These men when they get together are by far the best conversationalists going in this space. Very little ego, a lot of listening and sharing deep insight with a child like excitement. Amazing
@@k.l.9334 As someone who used to watch a lot more of JP and still has a lot of respect for him, I unfortunately must agree with this. There were many times in this conversation that jonathan was in the process of laying up an interesting point when JP interrupts with an addendum that derails what Pageau was about to say. I still enjoyed this convo, but I wish that JP would just let his friend talk a little more.
Awesome to see when JP sits with someone who can continuously explore deep ideas with him to extract profound wisdom out of ancient scripture. "and said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven" Matthew 18:3-5
I found Pageau in a Peterson Video. Now I follow Pageau more closely than Peterson. He really has helped me see the world with the collective wisdom of thousand-year traditions.
He was one of the people (along with Peterson himself, C.S Lewis, Dostoyevsky and others) that lead to me converting to Orthodox Christianity along with my wife and kids. I'll be forever Grateful ❤️
I think God has given wisdom to these two men, Dr. Jordan Peterson and Jonathan Pageau. I could listen to them all day long. This conversation about writing fairytales has just lit my brain on fire! I love it! I’m going to try and write one myself! Seriously….😊
I would give everything I own for a friendship like theirs. To be able to sit down for 2 hours and talk about the deeper meaning and hidden theology of traditional stories is not something you can do with very many people. I love these discussions. Thank you for taking us along with you on the journey.
My thinking is very much along the same line as yours. Now that we know the height of the bar, what say we go about and find such friendships of our own.
Oh my. The comments Jonathan made about Snow White being forced into hyper awareness of her own beauty instantly led me to understand a lot of things about someone. It became a tool that not only brought harm to her, but eventually one that she used to harm herself. And underlying is still innocence and confusion. It's been a sad situation. Thank you both for the insights.
Yeah, as soon as they pointed out the stories as being a sort of metaphor for puberty and how the gifts from the witch were meant to make Snow White self-conscious, everything really started clicking into place, because when else would be the point that girls start becoming the most self-conscious and hyper-fixated on their appearance? Though I think one part that they missed is that the dawning of that self-consciousness during puberty may not necessarily result in narcissism and weaponization of beauty, but may actually result in the opposite and cause excessive self-criticism and a hyper-fixation on self-perceived flaws. For many girls, I think they actually experience both at the same time, as paradoxical as it sounds. Either way, it's still damaging, and the witch still wins in the end.
Yes, I experienced both. And the devil came alive; constant comments from males was both exciting and terrifying. I stayed modest. I understand now what it means that covering your hair guarantees communion with God.
Such interesting Points to VIEW. From another Angle - it is interesting and worthy of note another common theme in these "fairy tales". All of the helpless innocent need RESCUING. Without the rescue they die or are abused and remain so. They are hidden away and even when searched out denied. The first theme of this is King David - sent to "sort the sheep out" as the lowest when they were searching for the boy who would be King. He was too small insignificant and worthless compared to his 11 other brothers, who considered themselves better "King" material compared; acting the part of more worthy of the role; they put themselves out on show when the "Kings Messenger" came to call. Without David. Also interesting to pay attention to, is the fact that it was ONLY THE DILIGENCE of the messenger that noticed by COUNTING their were only 11 brothers and sort after them fetching the 12th - David who just so happened to be "sent out of the way" at the time of the expected visit (like Cinderella and the slipper fitting ) and was shepherding at the time none the wiser. If the messenger had not counted the men to 12, no one would ever have known one was missing when he added them up to only 11. "Where is the other"? He asked valiantly. Knowing that they knew there was "another" they had to fetch David. No one notices that either. Beauty and the Beast. A story about the man finding the Hero within and taming the Beast within by being shown who he actually WAS in the mirror to start with; pretty much an animal in behaviour of the lowest nature. Slamming doors in ladies faces doesn't always bode well....proves your heartless I guess. Even to themselves. Cinderella. Had to be searched for as he UGLY SISTERS pretty much abused her behind closed doors and hid her away as well. When the "slipper didn't fit" they still lied she even existed. Smirking. Interesting to note the insistent messenger can sometimes be the "Saviour". But that is usually the "starring role" that is the twist in the tale as it is a tale of "for the want of a NAIL" in most "stories". No one notices or pays attention to the "little players" only the stage crashers. The strange other "fairy stories" like Goldilocks are odd as well as one has to ask what sort of girl breaks into bears off grid homesteads, eats their food and has a little sleep afterwards in their beds. She sounds like a spoilt little madam. Very odd and no one seems sure what the moral of THAT is. Leave Bears Alone probably and do not take their stuff. Not all Bears are Friendly.
@@acw7120 The Three Bears when i thought about it as a child was dont go into other peoples houses they could be Bears. Even Bears like variety they had three chooses available. You should try variations to find what you like. She was stupid sleeping in the house so dont be stupid and get out if you do go doing naughty stuff. i thought it was quite informative.
Dr. Peterson, I know it's been a while but I am delighted to see you back to your normal self. I was worried you wouldn't ever be the same after your health problems. But it's a miracle to have you back in great shape and I am glad you are back and you are doing a lot of things to further your message and your very positive influence for good and I we are blessed to live in the version of this world where you are still among us and doing what you are doing. I can't imagine anyone else being up to the task in quite the same way. The time you were gone from RU-vid was a kind of dull and hopeless time, but I am glad that has come to an end and you are making such vibrant and inspiring content. Keep it up, you don't know how much we need you still and I am looking forward to all the great things you are yet to do. Thank you for your wonderful work.
As a child I was forever reading books. My aunt gave me an illustrated book of russian folklore stories and they were amazing. Full of adventure,darkness and lessons to be had abundant.
There's a growing number of animated Russian movies as well, ranging from Soviet to modern Russian animation as well. They tend to focus on Russian folk tales. I can also recommend Soviet fantasy and sci-fi, going back to the black and white era of filmmaking.
7M subscribers!!! Congrats Jordan! You feel like a mentor and second father to me ❤ I felt lost before I found you. My father passed away in 2009. He would have loved you!
From Jonathan: Thanks for this great conversation, Jordan. For those who want to support our Snow White project: www.kickstarter.com/projects/symbolicworldpress/snow-white-and-the-widow-queen
I like to listen to the conversations with Johnathan and Jordan because they respect each other's opinions and the conversation seems to flow, not be dominated by one side. 😊
If you want to go deeper spiritual realities from a Christian perspective you should look up Supernatural and Unseen Realm by Dr Michael Heiser, there are books and lectures on RU-vid available.
"If you want your children to be intelligent, read them fairytales. If you want them to be more intelligent, read them more fairytales." -attributed to Albert Einstein
The pain the mother feels while separated from her baby should be listened too. I am not convinced that you can be a role model for such a small child while being absent. All the baby knows is that you are leaving him. The love and attention from a mother cannot be replaced by a caregiver.
Take Jonathan’s path. Talking and learning about these abstract topics are fine, but we all need to be building something out of it if we want to rejuvenate the culture.
When I was 5 yrs old one of my favorite times was when my mom read me the fairy tales. I have an image of the book --- something like The TenGren Book of Fairy Tales. A largish book with a brownish hard cover. The stories to me at 5 were mysterious and satisfying. I hated for her to stop reading. It made me want to read on my own. I still remember the moment in 1st grade when I realized, "I know all the sounds so now I can sound out any word so now I can read anything by myself." Been a reader ever since, realizing more and more meanings.
This is the first sharp disagreement I’ve had with Peterson. A child of 1 does not ‘need’ to see his mother leave him to go to work. This is not the proper view. A child of 1 is still in primary need of his biological or actual mother for the bulk of his or her day. Anything else is, I think, a modern construct. And it is not in the optimal interest of the child or the mother, even if it ‘must be’ in our monetarily absurd world. Why else would it even come up in conversation?
So happy to hear that someone is fighting back against all this nonsense. My siblings and I loved our Aesop and Grimms fairy tales. Thank you, Johnathan Pageau.
Dr Peterson. I am an out of work, 47 year-old animator, who has found great utility and meaning in your work. I would love to work on your feature if you are looking to assemble a production crew.
This was one of my favorite interviews. I'm obsessed with fairy tales and it's role in the development of the mind of children. ❤️❤️❤️❤️. Love from Bolivia 🇧🇴
This was a truely beautiful, captivating and amazing discussion on fairy tales. While I currently also really enjoy the Exodus discussion, I would be very much interested to hear a similar conversation between Dr Peterson and other experts on these old European fairy tales, their similarities, differences, and meanings. For a bit of background, I grew up in Germany with the original Grimms Märchen (also Struwwelpeter, but that is a story for another time) and have been a big fan ever since I heard and read them over and over again as a small child. From a very young age, I was intrigued to learn more about these wonderful and formative stories and have always been disappointed by "kids-friendly versions" I saw in more modern books, on TV, or in movies. The Grimms' versions are, in fact, already sometimes tuned down from older, more gruesome stories - in my opinion they don't need more taming. I have to add that I myself do not have any formal knowledge or training in literature, however, I think it is interesting and important to see these fairytales in light of history and older versions of the same or similar stories. Though the brothers Grimm are famous for writing down the versions at the time in German, there have, of course, been previous, very similar versions of the same stories by Basile, Perrault, and others, reaching far back to stories on Zeus and probably even longer. Regarding "Dornröschen" aka "sleeping beauty", it is correct to say that in the Grimms version, the princess awakes by the kiss of the prince at the right time (as many others have died before in the rose bushes), however, in an earlier Italian version called "Sun, Moon, and Talia" in the "Pentamerone" by Basile, the prince comes across the sleeping beauty, is not able to wake her but nevertheless proceeds to "gather the first fruits of love" which leaves her pregnant with twins. He leaves, she unconsciously gives birth to a boy and a girl, who then accidentally suck on her finger instead of her breast and thus remove the splinter, and the beauty wakes up. The (in this version already married) prince returns and admits to being the father of the kids and an even more gruesome story enfolds with the wife coming into the picture. In Perrault's version, the Prince's Mother is the one not fond of her son's wife and kids, which gives the story version yet another twist. In general, I think the many different possibilities of interpretations of the aspect of the long sleep in this fairy tale are extremely interesting, spreading from teenagers naturally being disconnected from their parents to the cycle of seasons from sleeping winter into sunkissed spring. In the "Rapunzel" story - in many aspects a similar story of a girl becoming a woman in circumstances where parent figures try to prevent early contact or shield her from it but fail - also Rapunzel was pregnant from her prince, and couldn't hide it any longer when her clothes didn't fit her anymore. Interestingly, the woman and mother figure hiding her in the tower is not actually her birth mother, but a sorceress. In the German as well as the earlier Italian version of "Rapunzel" called "Petrosinella" by Basile, the mother of Rapunzel craves iron-rich food such as parsley (giving the name "Petrosinella" in the Italian version) or rapunzel (a salad green / root vegetable) during her pregnancy. The sorceress catches the thieves (sometimes the pregnant mother herself, sometimes her husband who can't resist his wife's cravings) trying to steal these plants from her garden and demands the unborn child in return. Interestingly, it is again not the prince who saves the princess. The sorceress sends Rapunzel and her twins into the desert/wilderness and tricks the prince, who, in shock, falls from the tower into the thorn bushes and becomes blind. However, after wandering around blind for years, eventually, he recognizes his Rapunzel by her voice and her tears heal his blindness. Anyway, these are my two cents. I am sure Mr. Pageau has himself looked into these heavily connected earlier versions of these powerful stories during his journey of creating his own versions of these and other fairy tales. I am very much looking forward to his work, and I thank Dr Peterson dearly for bringing this topic to my attention again.
I truly LOVE Jordan's ARC idea. I've really had issues with all these podcasts and channels TALKING about all the problems in the world and division, but nobody is DOING anything about it, except Mr. Peterson. Go man, GO!
Plenty of people are doing something, it's just their efforts are fragmented and scattered, and usually low key. They lack the hype marketing machine that major studios have.
One of the adult things I model to my children is that serious, intelligent, adult women are seriously and meaningfully employed in the raising and educating of their own children, and the care of a household and extended networks of family and friends. Getting a paycheck isn't the only way to model real adult work.
I'm excited to read Jonathan's re-interpretations of the fairytales. I'm wondering if Jonathan has spent much time with the fairytales written by George MacDonald, some of which are re-writes, some invented. George was very influential to Lewis and Tolkein, packs an immense amount of meaning, and seems to have a good grasp on a lot of the historical elements. It would be interesting to hear Jonathan's take on them.
What's funny is, I saw a video from Johnathan first. I went to look for it but couldn't remember his name and I ended up accidentally finding Jordan and listening to him. Both great thinkers
I’m disappointed to hear JP pushing for his dil to go to work and leave a 1 year old. Why do we push this early separation and others raising children? It’s everything wrong with our society. Children should be raised by mothers not strangers
You’ve never heard of a child needing to learn to self soothe have you? One could argue that you’re a helicopter parent and are what’s wrong with society not letting a child fail or feel separation.
@@michaelkendall1263 your mother is calling… She says to “get to the choppa” is all worried about your tummy, ready to lather you up with sunscreen and wipe your bum. You have no idea what you’re talking about. Yes 1 year olds can learn to self sooth. Your mom must’ve not defined temperament for you or Pavlovian pathways or anything about neuroscience. One year olds are learning what they can, cannot do and what they can get away with. If every time a child cries a parent comes running we will see the adult children that is saturating social media today as they whimper about the non-extensional threat of the Sun that’s going to supernova in 20 billion years.
On a side note, I really like Heather; she seems like an positively delightful and charming woman, and her work is admirable. Glad you're working with her, Jonathan! I have high hopes for the final project!
One of C. S. Lewis's arguments for believing in the Incarnation, is the idea of a lost chapter found of a story. Does the newly found chapter add to the story? Is the story understood better? When we look at Christ - a figure like no other figure in literature - the whole story of human history, which truly is His Story, suddenly makes sense.
Do you really believe human wisdom will help? Do you really still think human wisdom will help? The question has long since answered itself. The problem of the "modern age" (also known as the end times) is the rampant godlessness. And this is not a thought, but fact and truth. Add.: Here we are not talking about religion, but about truth (which has suffered a lot through religion and through misrepresentation, but that is normal in the world of lies).
@@germanchris4440 1.yes 2.yes 3. It hasn't. Man's ascension is directly about human wisdom, I.E. Man becomes more divine. And saying 'modern times' means 'end times' is incorrect per se. So you are no doubt in accordance with a man-made story regards these times.
This past semester I took a Literature course and we studied “The Classic Fairytales,” published by Norton and edited by Maria Tatar. First the book presents you with the original versions of the story, usually by Grimm or Charles Perrault, then it presents you with the ever evolving versions. Once the story is over modernized I realized that it ended being a completely different story, the ultimate themes and meanings became exactly the opposite of the originals. I thought, it would simply be better to write their own fairytales instead, but the books major motivation seemed to be, to replace and eradicate the original story, mainly due to bringing down the patriarchy and positioning women above men, sex above purity, deception and seduction above virtue, and ultimately matriarchy above patriarchy.
I would be interested to know how "original" the ones were you're talking about at the beginning. I have a book "the complete fairytales of the brothers Grimm" and although they don't contain much violence and no rape, incest and such, they seem pretty original. I worry that they have already missed a lot of the plot? What do you think?
@@Joraelfa You have to remember the brothers compiled and changed fables that had been around for 100's of years and even during their lifetime they modified them from edition to edition. Even with Snow White there is evidence that the story originates all the way back to Ovid's Metamorphius. Hansel and Gretel has origins back to other stories as early as the 13th century that were popular in eastern Europe were children outwitting ogres and trolls. They didn't write the original story but definitely is a wonderful collection of fables and stories.
@@johnbaker6125 yes I am aware they just "collected" the stories but I like imagining the version I have is fairly close to what had been going around during their life time. Of course they would have heard different versions of the same story depending on region or even just from person to person. So it will impossible to know for sure. I do realize they contained WAY more gore and the ones I have aren't all happy and clappy at all. I would love to know more of the meaning behind all of them. Just don't know where to find that. I'm certainly not clever enough for deciphering it myself.
@@johnbaker6125 also.... Just a question really. What do you mean by "evidence it originates from Ovid's Metamorphius" It might just be inspired, doesn't mean it isn't the original. Right?
@@Joraelfa I think it is more about a long oral history that stories and themes travel through time verbally from one generation to the next. We've shared stories among ourselves for 1000's of years before the written word. The brothers believed that a national identity resided in the history and stories of the common people and those were all tales that had been handed down over time in the German lands. Many of the stories existed all over Europe in various forms and probably dated back millenia in various forms.
When Jonathan mentioned off hand something about ‘a source he finds credible relating the Old Testament story of Sampson, as closest to the story of Christ’.. It struck me, creating a deep resonance and remembering, as well as confirmation. @Jordan B Peterson @Jonathan Pageau Much love and gratitude for you, and for everything you do. 🙏🏻 While this little comment may be the first time I have been moved to reach out to either of you, in any form.. I hope to meet you both, and greatly look forward to the meeting. God willing, and God speed, of course. 🫀🧞🧠💪🏻
It’s a breath of fresh air listening to you and Jonathan. I miss the old you before you joined DW. Anyway, this was a wonderful delight. Love the authentic easy going flow in conversation amongst two friends. Thank you both. ✝️❤️🌻
@@AFringedGentian We all want Jordan to be healthy and at his best. In my humble opinion I saw more passion in him before he joined the DW. It has nothing to do with nostalgia. I have nothing against the DW and was actually a member because of Jordan. My busy schedule doesn’t allow for time on DW. Jordan is a brilliant and beautiful caring human. I have nothing but respect, love, and admiration for him. ✝️🌻
"Why is Bilbo a thief?" I've heard it mentioned that The Hobbit is basically a telling of King Beowulf's Passing (Beowulf and the Dragon) from the point of view of one of Beowulf's companions, who steals a cup which awakens the dragon.
Sleeping Beauty was always my favourite fairy tale and disney film. The meaning of it was always elusive to me though. I always thought perhaps it had to do with integrating the shadow, the darker side of the feminine with the good. When the king and queen don't invite Maleficent to Sleeping Beauty/Aurora's christening, she arrives anyway and creates much more harm than she otherwise would have. Then they hide Aurora away in the woods, which also does nothing to save her from her inevitable fate. I'm rambling a bit but I've always wondered if it was a commentary on sheltering, enforcing only the good, and not allowing room for the female child to integrate their shadow. What made me wonder this was the fact that in the Disney version Maleficent and Aurora actually have similar facial features.
Chesterton wrote in his chapter Ethics of Elfland: "There is the terrible allegory of the “Sleeping Beauty,” which tells how the human creature was blessed with all birthday gifts, yet cursed with death; and how death also may perhaps be softened to a sleep."
@@cedes017 wow that's beautiful. I love that idea. Perhaps it could tie into the idea of parents having difficulty accepting the inevitable tragedy and death of their children.
@@schoe2164 true, there are many different versions. I am most familiar with the Disney one and the one from the book of fairytales I had as a child, which was very close to the Disney one.
As a girl who went through teen years, I would say.. The witch offered "beautifying things" to Snow White because she knows that as a teen girl living with dwarfs, the girl will want something feminine, something she does not have access to in her current environment. I would say the apple bite represents Snow White taking the risk of trusting a stranger (something the dwarfs wanted her about, but as the child she is curiosity is stronger than poorly understood warnings). It's a very useful element for parents to tell young kids "You see why I tell you not to accept gifts from strangers?". Clasics are useful, there is beauty but 'useful beauty' in a story makes it continue for generations. The magic mirror represents the window of reality the witch gets. Totally framed by her own mind full of insecurity and ego
❤❤❤ Jonathan and his place on the Genesis and Exodus series' was absolutely amazing. His ability to put words to art and visa versa. Just great content! Thanks!! So excited for his upcoming projects!! Love the early era so much.❤️❤️❤️
Yes, the devil doesn’t have his own clay. He can only twist and mutilate God’s good works. But one of the messages of the incarnation, crucifixion, and resurrection is that the good/true/beautiful cannot be defiled or destroyed. It will always come back from any attempt to destroy it, in overwhelming glory
Why is Peterson having his daughter in-law work at his company when she has very young children? I really did not like that he said that. Fathers model work outside.. mothers take care of the family, which is a mountain of work.
Jordan's conversations with Jonathan are at another level. The subjects discussed almost don't matter. Great pleasure may be derived from listening (and watching) two friends in deep, animated and enthusiastic discussion. Thank you gentlemen.
Thank you both for this conversation. It was very helpful. No matter what the topic is I find that Pageau always has interesting takes and such a clarity of thought.
Fairytale and myth have captured my imagination since babyhood. Even before I could understand all the words, the sound of Mother vocalizing the sentence patterns of story, simultaneously comforted and excited me. This conversation, I feel, is not only interesting, but fundamentally important.
Wow, the mirror / cellphone stuff hit home. As a 54 year old man, whose desire is to compete against young, strong, effective men, I often get caught up in the world of comparison. I was blown away by the "capitalist machine giving us what we want, and also WHAT WE HATE..." wow. I need to really soak in these ideas.
Harmonious beautiful discussion. When the two of you meet to share your views you always leave me wanting for the discussions to never stop. I am in my Mid-50s, and you have now awakened my childhood memories as these are some of the stories l had to read over and over to improve my English. At least l can now re-read those Fairy Stories with a different mindset.
thank you jonathan, it has been great to rediscover the classics with new insights into symbology, snow white and the seven dwarves, jack and the bean stalk, genie and the lamp etc.
I always enjoy the conversations with Jonathan. Two brilliant minds. The writing part has helped me ion my retirement to not only stay busy and keep my mind active, but to also take control of the "society inside the story" in a way that you want it to be, not what we see going on today. I am now into chapter 7 of a Spiritual Fiction story about our current events and what if GOD has had enough of all this nonsense and actually said, "No more", and does something before the 2nd Coming, as Revelation shows. If we just keep listening to the news it will make you wonder where is this all headed in a very bad way.
This hit home. It is very similar to what I am trying to create with the video game I am making. It is a malleable foundational story in the hands of the player, directly inspired by the classic hero's journey, world mythology, fairy tales and folklore in a fantasy medieval setting. I believe the medium has exceptional capabilities compared to other ways of telling stories, as the end user will be an active participant and can influence the story, compared to being a passive recipient. Thanks for this, definitely some inspiration for me to draw on from here. I need to watch Jason and the Argonauts, for one.
With each change, you are capable of intergrating and expanding. Which God uses to fill in the gaps. For me, it's remembering my child hood attitude and can integrate with my adult self! Thanks for letting the pieces fall into place!
I found the companion book to the old Joseph Campbell Bill Moyer's series Power of Myth. I am always going over it. It's wonderful. We need this - thank you
Thanks for this unusual and interesting discussion. Very stimulating, as are all of Dr Peterson's interviews. i hope Jonathan's project goes well and that the ARC will grow from strength to strength.
I’m reminded of Season 10, Episode 6 of Criminal Minds where Spencer explains the actual function of these fairy tales: the original stories of Snow White, Sleeping Beauty etc were very gruesome to let children safely confront their darkest fears. I suspect horror movies and stories function in a similar way.
Good evening Jordan and Jonathan I continue to follow your works and have done for a few years now. Gained so much from your shared knowledge and creativity. FOREVER Grateful.😀 Loving this specific discussion, would love to finally give up my eighteen year nurse career and be part of something as wonderful and meaningful as re writing our fairytale forever after stories. This for me would be my families 'Happy ever afrer ending'! Too. Time to shift direction and indeed momentum. If you ever require a Mental Health Addiction lead on your team.😇 Thankyou. 💜
14:00 that’s a careless rationalization to justify the sad reality of undue separation between mother and children. Why not listen to her instincts and be the best mother she could be? What is it that she’s doing now that she can’t do later? It’s not like she’s struggling financially and has to work. Time with those 1 and 3 year olds will fly. She’ll regret it later and wish she could take care of them instead of working to model adult life to them. I’m surprised Jordan Peterson isn’t advising his own daughter better.
Brilliant conversion. Love the idea of a new way of story telling. I bought a new set of The Hobbit/The Lord of the Rings for our granddaughter. We started reading the The Hobbit together; different than our daughter reading them on her own, at a slightly older age. Turns out she like us doing this together, so we're only reading this book here at our home. My granddaughter reads a couple of pages and then I will and switch again. We pause constantly to talk about a character, or a setting, or a piece of language, or question. It's the same story everyone else has already read, but it's different now, slowing the pace down and beating up any verse worth the effort -- it's great. Of course at this pace our granddaughter could be in university before we get through the book, and that's just a fine way to spend time with her.
