Dr Bart Ehrman and Dr Laurence Brown discuss God, Suffering, and the Purpose of Life 

*Timestamps:* 0:00 - Introduction 0:08 - Topics of discussion 0:25 - Background of Dr. Lawrence Brown 1:10 - Background of Dr. Bart Ehrman 2:02 - Excerpt from the introduction of Dr. Brown's book 3:10 - Dr. Brown explains the introduction to his book 4:40 - Beliefs of Dr. Ehrman 6:22 - Dr. Brown explains Agnostic Believers 7:57 - Different Journeys of Dr. Brown and Dr. Ehrman 8:46 - How Dr. Brown came to Islam 10:50 - Dr. Ehrman gives his opinions on Dr. Brown's conversion story 11:38 - How Dr. Ehrman became an Agnostic 14:21 - Dr. Brown's views on Atheism & near death experiences 20:43 - Dr. Ehrman on explanation of near death experiences 24:34 - Dr. Brown's rebuttal to Dr. Ehrman's explanation and continued discussion on near death experiences 29:04 - Supernatural explanations of events & existence 31:32 - What caused the Big Bang ? 33:09 - Origin of life 36:06 - Fundamenal questions that aren't answered by Atheists 36:43 - Faith in Science vs Faith in God 42:08 - The Problem of Evil/Suffering (Dr. Brown's arguments) 46:23 - Dr. Ehrman's contention to Dr. Brown's arguments 49:19 - Dr. Brown's counter argument 51:59 - Dr. Ehrman's counter argument 52:41 - Discussion on People dying young 55:20 - Sufferings of people 56:43 - Reasons for suffering 58:37 - Accountability of children vs adults 59:43 - Deaths in natural disasters & suffering being an evidence of God 1:02:45 - God creating suffering 1:05:31 - Hardships making people Grateful 1:07:18 - Day of Judgement, Good Afterlife for Non-Muslims & Criteria for Judgement 1:10:57 - Fate of People who reject Prophet Muhammad ﷺ 1:12:51 - What does it mean to be a Muslim ? 1:15:23 - Islamic view of Purpose of Suffering 1:18:13 - Science vs Religion 1:19:59 - Explanation of the universe by Theists and Atheists 1:22:13 - God vs Science of Gaps 1:24:13 - Dr. Ehrman's Closing Statements 1:26:25 - Dr. Brown's Closing Statements 1:28:35 - Wrapping Up SUBHANALLAH ❤️🤍❤️ Very Interesting Discussion

Assalam alaikum to my brothers and sisters in faith. I would like to thank everybody for their comments. It is true I am not a debater, but then again this was not supposed to be a debate but a dialogue. But it turned out to be what it is. I think all of us tend to look back after an exchange like this and regret some things we said, wish we had said other things, and kick ourselves for the missed opportunities that passed us by in the heat of the moment. As for myself, I realize I could have risen more to the moment, but it is just not my nature to argue at that level. But maybe that will change with more experience :-). Please continue to support Paul for all of the fine work he is doing in this regard.

Can we Muslims and non-Muslims at least admit that Br. Paul is killing it with 1st class, world renowned guests?!

The difference between humbled wisdom and arrogant ignorance is clearly evident in the session from the scratch till the end. May ALLAH reward you big brother Paul for being the constant seeker and helping hundreds along the way. love from Bangladesh.

Dr Laurence Brown conducted himself beautifully and in a most respected manner, throughout the whole stream MashaAllah. Thoroughly enjoyed watching this. Jzk, brother Paul for the entertaining stream ☺️

The biggest injustice of the man is when he transfers his own responsibility to God and blames God for it (instead of blaming himself). The starvation in this world is an issue that man should own. God has given enough resources at human's disposal to feed everyone. It is the man who hoards, steals, and does not share with others and then he blames God for their suffering.

Have never seen Bart Ehrman so emotional. This journey is going to get interesting.

I know this Doctor, he actually works in Madina, Saudi Arabia as an Eye Opthamologist (eye doctor). I've went to him many times for my eye check up. The Hospital he works in is called Magrabi

One day Mr.Bart Ehrman will see the light inshallah

Dr Laurence Brown carried him self with dignity, his face is glowing with light. Amazing human being, may Allah accept your effort

Despite the fact that Dr. Bart Herman has so much knowledge in NT textual criticism, I found him to be an extremely superficial person. Dr. Brown, I applaud you for your patience, wisdom and well representation. May Allah forgive your sins and guide Dr. Herman before its too late. Special thanks to Paul Williams for bringing us those historic discussions.

The contentions Dr. Ehrman raised about the problem of suffering are tough to answer. I have struggled with the issue of suffering at some point. The best answers that i could think of are: 👇🏼👇🏼👇🏼 1- Imagine someone having a nightmare. In the nightmare the person could be seeing all horrible things and feeling the worst type of pain. However, once that individual is awake, that pain he felt in the nightmare will be insignificant and he will continue his life as if he never had that nightmare. That's how I see the after life, a long eternal one that make all the previous pain endured in the normal life insignificant. As a matter of fact, there's a Hadith which goes with this reasoning. Anas ibn Malik reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “The most privileged people in the world among the people of Hellfire will come on the Day of Resurrection to be dipped in Hellfire, then it will be said: O son of Adam, did you see any good? Did you get any blessing? He will say: No, by Allah, my Lord! Then, the most miserable people in the world among the people of Paradise will come on the Day of Resurrection to be dipped in Paradise, then it will be said: O son of Adam, did you see any hardship? Did you have any distress? He will say: No, by Allah, my Lord! I did not once see hardship or distress.” Muslim 2807 2- The second reasoning I have used to explain the issue of pain is to imagine a 1 year baby taken by his mother to a doctor office to get a needle shot for a treatment. The baby might suffer a lot of emotional and physical pain while he's getting the jab. He might start crying and look in agony and pain at his mother. He might feel betrayed by his mother, and might not make sense of the pain his mother had put on him. However, only when the baby grows up, his knowledge will comprehend the good in the treatment he received as baby. Only then he will realize the love his mother had for him and why she made him endure that pain. That's how I think about our intellect as humans. We fall short of grasping the full picture because we can only see a pixel, whereas only God has the full picture.

Just watching the interaction between these two demonstrates the difference between a person who is connected with God, and a person who isn't. Dr. Brown is a class act and exudes light. May God bless him and guide those who have yet to find the truth.

When it comes to Dr. Brown, I love it how he remains cool as a cucumber throughout the conversation. It was great. Thanks a lot Mr. Williams

I’m Muslim because after thoroughly studying Islam and religion I’ve concluded that every claim allegedly by our Creator is the most believable thing to go on! 🤷🏻✌️☝️

I appreciate hearing Dr Brown after a long time. I first came across his story 5 or so years ago on a very old computer with an appalingly slow connection. i was amazed at his level of imaan and the the test he faced after reversion. A very short while later as my world went topsy turvy later i took comfort in his story.it was like Allah was showing me something alhumdulillah

I really like how Mr Paul is well versed in his guests' writings and mastered the technique of moderating debates/discussions.

As a Maths student I find the response "There's no scientific evidence for God" no more ridiculous than saying "There's no scientific evidence for numbers", the paradigm these atheists come from is deeply flawed.

Dr Lawrence Brown has very nice insight. He realizes the importance of science in Islam, and his discussions reflect this with enlightenment.

Dr. Ehrman is such an intelligent man.

br. Paul has been doing wonderful works, unprecedented !ALLAH bless you and your family

I love that Bart Ehrman has recently been interacting with Muslims. May Allah guide him

As a muslim i didn’t think Dr. Brown gave satisfactory answers. I’ve heard better arguments and answers regarding suffering and heaven and hell. But respect to Dr. Brown for doing his best.

At times this discussion was somewhat awkward, but I loved how almost everyone kept their composer and professionalism despite the disagreements. On the subject of suffering, I have had several students argue about the existence of a merciful God who allows suffering to happen. Reward and accountability is what I always tell them. For someone who is handicapped, disfigured, starving, poor, cold, suffering...etc, it is their burden to be patient, but it is also a greater responsibility on us as humans, governments, and communities to alleviate and protect them. The burden not only falls on those suffering, but on those who are witness.

Masha Allah brother Paul. Thanks for arranging this discussion/ debate.

Bart Erhman has been on Islamic channels recently and discussing Islam even though his expertise is Christianity - this proves that Islam is way more interesting phenomena. Even Jordan Peterson had discussion with Mohammed Hijab - all these intellectuals are talking about Islam. Major thanks to Paul Williams and other Dawah people for their hard-work. 😍😍🥰

I understand Bart's point of view and we should recognize his deep empathy for human beings and their sufferings. The issue is that most of these sufferings are caused by other human beings who, for their own lust for power and greed, loot, plunder, murder, and rape, and that's where we are tested on how we stop those aggressors from causing those sufferings upon humans and other fellow creatures.

Thanks Mr. Paul Williams for arranging such an amazing dialogue between them!! Respect both guest I'm a fan of Dr. Lawrence Brown ✨

It's great to see both Dr. Erhman and Dr. Brown into one platform. I love them both!

For someone who say religious people are emotional, dr erhman seems more emotional here. Jazakallah for this brother paul

I personally felt Dr Laurence could not properly argue against Dr Bart’s points . But his closing statement summed up his argument very successfully.

Lots of love to dr laurence brown, He gave all answers smartly and nicely and made discussion awesome and inspiring..

God bless you brother Laurence and make this straight path easy for you amen thank you so much .plz do more of these. Very inspiring and useful info.

Quite shocking to know that Erhman would've still stayed a Christian even though he knew that the Bible contained contradictions and mistakes. And also he only started being an Atheist due to the problem of evil and suffering is even more mind boggling and makes me think that he's more of an emotional person than a logical and rational one.

Even Angels Ask Why by Jeffrey Lang (along with his lectures) is one of the best studies on the topic of why God allows suffering.

God guides whom he will to the right path . . . Wonderful to hear the three of you and your ideas

Paul, how much i love your videos, infinity! Thank you so much for all the hard work you put in to make this all happen.

Dr Bart Ehrman sounds like he's hurting inside to me. We can only pray for God to guide him. The fact that he's willing to participate in discussions like these is enough proof for me that he's trying and God's guiding him.

Listening to an atheist arguments is such a humbling experience...you just want to pray all the time thanking God for not being one of them, asking Him to never let you go astray.

Pray for Dr Ehrman for the guidance. May Allah reward Dr Brown & Mr Williams for steadfastness in Deen.

My level of faith is getting higher after watching your videos. Thank you for arranging all of this.

B. Ehrman reacts quite emotionally for someone who does not believe in hell. Mankind should be blamed for suffering and hunger. How blind can one be not to realize that.

Jazak Allah Khayran Brother Paul for this great Show . Divine decree is a major belief in Islam & Although the suffering of people is hard for us humans to explain as we are limited in knowledge , We have to accept it , show patience & have complete faith in Allah SWT plan. Jazak Allah khayran Dr Brown as well for your patience & humility ...."Who, when disaster strikes them , say :Indeed we belong to Allah, and indeed to him we will return .Those are the ones upon whom are blessings from their Lord and mercy.And it is those who are rightly guided " Holy Quran (2 :156-157)

Dr Brown is so calm , humble . He has a very soothing personality! May God bless him .

Dr Bart is very emotional. Dr Lawrence is very calm .

Nice discussion. Regarding tsunami that mentioned many times by Dr Ehrmann. Many muslims could be died as shahid/syuhada. I am Indonesian and according to some ustadz/ islamic scholars in indonesia, many died during sujud, as it seems when the tsunami happened, they were doing dhuha prayer (tsunami happened in the morning time). There are always many hikmah behind everything, human mind cannot reach it. After listening and watching many discussions like this...it seems the patience to listen is one of the most needed. And many arrogant people have lack of patient to listen. I hope we will still be guided in the way of Allah/istiqomah till soul separate from our bodies. Thank you bro Paul👍🙏😊

Jazakallah Bro Paul, had invited both of them in your Blogs, respect for both of them...especially Dr Brown, being watch many of his early video his journey to Islam.

Such a wonderful , intellectual discussion ! Mervelous work Dr Paul ☺️

I'm searching for Dr Lawrence Brown in RU-vid now. Masha Allah

The more I listen to Bart, I realise that this man is very far from God. He thinks he knows everything.

GREAT JOB DR. EHRMAN!

This is such an important conversation to have... Covering all the most important questions.

Dr Laurence Brown has (Masha’Allah) done a lot of great work. I have benefited from both his books and talks. In my honest and personal opinion, Paul should have brought in Hamza Tzortis for this one. This was a philosophical debate, in which you need a philosopher of religion like Hamza. Dr Brown is a doctor and has a background in comparative religion. As a muslim I don’t think that many of his answers were convincing (not just for Dr. Ehrman, but I would suspect for a lot of other atheists, agnostics and others) If the theme of the talk was about the Bible and how the Bible can lead to the Quran (or something like that) Dr. Brown would have been great. But philosophical debates is somewhat outside of his field. For example he should have mention the fitrah as ‘a proof’ we as Muslims believe in. We have to remember, there are a lot of people watching these videos and we must bring people who can properly representation the Islamic position, lest we make our view look weak. All in all he did a decent job and may Allah reward him immensely. As I mentioned, he has done a lot of great work.

Salaam alaikum brother Paul, Masha-Allah what an interview this is and what a surprise!! We've been waiting for Dr Bart Erhman for a long time, as for Dr Lawrence brown has been in your podcast before and is always welcome. May Allah preserve Dr Lawrence brown and brother Paul and guide Dr Erhman to the truth of Islam, Allahumma Ameen. Subhaana-Allah I'm so amazed at the collective patience Dr Brown showed as I'm watching the talk, it's amazing he didn't lose his cool. I'm completely taken by surprise as to why Dr Bart Erhman couldn't hold his cool at all. Dr Bart Erhman wanted to drag brother Paul with him, I'm sure brother Paul didn't want nothing to do with that. I'm sure brother Paul will disagree with much of what Dr Bart Erhman said and I'm sure he will agree with everything Dr Brown said. I believe the verses of the Qur'an Dr Brown read sums everything else!!

Much respect to your guests, Dr Brown and Dr Ehrman both enjoy my respect and Mr Williams more so for bringing us these awesome debates. May Allah continue to grant you barakah, ghair and aafiyah. Ameen.

Both won their own arguments! Great discussion/Wonderful presentation.

Asa Dr Brown was not expecting a debate, but a dialogue , Dr Bart came up with emotional debating tactics, Dr Brown respectfully tried to explain we don’t have an answer for everything which Dr Bart agreed with when it suited him, but not on human suffering . It is a matter of faith , but it shows at the end the man with faith is not as agitated as the man without.

I don't mean to offend bart but I find it somewhat amusing that the thing that got him to leave Christianity were not the rational excuses such as the blatant contradictions, historic & scientific mistakes but rather it was an irrational and emotional one, the *"Problem of evil"* .

Wow Paul, I cannot believe the quality of your guest. Great job and eagerly await for more. Wishing you a fantastic new year. Light , love and blessings.🇬🇧🇲🇺💐

Thanks for uploading an excellent discussion.

Paul please moderate debates in future. Give them a stop clock for time to respond WITHOUT interruptions. Rule has to be NO INTERRUPTIONS. Under the circumstances Dr Brown dealt with this very well.

I love how for Dr. Ehrman it's OK not to have the answers to the three most important questions of all time because well... science will figure it out in the long run (which is pure blind fate and science of the gaps) but the theist must have an answer for why there is suffering (which is a secondary issue might I add) in order for their claim to be true

dr brown is immaculate in his repose and it was a pleasure to hear his discourse on the subject and he is right suffering brings us closer to him who creates and separates the chaff from the grain to see who is grateful despite the hardships that come our way and it is true we will be recompensed in the hereafter if we are grateful here and it is temporary our hardship here and it will be there we will be compensated if we are innocent in things here omar

Thanks brother William for making this dialogue possible

Dr. Brown is an epitome of wisdom, sobriety, reasoning, and giving examples to make things very illuminating - May Allah SWT rewards him for representing Islamic position in a profound manner. Even Dr. Bart claimed his agnostic view it seems he is more on the atheistic camp, arguing without any real reasoning that can make his case and stubbornly repeating without even respecting Dr. Brown’s explanation - his preconceived knowledge on Christianity failed him to fathom the concept of sufferings! Thanks, Pual for hosting this discussion. I regularly follow your channel and try to learn from the knowledge you share

Love and respect both scholars - doctors in their own fields. Dear Paul, one simple message for Dr Ehrman if you can get it to him from a layman: the problem of evil teaches us a few things: 1. Do we recognise and feel the pain and suffering of another human or animal so it hurts us (as it clearly does hurt Dr Erhman)? Teaches us Empathy and tests our capacity for feeling for others 2. Are you then thankful for what you and your dear loved ones have for you are not yourselves in that state? Gratitude. 3. What do you do about this suffering? How do you react? Get angry or get helpful? Charity and endeavour. Ultimately, the simple thing that this life is temporary - do you not realise that the suffering of others temporarily could easily be flipped into everlasting (eternal) joy and bliss by a merciful God? This world is temporary - a fact observable as people like our ancestors are all dead. Their misery and their bliss ended. So problem of evil - only a drop in the ocean and test for all. Fail it or pass it - choice is ours.

Dr Brown is amazing, thru him i learn more about Islam. thank you brother

Dr.Brown best, calm , and respectful,listening,truthful.sister watching from Canada.

Thank you so much Sir for organizing such high end professional to discus such important topic.

Bart seems more angry than reasonable. He has mentioned starving children multiple times but hasn't been able to wonder why matter in motion cares about about other matter in motion. Its an absurd concept.

Paul certainly is doing great work MashaAllah a great service to humanity. May Allah ( swt) give him exponential reward.

Brilliant discussion 👏 Awesome job organizing this paul 👍

Amazing scholars discussing amazing topic. Tq Paul for making this happens on your blog. Good to see Bart finally being here also.

On the topic of suffering, I've never actually heard anyone use the following counter-argument, even though to me it appears as extremely logical and impossible to deny. So let's take a hypothetical argument between two people. Person 1: How can God be All-Good is there is so and so in the world? Person 2: So you expect perfect equity in this life? Person 1: Not perfect equity, but the easing of sufferings, no senseless deaths, no wars, no famine, no plagues, etc. Person 2: Even if all that were to be satisfied, the person acclimated to that hypothetical society would find injustice in smaller things, such as differences in height, differences in ability (intellectual/physical), differences in how much a person earns, differences in the places in which people are born and how those peoples differ in terms of development, and so on. Person 1: But at least there would be no suffering. Person 2: For a human it would be good enough, but God is Perfect, and imperfection cannot be in His creation. A life where there is no post-judgement must be a perfectly equitable life, as otherwise why would an All-Good, All-Perfect God create people who lives would be, even in the most minute way, inequitable. Indeed the only solution for a perfect being to create true equity in this life is to remove free-will, and create us as perfect equals, like blades of grass. Person 1: But that's clearly not how the world is now, humans are different, we aren't the same, the world is fundamentally unequitable. So how can God be All-Good. Person 2: I gave the prior argument as a preface to this one. The All-Good nature of God can be understood more easily through his attribute of being the Most-Just. God is Perfectly Omniscient, you can view this Omniscience as the following: God sees every quark or lesser, in the Universe, at it's exact location, down to the Planck length, or lesser, at every Planck time, or lesser, for all time, throughout all time. He knows everything there is to know, and more. As such, he has absolute knowledge, and is the absolute reference for everything. This allows Him to deal Absolute Justice. God is All-Good because He will offset the inequity of this world perfectly in the world to come. His will not deliver injustice to a person lesser than the weight of an atom. He knows everything, and can quantify everything. Any injustice you suffered here will be accounted for by Him. If you were born poor, born disabled, born only to be killed in war, famine, disease, cancer, murder, He will account for that, and deal with you with Perfect Justice. It is the only way to achieve true equity. What God gives to you is better than what you ask for, you ask for a lack of suffering in this world, but that cannot be possible while free-will exists. God gives you both free-will and perfect equity, there is no injustice, and God remains All-Good. And that is why amongst the 6 major beliefs of a Muslim, one of them is the Belief in the Day of Judgement.

I missed this..HOW..HOW..??😭😭😭 THANK YOU BRO PAUL and DR.BROWN You did a very good Job .❤ May Allah SWT blessed you both on your good works .Ameen🤲

JazakAllahu Khair wa BaarakAllahu Feek Dr. Brown. You did a superb job and I hope you keep going (you will only get better and better - Malcolm Gladwell's theory)

Theres a video on youtube by Yasir Qadhi on the problem of evil and suffering, its probably the BEST answer regarding this issue. He explains it beautifully. I HIGHLY encourage every muslim and non-muslim to watch it.

Dr Bart is quite unique, whether he believes in God or not, the suffering is still happening and will always be. The fact that he still choose not to believe in God is amazing. Thinking that in the thinking of not believing in God will solve suffering issues is interesting

I liked Dr. Jeffrey Lang's take on the suffering issue. He delivered two lectures on two consecutive evenings I guess at a certain university whose name eludes my mind at the moment, it was quiet helpful. you can find it here on youtube with a single search.

Dr brown , u have the calmness of a knowing person Calmness & silence after caught truth Happy for u , God bless ur days amen 🤲🏻🌺🌺 Thnx Paul , God bless ur days too 🤲🏻🌺🌺

Bart ehrman is an emotional wreck. I didn't expect him to be so sensitive

Thank you Mr. Paul. You continue to impress us. I could have never imagined these two having a dialogue. I’m still kind of grasping this. Thank you!!!

Bart is an impatient dude Dr Laurence you are inspirational with your immense patience.

Knowledge is of the world but understanding comes from our Father in heaven.

May Allah bless Dr Brown and brother Paul. Ameen.

Many thanks Mr. Paul for a huge effort for bringing such discussion to your platform. Am sure, many brothers from known online streams may be so ready to comment or have their view shared about it. Once again, Blogging Theology has done great service for knowledge seekers.

Thanks Paul for hosting such prestigious guests, Much love to Dr. Laurence and Dr. Ehrman. The latter was interrupting Dr. Laurence quite often in this debate which is oddly not his habit in previous debates that i saw of him. Bless you all anyway

What a delightful conversation. Dr. Brown, Dr. Ehrman, many thanks for sharing your views plainly for us to enjoy and grow. Dr. Ehrman's position is well known and his personal approach to the topics discussed was honest and respectful. His way of conveying his views is part of his personality. In all honesty his points are valid and, from where I stand, can only be overcome through Faith. This grace is not bestowed upon everyone. Some weeks ago it was discussed by (I'm so sorry not to remember his name right now) wether Ghandi would go to hell and our speaker, very honestly and humbly, replied that we really do not know God's desires. is there really only one path to Heaven? Well, Dr. Brown, it was a joy listening to you discussing Faith with a well prepared atheist. You were respectful and composed throughout. Many thanks to both of you. In a manner of speaking it was epic (really I mean unforgettable). 👍🏽😘

Thank you so much Paul for having Dr Brown and prof: Ehrman

Thank you Brother Paul for hosting this dialogue, though it turned into a debate - we still learned a lot. Thank you to both your speakers for sharing their perspectives and knowledge.

One point that was missed and could have helped is that the pain and suffering is happening from our own greed. We are causing this and we are witnesses of this as a test of how to fix this. This is a blessing in disguise, this is an opportunity for us to show compassion and do the work to feed them. This is the test for the fortunate that can feed themselves. Every test for mankind is laid out in front of us. Sometimes we find cures when we have diseases. A prosthetic leg is only created when one has to lose it. Allah disguises the blessing in the tragedy. I wish Dr. Brown approached it in this manner.

Jajakallah khair brothers dr. Brown & dr pol. Dear dr. Brown you tried your best. May Allah deward you.

Dr Brown looks like not on same frequency with Dr Ehrman when discussing about suffering. I think best person to me when discussing suffering is Sheikh Hamza Yusuf. I watch a video of him explaining suffering in a short, logical and beautiful way. He can talk about Islam just by using logic. Hope it happens!

Wow that s going to be great insha Allah, didn t even know that was happening, thank you brother Paul!

Watching loud and clear from Singapore !

so happy to see dr brown and Paul

I had the opportunity to meet Dr. Laurence more than 20 years ago in Medinah.

Dr Ehrman is using an emotional argument, not a rational one. What he should do is rationalize first if there is a God, only then after that should he seek the reason for why there are sufferings. On starvation, Dr Ehrman is emotionally excusing himself and other humans by blaming God. God has provided enough, but human greed has prevented just, fair and charitable distribution of food and water for all.

our creator granted us intellect to read his divine words , which ordered all humanity towards charities. if every person does its duty by contributing , then there won't be any starvation at all.

Interesting program. Huge difference in views about life and reality.