animals? Is animal suffering due to their having free will? Will animals be compensated for their suffering in a glorious afterlife?
@@cindyhammack68 what is evil in the 1st place? Because there is freewill; ability to choose. And your choices are good and evil. You will ask, why freewill? Because God don't what robots..
@@daddada2984 I've often wondered not only how we define "good" and "evil". Who made that call. The story of Moses talking to God on the mountain and God gave him the 10 commandments is just that - a story. There is no proof of tablets inscribed by God that tells the world what they shall and shall not do. Yet, through the ages that story has been the basis of our laws. 1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me. To me, this means God is the only one you can worship. Yet there are people that are worshipped for their athletic ability or their performances in music, film and television. Money is worshipped. 2. Thou shall not make unto thee any graven image. Idolatry. Referencing above there are images and figurines made 3. Thou shall not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain. Self-explanatory but, it happens all the time. 4. Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy. Come on, really. Saturday was - and still is - the Sabbath day. Saturday nights are sometimes filled with debauchery. 5. Honor thy father and mother. What if a dad is sexually abusive? 6. Thou shall not kill. So here's where it gets a little messy. People kill every day. Since it's not specific are killing weeds or animals included in that? What about us killing someone because they killed someone? I won't go through the entire list but, my point is that defying any of these commandments makes you evil. So, by that standard is every single person on this earth evil? By modern definition, no. The fluidity of laws and our ability to accept blatant breaking of the commandments means the acts of "evil" are ever-changing. Being ever-changing means there is no real evil. "Evil" is personal perspective and therefore undefined, which begs the question "What is good?" Truly, good and evil is defined by the laws of man and over time these laws are changed or even repealed in entirety. Therefore, any current law may not be so in the future. There are no commandments and there are no laws that are certain. There is no "good" or "evil," it's just existence.
Why does evil have to disprove god? Why can't god just be evil... Why do we attribute the good to god? Like the atheist said... The nature of the world is savage and brutal... Maybe that's the nature of god and goodness is a uniquely human thing... Maybe we are the creators of good.... And we don't need god to be good....
The universe is about balance. There can't be love without hate, beauty without ugliness, happiness without sadness, pleasure without pain, and good without evil.
@@drzecelectric4302 Yes the Alan Watts approach to this was the only way i could make sense of if. The idea of the God that goes to sleep and wakes up as a human. As to say the infinite can't know the finite, that God allows suffering because God does not know suffering. It's interesting in the west being heavily under the influence of christianity and jesus communicating in a way where people would think he's God, son of God..or man. In some cases being incarnate to all these states. Is it that God can only act or think like a human by becoming a human? Is it that God can only know human suffering by being like us in the state of human suffering and limited like us? I wonder, in a sense that's easier because if God is us in the sense that Alan Watts seems to suggest. Then it wouldn't be God who's the allower of the suffering but us in reality. However if you fell asleep and forgot who you were because you didn't want to be alone. You may have forgotten you're really responsible lol. It's interesting to think about but for me it's easier to look at it that way. I also found it interesting the parent who puts the child through a painful surgery for healing. The thing about that is i think the parent thinks less about the idea of causing suffering or evil. They think more about causing health and well being. To the child.. i'm sure it would be painful and seem evil or bad to them. in the idea of no light without dark.. the symetry of the universe. The finite to the infinite. .The causer of things to become to the no cause forever existing universe. The symetry in which these states must exist to exist.
I believe that the lack of empirical evidence disproves God. Any further argument is just entertaining excuses. If a benevolent God existed and cared about us he would not hide from us and keep us guessing if he even existed.
@11:30 "God is omnipotent but he can't..." . You gotta redefine the word omnipotent then, pal. And they call that a philosopher. The worst part is that the host acknowledge that point as valid.
@@En_theo No contradiction. You are thinking absolutely, mathematically, and I don't think God can be reduced to an equation. He is multi-faceted and complex. His power is restrained by His moral character. For example, he can't break his own word. If He says, "I will keep you safe," He can't go against His word later on when He gets mad at someone and destroys your neighborhood. He has the power, but can't use it. There are other examples. If you have a pet, you have the power to hurt it, but you are constrained by your morality that you care for and love your pet. You can't hurt it unjustly, because it would violate your morality.
@@jamese9283 None talked about math, just logic. Logic that you use conveniently (by ignoring some deep reasoning, that is) when it suits you but that I could not use to shine a light on an obvious contradiction. I'm not saying we can understand God, I say that the argument given in the video is not valid.
@@En_theo Yes, I reviewed the video @11:30 and don't agree with Plantinga's reasoning. He seems to be contradicting himself. I would say again, however, that God could be all-powerful, but He decided before creating the universe that He would restrict his power in certain areas.
Three things. First one is human mind equlibrium and the equlibrium constant. People minds are set. And they are working on the base how they were calibrated. If they like simple things they were calibrated badly since satisfied them agresion, seflishness, harmfulness. If they like complicated things they were calibrated well since they are satisfied by improvement, helpfullness, kindness. Depends on the set we achieved some equlibrium i. E. Wars, peace, spaces programs, extermination. Equlibrium depends on all and is represents by constant which ich bigger or smaller. People who have can give and share, people who have nothing can take and need. So they are egoist or altruist. And they are acting depends on their needs since they have to satisfied itself and the needs came from state of mind. Secound is nature equlibrium i. E. entropy and the flow of energy, information, and matter. This state was established and it is as it is. E. G. Food chain, life of the star, chemical reactions, thermodynamics. The third one is spirytuality (pray). Every gods creature needs respect. If we harm sb. We distore it equlibrium by lowering it. So if I stole sth. I am increasing my wealth and my equlibrium state is greater but others is lower. In this process energy is gaineg from and not comes from wrok (du = q-w) . So when we want to equilibrated this state sth. Has to go down and as usaull the punishment (jews in camps) or we can pleased harm. In this conception we have pleasure and sufferness. If people are pleased by e. G. free sex sb. Has to suffer. Sb. Free will i.e. pleasure is acting as a sufferness on other creature (catholic love) . This three thing are mixed together and the world looks like it looks. People conception for world forming depends on stupidity and exploitation not thinking so the free will is greater or lower. Socialism is based not on thinking but punching cutle so the freedom is limited. Capitalism is based mainly on thinking so freedom is greater but every progres cost so we have to deal with human failures. Improvement which satisfied people needs costs. In comunism we have enslavement one by others in Capitalism we have stres and exploitation. Science conquers comforts and satisfied all. If this world has one creator it means that everything is its manifestation on different leves low is evil high is good based on established equlibrium state. So god is not good or bad is equilibrated. The more information is in the system the more ordered it is. Religion (energy comes from pretended good) is needed for simple people which can not reduces its own standard thinking deviation (sin / punishment) and satisfied one of the three equlibrium constant. Science do not punisches science improves (energy from work) and makes action without aggression (human history)and satisfied two constants. God would have created world with protein submision without killing. But here was the reason.
تضمین پایداری وماندکاری در هر چیزی بستگی به قوانین تطابق نیروها بر یکدیگرند و موضوع تنش موقعی پیش می آید که نیروها نسبت به یکدیگر تطابق نداشته باشند. بنابراین زایش دوگانگی در طبعیت ساختار ها از جمله انسان بدلیل ایجاد پتانسیل جنبشی در مخلوقات است. و بودن این امر دوگانگی مانند: خوب و بد ، زشت و زیبا ، تاریک و روشن ، سعود و سقوط و غیره سبب ایجاد معنی بین ساختارهای دوگانگی میشود. بنابراین نمایان واکنش های طبیعی و یا غیر طبیعی به دلیل عدم رعایت قوانین تطابق بین ساختارهای دو قطبی میباشد.
Also, St. Paul in the NT, tells us that God created some for destruction. Just like when Christ who told Judas it was better to have never been born than to have been born and done what he had done. Judas was created for destruction, as are some of you. When you understand that, you understand evil.
If God creates people who are predestined for evil and self-destruction, then he is responsible for their evil actions and their fate. How is it moral to condemn a man from the moment of his conception? The guy never had a chance.
@@redpillfreedom6692 RPF, God is absolutely the creator of everything. So says Isaiah 45:7. He takes full responsibility for creating darkness and light. However, Christ also tells us in the parable of the wheat and tares, that our enemy (Satan) has planted people here amongst those of us who are God's children. So, therefore, God is not the sole author of life on this earth (not according to this parable). It tells us many times that the god of this world is Satan. It could not be clearer. While God is the overall creator, there are other authors (how else could we all be "gods"). Our understanding of the world is limited and we will never understand how this world works or why God has allowed it to be the way it is. What we do know is that God is Good. And whatever he does is good, regardless of what our perception of good is. And it does not matter what the bible school taught us, God has spoken to us so that many of us will hear the truth, but not all. That is exceptionally clear in the Bible.
God is an imaginary being constructed by power-hungry control freaks. They put into your mind that an invisible sky daddy is watching your every move and claim he is never wrong, that way they can justify any atrocity by convincing you that "God commanded it." If God knew beforehand that Hitler, Mao or any other despot would turn out the way they did, then the blood of their victims is also on God's hands.
The existence of evil simply proves that humans have free will They use this free will to be and do evil sometimes. Free will was the great gift God gave us. How can God have created conscious beings without them having free will? They would just be like bits of furniture, not beings at all. The consequence is that many abuse the freedom and creativity they were given by God. So this is what the world is all about, the trial leading to judgement. Evil is the creation of humans.
Ensuring stability and permanence in anything depends on the laws of conformity of forces with each other, and the issue of tension arises when the forces do not conform to each other. Therefore, the birth of duality in the nature of structures, including humans, is due to the creation of kinetic potential in creatures. And the existence of this duality, such as: good and bad, ugly and beautiful, dark and light, rise and fall, etc., creates meaning between the structures of duality. Thus, natural or abnormal reactions are evident due to non-compliance with the laws of convergence between bipolar structures.
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things. Deuteronomy 32 39: "`See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand. Exodus 4: 10: But Moses said to the LORD, "Oh, my Lord, I am not eloquent, either heretofore or since thou hast spoken to thy servant; but I am slow of speech and of tongue." 11: Then the LORD said to him, "Who has made man's mouth? Who makes him dumb, or deaf, or seeing, or blind? Is it not I, the LORD? 12: Now therefore go, and I will be with your mouth and teach you what you shall speak."
So your god is literally an authoritative attention seeker who needs prayers of damaged people who he will purposefully damage so they feel pain. Sad sadistic psychopath.
I think we need to differentiate between nature and perception. The mire sight of wildfire caused by lightning is destruction but it’s signifies transformation. Looking at a lion killing another animal to survive seems evil but looking deeply into the nature of reality, they don’t just kill anything for fun, they kill the young or sick or injured. Death itself happens when change occurs and change occurs every time but the physical termination of the body goes deep into our fear of change and not knowing where it’s leads. Lastly there would be no healing if there’re no sickness(which most of them are caused by humans) and our medical advancement has shown that we can mitigate the effects of sickness. Also Can humans differentiate between Gods supposed evil and human’s evil Cos there’re tons of evil caused by mankind but the blame is pushed to God. Holocaust happened because of the volition of a human not because of God.
Beasts do kill every single specimen, if pray can't defend or run away, regardless of animal's age, gender or disabilities. It just doesn't often happen because all animals take a good care not to fall into deadly traps.
The free will defense is so inadequate on its face. First of all, it doesn't explain all of the other evil, if anything it only explains the evil caused by agents with free will. But then there's the obvious question of -- what about the Christian Heaven? Plantinga affirms that in all worlds where beings have free will there will be at least some evil; is he then also prepared to affirm that there will be some evil in Heaven? Or is he willing to affirm that those who make it to Heaven won't have free will? Something has to give in order to be consistent.
It’s very easy to deal with it. 1) couch it in the context of reincarnation 2) It’s group Karma... all coming from our own group evil.. and the karma will pressure us to keep evolving and to get to a good place. And once you’re there there is joy and happiness for all (and no life had ended.. only transformed). The concept of karma is the deep mystery, whereby we can have free choice, but yet be ‘pressured’ into a pre-determined end. This theological problem doesn’t typically meet with the answers I’ve given above.
Dealing with this is a lot easier if you’re not committed to traditional Christian dogmatism. Maybe some of the Platonists were right and God is the One, the simple, immutable, and unitary principle which gives rise to multiplicity. So the Craftsman who actually designed the cosmos is a secondary emanation from it, and has to work with disordered matter as a canvas which limits him. Maybe Numenius was right and the World-Soul is affected by contact with matter and either split or corrupted into a good and evil one. Maybe there’s a good God and an evil Anti-God like in Zoroastrianism. Tbh, Judeo-Christian commitments have prevented us from making the kinds of progress we could’ve been on religious problems like this.
The whole point of life is to grow and become a better person you need to feel sorrow to understand joy, you need free will to learn from your mistakes, Like a stone tumbling in the sea getting chipped away till it is smooth this is life. And Is death really so bad if you believe your going to a better place ? Maybe when children and baby’s die is it because they’re already perfect and don’t need to grow, it’s hard in this world to hold on to believe but I try
Zoroastrianism sees the world as a 'theatre' where good and evil have to fight or coexist. If this understanding of the world is closer to truth, there may not be just ONE perfect God, there could also be an evil one. Maybe creation is dual.
@@chrisc1257 Like what? That a rib-woman ate a magical fruit which damned humanity to millennia of suffering which could only be rectified by god sacrificing himself to himself in a dusty corner of Palestine where only illiterate fishermen witnessed it and was only written down decades later by middle class greeks? Yeah, far more sensible.
“…the evil spirit, Satan or whatever is interpreted as evil, refers to the lower nature in man. This baser nature is symbolized in various ways. In man there are two expressions: One is the expression of nature; the other, the expression of the spiritual realm. - The Promulgation of Universal Peace, pp. 294-295.” “God tests gold with fire and His servants with gold.” Because of autonomy , free will humans are given the choice to choose to make an effort to be godly or ungodly.
I believe that God is in a battle with Satan and when we choose good over evil than we directly affect the stress that is on God constantly. I believe God has all power but since evil is in the world by Gods own will we must be challenged by it. Believe what you want but there is a powerful benevolent creator. Mister X
I cannot help but wonder whether there would be ANY atheists in the world if the Bible depicted God as unloving. Think about it. The arguement is that BECAUSE of the presence of evil, which includes all kinds of suffering, such as disease, torture and predation, there cannot be a Creator. If God is all- loving and all-good, then there should not be suffering in the world. So the idea of such a God is rejected. But what if he was revealed as unloving and distant? What reasons would the atheist then present for rejecting the concept of a divine Creator?
Fortunately, i chose not to believe in gods or God, nor to be atheist, I'm agnostic, a plausibilistic agnostic. Btw in this video i cried like a little girl and I'm in my 20years old decade, so no more a child, but cried like a child
Short answer: Yes it does disproves god. Long answer: It ABSOLUTELY does disproves GOD. Like, you high or what? Do watch a rabbit or dog screaming until they die with a broken leg and then tell me it was something existence needed. P.S: still, I consider myself agnostic. We truly dont know what god truly is, if he was rational maybe it wouldnt be god. I certainly wont pray for such an entity though.
If we have empathy + we feel the pain of others and it pushes us to help, then this fairytale god is definitely not empathetic to human pain and struggle and he/she definitelly doesn't care whatsoever.
The question presupposes evil exists, does it not? And even if we grant, for the sake of argument, evil exists, it does not follow that any measure of evil is connected with a god or gods-let alone countered by an objective moral / good standard on the opposite end of the scale. Also, if we subsequently grant the existence of a god or gods they might, for instance, be as the Greeks imagined, not wholly good and, occasionally, somewhat mischievous. So, in my opinion, the question, Does Evil Disprove God?, is a non sequitur.
We live in a world of opposites. Everything is relative to something else. For us to have perspective on anything we must understand the opposite. How would you know light without dark, hot without cold good without evil?
@@blaster-zy7xxI disagree with that. Yes, there a lot of negatives in the world, people do bad things, but actual evil? Evil is a whole other level beyond just being bad or mean spirited. I don't believe there is more evil in the world than good, because evil is a very strong concept. Evil is taking pleasure in others suffering. People do bad things, but it would be a small minority that are that level of sadistic.
@@100percentSNAFU OK, this is a bit of an argument of semantics. One of the arguments against the God of the Bible is called "the problem of evil." That operational definition is just more inclusive than yours. If we include child cancer, infant mortality, massive hunger, birth defects, parasites, needless pain and suffering, then it is difficult to make the case for an omnipotent loving God who cares for every living person, as many Christians beleive. The argument is that God made the universe as it is; complete with child cancer, parasites, birth defects etc. If God is omnipotent as Christians beleive and God created these horrors, then the God of the Bible is evil.
All these years I've been so very wrong. Instead of complaining about my life long suffering.. I should celebrate because others were allowed the right to torture myself!!!
Your comment has a tone of sarcasm to make a point now if I'm analyzing correctly I have a question do you think that the soldiers that went into Vietnam were evil? If you say no what kind of answer you think you would get from the people that live in Vietnam? How did people feel when people protested that war Network pro war? Don't you think they felt happy that they had the freedom and right to do what they felt was right? And as I said do you think going into Vietnam was evil? And how many people agree with you in the 60s or even now would you have a 100% participation? Something to think about isn't it?
The question why is there evil doesn’t make sense without a God. For example why is it that a Loin eating a Zebras neck seems to be objectively morally wrong. If it is just survival of the fittest you shouldn’t take a moral position on it. I would argue that morality seems to be a intrinsic value of humans, and the deeper question is where does it come from I would say a higher power. In conclusion I’m not saying if you don’t believe you can’t be morally good, but again the larger question is why is something objectively Evil if the world is survival of the fittest why is it wrong to murder or steal. It seems to me the question itself doesn’t make sense if you take a naturalistic approach. Also I know this is more of a philosophical approach, but the question where does morality come from I believe is a very important one, and doesn’t make sense without a higher moral standard.
I would claim that those who believe in Evil PROVE Free Will. Let's be honest, no one metaphysically knows of the existence of God, much less the personality, biases, or properties of God (if God exists). What RLK is doing is talking about is idea of a personal God that exists in many Christian religions that is supposed to be all good and benevolent. The flip side to that coin is that IF such a God existed then Free Will could not exist. In fact, not even "Goodness" or "Evil" could not exist. What makes an act a "good" act or a "evil" act is not the mere behavior. It's the intent behind the behavior. Intent involves choice and if there is no free will then choice is merely an illusion. In fact, if RLK's stated belief that free will does not exist then Evil cannot exist. If free will does not exist then Goodness cannot exist because all actions are the result of molecules interacting with each other then "evil" people had no choice to act the way they acted. According to people like RLK and Sam Harris, Hitler was just unlucky. He was the collection of atoms that were determined to cause the holocaust. It's videos like these that lead me to dislike the disingenuous philosophical claims they make. What is there is a God and God is evil, or God is indifferent to human behavior, or what is there is a level of suffering humanity has never experienced that is 1000 times worse than the world we live in now? Honestly I did not finish the video. Too obtuse. If I missed something please point it out in the comments.
Swinburne is looking at it from an eternal or divine perspective. The prisoners lost their temporary life, but will be in paradise. The guards defiled their souls, which may be eternal.
Good point. To me, that essentially is the difference between Deism and Abrahamic religions. I agree that believing in a deity and then jumping to a belief that the deity is absolutely good and moral is problematic at best.
@@jimm8619 I disagree but it doesn't matter if your a deist or from an abrahamic religion because in the end of the day we both come to a conclusion that there is one god that created the universe .
I think the reason why god pays attention and cares about humans is because we are probably the only advanced species in the universe there are probably other life forms but we are the most unique
I just have a problem with "if you choose to believe.." I can't choose what I believe. Either I believe or I don't. Am I the only one wishing that there is no god? 🤔
I have this problem as well. It’s the fear and discomfort of not knowing that compels people to believe in god. Making a choice to believe in something that is unknowable is just too convenient. It’s understandable, but it also reflects a lack of courage in accepting other possibilities might exist.
Why are we alluding that God is infinitely good? What if he is not a person like us? What if God is just energy from which this material universe came into being? Energy can be used for good as well as evil. If you ask me, God is not some white haired man living in heaven but just an enormous energy field in which we exist.
In God's word talks about the evilness and all that and discernment what do you think the sermon is discerning between Good and evil separation of the sheep and goats.
Does the magnitude and widespread distribution of evil signify that human society(s) are neglecting or not living for God as God instructed, leaving society(s) without divine protection and in some cases under divine judgement?
A god that gives a baby brain cancer because human society is neglecting what he has instructed is a monster and not worthy of worship. Punishing innocent people for the actions of others is the trait of a psychopath.
@@chrismathis4162 Modern medicine teaches us that cancers are caused by faulty genes, or environmental factors amongst others. I don’t hold that God causes cancers but our response to the suffering they cause calls forth a compassionate response in us to work together to find a cure. Suffering can and does cause immense pain but it’s our response to it which humanises us. The human race is “groaning in one long act of giving birth” - St Paul. It is my hope that we are evolving from our primitive beginnings to becoming mature, compassionate humans.
Bad start claiming the theists talk fast. The atheist professor talked faster - even slurring so much as to be unintelligible. That said, a Christian philosopher really can’t argue the issue excluding the Christ and the promise contained therein. Otherwise, they’re a wheel spinning without an axle. There is nothing to exclude a creator who allows evil. As stated, we are very small, and really can’t authoritatively comment on the issue in any meaningful way. As also stated, a good god must have a higher purpose overriding the horrific wickedness of this world. The Christ points to the next life, and the reconciliation of evil humanity with loving divinity through his sacrifice - ultimate love bore the ultimate suffering. If this short miserable life is all there is, either god doesn’t exist or embraces what we consider to be evil. Free will is a debated concept even amongst Christian theologians. It really isn’t relevant to the discussion (although, a British accent does seem to give it more credence).
If Free Will necessitates the existence of evil, then they're must be evil in heaven. In fact, if this is the least evil world containing creatures with Free Will that can possibly exist (Plantinga), then Heaven must be a real hellhole--unless we don't have Free Will in Heaven. 🤔
A possible simulator might not even realize that we exist. Our contribution to the universe might be way too irrelevant and our definition of good and bad is most probably not universal. Its very ignorant to belive a god cares about us in this incredible huge universe and I dont even know if we shall have this expectation as we dont know which plans it would have.
Yes, the Universe is neutral about our existence, and would be unmoved by our extinction. Striving for a more ethical and moral experience is up to us. May you stay healthy and safe.
No, paradoxically it endorses God/Scripture. By illustrating that life is a testing ground with free will as a gift. Plus, it (Evil) gives us a basis for comparison. Hope this helps.
Where is the free will involved when a baby starves to death or is stricken with brain cancer? Does your god punish babies because of the sin of others? If he does, then he is a psychopathic monster.
I was just reading the comment below how humans are slaughtering billions of animals for food each day. And that animals are probably conscious. First i meant to reply to that person, but this idea somehow compliment what i would like to say, so i included this problem in my story. Let's suppose you have a dog and a few of her puppies. After a few years, mother and her siblings forget they're a family, they treat each other just like any other dogs would. You can literally slaughter on of puppies in front of its mother, then serve her meat from its own sibling. And it will eat it, just like any other meat, totally forgetting about what has happened only a few hours ago. That should answer animal consciousness, it doesn't exist. But we must also ask why would an animal do such a thing, sure the dog was not so hungry, it was eating meat out of a natural habit. Animals also don't know the concept of a family, they feel attachment when cubs are born, because mother must nurture them, but completely lose interest after a certain period of time, when puppies became self-sufficient. Thing is, that hypothetical cannibalism would never have happened without deliberate human intervention. Dogs do eat dogs, but only when must, would never slaughter their own cubs and eat them in normal circumstances, specially if there's other food available. Humans are animals, what makes us ethical and moral is our culture, not our nature. We know evil because we are not evil, not anymore, not if we're raised in a good family and in a civilized society. So the question we should ask is, did God make us better than animals, did supernatural force raise our spirit above natural evils? Every anthropologist will tell you, forget about it, many people are ignorant and dumb, they don't care about civilized norms, or ethics, or morality simply because they don't understand it. Could be because they can't, or they don't want to, if children had bad parents. We can observe how mothers destroy their own child early as when only 3-4 years old, those kids almost never recover, can't grow over bad parent's influences even when they can't remember anything from that early age. It's beyond language and comprehension, the true evil is encoded deep into the subconscious psyche. People have capacity to recover from the evil ghost of their traumatic childhood, but this means contradicting sacred rules of every modern society, nobody should feel any love and respect for very bad parents, also not for a very bad government or even church, abandoned by God because they didn't notice and stop the worst parental crimes. Humans will remain evil for many decades to come, we might never evolve over the Devils we are because there obviously is no God or any other higher authority, it's only us.
That's just not true about dogs, if they have a close bond, they will react. Animals also constantly go out of their way to help other animals, there are countless videos of them doing this. The only difference between animals and humans is our intelligence, we both act virtuously out of compassion for other beings.
@@sigigle Didn't say animals don't react when some in their pack gets hurt, but they forget about it only a few hours latter. Animals don't help, but they do love to play, those videos show interest in unusual activities, not benevolence. The only thing we have in common with other animals are animal basic instincts, they can be exaggerated specially in mammals group because of our social conditioning.
@@xspotbox4400 That's not the case. Dog's have been known to grieve for a very long time. Elephants make long walks back to areas that other elephants they knew died, etc, etc. There are videos of elephants wading into deep mud to help stuck zebras, a cat chasing away a dog that was attacking a toddler, dogs rescue drowning animals all the time, etc. You can't just dismiss these kinds of things as mere 'interest in unusual activities', they're clearly doing it to help, to be benevolent.
We can't understand an omnipotent being I guess we wouldn't .So define evil.Though we feel and see things are evil.After all it is something we don't understand.If there wasn't this what we feel good and call evil,Without either would we know one or the other to show how important either is .It is a balance in our consciousness and our existence.A balance that we name evil.So if we can't fully understand God or even the dimensions of an omnipotent being, or this existence, than how what we call evil ,is it really evil,And say Then a God can't exist?I guess I one could argue would we know what we call good if we didn't know what we call evil.
What does evil even mean? Not compliant with Western cultural standards? Like calling grandma once a week. What makes a tiger more evil tearing apart a Zebra's neck then me tearing apart an apple? Are Zebra's morally superior over an apple tree? Does this superiority grant them additional rights? Apparently so. Nobody in this video talks about the mass murder of animals and plants we commit to justify our selfish need to survive, feed our greed and expand. Why are death and pain and catastrophe associated with evil? Apparently, it's all very centered on what gives humans a low level of stress. I'm convinced there is such thing as good or evil in this world. I'm convinced there are herd members going more with the flow than others. If you don't like evil, look in a direction that feels better?
Slaughtering literally millions or billions of tons of living, probably conscious animals and plants surely can’t be how we have to live or we’ll die, if this is meant to be a type of game like reality made by this all loving powerful godly being, who’d be capable of making it a better place without people and animals suffering all the time. Why would a baby or child get cancer and die, it just doesn’t make sense to me. That was a really good episode and I like all the questions you asked and also the way you went into all the natural suffering, as well as humans doing bad evil things to each other. Thanks for another great episode btw I hope I’m wrong.
What you have described is not how the world was created and set in motion according to Genesis. Also more and more research show that childhood diseases like Cancers and any other one you can name are rooted in the irresponsibility or evil of Man. Poorly researched vaccines. Unwillingness to look after our health properly and therefore leading to a breakdown of our DNA which leads to babies with cancer sometimes in the next generation. Every thing is connected. Many of these are non questions. Our intuition and common sense mixed with newer and newer research can quite easily see the truth. But the sheer responsibility of setting the world right is so scary to us, that we willingly run away from the truth we welcome and accept confusion instead. And then God becomes our scapegoat. And we blame him rather than accepting our true responsibility and power as rightfull “Gods” of the planet we occupy. And indeed over the entire creation.
According to Bible God made us a perfect world, no death no hunger no pain. We rejected it in favor of knowledge. Look at modern western culture. People have it easier and better than anyone in history has ever dreamed of. What do they do? They go find new things to be miserable about.
Tbh with yous, I was bought up a atheist so I’m not saying there 100% isn’t a god, I just find it far fetched, but having said that, I’m not educated in god and Christianity although I went to a catholic school. I never got into it all because my upbringing made me just think it’s all basically bs, so who am I to say. I hope I’m wrong tbh because I don’t wanna cease to exist! So I am open to it haha
Let's explore this idea. What exactly is evil? Are we using the word as an adjective, as in describing a despicable act of intentionally inflicted cruelty? Are we using the word as a noun, as in describing a purely malevolent non physical essence as if it were a willful self directed force like the imaginary devil repeatedly mentioned in the bible? In either case to infer the nonexistence of God because of the existence of natural dangers or because of the self chosen genocidal madness of our history is specious and unwarranted. If God intervened whenever a real danger threatened us we would be living in a closed universe with little room for human freedom. Let's take the worst case scenario of an innocent child with cancer. If it's reasonable to expect God to cure this child than it must hold that every child deserves the same, and not only cancer but all sickness in all people. Also if God is real and benevolent he should end all hunger, cruelty and abuse. However if there were no diseases taking innocent lives the spur to develop medical science wouldn't exist. In this case the seeming absence of God has worked to man's eventual self empowerment. The very difficult question as to why God would seem to permit the systematic brutality of more than six million Jews in Europe with one million of them children being murdered on an industrial scale is not an indictment against God so much as it is ourselves. The gas chambers were engineered, built, and operated by people who knew what they were going to be used for and made a conscious choice to allow it to happen and to take part in the genocide. If humans didn't have the freedom to choose or not choose a course of action the idea of accountability would be meaningless, and hence the notion and concept of justice would be nugatory because all law assumes the freedom to engage or refrain from our personal actions. We punish the offender because he freely chose to offend. War and genocide are chosen often with violent rhetoric asserting that choice. If human freedom is to have real meaning then humanity must accept responsibility for the self inflicted pain of these terrible scourges. Only humanity can walk out of the darkness it has created. When the parents of a sixteen year old stop bailing him out of trouble as they once routinely did, it's not because they don't love him. It's because they want him to develop his own strength and self reliance. I repeat; the "seeming" absence of God has and is working to secure our ultimate self empowerment.
Any good purchased at the cost of evil, itself becomes evil. The best book I have come across on this topic is David Bentley Hart’s “The Doors of the Sea.”
@@Iambriangregory Capitalism certainly has its problems, especially in some of its more exploitative variants, such as crony capitalism and the ever expanding surveillance capitalism. Still wouldn’t want to try communism though. That experiment was far more deadly and evil.
@@normaodenthal8009 you're doing what everybody else seems to do saying your pots more black than my pot or my imperfections are bigger than your imperfections and you're missing the main point imperfect is imperfect you got that? if it fails on one person it's a failure you got that? It's the same difference of falling out of a 35 story building and then telling somebody well I only fell out of a 25 story building big deal what's the diff? So don't try to Palm off opinion is fact of any consequence
@@Iambriangregory I am thoroughly amazed by all the things you have read into my short comment which I never said, and then getting worked up about the things I never said. It seems you have become a consummate master of arguing with the figments of your own imagination.
@@normaodenthal8009 never ceases to amaze me how people get caught with their pants down thinking they were more intelligent and they could get a fastball comment by the fastball hitter and when they get hit out of the park with a home run they start saying oh I really wasn't trying to get you out ,that's phony you said what you said put your pants on and grow up and stand by what you said you said you didn't want to try another one type of governmentI said they're all imperfect it's like the difference between falling down the 35 story building and 25 you said it you got to live with it you got that? So I'm sorry I exposed you to yourself that you're not as smart as you thought you were now I know I have silence you permanently because you won't have any comeback because you know you'll be embarrassed again and stop trying to be an anger management specialist because you're not handling any of your assignments well right now so don't try to be a lie detector and a smartwatch for persons tension levels because you're not that smart and you're not a watch!
The suffering in the world is tremendous. Especially if we take into account all the suffering of animals. This is not the sort of world we'd expect an all knowing, all powerful, perfectly good God to create. So yes, that's strong evidence against God's existence.
@@terrywbreedlove Why use two words for the same phenomena, then? You are wrong, check definitions of words. Love doesn't exist, it's a complex sensation, emerging from basic instinct for reproduction of species.
*No free will according to the bible.* How would anyone, if they were God themselves, create sons and daughters of themselves without their children actually knowing evil and good? We can't understand the *mind of God* or His ways, especially the works of His will, to purposely create holy sons and daughters for Himself. *No free will.* What many are not understanding is that GOD Himself is suffering along with all of us who suffer evil, because His spirit, His light is in each and everyone one of us (in superposition). Matthew 25:42-45 King James Version 42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
Theists: Evil and suffering exist because God gave us the free will to choose to do good and to freely come to accept His love and gift of salvation in heaven, and we aren’t free unless we can also choose to sin and do evil. God didn’t just want robots who are programmed to do good. Skeptics: Uh, ok. So do we still have free will when we’re with God in heaven, then? If so, that should mean that there’s evil and suffering in heaven, by your own argument, because having free will entails the ability to do evil - but if there’s evil and suffering in heaven, how is life in heaven any different than life on Earth? Conversely, if there isn’t evil or suffering in heaven, then that should mean that we don’t have the free will to choose to sin in heaven, and we would therefore just spend eternity as robots who are programmed to do good, according to your logic - in which case, maybe being a robot isn’t so bad, after all? OR, if there IS free will in heaven and there is also no evil or suffering in heaven, then you would have to admit that free will and the ability to sin/do evil do not HAVE to go hand in hand - in which case, why didn’t God just do that to begin with? No suffering, no evil, and we’re all freely with God right from the get go, right? Theists: God is mysterious. Skeptics: 👍🏼 🙄
Just read JOB….. GOD Allowed satan to take everything Job loved. Job was afflicted in every possible way. He wanted to die. His friends told him he must have done something very wrong for GOD to take away all Job had. Job’s very response to speak positively about GOD and recognise the ultimate Power rests in GOD: to give and to take away.. GOD in the later chapters tells Job’s friends off. For having wrong attitudes about Who God is. Does no one understand let alone accept, that GOD Himself does Not cause Evil? We do. When our own little children begin to do what we have told them not to do, it is our job to teach them, the consequences of their own choices. GOD Allows evil to happen in our lives and we are vulnerable to acting out in evil ways because of our nature. What is The Way back though from that? Turn from it To the only Source of GOOD. Why not ask: Does evil disprove human goodness??”
It doesn’t disprove God(s) per se, but it does disprove the existence of a God(s) who has all of the purported characteristics of the Abrahamic God, namely: - Omniscience - Omnipotence - Omnibenevolence There is no argument whatsoever against this proposition. If God is not aware of the existence of evil, then he/she/it is not omniscient. If God is not capable of preventing evil, then he/she/it is not omnipotent. If God is aware of and capable of preventing evil, then he/she/it is not benevolent, much less omnibenevolent. QED. End of discussion.
Its a test. There is a documentary by a western scientist with very good video photography proof with detailed expressions etc. where the Japanese discriminated other Asians were born in the other culture. They even looked Japanese and were very uneasy with the heat of the other countries they were reincarnated into. Its all a test to see who does harm to others and they get it in the next life. P.S: and yes, God (the computer works very very slowly but firmly like the Homeopathic medicine.)
Free will is a cop-out to the problem of evil, ignoring sentience and intent in natural catastrophes. Earthquakes, hurricanes, cancer in children, droughts, and viruses don't have free will! Natural chaos kills indiscriminately of beliefs... God is either all powerful, but not loving; or all loving, and not powerful enough to avoid evil. That God does not exist. Period.
