Using REW will show you how your Subwoofer performs in a location in your room. You may not have liked a subwoofer in the corner. But it may or may not have been better in the corner depending on your room dimensions and seating position.
@@C--A It was too boomy in the corner. Placing it in a more open area got rid of the loose boomy effect. Now it performs very well for both music and movies.
Thanks for this! I used the two sub placement you recommend and it was an instant improvement. The bass sounds great. It fills the room and has fairly consistent output across the sub range
the problem with moving one sub to the corner and moving say the left main speaker in it will get in the way of the screen ... that is why most put the SUB , CENTER , SUB config because it fits under the screen , .. unless you have enough room to move the subs out and mains in more
Is it true that achieving an even decay time across the frequency spectrum is also relevant to achieving a natural and tight sub bass response? I’d like to learn more about the relationship between a flat response and decay time if that’s relevant.
great presentation to the overview of multi-sub! I've also seen stacking subwoofers being more and more popular, can this be the topic to discuss if it's actually beneficial?
If you stack in multiple locations like front and rear corner for example it wont sound as over bearing from one location. I prefer to run my 4 one in each corner.
I'm just curious what would happen if you ran each sub out of phase with the other. I have a smaller, narrow room and placement problems. To be honest I'm probably not what most of you would consider anything like an audiophile and I'm generally happy with my configuration so I'm just curious what running the subs counter-phased would do.
Adjusting phase is a good way of making a more linear response between multi subs and with speakers. But listen to the result for timing issues that don't show up in bass sweep measurement
Sorry to say that placing four subs in each corner of a room is the least effective method of getting value for money, but you probably have little or less experience in handling low frequencies in a room with either Stereo or Multichannel setup.......
Sorry to say you're mistaken. The research is well established and peered on the physics of sound and room modes. www.audioholics.com/room-acoustics/optimum-locations-for-subwoofers-in-rectangular-rooms
@@Nickceid Γεια σου Νίκο. Χαιρετισμούς και χρόνια πολλά. Σε ευχαριστώ για τις θερμές ευχές. Τι τρομερή ιστορία που έχουμε για την ακουστική τέχνη. Είναι μεγάλη μου τιμή που έχω την ευκαιρία να προσφέρω ότι μπορώ εδώ.
@@TheoNicolakis Χρονια πολλα επισης ! Το βιντεο σου ηταν παρα πολυ χρησιμο και επικαιρο για μενα καθως θελω να προσθεσω στο συστημα μου ακομη ενα sb3000 και λογω μη πολλων επιλογων στην τοποθετηση σκεφτομουν την διαταξη Sub Center Sub αλλα τωρα θα πειραματιστω λιγο παραπανω. Ο χωρος ακροασης βεβαια ειναι εκ των πραγματων δυσκολος κ ανομοιομορφος, καθως εντασεται στον μισο τμημα ενος παραλληλογραμμου χωρου (συνολο 8mΧ 3.5 m) , καθως στο αλλο μισο υπαρχει τραπεζαρια κ χολ. Για να σε βοηθησω οι θεσεις θα ηταν περιπου στα 6/10 και 9/10 της συνολικης μεγαλης πλευρας του παραλληλογραμμου. Μεχρι στιγμης με ενα sub στη γωνια εχω ενα null στα 70 hz που δεν μπορω να το ξεφορτωθω με τιποτα. Οποιαδηποτε συμβουλη τοποθετησης ευπροσδεκτη :)
@@Nickceid let me kick to English if I can. One thing you can try if you have the ability is to move the subwoofer out into the room a bit and not simply up against the wall. When you do that and if you have the ability take measurements you will hopefully be able to address the null you have at 70 Hz. When I’m doing something like that I typically use my Anthem pre-pro and use ARC. Mark has a really cool feature called quick measure that gives you a real time analysis of the speaker or sub placement. You can then move the speaker or sub to different places and see the frequency response changes.
In a rectangular room it depends on which corners as well as their distances to the listening position ;-) REW has a simulator than comes pretty close at the results I get when measuring.
There's always a doorway or something making ideal conditions impossible. Whoever is designing home floor plans doesn't get it! Unless you purchase a custom built home with theater space, these kinds of videos only add to the frustration of working with what we have.
No doubt. For those who don’t know or have the time to learn REW, I recommend using a strong playlist of songs to help play the room and following some of these general guidelines. It can get you quite a way towards the goal.
I have two identical subs mid wall Placement.A pro told me that nowadays it pretty common two have Them 180° and 0° phase. I use Dirac Bass Control and did a new measurment with different Phase settings.Whats your opinion?😊
Optimizing sub placement is quite contrary to most people’s sense of symmetry whilst being paramount to auditory bliss. As proven in this video, it’s not the cost or quality of equipment so much as it is physics. Once subs are optimized into a virtual sub, it is imperative the other channels are phase aligned with it. Successfully accomplished, imaging and detail make one’s cinema room seem much larger because the sound is so big.
In the 90 ish days, we did just one Sub for the entire room, now we have better Codecs, able to hear where it comes from. If you place the Sub behind the screen in the centre, it a perfect position too, not needing dual subs!
@@lucasrem You didn't watch the video? It is unlikely that one sub placed front centre can be optimal as it will be symmetrically placed between your main speakers - and also the codecs have nothing to do with localising low frequencies. You can find a lot of relevant and correct material on the relevant acoustics online, just look for Earl Geddes, Floyd E. Toole and Todd Welti.
It was a hard lesson to learn that what looked good did not measure well. I decided to keep my nice looking symmetrical sub-center-sub front but added two more subs in the rear room corners. Flat response at every seat now!
There is no question aesthetics and symmetry sometimes play a role. I think we need to give a nod to Denon and Marantz for bucking the aesthetic trend to show the better practice.
Why would anyone want to put the bass between their left right and center channels? All that does is create more low end soundwaves between your left right and center channels which will distort the mix. Put them on the outside of your L/R speakers.
Theo! Great to hear from you man! I love seeing you on live streams too buddy you’re very insightful. I can’t tell you how many home theaters I’ve setup and calibrated where once I properly place the multi subs the client goes “Holy crap” even years ago when I added a MiniDSP HD to my 4 sub setup it was a moment of clarity.
Thanks Joseph 😁. Isn’t it just beyond words when the subs just “snap” into place? It’s a magical moment and compels you to listen to your favorite songs all over again.
Wayne, Using three subs is always an option. If you corner load two of the subs you can put the third one at the midpoint of the opposite wall as a general rule. Anthony Grimani talks about this in one of his videos on the channel here if I’m not mistaken. The main point being that the addition of 2, 3, or four subs helps you get rid of nulls that you otherwise can’t EQ and improve the bass performance across multiple seats.
@@TheoNicolakis thank you sir. That's exactly how I have it. The third is behind my seat. When you talk about the subs being on either side of the centre, is it more to do with distance or placement?
@@wayneiceman what you’re really doing is playing the room. A theme I like to reiterate is that the speakers and room are an organic whole. The whole point is that what looks good (what we see in photos for marketing) may not sound good in actuality. Consequently one may be leaving peak performance on the table.
i have a 2.2 system and had my setup Main-Sub-Amp-Sub-Main... i moved one of my subs from in board to the corner wall to the side... the improvement was significant, tighter, fuller and not as much gain needed... thank you
Another Great Video Thanks. Opposite Corners Front and Rear gives me best response in my room by a long way. Ive pulled them away from the Corner a few feet when adjusting final set up.
those nulls in the sub center sub is NOT related to placement of the center channel... it's because when you separate LF sources, you introduce natural cancellation and comb filtering.
Good video. I used the REW room simulator to find the general areas which would produce the best frequency response. Worked great and also reduced the bass decay time as well.
Half of this is a waste if you aren't time aligning the subs. The best "unaligned" response is not necessarily the same as the best "aligned" response you can get. Your worst response could even be the best position if you have to flipp phase on one (or multiple).
It does not sound good. When I moved my two SB3000 subs out and away from my gear, placing one some ten feet away beside a couch and the other in the L shaped room kitty corner into the short leg of the L in a corner, say twenty inches off the wall at an angle, and then played around with phase and what not, the sound is incredible. I have a mic somewhere, and I need to find that and apply the REW software. But quite honestly, it sounds very very good the way it is, but I am sure I could get better sound with REW.
There is no question that some of this subwoofer center channel subwoofer placement is for marketing. It’s an easy way to showcase three different products in one shot, it looks great to the eye, and it’s symmetrical. In some cases, where an enthusiast is doing this type of configuration, the two subwoofers are too close to each other and will tend to act more like a single sub. It’s exactly because of the proliferation of such images that we wanted to take the opportunity to bring this topic to the forefront.
My YAMAHA RX-A3070 has 2 separate subwoofer outs, I use monaural x2 configuration, whilst running a sound generator for LFE, I set the first of my 4 subs up into my listening position, then did at 3 different levels of height, the subwoofer crawl, first on my knee's and hand's, then on my knee's and finally standing up, taking note of best bass positioning, placed one sub at a time in the appropriate position, each sub then running in conjunction with listening position sub, subwoofer crawl each time until last sub in listening position had a place to live, determined by the last subwoofer crawl, out of the 4 subs only one is on the floor, two at waist height and the last one at chest height, I have a near perfect bass curve, my 4k dedicated atmos set up, is in an open plan living area, that is a big area, with no regular shape to it all, but I've made it work so well, THANKS to sites like this AUDIOHOLICS and a few others on RU-vid. 👏👏👏
Overview videos like this are great for beginners (they helped me out when I was getting started a couple years ago) but I would also like to see some deeper dive videos. How about a video showing how to use MSO (Multi Sub Optimizer) to optimize seat to seat bass consistency? How about a video showing how to time align the subs to the other speakers (using REW maybe)?
Thanks for the suggestions. Please keep them coming. I’ll be doing more such omvideos on the channel and I know Gene will see your suggestions that I think are excellent. Time aligning the subs can make a key difference in maximizing performance.
I learned enough REW to allow me to properly use Multi Sub Optimizer. It’s a great tool that delivers what would be very difficult to do with REW alone. Once you get the process down, you can find the best placement and then optimize the listening area.
@@scott1063 I've actually used both MSO and REW but I learned from random tutorials I found by people I don't know or trust. Just hoping to see videos from the experts at Audioholics so I can double check that everything I did was correct and to see if they have any tips or best practices I don't know about.
Unfortunately for me I don’t have options for optimal sub placement. My 2 subs are in the front next to each floor speaker. The left one feels more oomph lol while the left one is noticeably weaker and it’s annoying
The slight bit of increase in total output by moving one to the corner would be outweighed by the unbalance created and loss of symmetry in the sound stage.
What is the official Audioholics verdict on measuring subs with the oldschool Radioshack SPL? I've read that a sub reading of 72 is equivalent to 75. I did my measurement to 72db with both subs on, but should I measure them one at a time? Thanks!
I’ll kick it to Gene for his opinion, but I am a big fan of the RadioShack SPL and still have one. It’s a great tool and have no qualms with anyone continuing to use it. My personal opinion would be if you are looking to measure all your speakers to the same SPL the RadioShack works just great. If you are looking to use tools like REW then I would suggest investing in one of the standard USB microphones. If that’s not an option then just take care to calibrate your sound card with the RadioShack SPL meter.
I ended up doing a lot of REW runs to find the best spots for my Loft system. While it is basically rectangular, the back is open to a 10,000+ cu ft open plan below it, and one side is open to a 40 ft long hallway. I ended up at roughly 1/4 and 3/4 on the uninterrupted side wall for the most even response at the 3 seat MLP couch. Unusual layouts just take more work to figure out, but it can be done.
Because sub-woofers are an extension of your main 2 stereo speakers, I have the subs mounted on top of 18 inch metal stands. The main 2 stereo speakers sit on top of the subs with a combination of metal and rubber conical feet. There is no vibration reaching the stereo speakers.
I get it but there’s not many rooms that are the same they are all so picky even if it is rectangular like you said depending on furnishing and length and width they will get a whole different measurement so this isn’t really a guide per say. Tho sticking to some of the principles may work out with some peoples rooms. The good old sun crawl trumps this
What a difference between the theory and real world practice, right? The research helps us narrow some things down and hopefully gives us the tools to fine-tune things or know how to address some of the particulars of our setups. One thing that I’ve learned over the years is that learning your room over time is as important as learning about your gear.
I’m a 2 channel man. A minimalist and a purest. My 2 subs are placed on the inside edge of my 2 floor standers. I appreciate that corner placement is ideal, but that is not an option for me. I purchased my subs at the sane time as my substantial floor standers, but they were delivered 8 weeks later. That afforded me the opportunity to get my floorstanders dialled in and allowed me to become familiar with their sonic signature an how they interacted with the room. My room is 21 feet long, 19 feet wide and 7.5 feet high with a 12 feet by 6 feet open plan kitchen making the room L-shaped. The floor is solid concrete topped with hard wood. The ceiling, which separates my ground floor apartment from the apartment above is solid concrete. My walls are plasterboard with one long wall being all window from 3 feet up. As you can doubtless gather, far from ideal. I have no room treatment other than a large plush rug, placed in front of and between my floorstanders. I don’t employ DSP or any other form of electronic or digital correction. I believe that room treatment can and will alter your room acoustics. Whether you prefer those alterations is a matter of personal preference and taste! Anyways, when my subs arrived it took a couple of months of trial and error and experimentation to get them dialled in to my liking. Their placement was non negotiable! However I did manage to achieve a full range, well balanced and pleasing musical reproduction. I don’t have the luxury of a separate listening room. My hifi has to fight for it’s right to be in our family lounge. A couple of months ago, I updated our 2 and 3 seater leather recliner sofas for smaller and lighter, 2 and 3 seater static fabric sofas. They killed the rooms ambiance. Made the listening experience, well, more intimate. It didn’t bode well with me, but I knew I’d have to learn to like this new intimate musical reproduction as the sofas were here for the foreseeable future. I then purchased a 3rd sub, a downfiring sub, which I placed centrally along the rear wall, behind my listening position and opposite my stereo subs. It did take some dialling in. This included readjusting my original subs, but the combination works. Do I have even bass distribution throughout my room? Well, the only measuring equipment I use is my ears, but the answer is no. However, at my listening position, where I do 99% of my attentive listening, the musical reproduction is superb, or should I say, suits my listening preference. I’m guessing that many of your subscribers are in a situation not unlike my own, far from ideal when it comes to placement of subs and lack of room correction. Be assured that with the right components and a little time, effort, trial and error and experimentation, it is perfectly feasible to achieve pleasing results. Enjoy the music.s
Sounds like you have a nice setup. I'm a 2 Chanel guy too 99%music That 3rd sub behind you definitely going to help spread the pressure out Throughout the room. Have you tried raising your front subs up off the floor? If possible assuming they are not down firing, it will improve SQ. Did for my set up. I would think with concrete above and below it would conciderably be even better for you. Subs are pressurizing devices and having them coupled to the floor kinda waste some of that energy.
That is what I did with my SB3000's, a pair. It really settled them in. I have the KLH Model 5's with a complete Denafrips system, and quite honestly, I could probably lose the subs and only I would know.
@@johndaddabbo9383 i assume 99% of AVRs have settings for delay, xover, levels. the continuous-phase dial allows you to achieve the same effect as an independent sub delay, on a budget.
Is it true that placing speakers near room boundaries - and especially in corners - excites (more) room modes, which exacerbates the peaks and nulls, resulting in less even bass? And therefore avoiding boundaries and corners is more likely to result in a more even sound?
I found in my space 4 subs yielded worse results than two. It was louder and shook more outside the room but in the room it seemed like they were canceling each other.
Hey, Theo. I've downloaded the pink noise files. Which file do I play to level my speakers after running Audessey, and how do I play it in each of the 7.1 channels? Also, have you come across the timing issue that, some say, exists in Denon/Marantz receivers? The argument is that they used an incorrect speed of sound, and the distance measurement should be multiplied by .875 to adjust the timing. I'm not sure why that would change anything other than the overall delay, but I'm no expert. Any guidance? 🙏
I have discussed this issue with folks and hope to address it with a forthcoming Audyssey video. The info I’ve received is SET YOUR AVR TO METERS NOT FEET so that there is no conversion.
I recently setup Mini DSP on my Dual SB3000 subs. I have of sub at the front near my left channel and one sub at the rear of the room at the opposite corner. The bass is so tight and clean compared to when I just had the subs on my avr. I highly recommend the minidsp. It was probably one the best bang (no pun intended) for my buck home theater investments.
“aesthetics” and “wife acceptance factor” have little to do with “good sound”. There is no basis for connecting them, re subwoofer performance. FWIW, a subwoofer that goes out to 400Hz is not really a subwoofer, that’s midbass enhancement. Not the same. Ugh. A true subwoofer will focus on the 20-40Hz region, maybe up to 60Hz.
My first audiohokicd RU-vid video watched, and it was great! I’ve been on the forum for years, and finally just getting a formal Home theater room set up after decades of having living room set ups. I have one massive subwoofer corner, loaded in the back right corner of the room, but it’s too localized and doesn’t seem even. I have a lesser ported sub that I can throw into the room, perhaps in the front 1/3 corner, on the inside of the right main tower. Thoughts?
I have a very mixed use setup, 2.1 at the moment and looking for a sub upgrade. We do a lot of listening very off AXIS in the kitchen, I'm leaning towards a 2.2 setup in hopes that the sound will be much more even way off axis but I'm not sure if that's true to that extent.
Is it okay to mix subwoofer models in a dual subwoofer setup? (Currently using one Klipsch R-120SW 12" and thinking of either getting the same model or the R112SW) Also my goal is to achieve more of a rumbling feel when i'm sitting on my furniture, will adding a second sub actually help with this?
In the video you mention that subs flanking the center can sometimes satisfy the 1/4 3/4 "rule" curious what is considered "narrow"?. My room is 18x12 and have pair of HSU 15in at the 1/4 and 3/4 spots along the front 12ft wall. LCR are identical PSA MT110s
I thought it was straight forward to implement stereo bass with two subwoofers and two sub out on AV receiver. I was so wrong. I bought the second sub and just realise my AV receiver have two sub out with one independent :(.
My Subs are placed outside my right and left main speakers about 12 ft apart I'm wondering if that's better than having them next to the center Channel
Dampen any metal on metal contact that you can. You'll be surprised how much quieter racking the bar is on presses, squats, and deadlifts when the contact points are muted.
I have an open living room, behind my is the front door to the house and a hallway that leads into the kitchen, other living room, and main area. In front of me to the left is a giant opening for the dining area and patio , any ideas how I could find the best method
@@djparra41 I am not talking about peaks and dips. I am talking about imaging which is what was claimed in the video and was even one of the bullet points. If you don't know what imaging is, please Google it.
@@kittydukakis fellow Greek? Watch the video Gene linked featuring Matt Poes. Matt as usual does a great job expanding the topic. Stereo bass more properly defined is the sense of spaciousness and envelopment you get.
Made this same mistake. Put subs where they looked best but it wasn't until I got a UMIK-1 that I realized how useless having two was with them there. Moved to opposing corners and it was like I got new subs then adding the miniDSP was the final touch.
I do like the video. However, while amazing, the SVS subs do not represent what many can afford especially in a double configuration. Two of these come in at a heft $5000 in additional to the $5000 for Denon receiver you use in your test. These do not accurately represent what most of us have available to work with. I would like to have seen you test some budget friendly subs/receivers, some mid range and high end.
Hi, thanks for the informative video. What about dual subs like the Kef KC62 which fire in two directions - presumably the corners are less than ideal? What it be the 1/4 and 3/4 then?
I have a question regarding the ideal placement guidelines. It says corners or midpoint or 1/4 or 3/4 points. Forgive me if I’m missing something here but isn’t that then 1/4 (left corner) 2/4 (midpoint) 3/4 then 4/4 (right corner) so basically all points along the wall? Please enlighten me as to what I’m missing here. Love this channel and all your work 💪💪
Corner = Corner. 1/4 means measuring the wall-let's say it's 10-feet-and then you put the subs at 2.5 foot and 7.5 foot points along the wall. Midpoint would be 5-foot mark.
I realize that 2 is better than one. And it's obvious that 3 is better, and 4 is even better. So that wasn't necessary to say. Using that argument, I could say 8 subs is what you need. In reality, most people don't have a budget even for 2 decent subs. In fact, 1 sub, if high-quality and high powered, is plenty, especially when paired with a nice set of tower speakers.
Actually 2 subs are ALWAYS better than 1 IF you care about getting good bass for more than 1 or 2 seats. Anything > 4 subs is usually a waste unless you need more output.
Hey guys, I know you covered us in other videos but, this adussey room correction is really screwing up my sound. Is there anyway I can just reset and just do this manually.? I have prime center and satellite with a SB 1000. Your help would be greatly appreciated.
You can reset your receiver, not run Audessey when prompted, and enter manual set up. You should measure your distances and compare them to the Audessey measurements. Remember, that it's actually a timing thing, so they may differ a little. You can also just turn Audessey off, under the Audio menu.
I've never cared about home theater and probably never really will. But 2 channel music is very important to me. What I've noticed is that each of the 2 subs really needs to be balance with the its nearest speaker. Each sid of the roob has different loading and room effect characteristics. Once this is done with both phase and levels, it's magical. Single subwoofer setups actually degrade what's potential. If your main speakers are crossed in at, say, 50Hz and you have a sub on one side of the room, well the speaker on the other side will never be in phase as well as the one closest to the sub. So many systems treat bass as a monaural source. But it just plain isn't. Simple soundstage arranges such as a bass player on the left, drummer on the right... etc, will all have audible and spacial cues that are much more realistic and impactful. It will seem like your room got wider and deeper.
I agree 2 subs is always better than 1 for critical 2CH listening. It makes it so you can't kicakize the bass coming from one location and also smooths the response across more seats.
Your chart says "denon pure direct", which turns bass management off, and likely your sub-woofers not even getting any signals. Unless you use "lfe+main" mode, which is very tricky to get right, since bass goes to both mains and subs - so I think nulls you were getting could be due to your fancy receiver setup, not even related to subs placement.
