One I hear a lot is starving pedals of power causes damage. Little do they know many pedals, such as fuzz, can sound even better when starving the power by a hair to get the dying battery effect.
@@cheesy6516 under powering shouldn't be an issue, it's over powering them that is. Restricting voltage will sound different, you can watch our Battery Power Supply demo to get a sound reference for that.
So, I hear that you need an input and output buffer but, I've also heard that all pedals are buffers when you turn them on. If my Bass Compressor has an input impedance of 1Mohm and an output of 600ohm, is that a sufficient input buffer or would you still recommend sandwiching the board?
@@isaacramirez3729 yes, but just like all buffers, there are good and bad ones. A pedal on is a buffer, but the buffer could, and likely does suck. If your bass compressor is always on and is 1M, that will work for the input buffer, but you'd still want an output buffer. If you got a higher quality dual buffer it also wouldn't hurt anything.
I couldn’t agree more Loren! I will say though, listening to Mason and other pro builders and going to soldered sp400s with Mogami 2314 totally improved my tone. I went from blackbird solderless and man o man the clarity of the Mogami
I got a new job and more money = upgrading gear! I was debating on compressors, but my standard dynacomp is perfect for me. No fuss, just shut up and play your guitar. Don’t fix what’s not broken 😎
Thank you for this video. It confirms many items that I learned in college back in 1988. Especially the running signal with DC and keeping AC perpendicular to the DC wiring. The perpendicular part I was also doing while I was wiring controls panel at my job during those college years.
I have had some noise coming from my pedal board recently even though I got an isolated power supply. I had a sneaking suspicion it might be that my pedals were to close to it. Sure enough its exactly as you said. I have the power supply under the board with the pedals sitting directly above it. Thanks for the information it was very helpful. Ill go rewire my board now.
@@VertexEffectsInc It is a One Spot just like you talked about In the video. I moved it to the top corner of my board things are sounding much better. Thanks again for the good advice.
I have a set of solderless George L's patch cabling ready to assemble. Since I already have this on-hand, I'll use it all on my pedalboard(s), but after I've set myself up with a soldering station (which will happen in a few months), I'll later solder the connections to improve the connections, and going forward I'll always buy soldered cables or immediately solder more sets of solderless.
@@VertexEffectsInc Ooh, didn't know that! I haven't investigated that far yet, and have yet to set myself up with a soldering station. I already have something in mind for different connectors. Why is it that the George L's can't be soldered that way?
I've used George L cables for years with no issues, make sure you know how to assemble them.. But yes I agree Soldered cables are stronger and stay true. You missed coiled guitar cables vs straight..
@@bigstick5278 I love my George L's, the first cable I bought with my first electric in 1976. I f the connection gets bad it's such an easy fix. If Eric Johnson likes them, I gotta say yes?
2 of these came up for me as questions from the Rhett Board Video. I was thinking about how to phrase my questions but I now have the answers just from watching this. Also good to know that the board I will be using fuzz with will not start with a buffer.
Do you need an input and output buffer if you’re only using 3 or 4 pedals? My last pedal before the amp is a delay pedal with a quality buffer. I’m assuming it wouldn’t make much difference in my case but am still curious about it. Thanks
I have the Voodoo Lab Power 2 attached to a Pedal Train board underneath. How would I shield it from the pedals that are over it? Or like you said don’t put any pedals on top of it. Or a sheet of led in between? Arrrrg . Can’t afford to change up now. Thanks for the info.
Luckily, that's the only supply they make that actually uses steel as the chassis and does provide some shielding. You may not be experiencing noise now...so you can test that and see. Also the EMF increases the more power you draw against the power supply...the more current drawn against the supply the larger the field. Mumetal or steel would be the ordinary way to do this, but it's not as easy as just throwing sheets of metal between the supply - you have to ID where the field is and try to encase it as much as possible.
AC digital voltmeter. A scope would work, FFT analyzer, even a 1/3 octave display as they all show levels. The Voltmeter would give you a value readings, so that is best. But putting the rig in a true bypass looper and bringing it in/out is also a great test that you can do with stuff you might already have.
In the video mentions the vodoo lab as being a linear power supply and how their design can cause noise problems, yet everytime you talk about the problems the footage shows shots of the CS6. It can be a little confusing for some people, specially for people who skip parts of the video
Could you demystify “analog dry through” in delay and reverb pedals? I haven’t found an “expert source” commenting on that. Some people swear analog dry through sounds much better and has more dynamics that a fully DA/AD converted signal. Others say it only matters in a wet-dry setup... I am trying to decide on reverb and delay pedals to buy, but I find the analog dry through hype extremely confusing... P.S. I recently discovered your channel and I love the insights you share. They are very, very helpful. Thank you!
I wouldn't say it's a deal breaker...some popular pedals don't have it. Line 6 DL-4 I think - very popular and widely used for years. Equally the Eventide H9 and "Factor" pedals didn't have it either. An easy way to test what analog dry brings to the table with your pedals that don't have it is to put the pedal in a loop of a parallel mixer. Even a cheap one from Rolls, Rane, etc. will do this. The parallel mixer will give you the analog dry thru and you can determine if that's something that's a game changer or not for your tone.
@@VertexEffectsInc thanks for the quick reply! You’re right about some classic pedals not having it. And I guess it goes back to the motto “if it sounds good to you, then it is good”, right? I think what also adds to the confusion is the fact that manufacturers sometimes advertise big on the analog dry through feature. Like Strymon... they make awesome pedals and explicitly praise the feature in the description... but am I safe to assume that the pedals would sound equally awesome without the analog dry through? And then I see Walrus Audio’s Mako D1 and R1: both brilliant pedals IMHO with killer sounds at a decent price point and size. The R1 is four weeks old and is already being hated on in the forums for not having analog dry. And would they sound better with analog dry? Unfortunately I have no way of trying several pedals at the same time, with COVID lockdowns in Europe and because of budget limitations... the “virtual RU-vid testing and deciding” sucks... 🤣
@@javiermp81 I think you can have great sounding pedals either way...again the H9 has been a standard for years and I think the guys misunderstand the application and it's drawbacks in real life applications. There are few circumstances where it's really needed, in a real wet/dry situation I can see it being problematic if you want it 100% wet without any latency without a mixer.
I have a very specific question: Can you take a step-up (that turns 9V into 15v) and a reguler 9v together to run a q-tron+ (which takes 24v)? Or do i need to use the included powersupply, which cludders up the board? I love your stuff, btw!
You will need to put two 12v in series to get 24, many of the power supplies now can do this and you can get adaptor cables or make your own as we show in several of our DIY power cable videos.
@@VertexEffectsInc Thanks for the answer, that makes sense! My supply happens to have two 12v outputs, but one of them is AC, and one is DC. Is there some way around that, or will i just have to make due with having a power strip on the board itself?
Some constructive criticism... This is one of your best videos so far. You have a bad tendency to drone on about obvious points and skip over obvious questions. I have found several of your videos to be frustrating in what they left out. However this video was excellent from beginning to end. I can say I actually learned quite a few things. You might want to consider adhering to this format more closely in the future. Good work!
@@VertexEffectsInc Hit me up at calcooper4@mailbox.org. I'll give you a couple of specific examples to help make your videos more focused. BTW, I'm and art director and editor by training, so I'm not just mouthing off. ; )
Great video, just like all videos you put up there! Quick question, what about "gold" connector, like George L, etc... are they better than the silver ones or that is also a myth? Do they affect the tone differently? Thanks
I bought a metro 24, a volt by ernie ball, big muff tone wicker, vox v847a, TC sky surfer, RC1, NS2, EHX PitchFork, TU-3, and a DS1. All in the last 10 days. Never had a board until now!
9v versus 18v: assuming that the pedal isn’t doing the increase internally, and the pedal specifically allows for 9-18, I’ve had pedals where 18v results in audibly more headroom than 9v. I also had one where I messaged the maker and he said it’s being done internally, so it runs perfectly well at 9v.
When you hooked up Tosin’s ParaEQ, did you run it at 18v? I like to stack into it at 18v, with that added headroom. That’s the only time I’ve dealt with the 9v vs 18v. Interesting how a lot of pedals have these “charge pumps”
Hello Mason. I wanto to thank you again for the time you put on this videos sharing all your knowledge. This really has no price. If you let me I would like to make you 3 questions that I hope will help others too. You mentioned various bufeer types (BJT, Discrete, Opamp) so always that the input being 1Mohms and output 100ohms no matter the buffer type? Which ones you consider good buffers under 50$? The buffer at the beggining of the chain and the one at the last .... both need o be 1Mohms input and 100ohms output? Thanks in advance
Alberto, yes you really want to use that as a guideline. All those styles of buffers can all get you roughly where you want to go, or a hybrid of those buffers in some cases. There are some obvious drawback to BJT - they loose some output, and are never quite unity gain and can add some noise. This is a buffer you'd find in a Boss pedal typically. I generally prefer OPA and find you can get them more neutral than other types but I've seen great discrete buffers from other makers that can get a similar result. Nevertheless, 1M input and 100 ohm output is the best marker if you know nothing else about the buffer. There are some ways to cheat that a bit or run an OPA out of it's spec'd range but that's more rare. I think the best for the money is the Truetone Buffer, they're in our description with a link if you want to check it out and are $50 each. Yes buffer in the beginning - first and last.
@@VertexEffectsInc That is not what I meant. my laptop runs on a battery. When I plug it in I am still running on the battery .It is just that the A/C is topping up the battery while I am taking from it at the same time. My phone does the same thing. Why not do pedals. The worst case scenario would be to use 2 batteries and trigger them to switch for bigger rigs.
If I covered the bottom of the pedalboard where the under mounted Linear power supply sits with shielding tape, would this be enough to keep the EMF interference low enough to put pedals on the board above the power supply?
Isn't your board metal already? Because that would mean it'd be already shielded. Do take notice that a simple faraday cage (shielding everything) won't completely kill the EMI from the transformer. Shielding won't really do anything much to the magnetic fields (the M part in EMI). Since the enclosure of the power supply likely is metal already, the electric fields that get stopped by a faraday cage is already blocked by the enclosure. That being said, I've never really had any noise issues with bottom mounted power supplies. I believe it can be a problem don't get me wrong, but I think it's not really something worth stressing over before you notice it. Since it'll be 50/60 cycle hum, it's pretty recognisable when you do
Boosts, Scooped Drives like an SD-9, Rat, sometimes TS pedals can be good to tighten up bottom end. I also like the Lightspeed and Timmy into a Marshall.
@@VertexEffectsInc Timmy into British amps! I use one on my vox ac4c1. Favorite drive at least for my Vox. Was supposedly designed to boost Celeston speakers.
Ideally a buffer should have the same impedance on the input as your pickup and the same output impedance as your cable otherwise your have stationary waves
An certain myth that runs rampant at least here in Brazil: individual pedals sound better than multi-fx pedals. I've seen so many guitarrists with shitty pedals that sound like crap scoffing at zoom, line6 or Boss multi-fx pedals
It goes around here in the States as well and not just in music. The endless “analog vs digital” debate rages in the form of film vs digital cinema, tape vs digital recording, and (as I learned recently in theater) LED vs incandescent lighting for stage, video, and photography. It doesn’t matter how good the technology gets, there will always be people that cling to the “magic” and “warmth” of analog until it becomes prohibitively expensive and inaccessible. I’m not swayed either way, I have a mix of pedals including an HX stomp. But in my book practicality and affordability trumps everything else when both sides are audibly indistinguishable.
@@VertexEffectsInc Yeah, if you mean a real tube screamer would be better than a digital one, that's true. but that doesn't mean every pedal is good and any pedalboard setup can sound better than a any multi fx. I'm talking about some people prefer bad tone with real pedals than good(ish) tone with a multi-fx, and I've seen that happen lol
@@thebassrogue sure, but we're not talking about the pedals if we're talking about someone's tone being good or bad. Someone can have bad tone and great pedals. Someone that is a great player will sound good with a multi effects box for sure, doesn't mean the digital snapshot of an analog pedal will be better than the actual analog pedal itself. I think you can get good tones out of each, just not the same or maybe not as "what we're used to" when comparing to the analog reference.
A lot of this video comes across as the sales tactic of making you think what you have is inadequate and casting doubt on the quality of what is common. To be fair, I’m not accusing you of committing any type of fraud. The first two had the tone of “your connections are going to fail” and “your buffer is not good enough.” Your content is usually good. This just comes across a bit like a sales video.
I still don't understand how anyone can take that clown "The Tone King" seriously. Perfect example of "a guy" who pretends to be an expert, but he's an absolute embarrassment.
@@VertexEffectsInc Consider yourself lucky. If want an excuse to poke your eardrums out or light yourself on fire, just search for The Tone King here on YT. If you want a laugh while poking your eardrums out, watch him "perform" Detroit Rock City with Phil X in GuitCon video from a few years back.
@@ScottyBrockway No personal vendetta. TTK seems like a nice enough fellow. What I take issue with is his self-proclaimed expertise when all he is is a collector. He's a horrible player, he's horrible at dialing in tone, and plays the same things over and over and over again. And I brought him up only because Uncle Mason brought up people the difference between people who are knowledgeable and those who are "just a guy" and fundamentally not skilled and the latter is TTK.
I've never ever heard or seen anyone suggest increasing the voltage in order to improve the sound of an effect box, or for any reason for that matter. It sounds beyond stupid that anyone would fall for that, it just defies common sense. Kinda like plugging in an electrical appliance rated at 110 V to a 220 V grid to double its performance. Maybe I'm missing something though.
Some pedals can take more than their rated voltage. Fulltone's OCD can work with either 5, 9, 12 or 18 volts and that changes how it sounds. But, you have to know if the pedal can be over volted or undervolted. Some people like the sound of fuzz pedals when the battery is almost dying and will run the pedal at a lower voltage, for example.
Mason, thank you for all that you do. At my Boomer age I've purchased pedals and now want to build my own pedalboard! Your instructions are very clear and simple to follow! I've learned a lot from your posts! Keep on the great work!
This may have been an informative video, but these constant "Pop"-sounds were so incredibly annoying that I had to stop watching after 7 minutes. Unbearable.
Is the JHS Little Black Buffer within your preferred buffer range? What about their Prestige? I love the way the Prestige makes my strat sound, but you've really got me thinking more about my buffers lately...
You can see the recommended buffers that meet the minimum spec requirement in our description as well as a link to our DIY buffer which is also high quality.
@@kostis6 That's a good litmus test but there are ways to cheat it. This one is not one I recommend. They're running a TL072 out of spec to get the output Z that low, it's not ideal with anything under 1K with that OPA, which is also not ideal for the buffer. Again, refer to our recommendations list in the description.
I’m never buying solderless again. Either I suck at putting them together or they just get loose after time becaus they all pop and crackle and I have to readjust them regularly.
Check out our DIY soldering tutorial - shows the same cables we sell in our store on www.therigdr.com and how we do it, our materials, etc. If you want to save some dough but still have great cables, this is the move!
Amen brother! I finally put together my first pedalboard after years of wire spaghetti on the floor. The only problem I had was an old George-L patch cable that had been moved a few too many times.
I have a saturnworks buffer I run into before my boss es8.. how would you setup the es8 for this application? Should I get another buffer to run into after the es8 or can I go direct into my amp? Would the Saturnworks buffer be better at the end instead? Would you turn off the es8 buffers in the settings? Thanks so much Mason!
I don't know about these buffers or how they're made so I can't comment on the efficacy. Is it discrete, IC-based, etc. I see the specs on it are decent, but there are ways to cheat it or run parts out of spec to lower the output z that aren't great for the tone or stability of the circuit.
@@VertexEffectsInc which buffer are you talking.. the es8 or the Saturnworks? I checked your prerequisites with them and confirmed they meet your standard (the Saturnworks)(as I understand it). Any advise then about how you setup the es8? I've seen your builds in the past with the es8.. did you turn them off?
Hallelujah! This should be required watching before DIYing a board… Not a myth but I’d love to find a solution for using a wireless with certain vintage fuzz’s…admittedly I’m no rig Dr so ive never been able to offer a customer a solution
some interesting information, I didn't know the difference between a linear and a switching power supply. However, the very consequence of soldering will mean I will have a fully oxidated cable within weeks, no matter what solder, wetting agent, paste of flux is used.
I share all my grounds on my power supply with the grounds on my guitar cables. In a sense, this boosts the signal and makes you a better guitar player. You also won’t need to order one of those Boss Talent Simulator pedals. Hope this helps
He was a tone hound for sure, but most of this didn't exist for him to fret about. He was having Roger Mayer, his tech, hot rod his Marshalls, his pedals, certainly if the amount of information available then resembled today, he'd be down in this rabbit hole with the rest of us.
He had stacks of fuzzfaces, since the germanium ones would overheat on stage or just sound different night to night. Then he started using silicon ones.
Regarding Soldered vs. Solderless -- how do you feel about solderless cables for power? I am specifically thinking about the Distributor and Isolator devices from TheGigRig - how do you feel about the solderless connections at those devices?
I use a gigrig power system and it hasn’t failed me yet and everything sounds quite nice I must say. Just in case Mason isn’t familiar with the system the part that is solder less is the end of cable that connects to the isolation and distribution, not the end connecting to the barrel pin connecting to the pedal. In my experience I haven’t had a single problem. And being that I don’t solder, I can cut every cable perfectly to length and my board is nice and neat. I’d say it’s great for someone building their own rig. And if you expand your board at some point the gigrig system is modular and can grow with you over time.
@@imacashew. I also use the Distributor and Isolator without issue, and love the way the wires are connected. While I did ask Mason about this, his response wasn't specific enough to sway me away from them. I've also had zero problems.
I’ve got my caline 12 spots all used up or 10 at least and I’m suffering from power/sound loss sometimes and some folk say I got too many pedals - how is this possible to max out what it’s made for??
For the ideal buffer I would rather say that it should have input impedance same as the guitar pickup (if you're not considering other pedals), and output impedance 0Ω. But yes better have higher input impedance rather than lower so 1Meg it's ok, and it's impossible to have 0Ω output so lower the better. And there is also frequency response to consider because it shapes the sound too.
We're matching to our references right? The amp loading is always 1M for most tube amps, so we're emulating that in the input Z, output Z is really about delivering the sound that's built on the pedalboard back to the amp with as little degradation as possible. The closer to 0 ohms the better, but reasonably 100 ohms is a good baseline, but not the only factor. There are conditions were circuits can be unstable running them that low on the output impedance. This is a general baseline that will help folks assess the quality of their buffers.
I don't think impedance matching has been standard practice in the audio world for a long time. Generally, since maximum power transfer is not a concern with low power signals and with signal fidelity taking precedence, inputs have a high impedance so they don't draw excessive current from the source; especially with every guitar pickup having a different inductive reactance, making it impossible to make an input that matches with every guitar. To do it properly for just one guitar, it would need to use an inductor with the same inductance and DC resistance characteristics of the pickups. Maximum power transfer is a thing when dealing with power amplification, but I don't remember why we no longer match amplifier impedance to the speaker load anymore. Tube amps are impedance matched, but as far as I know, solid state amps (not just for guitars) do better with an output impedance as low as possible. This may have something to do with frequency response.
Hi. Thanks for your very informative videos. I have used a Line6 G30 pedal board receiver for many years and before anyone shouts at me, I can detect no lag or tone degradation. I can even emulate a couple of different cable lengths if I want. My question is, will this remove the need for an input buffer? I already have a buffer/splitter/isolator on the output. Cheers, Mason.
Hi Mason.....great show as always......questions from a newbie.....what is a MEG? And are audio cables the patch cables between pedals or the cables that go into the power supply.....thanks a lot.
So quick question.... assuming you know how and what the King Tone Duellist does ....what Vertex pedal would you pair it with ?...and I know it depends on what you're looking for , tone wise ...but I'm simply looking for diversity ....maybe a fuzz ?...thx
My understanding is that pedal is a Tube Screamer and Blues Breaker in one pedal. If you want to go more lower gain, I'd go Steel String, if you want to go higher gain I'd go Ultraphonix.
Hey Mason, great video as always. Do you have any opinion on Saturnworks Pedals? I own and use their dual parallel blender with 2 buffered loops , and in/ out . I have used this pedal to combine the two halves of my pedalboard with about 4-5 pedals in each loop, and have really felt like the buffers are fantastic! However, it’s also hard to know if it’s any good compared to others on the market, as I’ve never really heard anyone talk about them in any videos. Love the content by the way , keep up everything you do as it’s very inspiring.
I don’t know much about them we there is not much information on them or the specs. I would reference the description in this video for our known high quality buffers that we’ve vetted.
@@VertexEffectsInc thank you for the reply. I’ve been lookin for a type of junction box/patch bay to put the last cherry on top for my own pedalboard and your recommendations couldn’t have been better 🤘🏼
With regards to cables, do the jacks play a significant factor in the sound as well? I use mogami 2319 to make my cables but use generic jacks and they seem ok in terms of sound.
Jacks have a capacitance, so they can have an impact, but generally it's unnoticed. I typically focus more on the quality of the jack and the right application. I wouldn't use a Neutrik jack on a pedalboard as as inter connector. It's too large and robust for a sedentary location and has very high capacitance. 2x Neutrik plugs have more capacitance than a few feet of Mogami cable, so you'd have more capacitance in plugs than cable in this situation. I generally will use SquarePlugs on the pedalboard, and then use the more robust plugs off the pedalboard to connect the guitar and amplifier to the pedalboard.
@@BrunodeSouzaLino depends on the number of connections and the quality of the signal conditioning. Treat it the same as it would be adding length of cable to each connection. Some of the higher capacitance plugs are equal to anywhere from 2-5 feed of medium capacitance cable.
Pedal knowledge is NEVER to be compared to a heart surgeons knowledge🤦🏻♂ 1. Gas tight=full of hot air, soldered vs not is a simple matter of DURABILITY, all else is total BS 2. A buffer should be a simple transparent colorless device to optimise and equalize gain structure, measure the voltage coming out of your guitar cable and then measure the voltage coming out of your last pedal cable before amp and they should match buffer or no buffer, everything else is convoluted BS 3. Linear PSU are better if they are engineered properly, switchmode can be noisy if not engineered correctly(most are not), linear supply is better than switching when both are at their best 4. Use shielded electronics in guitars and cables if you are a serious musician otherwise don't worry about it 5. The best voltage is what's required by the circuit, in fact starving a circuit of voltage can cause desirable slew aka variac down on amps, voltage in excess on a circuit can and will cause damage, lack of voltage will NEVER cause damage to a circuit unless the circuit is junk to begin with
I have a couple of comments to make, mainly to level the playing field. I think it is unfair to rate one type of piece of kit over the other purely based on the technology used; I'll explain. Whilst I agree that not are buffers are the same, one type of IC over another does not present a better or worse scenario as you indicate. The buffer circuit works as part of the complete electronic circuit and system based on numerous variables right from the guitar through to the speaker, and at the end of the day, it is what the guitarist using the equipment deems is best to their ears based on the interaction of all of these parts. As an experienced electrical engineer working in the field of EMC for many years, I can categorically state that the claim you make pertaining to linear PSU all causing interference/noise is incorrect. Much like the statement of buffers, not all linear PSU are created equally (many high end audiophile amps still use these). With good shielding and filtering techniques adopted in the PSU design, the claims you make are unjustified. Conversely, the advent of switch mode power supplies (SMPS) has been the catalyst to the EMC standards and Directives changing significantly to cope with the detrimental effects the plethora of SMPS devices in every day life now pose. Equally a well designed SMPS with adequate filtering can be a great device; however, a great number of devices generate EMI, conducted harmonic content, and other unwanted adverse phenomena, all potentially producing a poor power supply/audio experience. I am not knocking your knowledge in building great pedal boards, or the general good advice on cable dressing, etc, but the very thing you set out to expose at the beginning of your video you are guilty of yourself! Perhaps it would have been better to state that not all are technologies are created equal, and avoided images of companies products and categorising them as an inferior technology based on your opinion? BTW, I do like your Boost pedal! :)
Mr. Dude! Thanks for watching. Using a TL072 as a buffer IC chip is a terrible choice you can see this obviously from the output current and it's instability to be run under 1K. The TL0 chips in general are very colorful, and are great in certain applications - but the most common application I see it used in buffers is desegregating the Klon buffer and using the "if, then" fallacy. If the Klon is a great overdrive, then the buffer must be the "Klon" of buffers. It doesn't work that way. A buffer, all things being equal, should be neutral. No color, no tone change. There is more than one way to get there, IC-based, Class A, Discrete, etc. Nothing I say here disqualifies that fact other than saying the TL072 is a poor choice for a buffer IC chip. With regard to linear supplies, most of them have no shielding. With exception to the Voodoo Lab Pedal Power and Pedal Power 2/2+ they all use aluminum chassis because the larger supplies like the 4x4 and Mondo use the chassis as a heat sink because of the increased current and voltage requirements. There is no more electromagnetic shielding in this case, and it's very easy to determine the field by taking a single coil pickup and attaching it to a quarter in jack and moving it over the power supply. Furthermore, the more current you draw agains the supply, the more the field intensifies and expands. So if your rig is using 1.5A of a total 1.5A from the supply and you have your cables and digital effects in the magnetic field, you have a problem - and many do. There are some brands that do a better job of dealing with this that manufacture linear supplies, CIOKS comes to mind as the exception, but generally, in our industry there is no shielding in these higher power linear supplies. No mumetal plates around the C-Core, R-Core, or Toroid (in fact most of the toroidal transformers that are claimed to be used in most of these power supplies are more semi-toroid). With respect to switch mode supplies, there are some awful ones, I agree. However, if you've watched our channel at any length, I think you'll see we got to great lengths to distinguish and recommend products that meet the criteria. When talking about switch mode power supplies, we test them all in the field and with instrumentation to ensure that any high frequency switching is well out of the audio range and not going to be problematic on a pedalboard. We have a recommended list in each description in every video to outline our approved products that we've tested and vetted for studio and stage. Sure, we can find outliers in switch mode supplies that are non-optimal, just as can we find linear supplies that have diminished the electromagnetic field with proper shielding to avoid noise and can be placed under a pedalboard without much risk. These are the exception, and not the rules.
all i can say is i had a mondo and my rig was noisey as f....now with a zuma its dead quiet...switch style or not...this was my #1 upgrade to my rig to keep em quiet!!!
@@VertexEffectsInc Wow, and I thought I wrote a lengthy post! :). OK, buffers have different relative meaning from one person to the next; restoring certain frequencies back to the original signal and the preferred perceived audio 'overall' interaction with other pedals circuit differs from one persons ear to another. It's purely subjective, putting the technicalities aside, and hence the phrase 'not all buffers are created equally' has more than one interpretation. You may be right about the application of the TL072 in some applications but a blanket statement about one pedal in particular is again a little unjustified when I am sure there are a great number of knowledgeable people who may disagree with your opinion based on their own opinion; again it a a subjective thing (tele's are better than strats, aren't they?). Great, you have now mentioned that some linear PSU are well designed and function perfectly well. You may be correct in reference to the with SMPS audio frequency range but how about the conducted harmonic content? A poor supply can have a detrimental effect on even its own integral components in time. How about using an oscilloscope with a good memory depth and FFT to interrogate the differences with the two PSU types (not showing or naming brands) and do a video based on the effects with some real data? Sure you can hover a single coil pick over a PSU and gauge the audible effects, but the pick up (by the nature of its design), is a magnetic sensitive device (with a specific inductive reactance) unlike a cable which is, by nature of its design, a simple and crude device (some are awesome sounding in the right guitar/rig!); it will interact in a certain physical way due to the physical nature of the emissions; a SMPS has its own set of detrimental emission characteristics too. The point I'm trying to make (and just look at the comments this video has already provoked along the lines of, 'is my PSU OK, should I now do this, or buy that?') tells me a few people are now unsettled in believing what they have is no good (it might be perfectly suitable for them, and they were happy before this video). I'm all for sharing knowledge and raising awareness, but with power comes great responsibility (excuse the pun!). I'll finish on I think you do provide some great info and interesting video content, keep it up! Cheers!
@@diatonicdude5290 A perfect sound quality is not subjective. Even among the real engineers (not just hacks like me), they are told to cut costs to the max, TLO fits the bill (may even cross over with other models in their product line) and is "usable" with 1K series R. However, that affects other qualities, a compromise, a tradeoff, but CHEAP! A TL07x series does have the same problems I mentioned. TI has also stated it in literature for devices that are superior that they make, and it is written about in technical journals. However, for guitar world, with very limited bandwidth, high distortion in all devices, etc. a TLO can work as do cheap OPAs like 4558, 741, etc., but if you want a true, neutral, transparent, linear, stable, non-distortion, high output current, etc. buffer, then you have to look elsewhere. Almost all guitar pedals do not need or want that, they prefer some non-linearities and this is where the subjective part comes in. If it is not truly transparent, neutral, etc. then it comes down to what flavor do you like - but that's not really what a buffer is...at that point that it's a color it's a unity gain booster. I invite you to setup the proper test gear and start running the some simple tests. A simple test might be to put a square wave in, add capacitance to the output and see what happens. Then increase the drive level and watch it get worse with level. Then add series resistance to see what it takes to make it stable under the worst expected conditions and then you will see why you'll need a 1K outpoint on a TL072. Even without output capacitance, just overdrive the input and watch it change polarity. That's right, it will flip polarity when overdriven! Then you can measure the distortion up to 20K while doing these tests - THD and IMD. There is so much more, but I think you get the point. Yes OPAs can sound different under the best of conditions. Run them outside of the spec limits of a particular OPA and it gets worse, much worse. It might even be bad enough to be able to sell as a distortion pedal in some cases. Most of us know that the OPA makes a difference when you swapped them around on a socketed overdrive device. Most of us also know a lot of the sounds of certain distortion pedals (like the ProCo RAT) is due to the OPA used. Buffers should not be distortion generators. A true buffer should not do anything other than buffer without adding any artifacts. On the power supply end, as for the "conducted harmonic content" - that is only with garbage power supplies. Decent power supplies have high quality, low ESR, high frequency capacitance and regulators in this case. This will filter out any undesirable noise from the line. As for "using an oscilloscope with a good memory depth and FFT to interrogate the differences with the two PSU types" - why cast such a wide net? When we're talking about what instrumentation is needed and test procedures, shouldn't we look at what is required? What specs are needed and not speak in generalizations? It is the magnetic field leakage that you seem to be your misunderstanding from what I've said here as it relates to a pedalboard and power supply noise. There are a lot of power supplies claiming to have toroids, but they are not really - as I said before (they're actually semi toroid, C Core, or R Cord). A toroid has to have these qualities: a round, not oval, magnetic core, and that is not nearly enough. It has to have equal winds fully 360 degree around this magnetic core or it leaks magnetic field. Also any hold down material down the center can cause spurious leakage. If the center hold down bolt is magnetic material, it has to be perfectly centered or will cause issues. Non-magnetic stainless steel (not all stainless steel is non-magnetic by the way, there are many different stainless steel grades). Heck, even then, a toroid leaks, it just does so in a controlled manner and at a low level on axis of the hole where a steel chassis or steel can control it. The advantage of the horizontal magnetic field is null, so sensitive electronics on that plane will not see any magnetic field. Now, are the sintered oval cores better than EI cores as far as magnetic leakage, yes! Is a round sintered "toroid" magnetic core like used on a toroid transformer without even distribution of wires better than EI core, definitely! But, are these toroids - NO! Even though many brands market as such - they are NOT true toroids!
@@VertexEffectsInc Hey Mason, I didn't intend/expect this to go so deep, and please don't get disgruntled in anyway. Talking of buffers, of course a perfect sound quality is subjective (within reason)! As I said, putting the technical reasoning to one side, the ultimate acid test is the user preference in respect to their whole rig; this is my main point! You can't tell them which is better for their personal listening pleasure/experience . To reiterate, of course not all buffers are made equal; a variable to this circuit is some may prefer coiled guitar leads to straight, or purposely use longer leads with greater capacitance because they prefer the sound! Its that simple! I don't think it is correct to tell people what they should prefer, or dismiss this or that based on what op amp is used. On the subject of the OP amp, not all are made equal either, and I'm talking of the same type from the same manufacture! During my working life I have found that manufacturers value engineer their devices over time, typically reducing substrate thickness, etc, which results in a different performing device. 9/10 times they won't change any of their spec info to reflect this. For example the modern 4558 JRC Op amp is not the same as the 80's JRC production. Does it sound better/worse, or even noticeably different? Well that's also subjective! Why go off on a tangent into the toroid subject (of course sensitive electronic components will be affected by a magnetic field, it is not null from a toroid in the horizontal plane because it is physics!)? The main point I am trying to make again is that not all PSUs are made equal, and just because someone has a linear type (regardless of the technology used) doesn't mean it is any worse/better than a SMPS. You actually finally eluded to this yourself (both types can be well designed, or not, as the case may be). For info, I actually bought and used one of the SMPS models from one of the manufacturers you highlighted, and it was terribly noisy when used with modulation pedals! Ironically, I now use another SMPS (I have a good linear PSU on another board too) because of the advantage of size, capacity, performance and price! That's all! This is not meant to be some of of tech cock fight; I am purely dismissing your claim and generalisation that one technology is better over another technology because, as you know, that is not the case in all cases (and lets face it you have some influence over what people may buy or making them believe they are using something inferior). Why not simply say, 'Hey, this specific PSU comes highly recommended because its an excellent design, and proven to be so in my experience, and from the feedback of satisfied customers of my pedal boards!'? You may be trying to myth bust, but controversially, you could also be introducing a misconception that could unjustifiably taint certain manufacturers products and ultimately affect their business. To finish with, it may be interesting to watch today's 'That Pedal Show' video, 'Are gear reviews pointless?'. From what I can make out, it will be myth busting episode in its own right. I think it may go along the lines of what we are talking about here in some respect, that subjective perception and other variables all play a part. Take care Mason, and I for one, do appreciate your contribution to our community!
I am an electronics engineer that is new to guitars and guitar gear. I must say the amount of myths ans false information when taking about guitar gear really blew me away. alot of it is perpetuated by manufactures so the can sell you over spec'd gear so you end up spending a lot more money than you really need to. This channel is spot on though with its advice being the best I have found on youtube. keep up the good work
Doesn't matter if you like the guy or not, there is no denial that this is just good information given freely by a knowledgeable person. Thanks a lot for this. Also, one question: does 18v increase the noise floor on overdrives/eqs also? I always heard people say the opposite: 18v increases headroom and lowers the noise floor. I have 3 pedals that take 18v (Cmats Signa Drive, Cmats Ratified and Wampler Equator), and I always run them at 18v "just because". I read everywhere on the internet that these Cmats pedals at 18v sound better, have more headroom, are more dynamic and with better note separation. Aside from the headroom, do you think that there is any grounds to claim that pedals become "clearer" and with better "note definition" at 18v? To be really honest I can't say I noticed any difference ever. Also, regarding the Equator, Wampler claims it is designed to "sound best" in 9v, but I just can't see how this could be true. I also run it at 18v "just because". Herd behavior is real...
Hope you enjoy the video. 18V typically increases the noise floor. Headroom also goes up. You may run them in conditions where you don't need the headroom to get the sound you want. There is no reason to run it at 18 if you don't have to or you aren't getting a more desirable tone if the pedal can still operate on 9V based on its design.
I like the idea of debunking myths but YOU ARE COMPLETELY WRONG about Switch mode and Linear power supplies. Switch mode supplies are fundamentally noisier than linear power supplies because they are switching during the regulation process at frequencies between 100Khz-1MHz. This switching noise, its harmonics and subharmonics, can be reduced but it is costly to add the supression components. Linear supplies do not switch their input voltage to regulate their output, thus they do not generate switching noise. Additionally if they have a gapless toroidal transformer a linear supply will generate less field than a cut core transformer. Simple circuit layout and a metal box will be sufficient to shield the 60Hz field noise of a linear supply transformer. With the high frequencies generated in a switching supply the enclosure needs to be continuous at the seams and the ac input and dc outputs need supression at the switching frequencies. So why are switching supplies popular? COST and efficiency, In consumer electronics price of manufacture and sale is most important to maximize profit. That being said I DO AGREE that solderless cables are much less desirable than soldered so i do appreciate your info on those.
I'm sure you're right but after watching this, I replaced my voodoo labs power supply with the Strymon Zuma and my noisy cramped pedal board became quiet
Donald, if you're looking at two supplies in our field - guitar based products and accessories - that have equal number of outputs, voltage ranges, and current output that are the best examples in their respective classes of switch mode and linear, then the linear will NOT be superior, in particular, if you're looking at what shows up in the audio range. I think many critics here of switch mode supplies are taking poor examples of these style supplies and putting them up against a gold standard linear powers supply - that's an easy straw man to knock down. If you put a Strymon Zuma ($249.99) against a Pedal Power Mondo ($279.99) it's pretty easy to see why you'd want to go with a switch mode supply practically. The Zuma less than one-third of the size, has more voltage options, more current per output, can work in any country in the world, and can be placed anywhere on the pedalboard without consequence of noise or risk of the magnetic field interfering with your pedals with ZERO noise in the audio range from the supply. The Mondo, by contrast, has no consequential electromagnetic shielding - fully aluminum chassis (which most linear supplies have that are putting out as much current and voltage options as the Mondo because they use the chassis as a heatsink). As a result, this supply causes noise if you get your pedals too close to it (or even your patch leads), or dare I say, put it under your pedalboard like most DIY folks do on a Pedaltrain or similar style board. You've put your pedals in the path of the magnetic field and the more current you draw against the supply the more intensified the field becomes. Now you can place the Mondo on a board in a way where it's going to be objectively equal in performance to the Zuma without any noise risk in an equal environmental condition. However, it will command more space, a larger pedalboard if you're using the same number of effects on a rig as you would with a Zuma as your PSU. Your routing and pedal placement will also have to consider the magnetic field - again needing more space on the board to distance the supply from the pedals. Coming full circle to the practicality stand point, I don't see how this is advantageous to someone building a rig in 2021 with a choice between these two supplies all things being equal. The biggest thing that I think you're discounting here about linear supplies (along with some other critics here in the comments section) is you underestimate the magnetic field leakage and the fact that most of these linear supplies aren't actually toroidal transformers even though they say they are, and as a result don't have the same benefits. A true toroid has to have these qualities: a round, not oval, magnetic core and even that isn't enough. It has to have equal winds fully (360 degrees) around this magnetic core or it "leaks" magnetic field. Also, any hold down material down the center can cause spurious leakage. If the center hold down bolt is magnetic material, it has to be perfectly centered or will cause issues. Non-magnetic stainless steel (not all stainless steel is non-magnetic by the way, there are many different stainless steel grades) - even then, a toroid leaks, it just does so in a controlled manner and at a low level on axis of the hole where a steel chassis or steel can control it. The advantage is the horizontal magnetic filed is null, so sensitive electronics on that plane will not see any magnetic field. I have seen it done wrong with some major manufacturers power supplies that actually defeats the expensive toroid altogether.
I have no idea if this is why, but it’s my best guess: Less voltage means a less clean sound. The best example of this would be 70’s guitarists purposely using dying batteries in their fuzz pedals
I've read a bunch of descriptions for power supplies online, none of them mentions switch or linear. All of them claim to be 'isolated' and 'noise free'. From a £20 to £250. How am I going to find this out prior to purchase if manufacturers do not include this information? Or am I let to go though countless forums looking for the information? It shouldn't be that difficult to state this in the product description.
There will be clues in the description. Looking on Sweetwater at the CS12 and Zuma, for example, you see switch-mode, switchable, and worldwide in the description. The Voodoo specifically says in its description that it has a toroidal transformer.
DO NOT EVEN THINK ABOUT messing with voltage (idiocy). Manufacturers specifications are printed for very good reasons. Increasing voltage is NOT something to be encouraged in any circumstance.
B+ running cables together it's the only one I got wrong. I figured out the 18v with an sp comp . Moving the goal post is a good analogy. More noise because I had to dime it to get it to compress to my liking.
I found out 18V wasn’t always optimal with the exact same pedal, funny enough. The manual tells you to try it at 18V, but I couldn’t get rid of a certain low, but very present hum until I set it back to 9V then it worked as it should.
@@atonofspiders of all the pedals I have that can use 18 none actually sound better. More headroom is usually the opposite of what i want especially with comp.
I’m confused: when you were talking about linear power supplies causing interference and explaining that you mount them up top away from pedals you show a shot of the the True Tone supply - but earlier you classify those power supplies as Switching types (which wouldn’t cause interference). Can you clarify?
I think it was just showing a power supply in the video...our editors aren't technical and I didn't catch the discrepancy. The Truetone is switch mode to be clear.
I have some early 1980s DOD pedals that use 1/8 in plugs I have a old DOD power supply but it is not isolated What can I use Will it make too much noise if I use the DOD and use Boss psa120 for my other Boss pedals thanks
You can buy 1/8" cables from Voodoo Lab to use with any normal power supply. The 1/8" is just a different barrel size, it won't change the noise floor using a supply with a 2.1mm barrel size. You'll just need an adaptor or a new cable to go to your power supply.
The reason why running DC power cables next to audio cables is ok while doing the same with AC will cause noise is because DC cables produce a steady magnetic field while AC doesn't. The magnetic field produced by a cable is proportional to the current flow and changes directions when the flow changes direction such as when AC oscillates. Noise is caused by the magnetic field inducing a current in another wire (your audio cable) that is inside the field, but current is only induced if the magnetic field is changing. DC field doesn't really change, but AC oscillates at 60Hz (or 50Hz depending on your grid), so DC will not induce noise into your other cables, but AC will.
True except if your DC supply goes out of regulation and induces a ripple on the output. You'll get a lower magnitude AC ripple that could be induced on any nearby audio cable. But a good supply should maintain regulation up to the maximum current.
Would love a video comparing different buffer input/output impedances. Don't know how entertaining it would be, but something like the cable test video with expert opinions on how the buffers affect the overall tone.
Thx mason There’s some hate around you I was hesitant at first But I dig your work and love your pedals You clearly have passion and dedication to this I’m a lifer in music make it or break it I’m having a blast Thx man Bout to build my first pro pedal board 🙏🙏🙏
Mason, you hit so many targets here that on my sofa, I had to just pause and start writing you a message: right on Mason! on buffers and so many points, nothing but underlining and confirming as to what you said is so true. I could time stampt 10 points that you just gave away to the public, in one word: good job! Hello from Finland
