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It's all about training. I was used to shoot glock, then pick up a p320, and at the beginning it sucked, until I realized that the p320 has much more "room" at the frame, so I can put my support hand higher and a little forward (without interfering in the slide function), compensating the high bore axis and getting more recoil control.
@@DinoNucciwhich better gun would that be? Can't get much better than a Sig, I've owned several P320s and never had an issue other than my thumb keeping the slide lock from engaging. I'm betting you're just an ignorant internet hater.
I have a P01 that I use to test my new pistols against, site acquisition, recoil control and accuracy. The low bore axis does have a bit of difference.
I agree. Guess we are unexperienced lol. Just shoot a gun you shoot well with. I shoot lower bore axis guns better and I just prefer the impulse over guns with bricks for slides.
His claim doesn't make sense...it clearly makes the gun flip more when bore axis is higher...which does affect reacquiring the target for subsequent shots, hence the entire reason comps are popular...to minimize muzzle flip and make it it super simple for accurate follow up shots...and the P226 was flipping more...and he admitted he's not as fast....why?...because it takes more time to flip, and then flip down for every round.....P-01 with a comp would be phenomenal....love that pistol :) but have never shot one comped...always wanted to try one comped
The best way to look at bore axis is in terms of leverage. Some pistols exert more leverage than others even though the amount of energy generated by the round is the same. Some guns are designed to impart more mechanical advantage to the round than others. Simple physics. I used to shoot P226s and 229s a lot. While the amount of energy is the same, muzzle flip is more noticeable with them than guns with a lower bore axis. Training helps a lot. Just realize that over time and firing a lot of rounds, trying to control guns that tend to flip more than others will cause repetitive stress issues to your wrists and elbows. Simple physics. Ask me how I know. :)
Excellent discussion. What I admire and respect about you sir besides the fact you are an excellent super duper shooter is your humble personality and down to earth attitude. That speaks volumes about you and truely this is why people like you. It’s the right attitude just like Jerry Miculek. Good luck in everything you do
Yeah man I thought the same thing high bore until I really starting shooting a p320 xfive dh3 then I realized it’s probably one of the most reliable & accurate handguns you can possibly own. 3000rds no cleaning man and it’s still running the same as the first day out the box. Just sayin.
I think it can def help make a gun easier to shoot. But it’s a combination. My pmm built p320 is by far my best shooter despite having such a high bore axis.
@@randominternetprofile8270 the Herrington one is only one top port where the pmm one is two. I doubt it’d feel better.. I tried the spectre comp p320 and liked the pmm better so sold that
I got a cheapo ruger ec9 for my first pistol, and got ok with it, maybe 800rounds, then i got a canik and didnt realize how different each pistol could feel. I was much better with the canik almost immediately. Was able to get to 25 yrds and actually hit the paper lmao. I used to shoot a ton of lever 30-30 when i was younger, and some skeet with my 20g when i was real young, i didnt know how much more difficult a pistol was to shoot well. Its a bucketload of fun, and love the challenge.
Look up what Guntweaks says about bore axis and index alignment. I choose to shoot a completely reliable P320 Max in competition. I also have an occasionally unreliable Alien and a bunch of other very good performance oriented pistols - CZ’s , Walther, Canik, Bul , HK, , S&W etc . IMO , Bore Axis is a minor element in the overall characteristics of a pistol. Lots of other factors come into play , primarily rounds down range.
What truly matters is the ability to quickly stack shots on target. Lower bore axis, along with other features can make this easier, but obviously there are plenty of people who can run a 320 very well. I can’t shoot them for shit, I shoot a 365 much better. More recoil, but the dot barely moves.
This is true. I normally compete and run with 115 bulk ammo. A buddy of mine gave me some extremely low recoil powder puff competition loads, and it threw me off big time despite technically being better.
At some point, certain designs lose in the ergonomics department by shoving the hand further and further up and the trigger finger has to reach downward. Some design the trigger differently to adjust for that by changing the path, pulling diagonally up towards the rear sight like Steyr M9 variants. There is a balance in between instead of maxing out just one ability.
I love my P320 Spectre Comp with the tungsten infused grip module. She’s nice and heavy. Sig did an awesome job with that infusion. I have a nice size gas pedal on it for more downward front pressure, which makes her run pretty flat. I’m quick with it. But I also have thousands of rounds through her. I’m still quicker with my Staccato P though. 😜
First pistol was a low bore axis Steyr L9 because I was recoil sensitive. I still have it but now I'm rocking FNX-45 just because I like 45 ACP feel and the style, despite the bore axis being "higher." Experience and time with the guns make the difference
Does it matter? It's a minor variable in a long list of variables. Caliber, length of barrel and length of slide, weight of slide/barrel/guide rod/frame, grip, stance, ammo type(+p), ammo grain weight, etc etc. Yes it matters, everything matters. Is there an inherent advantage? Depends on the sum of the parts meshing well with the end user interface.
I’ve been following your tips for handgun shooting and dude, I couldn’t miss at the range yesterday, thanks for the awesome content and merry Christmas!
IME muzzle flip and felt recoil are related though. All else being equal, less flip equals more recoil felt since the energy that would be pulling that barrel up now goes strait back. Something I never thought about till I got a revolver with adjustable barrel weights and was surprised it hit as hard as it did, although I took advantage of that w/o thinking when shooting big bores. So I'll pass on a 500 made by Chiappa thank you very much :)
You are correct, and revolvers were designed to rotate in ones hand to mitigate that recoil energy. My P365 recoils quite a bit - a lot of energy is transferred into my hands, but the dot barely moves, very little muzzle rise.
*Bore axis DOES MATTER. You need SOME. The Laugo Alien demonstrates that.* _We should never aspire to put the recoil directly inline with our arm. It then introduces lateral instability._ When shooting the Alien, the return to POI is 'random'. When you have the bore axis above your arm, your wrist can then moderate just ONE force, upward. And the return is then in one axis. The Alien was one of my worst gun purchases, ever.
Let me grab that Alien off ya on the cheap -- little more cash strapped these days since wrapping up my divorce, so help a brother out while also getting from under one of your worst gun purchases... win/win?
i'm with you, just get out and shoot and figure out what works best for you. rounds down range are the best bet. shooting a lot of different platforms helps too. keep up the hard work and thanks for the content!!
This is what I'm now interested in. Thanx for the video. Got into firearms about 4 years ago. I'm in my 50's. I'm All In now. Safety is #1. Haven't watched a nfl, nba, mlb, or my beloved nhl, in about 2:years. My Sooners and Hawkeyes... eh, once in a while. Much more fun to take my wife, sons, and daughter in law shooting.
Even though you hate 320s, you admit there are people that shoot them better than you. Impressive. I think that is good advice. Shoot what works best for you.
Some psychology and perception to it as well, plus there's a difference between an experienced shooter and somebody that gets paid to shoot a lot - if you like the way the gun shoots (feels in your hand, how it acts), you'll shoot it better. To me the low bore axis guns are more easily controllable, and that comes out more with things that have more recoil than a 9mm. My 10mm 1911s and G20s are nicer to shoot than my Sig P220 10mm (tho the Sig is my favorite in that caliber - Sig always has nice ergos), the Sig flips more than the other two. I haven't seen it done on video yet, but I would bet money that a Chiappa Rhino can be ran quickly, more accurately than comparable-length 'standard' 357s due to the low muzzle flip and the direction of the felt recoil.
3:50 I wanted to switch my polymer carry for something with a metal frame and now I might just stick with polymer but then again the new Sig p365 AXG with comp is set towards a carry pistol and the specs aren't too bad compared to what I carry now and it has an aluminum frame.
Grip design has a lot to do with controlling muzzle flip and recoil on any pistol. A grip with lots of traction for the support hand, both texture and surface area, makes any pistol feel easier to control.
It does not matter for shooting self defense from 7 yards, it does matter for shooting serious bulls eye from 25 meters, because high axis multiplies shooters’s mistakes in sigth alignment on target. That’s why top bulls eye 22 lr pistols, as well as some centerfire, have very low axis. For what you do in your backyard, does not matter, Go to a serious bulls eye competition and you will see a huge difference in points.
It's all about training... but let me add more aggressive grip panels, or stipple my plastic grip to enhance my grip. It's all about training... but let me add weight the grip section of the gun to increase its inertia. It's all about training... but let me add lightening cuts to the slide and bring down the reciprocating mass, reducing that component of felt recoil. It's all about training... but let me play with the recoil spring to get away with the lightest unit available to reduce the impact on lock-up. It's all about training... but let me add barrel ports, and/or a compensator/brake to take adantage of the high pressure gas, and use it to my benefit. It's all about training... but let me add a flared funnel to my magazine well so I have a better chance of nailing my reload. It's all about training... but let me install a lighter/crisper/ faster trigger for obvious reasons. Hell, I could go on. Is it all about training? Yes, absolutely - duh. However, that fact does not negate the real benefits of those performance based features added to gun. The same goes for bore-axis, which is a more fundamental performance characteristic than anything I listed above. Will a pick up truck beat a sports car around a track? Sure, if a pro driver is behind the wheel of the truck, and a total amature is driving the sports car. However nobody can deny that given equal drivers, the sports car will beat the truck around the track. Same goes for two guns and their bore-axis.
Does bore axis make a difference? Yes. Is it enough to matter? Mostly no. Is it something that you can train around? Definitely. Is it something you should worry about? Only if you're a competitive shooter and you can actually make use of the 0.001 split times it may change.
Trust me. As a Walther PDP guy: there’s so much HATE surrounding the “high bore axis” but I can shoot one better than a Glock. I have the groups to prove it. People will blame everything except their grip and fundamentals. 🤷🏾♂️
The smoothest 10mm to shoot is the XTEN Comp followed by the XTEN. They have hIgH bORE aXiS. The topic is ridiculous. While there might be some merit to it, people are too fixated on it; much like they are with over penetration when they need to be fixated on making hits under dynamic circumstances. I suppose it’s easier to talk about bore axis and over penetration when one (or the intended audience) doesn’t know or haven’t experienced much else.
Contrary to popular belief, the Sig 226 is damn near the same bore axis to the CZ 75. This was measured on camera with calipers on a RU-vid [ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-ZZmjhBaMQno.htmlsi=6zeADTYn5ukJGpDl] channel.
Ok..Next Year...Jingle Bells(101) and "Silent Night " ..tuned steel targets!....OR...need to get a bunch of Pews together for a full orchestral arrangement!..🤔 MERRY CHRISTMAS PEW ! and Everyone !
Objectively I would say that if one of the fixes involves ADDING a part to the gun then yes. Bore axis does indeed "matter" a little bit. Squatting 400 pounds also becomes easier if you train. Not sure if that was the question here though.
Did you know that sig offered to do a ful funded investigation into that discharge you mentioned? The department declined because like thousands of other cheap Departments, they manipulated a glock holster to force a sig to fit, via dremmeling, meling plastic to make trigger housing retention work, ect. The hell do you expect? Now the drop safety issue... that was a real problem. Funny that you didn't mention it was iroed out within the first generation.... lol This brings me back to the "goes off on its own" idea, How many civilians have had this problem😮 none😂. Only police departments that want to cram a sig into a glock holster and save 50$😂
Beretta has also done it with the Cougar and the PX4 and works great art reducing recoil, but make sure you don't lose the cam when you field strip the gun.
Does bore axis really matter? No. Recoil will be transferred more straight back into the wrist than back and upward with a low bore axis. So recoil is not reduced, just transferred differently. The only real advantage of a lower bore axis might be slightly quicker reacquisition of sights between shots with flatter shooting since upward muzzle flip is reduced. Recoil will have to be managed regardless of bore axis so the advantage is negligible. Recoil control and accuracy is on the shooter, not the gun.
All the 320 boys have entered the chat. Ask any Army, Air Force, or Navy service member... those 320s have issues. Issues beyond drop safe stuff. If you're one of those "well I've shot 500,000 rounds through mine with no malfunctions". Good for you. At the very least, Sig boys need to admit their are mad quality control issues.
Lucas did a pretty damn good job of showing how bore axis doesn't matter, and how time with a platform matters more. I don't recommend the P320 purely based on the safety concerns. There are people who have 10's of thousands of rounds through theirs and no issues, but there are other pistols I would look at before grabbing a P320 (even though I find the P320 easy to shoot).
I think handgun balance and ergos matter far more than bore axis. If it fits your hand and returns on target after recoil where you want it, why does it matter if it has a high or low bore?
@@DinoNucci Worse than a gun that has great ergos that doesn't force all the recoil into your wrists and arms and instead dissipates some of that recoil into muzzle flip. It's preference.
@@DinoNucci No, there's nothing wrong with either approach. As long as the gun settles back to where you want it after firing a shot, there rest is entirely preference. You can go the low bore axis and deal with absorbing most of the recoil or absorb less of the recoil and deal with more muzzle flip. But if you have to fight the gun to get it back to where you want it after a shot, then there's likely a problem with the balance out the ergos of the gun assuming you're a proficient shooter.
@@danielhenderson8316It's simple: lower bore axis is objectively, physically, scientifically better for recoils management. If you _choose_ to ignore that, it's indeed your choice, but it doesn't make you correct
5000 rds with high bore axis and 5000 rounds with lower bore axis. Of course training matters, but I think its a matter of a mechanical advantage due just by nature of the design and physics for that muzzle flip.
Low bore axis guns will wear out your wrists faster but feel less flippy. High bore axis guns will feel more flippy but are easier on your wrists over time
Would have liked to see a timer to see your splits and bill drill times. This is subjective but what really matters is time on your gun. I bet with enough time you could get pretty proficient with a hi point talk about bore axis lol
Not worried about bore axis. If you can hip shoot as you do, it doesn’t matter. You have talked about your grip. I’d like to hear more about it. It seems like it is the highest I’ve ever seen. It seems like you would ride the slide with your thumbs. Is that what keeps the muzzle down? Regardless, you are a great shot and fast as hell. Nice work. I’m just curious about how you got to that level?
Nothing wrong with the Sig P320. Most discharges are not related to the gun, but the shooter and low quality holsters. Yes, including the one in the video. My P320 X-Compact has been dropped of the top of my refrigerator 3-4 times fully loaded with no issues. If you know how a striker fired pistol works, you know its ignorance, not the pistol. Bring on the Fudd comments
It's just simple physics...but if you can't grip it well, how can you rip it? Isn't CZ Shadow the of OG of low boar axis, plus their grip ergos are good too, how many clones are in production?
Just also figured out that the alien is also a gas delayed system and it really seems to take the snap out of things and the bore axis is just a smart way to use the gas delayed system without it looking like a yeet canon 😂 the bore axis was a product of engineering and design not the sole purpose of the pistol….. weird right? We all know it as the low bore axis pistol but not a modern day gas delayed pistol kinda cool
Bore access definitely matters when speed and follow up shots are a concern. Obviously bore axis doesn’t matter with casual shooting. Trigger reset is also a major factor in speed and follow up shots. Hence why guns like the Alien are fast as fuck and super accurate.
Quick question: what are your 2 most accurate guns? i ask to shoot in accuracy standing 25 yards centerfire tournaments. i'dont care about caliber. Thanks in advance.
