Fun fact the "other police officer" who he said he can't remember his names Arthur Leigh Allen refers to to in this scene was actually called John Lynch.
What I love about this movie is that it constantly alludes the the lack of cohesion and teamwork between the different police departments involved, which was a big reason they could never catch the zodiac.
I've noticed that, as Arthur speaks, each detective realizes that he is somehow involved in the case at different points during the interview, and they express it in quite different ways too... (Toschi at 2:10; Armstrong at 2:34; Mulanax at 2:50)
I'm pretty sure with their respective experience they probably would have been on the same page the whole time. The movie let *us* know they knew at those moments, but I'd wager that they all started getting the vibe at virtually the same time. Mulanax was the first one to be given the boot match, so he conceivably could have been the first one to get real alarm bells though.
@@stopthephilosophicalzombie9017 Now that you mention that, I guess that the director chose, ironically, to give each character their own separate screen-time to let us know they were all on the same page.
@@luchiz1426 That's my impression at least. What I think is so brilliant about this scene is the way it shows the competence of the detectives without beating you over the head with it. One of the deeper themes of the movie is the difference between *knowing* someone is guilty and *proving* it, and the toll that takes on cops because so many actual killers and criminals simply walk away because the investigators can't assemble enough concrete evidence. The fact of the matter is that the smartest criminals probably remain free to walk among us, and that knowledge makes a lot of cops go insane or causes burnout or illegal activity of their own in the form of vigilante justice. Another movie that touches on this idea is No Country for Old Men. If you want to read a really terrifying story about the effects on cops this job can have, read about the Toolbox Killers. The lead investigator of that case literally took his own life on the mere *possibility* that those guys ever getting out of jail. I warn you though, the details of what the killers did to the girls they targeted is beyond disturbing and horrifying. If you are very sensitive I'd encourage you to skip that case. It's beyond haunting.
3:32 The background noise here is so chilling as soon as he says he's not the Zodiac. I can't make out what it is. I can't tell if it's soundtrack or soundscape.
You can tell when he crosses his legs how comfortable he is. So when he’s telling his alibi he’s so comfortable in it because it’s been well thought out as he knows he may be questioned
Never thought of that. I mean this is dramatised ofc, but it’s pretty adamant the writer/director thinks it was Arthur who was the Zodiac. In reality the Zodiac could’ve been anyone, but the fact he admitted he met ‘a couple’ and he had ‘bloody knives’ was so bizarre. At least in this scene, it’s made out like he’s rehearsed this alibi in his head over and over to the point he actually sounded more incriminating then he thinks he did
I've always been intrigued by this scene. So there are some possibilities here: Either ALA "Lee" is the killer and he is stupidly giving the police too much information, or he knows who the killer(s) are, or has been following the stories on the news. But some of his answers are dead giveaways that he was involved. He was in the areas involved esp. Riverside. He had bloody knives in his car the same day the couple was attacked at Lake Berryessa. He knew that Z referred to officers as "pigs", and he quoted that in his letters. Lee WAS ambidextrous, but was also a heavy drinker. And he had a basement in his parents house in Vallejo. If he was drunk when writing the letters, that explains the sloppiness. Also, a female witness who knew him, Ferrin's sister, said he called himself "Lee" and he would bring her gifts from Tijuana. His b-day was the same day as the first killings, 12-20-1968. I mean so many circumstantial evidence here. But...the killer in SF was smaller in stature and had a crew cut and glasses. Lee was 6'0" and bald. The Zodiac preyed on couples, and if this is correct that he was a paedo, he clearly liked having sex with kids. But he was nonetheless a strong suspect in this case, and Toschi always thought so. No one came closer to being zodiac than ALA. I might add this: Lee (ALA) moved to Santa Rosa (my hometown) in the early 70s. About that time, several young hitchhikers (girls) were kidnapped and murdered in this area. We called it the "Santa Rosa Hitchhiker Murders". Lee lived in a trailer park in SW SR at that time, and knew the area as well as backroads. In later taunting letters, his body count grew to 13 during this time. Z was originally linked to 5. You do the math. That means some of his victims could have been the SR girls abducted.
It is very likely that ALA didn't do ALL of the murders attributed to Zodiac, but he in my opinion, and with all the evidence WAS the Zodiac killer. Z also threw off the investigation by claiming several murders after the fact that he did not actually commit.
A lot of those so-called facts have been disputed. And Darlene's sister has changed her story over the years so many times she isn't seen as reliable nowadays
@@excusemesir7824 that doesn't prove he isn't Z. It just proves the DNA didn't match on the letters. And that probably isn't totally reliable. If you let a little thing like that exonerate the number one suspect, no wonder this has never been definitively solved. Learn the difference between a small piece of evidence not fitting and exonerating evidence.
@@MK-qr8uwnah ferrins sister always said a creepy man named Lee was at the painting party. Its either Arthur or Richard Hoffman. They could be partners who did the killings. ALA and Richard Hoffman was the Zodiacs
So true , and also mindhunter. David fincher is a master when directing tabel conversations, i wonder if he was inspired by 12 angry man since it completely takes place in one room and have such brilliant and meaningful camera movements...
He was obviously the zodiac because his voice matches the guy in the murders and when he was in prison for 4 years the letters stopped being sent and when he got out the letters started being sent again
I don't know how many times I've watched this movie but this scene is arguably one of the best in the last 25 years. I keep noticing that Arthur - who claims to be left-handed - wears his watch on his left wrist which is generally where people who are right-handed would wear it.
Watch the body language and speech pattern: 1:19 a stutter is a sign of distress and lying, 1:38 crossing legs is also a sign of distress and lying also his holding his hand to cover for comfort, 1:41 no direct eye contact, another sign of lying. Could be that he's trying to remember details too, I know 2:15 sudden jump of though, the cops never said anything about the knives and I don't remember him living in rural area with chicken. If he wanted chicken could've just bought it from the store, 2:44 his hand is starting to "twitch" a sign of being nervous 3:12/3:15 his thoughts are starting to become incoherent but he used his dominant hand for statement. He was lying about his compassion for children 3:33 obvious sign of slipping, especially at the last statement "and if I was I certainly wouldn't tell you" only someone who's involved with something specific would say that. 4:31 they also never said anything about "The most dangerous game" and how did he know about it if it was written in Zodiac cipher? 5:25 again, how did he know about what was said in cipher? And the way he said it was with negative inclinations, not in a friendly manner of speaking
I keep coming back to this particular scene every now and then. I'm feeling tense like a taut bowstring for the entire conversation as if a bomb is about to go off.
It's either that or he knows they can't touch him and he's taunting them (as he did with the letters). I mean there's an orgy of crazy evidence here. The watch for crying out loud!
When the buzzer goes off at the end you can almost feel the detectives' stomachs collectively drop because they know they don't have enough to take him into custody.
There’s just so much subtle brilliance in this scene, but I particularly love the first shot of Arthur walking to the room which pans to his shoes (subtly giving us a hint at the importance they will play later in the scene) and the subtle sneer Arthur gives the cops at 1:50 and the really subtle look of shock the cop has at 4:10 when he looks at the watch.
Remember seeing this at the cinema, the way he comes lumbering along at the start really set the tone for the rest of the scene, I got excited before they even started talking! thats what you call great film making.
@1:35 I always used to think that the reason that Sergeant Mulanax was giving him that look was because he found the high pitched sigh and crossing of the feet strange. First thing that came to mind was Paul Avery calling him 'possibly a latent homosexual'. That could relate to Lee's recent allegations of child molestation and the fixation Zodiac had on children in some of the letters. Watching it again recently, I'm pretty sure he's just looking at the shoes which either are or resemble the wing walkers whose prints were found on the scene. I always liked the actor who played Arthur Lee Allen in this movie. He's really creepy with his deep voice, large stature and bald head. Gives off creepy janitor meets Jason vibes. I always thought he was 6'4 though... turns out John Caroll Lynch is only 6'3. The actual Zodiac is believed to be 'over 6 feet', though exact height is unknown of course. I found conflicting data on Arthur Lee Allens height ranging from 184 cm, which is about 6 feet and half an inch, and 6 foot 2 which is 188cm.
The guy in the white jacket wearing glasses, looks like an older version of that eventually surfaced photo of Darlene and some anonymous dude in a white shirt wearing eyeglasses.
I don't know why but Mulanax's "What?" when Allen mentions the knives makes me laugh Also I've seen this movie several times and only now noticed Allen trying to cover his watch when Toschi asks to see it 3:44
Idk if the scene 100% matches the real questioning but if it does, Allen lied about his curiosity on the whole Zodiac thing, he said: 1. That he never talked about the Zodiac to anyone - and yet he said he did it with Phil Tucker and Ted Kidder (and don't forget Donald Cheney); 2. That he has only read the early news about the Zodiac - but then he has shown he knew about the Riverside murder, which has been related to the Zodiac only much later on.
This scene reminds me this game L.A. Noire where you interrogate suspects, and if you caught them on something, whether they lie or try to divert, you need to call them out and say exactly what it is and counter any made up things. Otherwise they will just get away with it. I failed so many times with so many suspects, had to repeat the convo few times. It was hard for me, even when you had all the clues and testimonies showing their guilty. THEY ALWAYS MANAGE TO SNEAK AROUND. They do not confess. They never made things easy. If caught on something they will just made something up just to fool you again. This interrogation shows this clearly. He just fooled them, dodged, feeding them with false alibi from a guy that died on heart attack? Lol. They did not pressed him hard enough which they should, and raid his current home which they should immidietly. They were confused and made mistake. Little clues (like watch, boots, walking, knifes etc) were too weak to accuse him right there but they should put him under arrest and treat as suspect because they had hard testimony pointing to him - therefore confrontation was in order to assert the truth. If they got him under arrest and then show him to the survivor he would recognize him making it 2nd witness + evidence in house + little clues = accusation of murder. Then jurry. Then Guilty = electric chair. Case closed. Instead they wasted time, given him heads up and only later raided his trailer when he already cleaned after himself. Poof opportunity lost.
ALA probably DID commit "something" (either implicated in the Santa Rosa hitchhiker murders or some other crimes ) and his duper's delight was shining bright knowing that the police was after him BUT not for what he probably had done... but for something he didn't lmao
The part where Arthur Lee Allen mentions he told all this to the other officer and that he had told him that he had gone to salt point that weekend to skin dive was salt point at Lake Berryessa? If so it seems incredible that he is admitting to an officer he had been there at the Lake and met a couple and that he was alone. If this guy really is the zodiac it seems he's not very good at speaking in a way skillfully so that one wouldn't suspect that it was him. It seems Arthur Lee Allen is burning himself with his own speech.
@@DannyTanimoto wow. Thanks for that. That's really interesting to know. I thought for a long time that he was the zodiac. Hopefully one day the mystery will be solved
August 4th 1971, this is a little under 5 months before a letter was sent from Zodiac on 3/13/1971 Arthur Leigh Allen is stopped in San Francisco for a traffic violation 3/13/1971. THAT SAME DAY a letter is sent from a mile away in Pleasanton, CA and not to the Chronicle but to the LA Times, that same day 3/13/1971 first time ever, last time ever. Hummmmm?
I doubt Arthur Leigh Allen was Zodiac. He certainly does not look like the guy in the police sketches. I also doubt he was smart enough to create the ciphers.
Leigh says “I look forward to the day where police officers are no longer referred to as pigs” because in The Most Dangerous Game, the main character hunted only humans because man is the most dangerous animal of all
